If GM wants to step it up and make a comeback then this is what they have to do. Not only should they do this, they NEED to do this. There is a glaring, glaring need for GM to immediately attack in full force: the manufacturing and distribution of Fuel Efficient Vehicles.

Back when Gas was cheap and it was $1.10 a gallon (as low at 87 cents a gallon) the craze became the SUV. It was cheap to drive because gas was cheap, and most of us enjoyed this luxury. We now have millions and millions of vehicles on the road (SUV's, VAN's, Trucks) that don't make sense from an economic and fuel efficiency stand point. Gas prices are breaking records every single day. This has caused the demand for fuel efficient vehicles to increase exponentially in demand and the demand for fuel inefficient vehicles to Rapidly decrease despite desparate employee pricing promotions. Giving employee pricing to average consumers shows us how bad its gotten. This will hurt the companies in the long run who have seriously dilluted their product. Sticker price is a laughing stock.

Disclaimer: I have to admit that it's nice that SUV's and Trucks are bigger, higher up off the road, and can tow things (like my toys). I have no issues with the great American truck or SUV. I wouldn't mind a Cadi again some day. The people who have no pain about paying 2.70 per gallon for gas, there's no need to change. Keep it up! However, the average American consumer needs to be offered by American manufacturers good looking, stylish, decent sizes vehicles that most importantly get good mileage. I'm not talking improved mileage, I'm talking double the mileage. I know that it IS POSSIBLE to make a 20 mph large Sedan into a 40 mph large sedan. If this takes, putting a hybrid tag on a car to do and missing out on some power then so be it and we can get 51 miles a gallon. The demand is there, trust me, GO FOR IT.

I would love to buy a big four door car that had at least some HP in it but also got great gas mileage. I'd buy one today. Or better yet, the next vehicle I purchase will be a Hybrid. If GM manufactures a hybrid by the time I want to buy (which won't be for a year) that has decent leg room with 4 doors, then I'll buy it from GM. There! Bring it on General Motors. Better yet, why don't they make some fuel efficient, reliable Cadillacs and I'll buy one for 50 G's! That would be an oxymoron I know (Fuel Efficient Cadillacs), but the demand for Cadillacs would immediately go up because a major consumer objection would be withrawn. If they were as reliable as a JAPanese car, I'd buy 2. Really, what is a luxury car if its not reliable? If a good car is reliable, shouldn't a great/excellent/luxury car that we pay a huge price premium for be just as reliable if not better? Damn straight! Then why did my GM Manufactured cadi always break down on me?? Ask the 1997 upper management to get the answer because I don't know why, it was a luxury car.

Hell, why not up the ante and put in more chips. I'm giving GM & Cadillac 1-2 years to make a 4 door fuel efficient luxury car and if they don't, I'm buying a new Lexus. Sorry, I'll be forced to. I'll go Asian on y'all despite my patriotic ways.

What happens if GM misses the boat on this and doesn't act immediately? Very Bad Things.

*Drum Roll* I predict that the number of Hybrids bought this upcoming year at least triples over last year and triples again the next year minimum. I mean after all, Hybrid owners get a $3000 annual tax cut just for owning one. It's literally the same as being paid to drive a fuel efficient car.

If 33% of Americans drove fuel efficient cars of which half were produced by American companies, this nation would have the health of its biggest manufacturers back, gas prices would plummet, we would be far less dependent on outside nations, we would lower the trade deficit, and literally thrive. Freedom! I would speculate the our current dependence on Oil to go about our daily lives is holding back the economy more than you could know. We are trapped in our SUV's and can't get out! Some of us have, a lot of us have not.

What about Hydrogen fueled Cars? I believe Ford has has done extensive R & D regarding hydrogen cars and they need to keep going. What if 33% of American's drove Hydrogen cars? Or 90%? There would be no fuel emissions, no more toxic emisssions tearing up the ozone, causing global warming, giving me a sunburn, and my future kids Asthma.

I would love to stop pouring money into the pockets of Saudi Arabia and the other Middle Eastern Nations' pockets. If we were not dependent on those Nations' Oil it would rule! Do you know how much they are making off us right now!! It's a cruel punishment or joke for starting a war that Bush thought would give us more control over gas prices, but in fact, ever since 03 when we bombed Iraq, Oil prices have spiraled out of control.

It all makes sense.

In conclusion, I would like to part with:

There is a gigantic demand for American Car Manufacturers to give the consumers what they want: fuel efficient cars or even alternatively fueled cars. Missing the boat would be suicide. Not innovating would lead to possibly going out of business. What happened in the Airline Industry is already happening in the car industry. Oldmobile is gone and Buick is on its way because innovation hasn't happened in years. Reliable, smart innovation is what GM, etc. needs. Fuel efficiency/Alternative fuel sources is what we need. If GM can meet this demand with good lines of vehicles, they will begin a quick turn around.

These are my thougts. I hope GM reads them and awards me a new car for helping them so much with their business strategy. As of now it's free consulting... :cool2:

AGREED!!! Three cheers for Airjigga

I've been saying for a while that one area GM has been lagging behind in is use of production hybrids. Look at Honda and Toyota, aren't they already on their thrid generation of hybrids already, etc?

This is one area GM will be left behind in, if they aren't already.

http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/24/pf/gas_gripes/index.htm

Look at the pain my fellow americans are experiencing. Some people have to move to more dangerous neighborhoods because of gas prices. Damn.

There is a glaring, glaring need for GM to immediately attack in full force: the manufacturing and distribution of Fuel Efficient Vehicles.

What most people FAIL to realize, is that GM has more vehicles that have over 30 MPG than ANY other manufacturer.

