: Ultra View Should Be Laminated !!!



syrob@MSN.COM
09-26-05, 02:47 PM
Thinking about the issues with the roof that some have had got me thinking... Ultra View Should Be Laminated !!!

NOT tempered like side windows !

Why ??

1.) Much more occupant safety in a rollover or when outside objects hit. Laminated could help keep you inside and outside objects on the outside...

2.) Spontaneous fractures would be rarer or better controlled, crack in glass vs. zillions of broken pieces raining on your head.

3.) Any other ideas ??

SYROB

miked
09-26-05, 04:02 PM
I think laminated glass is quieter, too? One thing I've noticed with the Ultraview is that when it rains, you can really hear it.

syrob@MSN.COM
09-26-05, 04:18 PM
I think laminated glass is quieter, too? One thing I've noticed with the Ultraview is that when it rains, you can really hear it.

Good point..

I think laminated side glass windows is an option on some Ultra lux models from Lexus and MB...


SYROB

Xadion
09-26-05, 07:06 PM
I wonder if you could get the hurricane proof 3m film, tinted or not installed on it...that stuff works and as you said with the little thin layer of, what is basicly rubber it quiets the rain etc- it will also protect from random chips etc...the stuffs $$ but I am sure its cheeper to get laminate taken off and back on vs replacement

good idea

Kipp
09-27-05, 01:46 AM
I said this in the first thread about the sunroof shattering, but thinking about it, how heavy would that piece be then if it were to fall??

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Henry01...Sorry to hear about the bad news and I hope everyone is ok. But I still think it was struck by an object and did not "explode". Maybe they can affix a clear sticker like the one on headlamps that are used to prevent chipping, this way it wouldnt shower down.

DG2
09-27-05, 11:21 AM
I am going to be keeping the sun shade closed all the time until I learn more about this investgation.

syrob@MSN.COM
09-27-05, 10:44 PM
Tempered Glass Breakage (about lights but maybe also appliers to this roof)

1. There is frequently a misconception that tempered glass is "unbreakable" or "nearly unbreakable". This is NOT true. Tempered glass is definitely breakable and many of the things that can break annealed glass can also break tempered glass.

2. Fully tempered glass as supplied for shower door, patio doors, etc., is four to five times as strong as annealed glass of the same type and thickness and can meet CPSC break-safe requirements for Category I or II safety glazing.

3. Fully tempered glass, when broken, fractures into hundreds of small particles. This is by design and is excellent proof of a well tempered product, not of a defective product. It is this fail-safe characteristic of tempered glass that makes it an excellent product for safety glazing applications.

4. Breakage of annealed glass is usually a simple one or two line fracture attracting little attention or comment (unless the glass has been smashed by a severe impact). Cracked lights of annealed glass have been seen by most everyone a number of times and cause no great surprise. Conversely, breakage of fully tempered glass is spectacular, infrequently seen or experienced by the public, and attracts considerable surprise, attention, comment, and question.

5. Annealed glass is easily broken by mechanical stress, impact, and moderate thermal stress. Fully tempered glass will withstand much greater stresses than annealed glass before failure. However, it is the nature of fully tempered glass that it CANNOT break in the simple fashion of annealed glass but the entire light must "release" completely into small fragments even for a very small initial fracture.

6. Another characteristic of tempered glass is that occasionally a light will not release immediately at the time of damage, but at sometime, perhaps many weeks, later. This adds to the surprise and amazement of by-standers since no apparent cause is immediately evident. This type of behavior is one of the factors leading to the so called "spontaneous or delayed breakage" of tempered glass.

7. Spontaneous or delayed release can occur if the light has been damaged during its manufacture, shipping, subsequent installation handling or use, or there is an inherent weak spot or stress concentration within the glass body. Most all damaged lights or lights with inclusions that cause excessive stress concentrations will not survive the thermal rigors of the tempering operation. Of those few that do survive, most will release within a day or so, leaving a small percentage that may not release until even weeks later. These few lights can be expected to be a small portion of unexplained breakage.

8. Although some spontaneous breakage will occur as noted in #6 and #7 above, much breakage is erroneously called "spontaneous" only because there was no easily visible cause. Frequently, inspection of the surround will reveal damage done to the framing thru installation or abuse so that the glass is stressed near its breaking point and a subsequent movement, or temperature change forces that glass to yield.

9. Accidental or deliberate vandalism can be another cause of unexplained breakage.


SUMMARY: Since glass (including tempered glass) can be broken and because most unexplained breakage is beyond the manufacturer's control, it is unreasonable and impractical for anyone to effectively warrant against glass breakage.

syrob@MSN.COM
09-27-05, 10:50 PM
Safety glass is used in automobiles. Safety glass is something many of us look through every time we ride inside a vehicle or enter a public building. There are two kinds of safety glass:

Laminated

Tempered

Automakers began using laminated safety glass, also known as auto glass, for automobile windshields in 1927. To make laminated safety glass, the manufacturer sandwiches a thin layer of flexible clear plastic film called polyvinyl butyral (PVB) between two or more pieces of glass. The plastic film holds the glass in place when the glass breaks, helping to lessen injuries from flying glass. The film also can stretch, yet the glass still sticks to it. It is also quite difficult to penetrate laminated safety glass, compared to normal window pane glass. The "sandwich with some give" that laminated safety glass is made of also helps hold the occupants in a vehicle! Banks use a multiple-layer laminated glass to help stop bullets.
Laminated safety glass has two other additional benefits:

It reduces transmission of high frequency sound.
It blocks 97 percent of ultraviolet radiation.
Laminated safety glass is also used in:
Thermometers for taking body temperature
Cutting boards
Greenhouse windows
Shower enclosures
Office partitions
Laminated safety glass resists falling out of its frame during an earthquake or a tornado.


