: Well, changed the oil....



VinnyT
10-29-05, 03:34 PM
7.5 quarts!!!:holycrap: HOLY SH!T. This is why it pays to read the manual!!!!:helpless: I used Penzoil Platinum fully synthetic. I was going to do my financee's Explorer, and that takes 6 quarts! Oy vey. V

MUGSANDLUKE
10-29-05, 04:25 PM
:banghead: Just think! You will probably be burning some of that synthetic oil every time you drive since the N* seems to love oil consumption. Be sure to check the oil once a week. See the other forum discussions and the archive if you are not up to date on the oil consumption discussions and WOT recommendations.
Good Luck and pedal down!

VinnyT
10-29-05, 05:06 PM
Two oil changes, 14 quarts of oil @ 4.98 a quart!:annoyed: Two oil filters @ 5.98 each, a six pack and now two happy vehicles. WOT, here I come!!

Ranger
10-29-05, 07:45 PM
Keep in mind that $5/qt synthetic is not needed. Conventional dino oil at $1 - $1.50/qt is what is spec'd by the GM.

VinnyT
10-30-05, 07:41 AM
The "regular" oil here is now $2.50 a quart, so I decided to spring for the synthetic.

Dadillac
10-30-05, 06:44 PM
The "regular" oil here is now $2.50 a quart, so I decided to spring for the synthetic.
Not at WalMart. You can get a 5 quart jug of dino oil, for $7 - $8.00. Unless you drive in extreme heat (above 100 degrees), or in extreme cold (below 0 degrees) constantly, there is zero benefit with synthetic oil. Save your money, and use conventional oil.

Don

thu
10-30-05, 07:08 PM
Two oil changes, 14 quarts of oil @ 4.98 a quart!:annoyed: Two oil filters @ 5.98 each, a six pack and now two happy vehicles. WOT, here I come!!

You can buy a 5 gallon jug of Mobil 1 at Wally World for $20 and change. That's a bit more than $4 a quart.

Ranger
10-30-05, 08:36 PM
Wallyworld has a 5 qt jug of Supertech for about $5.

davesdeville
10-31-05, 01:23 AM
Heck with all of that, I just wait for a coupon from one of the parts stores. I got a case (12qt) of valvoline for 69c a quart last oil change I did.

VinnyT
10-31-05, 06:24 AM
Argh. I hate Sprawl-Mart! I guess I'll try them out next time.

mcowden
10-31-05, 11:20 AM
7.5 quarts!!!:holycrap: HOLY SH!T. This is why it pays to read the manual!!!!:helpless: I used Penzoil Platinum fully synthetic. I was going to do my financee's Explorer, and that takes 6 quarts! Oy vey. V

You can use $8.00 a quart oil if you want, and it means nothing with a crappy filter. Best bang for your buck seems to be using a high-quality conventional oil at $1.xx a quart or whatever's on sale, and using a high-quality filter like a Purolator PureONE or Premium Plus, Wix, AC-Delco, or Mobil1. They flow better, are constructed better, and filter better than cheap filters, and almost anything is better than a Fram. Filters are inexpensive, and even a great one like a Purolator PureONE is still only a $5 or $6 part as opposed to a $3 one. Money well spent on filters, but I still don't see any benefits from synthetics.

powerglide
10-31-05, 01:38 PM
Costo!

auroradude
10-31-05, 08:44 PM
I dont see how you people above said that "synthetic does nothing unless severly cold or blazing hot like Arizona summers". That is entirely false. Conventional oils break down and leave sludge deposits after even 1,500 miles sometimes. Especially with a lot of WOT usage. I use Mobil 1 10w-30 synthetic in my 4.0 northstar. It uses a lot of it, or,erm, leaks it out; but it will do taht with any oil i put in it. It seems a lot smoother running in the cold mornings in PA.

Do what you want, but I would run synthetic in the northstars especially with the chains, they whip the **** out of oil.

powerglide
10-31-05, 09:07 PM
...........and here we go again!

:hide:

Ranger
10-31-05, 09:09 PM
You are terribly misinformed.

The chains don't whip anything. Besides oil have an anti foaming agent in them. As for sludge, I stuck a bore scope in my cam cover at 100K, no sludge. I pulled the oil pan off my wifes '96 Bonneville to replace a gasket at 115K, no sludge.

Start ups below -20 or pulling a trailer across Death Valley is exactly where synthetics are superior to conventional oil. It sounds like you have fallen victim to the synthetic marketing gurus. Use it if you like, but know the facts. Synthetic oil is not superior for the type of driving you and I are doing. It is superior in very very frigid weather and will stand up to much higher tempuratures than conventional oil. Hotter than your engine will ever see (hopefully). Your engine will not out last mine. It is not cleaner than mine. It will not run better than mine. Your wallet however, will be a little lighter than mine.

mcowden
10-31-05, 09:13 PM
I dont see how you people above said that "synthetic does nothing unless severly cold or blazing hot like Arizona summers". That is entirely false. Conventional oils break down and leave sludge deposits after even 1,500 miles sometimes. Especially with a lot of WOT usage. I use Mobil 1 10w-30 synthetic in my 4.0 northstar. It uses a lot of it, or,erm, leaks it out; but it will do taht with any oil i put in it. It seems a lot smoother running in the cold mornings in PA.

