: STOP WHINING and DO SOMETHING



CVP33
08-28-05, 01:33 PM
Should we not be able to resolve our rear differentials with GM we will need to retain a lawyer. I've spoken with a few forum members like myself that have had multiple failures. We can secure a competent lawyer with experience in this area to represent us all instead of one here or there. My suggestion is that each forum member who is serious about fixing the rear differential issues once and for all be prepared to do the following:

1) Pony up $100 to $200 via PayPal to a legal fund (I paid more for floor mats)
2) Supply your VIN, Name, Purchase Date, etc.
3) Supply copies of your repair receipts
4) Provide a brief description of your specific failure(s)

I know just from a quick scan of our power posters that we have at least 20 failures between us. This is more than enough to begin a case. Once it takes on a class action status we will find even more failures.

My guess is that this will need to be filed in Michigan but I'm not sure. This should not be limited to CTS-V and CTS owners but anyone who has the specific Getrag part # in question.

DO NOT DO ANYTHING YET. However, I do feel that the Monday forum with GM is the time to table this issue. We can talk more about that Monday prior to the GM meeting.

I've had enough and I know most everyone else has as well.

Devil_concours
08-28-05, 02:03 PM
srx owners also have the same issues as us.

btw when my rear end howls i just turn my music up loud but now i seem to have ran into another problem (either my drunk access door is rattling or i need to get the sub remounted.)

Florian
08-28-05, 02:25 PM
Chris,

200 bux for legal is a no brainer....count me in if the shit hits the fan on Mon.

F

6104696
08-28-05, 02:54 PM
srx owners also have the same issues as us.

btw when my rear end howls i just turn my music up loud but now i seem to have ran into another problem (either my drunk access door is rattling or i need to get the sub remounted.)

you have a drunk access door? I failed to notice that option.......:sneaky:

crowan
08-28-05, 03:26 PM
I have never tracked my car, power shifted my car, modded my drivetrain, or done one single burnout, but at 9K miles, I have started hearing a metallic howl whenever I make a turn. It may be howling at speed, but the Corsa is too loud to tell. If it is my rear going bad, after my powderpuff driving miles, it would represent a true case of bad engineering.

In any case, count me in for the $200. I'll gladly support an effort that clearly affects the V community, whether my car is afflicted or not.

Carl

GT04CTS-V
08-28-05, 03:41 PM
My first diff failed at 3000 miles. My car was bone stock.

Count me in - Keep us posted.

Thanks,

GT

ta206
08-28-05, 04:06 PM
you have a drunk access door? I failed to notice that option.......:sneaky:

In my car the drunk access door is the left front one.

ace996
08-28-05, 07:02 PM
Should I decide to keep the V, I'm all in. She's going in on Tuesday morning as there is a specific slow-speed-bump-suspension issue. It sounds like a loose shock mount. If I attain 16 more days in the shop, she's LemonLawed and I'm STi bound.

51PHFTY
08-28-05, 07:52 PM
Should we not be able to resolve our rear differentials with GM we will need to retain a lawyer. I've spoken with a few forum members like myself that have had multiple failures. We can secure a competent lawyer with experience in this area to represent us all instead of one here or there. My suggestion is that each forum member who is serious about fixing the rear differential issues once and for all be prepared to do the following:

1) Pony up $100 to $200 via PayPal to a legal fund (I paid more for floor mats)
2) Supply your VIN, Name, Purchase Date, etc.
3) Supply copies of your repair receipts
4) Provide a brief description of your specific failure(s)

I know just from a quick scan of our power posters that we have at least 20 failures between us. This is more than enough to begin a case. Once it takes on a class action status we will find even more failures.

My guess is that this will need to be filed in Michigan but I'm not sure. This should not be limited to CTS-V and CTS owners but anyone who has the specific Getrag part # in question.

DO NOT DO ANYTHING YET. However, I do feel that the Monday forum with GM is the time to table this issue. We can talk more about that Monday prior to the GM meeting.

I've had enough and I know most everyone else has as well.

Hey guys:

I am a trial lawyer - no I am not soliciting this nor do I practice this type of law. But, I think that if GM will not "own up," CVP's suggestion may be the only route left. I do not think it has to be filed in Michigan. It can be filed in whatever state a class plaintiff purchased their car I think. There is some new legislation out that may land it in Federal Court anyway. From what I have been reading, this may have a pretty good shot. I also will join in if my rear end goes (so far I have been lucky at 9k miles). I also think the idea of pooling a couple hundred bucks each to get it rolling is very smart. I suggest that you guys appoint a lead person or two to handle the details with the lawyer. I handle cases for groups of gas station owners against their own brands and that is exactly how we now do it most of the time- reduced fee and reduced contingency. It wouldn't hurt to find a good lemon law type of lawyer or a lawyer who specializes in breach of warranty (products) who is also a gearhead.