Tempered safety glass is a single piece of glass that gets tempered using a process that heats, then quickly cools, the glass to harden it. The tempering process increases the strength of the glass to five to 10 times that of untempered glass. Tempered safety glass breaks differently than regular clear glass. When tempered safety glass is struck it does not break into sharp jagged pieces of shrapnel-like glass as normal window panes or mirrors do. Instead, it breaks into little pebble-like pieces, without sharp edges. It is used in the side and rear windows of automobiles. Eyewear uses tempered glass that has been tempered using a chemical process.

Tempered safety glass is also used in:

Computer monitors
Liquid crystal displays (LCDs)
Skylights
Refrigerator shelves
Oven doors
Storm doors
You can easily spot tempered safety glass in an automobile rear windows on a sunny day if you are wearing polarized sunglasses. Tilt your head 90 degrees or so and you will see a symmetrical pattern in the glass created during its tempering process.

DG2
09-27-05, 11:03 PM
Safety glass is used in automobiles. Safety glass is something many of us look through every time we ride inside a vehicle or enter a public building. There are two kinds of safety glass:

Laminated

Tempered

Automakers began using laminated safety glass, also known as auto glass, for automobile windshields in 1927. To make laminated safety glass, the manufacturer sandwiches a thin layer of flexible clear plastic film called polyvinyl butyral (PVB) between two or more pieces of glass. The plastic film holds the glass in place when the glass breaks, helping to lessen injuries from flying glass. The film also can stretch, yet the glass still sticks to it. It is also quite difficult to penetrate laminated safety glass, compared to normal window pane glass. The "sandwich with some give" that laminated safety glass is made of also helps hold the occupants in a vehicle! Banks use a multiple-layer laminated glass to help stop bullets.
Laminated safety glass has two other additional benefits:

It reduces transmission of high frequency sound.
It blocks 97 percent of ultraviolet radiation.
Laminated safety glass is also used in:
Thermometers for taking body temperature
Cutting boards
Greenhouse windows
Shower enclosures
Office partitions
Laminated safety glass resists falling out of its frame during an earthquake or a tornado.


Tempered safety glass is a single piece of glass that gets tempered using a process that heats, then quickly cools, the glass to harden it. The tempering process increases the strength of the glass to five to 10 times that of untempered glass. Tempered safety glass breaks differently than regular clear glass. When tempered safety glass is struck it does not break into sharp jagged pieces of shrapnel-like glass as normal window panes or mirrors do. Instead, it breaks into little pebble-like pieces, without sharp edges. It is used in the side and rear windows of automobiles. Eyewear uses tempered glass that has been tempered using a chemical process.

Tempered safety glass is also used in:

Computer monitors
Liquid crystal displays (LCDs)
Skylights
Refrigerator shelves
Oven doors
Storm doors
You can easily spot tempered safety glass in an automobile rear windows on a sunny day if you are wearing polarized sunglasses. Tilt your head 90 degrees or so and you will see a symmetrical pattern in the glass created during its tempering process.

You seem to really know your stuff. What is your position on the Ultraview claims. Could there be a design flaw? Too much pressure on the glass or any other factor that could cause it to shatter?

Smokin' SRX
09-28-05, 10:27 AM
Good point..

I think laminated side glass windows is an option on some Ultra lux models from Lexus and MB...


SYROB

Hi! Yes. The Lincoln Aviator also has offered LAMINATED side windows for 3 years (since introed). The SRX sunroof should DEFINITELY have been laminated, just like your windsheild! Please drive with the sunscreen (shade) closed, or the roof open, for maximum safety! I will open mine when parking it this winter to help warm the interior a bit! Good luck and enjoy this beautiful option in a safe manner.

syrob@MSN.COM
09-28-05, 02:25 PM
You seem to really know your stuff. What is your position on the Ultraview claims. Could there be a design flaw? Too much pressure on the glass or any other factor that could cause it to shatter?

I just did a search, pasted from what I found, can not take credit for typing this myself, but the information is very useful for all of us... Only time will tell as more issues are reported. I myself had my SRX windshield replaced from a stress fracture under warranty.

Hope no one else gets hurt...

SYROB

krug300
09-28-05, 04:23 PM
That's quite a "refresher" on the types of glass, thanks SYROB. As a owner of a '04 V8 AWD which had the misfortune of falling of a carrier truck (rain, overspeeding truck, jacknifed truck...) I can attest to the following. The ultraview is one tough piece of glass. It is obviously thicker than the side/rear glass in order to compensate for its size. My SRX skidded on a wet highway upside down for at least 50-70 feet before coming to a stop resting on the top of the windshield and the front of the hood. Both A-pillars were bent 2-3 inches, and the ultraview was severely scratched on its forward area by the road. It did not break, which goes to show that, it is the "frequency" of the hit on the glass that makes the difference. I would guess that if you (gently) throw a potato sized rock against a piece of tempered glass nothing would happen. Hit it with the "plug" end of a spark plug and you will probably smash it to a million pieces.
Have you seen the "escape" hammers in mass transit vehicles? A plastic thingie with a sharp edged piece of metal. That's all it takes.
I do agree that a laminated glass would be even safer for ultraview applications.
A tempered version though seems to be almost as safe, since it is not exposed "verticaly", where the forward motion of a car would multiply the impact force of a foreign object.
John
Athens, Greece