Do what you want, but I would run synthetic in the northstars especially with the chains, they whip the **** out of oil.

LOL... Please provide some evidence of your claims. If conventional oil breaks down and leaves sludge deposits, and if the chains whip the **** out of oil, how come nobody has come forth with any problems attributed to these issues??? There is no evidence to back up anything you're saying. :suspect:

Furthermore, you admit that the engine uses or leaks oil, and the only benefit you cited is smoother running on cold mornings. If there's no evidence of any problems with conventional motor oil, and if Cadillac does not recommend using synthetics except in the VVT engines, exactly how is this worth the extra $15-$30 per oil change? How are you getting a return on that investment? Maybe they haven't covered this in your economics class yet, but you can't believe what the marketing people tell you. Spend your money however you want, but if you want to make claims like that, at least show us the facts!

auroradude
10-31-05, 11:28 PM
Marketing does very little to influence my purchases. I have a Northstar mechanic that was part of the design crew for the Northstar project back in 1992 and 1993. He has a ton of cut away posters, books, training manuals and everything and they specifically explain sludge and stuff in there. They say to use regular convetional oil, but he explained some stuff about synthetics.

I am not an oil nerd, just know some things about them. Years ago all i knew that changing it was good and that all oils were the same. You can say that any "$1.99" a quart oil which is probably Type II is better than a hydrocracked type-III or Type-IV PAO based? Why i think not. There is a significant difference in quality between these three. The tons of detergent agents in Mobil 1 EP help a LOT. Viscosity in a fully synthetic engine oil (Mobil 1) doesnt shear down nearly as fast as conventional oil either. Some companies like Valvoline and Castrol say their synthetics are "full synthetics" when they are actually just a type III hydrocracked mineral base. The type IV PAO based formulas like Mobil 1 and other racing oils are the real deal.

Look at a Mobil 1 engine that has been run synthetic from the factory against that of a Pennzoil engine when both are tore down, you will see a difference past the 100k mile marker.

Ranger
11-01-05, 12:11 AM
Then how do you explain a 115K oil pan pulled and absolutely NO "SLUDGE AND STUFF" in the pan. "The proof is in the pudding" or lack there of. No one is trying to disway you in what you choose to use, but when we post something that is incorrect we can expect to be corrected. Been there, done that. All we are saying is that synthetic is not neccassary. Your engine will not live longer or run better with it. If it makes you feel better, by all means use it.

auroradude
11-01-05, 12:34 AM
No it is not necessary and does not exactly mean it will last longer. Just will run with more AW/EP (AntiWear / Extreme Protection) additive packages and just overall run cleaner I think.

You said that was a 3800 engine you pulled the oil pan in correct? 2 totally different engines here, but all in all same basis. So let me see. What kind of OCI's are we talking here? 3,000 mile religiously? No rediculously short trips in bone chilling weather? If its 95% highway miles that very well may be so. But the severe service most people dont realize that they do all the time is a different story. Im talking major I95 freeway everyday stop + go traffic jams in 90 degree weather in the summer, and 10 degree weather in the winter. That creeping along for 20 minutes places a lot of stress on engine oil, in a Northstar no less...as they run hot to begin with.

What does your filler hole look like on your Big Daddy N*? And does that thing have over 100k on the clock?

davesdeville
11-01-05, 06:03 AM
I dunno about his, but the filler hole and drain plug on my 108k N* are remarkably clean. Oil changed per the oil life monitor with always conventional, mostly 10w-30; this is including the time both previous owners used the car.

Ranger
11-01-05, 09:14 AM
As mentioned above, I just sold a '97 Deville with 107K on it. I stuck a bore scope in the cam cover because of another thread just like this where someone was adamant that it would be full of sludge. It was clean. Years ago I pulled an HT4100 apart to repair a head gasket. This was when oils DID sludge up. The lifter valley was cleaner than any trans pan I have ever seen. All of these cars used conventional oil. Northstar or 3800 is irrelavant. The basics of an internal combustion engine are the same, as you mentioned above, as is the formation of sludge. BTW, the 3800 is my wifes run to the store car. Not a lot of lengthy highway miles but well maintained. Stop and go traffic in -10 or 95 degrees is not as bad as the oil companies who are vying for your dollars would have you believe. The imprtant thing is to get the engine to operating tempurature and keep it there to burn off the condensation, something you are doing in stop and go traffic.

If you had been around here earlier, you'd have heard many a testimony from a former guru who is a GM powertrain engineer and was involved in the development and testing of the Northstar. He has said many times that the engines where put into taxi service (worst possible service by your standards) and pulled down after 250K using conventional motor oil (as spec'd by GM) and changed per the OLM. The engines were found to be clean with no wear. Infact, the original crosshatch hone pattern was still on the cylinder walls.