However, let's hope that GM does the right thing (or at least gets close to it). Litigation can get very aggravating for everyone but the lawyers.

Marty

Drift-caddy
08-28-05, 08:23 PM
heck let me know and i will help out as well.

CVP33
08-28-05, 08:27 PM
Marty,

I appreciate your input above. Also I would caution everyone with regard to this. You are ALL affected by failing rear differentials with regard to reliability and resale. The word is out on the CTS-V and it's not good. This will eventually cost all of us in diminished value and further, I don't know one person on the forum that isn't nervous about improving their V without fear of a Dealer or DSM cancelling your warranty. We'll know more after Monday evening but honestly I'm not holding out much hope.

CVP33
08-28-05, 08:32 PM
heck let me know and i will help out as well.

While I appreciate any support, don't get yourself into trouble here. GM is a VERY large corporation and this will most certainly get worse before it gets better. Most companies of this size need to be forced into doing the right thing. Remember there are in excess of 7,000 defective CTS-V rear differentials on the road today that GM knows about. At roughly $1,000 to repair they're looking at $7,000,000 in liability here. Add the SRX and CTS owners and now we're looking at huge numbers. We know Getrag is aware of the situation and certainly they will be asked to testify.

HDMLNIUM
08-28-05, 08:32 PM
You can count me in for the $200.00 if we go this route. My dealer/ Service Manager did fine by me but Cadillac as a whole needs a lot of work if they are to make it in the "Performance car market"


Bill

Drift-caddy
08-28-05, 09:30 PM
While I appreciate any support, don't get yourself into trouble here. GM is a VERY large corporation and this will most certainly get worse before it gets better. Most companies of this size need to be forced into doing the right thing. Remember there are in excess of 7,000 defective CTS-V rear differentials on the road today that GM knows about. At roughly $1,000 to repair they're looking at $7,000,000 in liability here. Add the SRX and CTS owners and now we're looking at huge numbers. We know Getrag is aware of the situation and certainly they will be asked to testify.

its ok, i have add a phone call or two before and run in with the DSM and other people. If i thought Gm was correct here i would stand by them, but in this case i think they have it wrong. So as i said i will support this all the way. My question to all, including our DSM is, if there is no problem with the rear and it is from abuse, then why change it, why change the rear and axles?? why the upgrades. you dont fix something if it aint broke....... well just my .02 here.

Vrocks
08-28-05, 09:45 PM
While I appreciate any support, don't get yourself into trouble here. GM is a VERY large corporation and this will most certainly get worse before it gets better. Most companies of this size need to be forced into doing the right thing. Remember there are in excess of 7,000 defective CTS-V rear differentials on the road today that GM knows about. At roughly $1,000 to repair they're looking at $7,000,000 in liability here. Add the SRX and CTS owners and now we're looking at huge numbers. We know Getrag is aware of the situation and certainly they will be asked to testify.

Are you talking about complete failures or just whining?

I've said it before, if you've experienced multiple rear diff failures then something else is wrong with your V, or your driving style. I just passed 21,000 miles on my '04 and there's zero whine coming from the original diff, and it's still using the original fluid. I've asked people that I know who work on the cars and they've had complaints for some whining but not 1 V has been in for a failed rear diff.

After multiple rear diff failures doesn't your V qualify as a lemon?

Florian
08-28-05, 09:53 PM
Vrocks,

My V is on the verge of diff #3, this one will be for whining. The other 2 were failures. My driving style? almost 50k on the clock (30K of my doing, I bought a PEP vehicle with 16 K on the dial). Easy highway driving, no races, no burnouts, no clutch drops. My V is my business car and I use it as such. but almost 3 rears on a babied V and its driving style...I beg to differ.

F

Devil_concours
08-28-05, 10:20 PM
its ok, i have add a phone call or two before and run in with the DSM and other people. If i thought Gm was correct here i would stand by them, but in this case i think they have it wrong. So as i said i will support this all the way. My question to all, including our DSM is, if there is no problem with the rear and it is from abuse, then why change it, why change the rear and axles?? why the upgrades. you dont fix something if it aint broke....... well just my .02 here.
can i bring my regular cts to your dealership? Mine has been whining quite some time.

Drift-caddy
08-28-05, 10:26 PM
can i bring my regular cts to your dealership? Mine has been whining quite some time.

you can bring me any car, caddy or anything else you have. just call and make a appointment

Vrocks
08-28-05, 10:33 PM
Vrocks,

My V is on the verge of diff #3, this one will be for whining. The other 2 were failures. My driving style? almost 50k on the clock (30K of my doing, I bought a PEP vehicle with 16 K on the dial). Easy highway driving, no races, no burnouts, no clutch drops. My V is my business car and I use it as such. but almost 3 rears on a babied V and its driving style...I beg to differ.

F
Or something else, like human error during the installation. Why do some V's have multiple failures while others have none?

Because the majority of rear diffs are fine I think it has to be a quality control problem on Getrags behalf.

- Have a company perform an analysis of the diff casing castings, and the gears. If it is the diff then there must be significant variances among the castings, and even if you can't find a good diff for an analysis take in as much of a failed diff as you can. I don't know how much this would cost but perhaps you could use the paypal money for this research before moving ahead with a lawsuit.
--------------
I drive my V hard. Wheel hop so many times it's rediculous, races from a roll and a stop. I learned to drive stick in this car!!! I locked the rear end up at 50mph for a second or two after a bad downshift, it kicked out of gear one time because of the hop. I'm not lying, and I honestly can't believe the car is still ok, so the diff must be built to withstand this amount of power and then some. There must be significant variances in the casting qualtiy of theses components.

corneredbeast
08-28-05, 10:34 PM
At ~2200 miles, my diff is whining in the 45mph range, but I have not had the dealer look at it. If that qualifies, count me in as well.


Or something else, like human error during the installation. Why do some V's have multiple failures while others have none?
I believe that the dealers are simply dropping in a new pumpkin, how much room for error exists in that procedure?


Because the majority of rear diffs are fine I think it has to be a quality control problem on Getrags behalf.
Yes, the quality control problem seems to be with the GM bean counters who spec'd a differential rated for only ~75% of the torque output of the LS6. How could GM's negligence be more apparent? (Unless Getrag offered GM some guarantee that it was suitable for the application)


Have a company perform an analysis of the diff casing castings, and the gears. If it is the diff then there must be significant variances among the castings, and even if you can't find a good diff for an analysis take in as much of a failed diff as you can.
I'd be surprised if the dealers don't have to submit the failed assemblies to GM . Which would mean that the only way to acquire a failed unit is to replace it on your own dime.


I drive my V hard. Wheel hop so many times it's rediculous, races from a roll and a stop. I learned to drive stick in this car!!! I locked the rear end up at 50mph for a second or two after a bad downshift, it kicked out of gear one time because of the hop. I'm not lying, and I honestly can't believe the car is still ok, so the diff must be built to withstand this amount of power and then some. There must be significant variances in the casting qualtiy of theses components.
That's the problem here - I don't drive my V hard. Spun the tires maybe twice. Haven't raced a soul. Haven't missed a shift, didn't learn the stick in this car. If I hadn't been reading this forum for the past six months, I wouldn't have a clue that the whining from my diff was *that* unusual. My M3 diff whines, too, and it's had the hell beat out of it. Some M3 owners have had their diffs replaced without much fighting with BMWNA, but that problem is far less widespread than the CTS-V issue.
Keep in mind that a very small percentage of CTS-V (and CTS and SRX) owners are members here, so there's likely a lot of vehicles with whining diffs that we know nothing about, and those owners also don't have a clue that their diff is on the way out.

CVP33
08-28-05, 10:36 PM
Vrocks,

No problem. If you don't believe that there is a problem that's fine. 19.4% of responding V owners have replaced their rear differentials at least once. That leaves over 80% of you that haven't had an issue yet. And I do say yet. My hope is that you don't have a failure, but you are still affected by the diminished value of driving a V that has an under-engineered part. The 06's have improved rear differentials and improved half shafts proving that GM needed to address the known issue of an under-engineered part.

Now you can sit on the sidelines as WE go fight for your resale value and that's fine. But please don't accuse those of us with failures as having "something wrong with our driving style". This makes you no better than the DSM's and dealers that decline our warranties due to worn tires that must signify aggressive driving. Failed differentials ARE the problem they are not symptomatic of aggressive driving, no more than wheel hop is.

Now you've replied twice to our threads regarding our problems again blaming us and THAT'S ENOUGH! Pipe down and sit on the sidelines for this one as you obviously have no dog in this fight. We'll still work on getting GM to do right by ALL V owners despite your efforts to blame us.