VinnyT
11-01-05, 09:37 AM
When I used synthetic on other vehicles of mine, I would change the oil at 4000 miles. I always found that the synthetic oil came out cleaner than conventional. That is the main reason for using it. However, since I found out that the N* uses 7.5 quarts, I may go back to conventional oil. With that much oil, it takes longer to degrade it as opposed to a 4 quart pan. V.

mcowden
11-01-05, 11:48 AM
When I used synthetic on other vehicles of mine, I would change the oil at 4000 miles. I always found that the synthetic oil came out cleaner than conventional. That is the main reason for using it. However, since I found out that the N* uses 7.5 quarts, I may go back to conventional oil. With that much oil, it takes longer to degrade it as opposed to a 4 quart pan. V.

Vinny, this is in direct contradiction to what auroradude is claiming. 4000 mile OCIs on synthetic is pretty far into the wasteful territory. Synthetics allegedly have "better and/or more detergents," and that would cause you to see DIRTIER oil, not cleaner oil. The color of the oil has absolutely nothing to do with its protection, lubrication, or friction-reducing properties whatsoever. If you want to see it for yourself, change your oil with conventional 10W-30 and a good filter and reset the oil life monitor. When the OLM says to change the oil, send it in for a Used Oil Analysis. I'm willing to bet you'll find that the oil comes back just fine with no evidence of sludging and with sufficient TBN value to show it's protecting your engine just fine. (TBN is a measure of its ability to protect against acids) The UOA will show you beyond the shadow of a doubt that it's perfectly fine and economically sensible to use plain old inexpensive conventional motor oil. It costs about $20-$40, but it's a good investment if you save that much on your next oil change anyway, and the peace of mind you get from it is worth more than that.

I have 97k on mine and I had one oil change with Amsoil because I had to try it, but other than that, it's been Havoline 10W-30 as far as I can remember right now. Under the oil cap it's clean as a whistle. No evidence of sludge, varnish, or any other residue whatsoever. I don't buy the sludge stuff for one second.

I think your "Northstar engineer" guy was an oil marketing rep or something because it sounds like he didn't know what he was talking about or was going off of outdated information about the bad old days of engine and oil design. It's just not that way anymore unless the engine is known to have problems with sludge like the Toyota 3.0L V-6s and several others. The Northstar isn't on the list, and there has been no evidence here at all that anybody has ever had an engine failure that was caused by insufficient lubrication or protective qualities from the engine oil. None. Not a single shred of evidence that synthetic buys you anything at all other than a warm fuzzy feeling. You can thank the marketing guys for that, but the oil has nothing to do with it.

If you want to help the Exxon CEO buy another vacation mansion, that's your business, and I'm not telling you it's bad to use synthetics. It just doesn't seem to serve any purpose but to make somebody else richer. Let's assume conventional oil is $1.50 a quart and synthetic is $4.00 a quart. Over the course of 100k miles, there have theoretically been at least 13 oil changes on the car, assuming 7500 mile oil changes and 7.5 quarts each time. If conventional oil was used, that amounts to $150. The same thing with synthetic costs $400. Did you get $250 more gas mileage, performance, or longevity out of the engine? There's no evidence of any savings at all unless you extend the oil change interval far beyond 7500 miles.

VinnyT
11-01-05, 12:13 PM
Okay, fine, I'll use conventional. Whatever makes everyone happy....These posts I make are my opinions and/or observations from what I used in the past. I don't care about tests, anyone making 100 billion profit off whatever the hell oil/gas is produced. I never thought the post would cause this much heated debate.:annoyed: Very silly. I won't use WalMart Supertech or whatever junk they have. I'll stay with a name brand and a good filter. Done. Can we please close this thread now? Is has gotten a little too crazy. V.

mcowden
11-01-05, 12:17 PM
Okay, fine, I'll use conventional. Whatever makes everyone happy....These posts I make are my opinions and/or observations from what I used in the past. I don't care about tests, anyone making 100 billion profit off whatever the hell oil/gas is produced. I never thought the post would cause this much heated debate.:annoyed: Very silly. I won't use WalMart Supertech or whatever junk they have. I'll stay with a name brand and a good filter. Done. Can we please close this thread now? Is has gotten a little too crazy. V.

Done.

Ranger
11-01-05, 08:43 PM
Vinney,
Just a few last thoughts, please.

1. Keep in mind, whatever oil you choose to use, the Northstar uses oil and everytime you add a qt, you fortify the oil in the sump.

2. There was a thread not long ago (probably about oil) where Supertech was reported to be one of the better oils. It is simply not advertized like the other so don't arbitrarlily write it off as "junk".

3. Just the mention of oil on one of these sites will start an oil war. This one is just a skirmish. ;)

Happy motoring!