Respectfully,

Chris

Vrocks
08-28-05, 10:45 PM
Vrocks,

No problem. If you don't believe that there is a problem that's fine. 19.4% of responding V owners have replaced their rear differentials at least once. That leaves over 80% of you that haven't had an issue yet. And I do say yet. My hope is that you don't have a failure, but you are still affected by the diminished value of driving a V that has an under-engineered part. The 06's have improved rear differentials and improved half shafts proving that GM needed to address the known issue of an under-engineered part.

Now you can sit on the sidelines as WE go fight for your resale value and that's fine. But please don't accuse those of us with failures as having "something wrong with our driving style". This makes you no better than the DSM's and dealers that decline our warranties due to worn tires that must signify aggressive driving. Failed differentials ARE the problem they are not symptomatic of aggressive driving, no more than wheel hop is.

Now you've replied twice to our threads regarding our problems again blaming us and THAT'S ENOUGH! Pipe down and sit on the sidelines for this one as you obviously have no dog in this fight. We'll still work on getting GM to do right by ALL V owners despite your efforts to blame us.

Respectfully,

Chris

- I do believe the rear diffs have a problem but I think it's Getrags fault not GM's.

- I didn't accuse you have being an abusive driver, but some people are (myself included). I drive my V hard. Wheel hop so many times it's rediculous, races from a roll and a stop. I learned to drive stick in this car!!! I locked the rear end up at 50mph for a second or two after a bad downshift, it kicked out of gear one time because of the hop. I'm not lying, and I honestly can't believe the car is still ok, so the diff must be built to withstand this amount of power and then some. There must be significant variances in the casting qualtiy of theses components.

- I won't pipe down.

- I've offered suggestions, on how to go after them.

- Resale means nothing to me because I leased my V.

- Basically, I think you guys have a really shitty case right now, and you need better evidence. So I've been offering things to look at in order to find a "confirmed flaw", I'm sorry that you took the abusive driving possibility so personally. If I could, I'd offer my rear diff for a scientific analysis.

Sandyfoot-V
08-28-05, 10:56 PM
Chris,

You are absolutely right that there is a clear design flaw or manufacturing defect. Driving style has little to do with the differential failures. The numbers tell the tale: a 2% failure rate is an anomaly; 20% is a major problem. GM has dodged this issue with total disregard for the consumer. This is most likely due to the fact that people are not dying from this defect (e.g. deaths from GM trucks whose gas tanks explode on side impact). The price of the fix exceeds the potential for litigation—a calculated risk by industry standards. Do what you think is best. I’ll throw in for legal expenses.

CVP33
08-28-05, 11:18 PM
Vrocks - My apologies. I PM'd you more detail on my position as well. I don't normally take these kind of things personally but this has gotten personal. When DSM's and Dealers accuse owners of abusive driving with absolutely no proof so that they can in turn void our warranties I say ENOUGH!

GM is solely liable for the quality of the parts they install on their vehicles. Getrag supplied the parts that GM asked for. GM knew full well that the rear differential in the V was built to withstand 310 ft/lbs of torque. Woefully underated for the V application. The significant improvements to the '06 rear differentials and half shafts stand as proof that GM knows there is a problem and is addressing it. But what about '04 and '05 owners? Your V's just became worth less. What we must all fight for is the rear differential we all deserved in the V in the first place and we shouldn't be forced to buy an '06 to get it. Now I may very well be able to force GM into buying my V back after multiple failures and then I can make my choice on what car to own after that. But that doesn't help ALL V OWNERS and that's what we need to focus on here.

51PHFTY
08-29-05, 12:04 AM
Vrocks - My apologies. I PM'd you more detail on my position as well. I don't normally take these kind of things personally but this has gotten personal. When DSM's and Dealers accuse owners of abusive driving with absolutely no proof so that they can in turn void our warranties I say ENOUGH!

GM is solely liable for the quality of the parts they install on their vehicles. Getrag supplied the parts that GM asked for. GM knew full well that the rear differential in the V was built to withstand 310 ft/lbs of torque. Woefully underated for the V application. The significant improvements to the '06 rear differentials and half shafts stand as proof that GM knows there is a problem and is addressing it. But what about '04 and '05 owners? Your V's just became worth less. What we must all fight for is the rear differential we all deserved in the V in the first place and we shouldn't be forced to buy an '06 to get it. Now I may very well be able to force GM into buying my V back after multiple failures and then I can make my choice on what car to own after that. But that doesn't help ALL V OWNERS and that's what we need to focus on here.

At least in California, CVP is right. All of us have no "privity" with Getrag. We do have "privity" with GM since that is who we did business with. Also, don't kid yourselves, If GM is forced to deal with this, either through litigation, pressure or......, they will try to force the $$ on Getrag for reimbursment which is when Getrag says they built it to GM specs. and on and on. If GM has to swallow the cost, it becomes a tax loss etc. for them (or however they recover the $$).

I think with the way GM advertised the car and the way the sales force (dealers) were told to market the car in the showrooms, they have a problem given everything that has appeared here. Also, yes its GM, but, as a lawyer who sues companies like Shell, ConocoPhillips, ExxonMobil, BP (Arco), ChevronTexaco etc., I can tell you that they can be brought down. Understand, they will spend more than $5m in legal fees alone fighting it. But eventually (maybe even at the start) it is a numbers game for them and when they get to the point that the $$ will be less to fix it than to continue to fight it and maybe at the end, still have to fix it (and maybe suffer a little bad PR), they can fold. It is not easy, but from first hand experience (you can't sue anyone bigger than a major oil company), I can tell you that it can be done.

My $.02 anyway.

Marty

wildwhl
08-29-05, 12:27 AM
I'm in.

Remember - Bad V publicity will also have a negative impact on the upcoming models. Can GM afford this :nono:

My V goes in Tuesday for a full sunroof and headliner replacement, another driver's side sunvisor replacement (vinyl coming out around the homelink buttons again), dealer is refusing to do the bushing TSB - says they can't find it (I gave them a copy to help - but they're still lost) and when I mentioned my clutch pedal sticks on high-rpm shifts they suggested I shift at lower rpm's :banghead:

I love the car, have modded it to all hell, and will keep it for that reason only. If it were still stock I'd dump it right now, and learn to live with the arrogance and attitude of the local Bimmer dealership :annoyed:

JBeechel
08-29-05, 01:16 AM
I can shoot over some cash on the 14th or so, where is it going? However, before we do that, realize there are plenty of attorneys out there who would take a class action suit on a contingency basis, as any attorney will tell you (as long as the case appears solid).

Well, that's my two cents...

JB

heavymetals
08-29-05, 02:13 AM
I cannot understand Cadillac marketing a "high performance" anything and not being concerned about multiple complaints and failures.
Talk about vendor support!
(or lack thereof)
If you need a contribution to force them to step up (which shouldn't have to be the case), I am in.

Drift-caddy
08-29-05, 08:33 AM
I'm in.

Remember - Bad V publicity will also have a negative impact on the upcoming models. Can GM afford this :nono:

My V goes in Tuesday for a full sunroof and headliner replacement, another driver's side sunvisor replacement (vinyl coming out around the homelink buttons again), dealer is refusing to do the bushing TSB - says they can't find it (I gave them a copy to help - but they're still lost) and when I mentioned my clutch pedal sticks on high-rpm shifts they suggested I shift at lower rpm's :banghead:

I love the car, have modded it to all hell, and will keep it for that reason only. If it were still stock I'd dump it right now, and learn to live with the arrogance and attitude of the local Bimmer dealership :annoyed:


LMFAO, sorry but your dealer need a wake up call. if you gave them the tsb number and they still have no clue, i suggest you run dont walk to your dealer and pick up you car.

CTSV05
08-29-05, 01:59 PM
Well, fellas, as CVP said earlier, "It shouldn't be this hard to own a 50K car".

I will be happy to join in as I feel I'm SOL, but if the other V owners can benefit, then so be it.

Well, I'll get pics, but my case blew apart behind the front cover, not where my kit was, funny, the part actually attached to the kit is still intact, except for the bolts pulling out of the cracked housing.

Must be my fault!

This whole thing of inferior parts selection regardless who's fault it is has tainted what was once the greatest joy I have ever experienced from owning a car.

Oh, BTW guys, the jerktrag rear, is rated at 420Nm, which equals 309.77 lbs ft, BUT, that is engine torque, not axle torque!!! Look on the jerktrag site. We have, even in a weak V over 325 lbs ft at the WHEELS!!!

Good Call!!!

heavymetals
08-29-05, 04:39 PM
Ok, so all this talk about bad differentials gets me paranoid enough that I am under my car at midnight with a flashlight.

The seal is wet around the gasket and there are a few drops of liquid on the ground underneath.:eek: :eek:

I take it to the dealer this morning.

Guess what?

They ordered a new diff.:(

Cracked housing.:banghead:

No whine or howl just leaking

MLV
08-29-05, 06:15 PM
I'm in. I have two to worry about.