As Bob Lutz said, Hybrids are neat, but just not practical in regular cars. GM IS making hybrids though for larger vehicles, like the Silverado V8 Hybrid and will have a Hybrid Saturn Vue and CHevy Malibu in a few years...

The thing with hybrids, is that while they may get better MPG, they cost more on the front end, which makes them about the same price as a regular Internal Combustion engine car.

Oxymoron: Fuel Efficient Cadillacs

Ahem...See the Cadillac Cimmaron please:thumbsup:

I would love to stop pouring money into the pockets of Saudi Arabia and the other Middle Eastern Nations' pockets.

Another misconception - that all of our oil comes from Saudi Arabia. Our oil comes from many different nations:

Saudi Arabia: 16.9%
Mexico: 15.1%
Canada: 15%
Venezuela: 14.4%
Iraq: 11.4%
Nigeria: 5.9%
(From January 2002)

What about Hydrogen fueled Cars? I believe Ford has has done extensive R & D regarding hydrogen cars and they need to keep going. What if 33% of American's drove Hydrogen cars? Or 90%? There would be no fuel emissions, no more toxic emisssions tearing up the ozone, causing global warming, giving me a sunburn, and my future kids Asthma.

GM pretty much started Hydrogen vehicles in case you don't know. They currently have a Hummer (H2H) that runs on hydrogen, with the Hydrogen fleet in Washington D.C. But the problem with hydrogen is that you have to fill up A LOT and its not so clean either. To get hydrogen, you have to burn coal, and burning coal pollutes the environment.

What most people FAIL to realize, is that GM has more vehicles that have over 30 MPG than ANY other manufacturer.

As Bob Lutz said, Hybrids are neat, but just not practical in regular cars. GM IS making hybrids though for larger vehicles, like the Silverado V8 Hybrid and will have a Hybrid Saturn Vue and CHevy Malibu in a few years...

The thing with hybrids, is that while they may get better MPG, they cost more on the front end, which makes them about the same price as a regular Internal Combustion engine car.



Ahem...See the Cadillac Cimmaron please:thumbsup:



Another misconception - that all of our oil comes from Saudi Arabia. Our oil comes from many different nations:

Saudi Arabia: 16.9%
Mexico: 15.1%
Canada: 15%
Venezuela: 14.4%
Iraq: 11.4%
Nigeria: 5.9%
(From January 2002)



GM pretty much started Hydrogen vehicles in case you don't know. They currently have a Hummer (H2H) that runs on hydrogen, with the Hydrogen fleet in Washington D.C. But the problem with hydrogen is that you have to fill up A LOT and its not so clean either. To get hydrogen, you have to burn coal, and burning coal pollutes the environment.

With all due respect:

Do you work for GM? Directly or Indirectly?

Opec controls Oil Markets at the moment and the middle east has it on lock.
At the end of 2003, OPEC had proven oil reserves of 891,116 million barrels of crude oil, representing 78.3 per cent of the world total of 1,137,550 million barrels.

Does cadillac have a hybrid? no. hydrogen? steam? no

Cimmarons aren't made anymore.

GM IS making hybrids? Good news. They can't get here fast enough. If they won't be here for a few years GM is screwed.

I guarantee that burning coal isn't the only way to produce Hydrogen.

IF, they make a silverado hybrid, then they will be doing something right, but the question is WHEN?

Saudi Arabia: 16.9%
Mexico: 15.1%
Canada: 15%
Venezuela: 14.4%
Iraq: 11.4%
Nigeria: 5.9%
(From January 2002)

"In 2002, Canada supplied the U.S. with 17% of its imports of crude and refined oil products - more than any other foreign supplier at over 1.91 million barrels per day."

I'm not sure where your info is from, but it's close. We provide MORE oil to the U.S. than any other country.....

http://www.canadianally.com/ca/about/facts-res-en.asp

"Oil reserves in Canada is 180 billion; second only to Saudi Arabia (U.S. Department of Energy). Actual reserves may be 315 billion barrels alone in Canada's Tar Sands Oil Field according the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers."

Personally, I'd rather use up the Saudi reserves than ours, but there is MORE than enough!

I heard 10% for Venezuela today on the news.

My concern is that if the oil companies get less money (everyone driving hybrids) then they will charge MORE to make up the difference anyway.

EDIT, one more thing.....

"US trade with the province of Ontario alone is bigger than with all of Japan
5 ½ million US jobs depend on Canadian imports from the US

Canada is the leading foreign source of energy to the US, including oil."

http://www.canadianally.com/ca/about/facts-trade-en.asp

good stuff Ralph. Go Canada.

One correction: Buick is doing fine, as a matter of fact, it's doing better than Pontiac. You said "oldsmobile is gone, and then went on & on regarding Buick. You shoulda added Plymouth is gone.

Weve been over all this in my Fuel thread and in numerous other threads over the past year. The consensus is that Hybrids are a great stop gap but they dont really resolve the problem due to cost and the fact that they arent getting the fuel economy they are advertising.

Another problem with Hybrids that isnt talked about much, is the fact that the Hybridization of the vehicle essentially reduces its maintenance free lifespan. While a gasoline powered vehicle is now running on technology that has been refined almost to the nth degree, Hybrids rely on a vast array of computers and electronics, the electric motors that provide the propulsion, and worst of all, the batteries that hold the charge. Starting with the batteries these are all parts that within 10 years will really begin to show their weaknesses on these first era Hybrids. Battery cell replacements if available, will probably run anywhere from 1-5,000.00 and theres no telling what motor or computer replacements will cost.

So you have a higher INITIAL cost, and most likely a higher END cost as well to keep the thing on the road reliably.

Hydrogen may very well be the next step. Another alternative are Biologically engineered products which can be grown right out of the soil, anything from Biodiesel to Corn syrup based fuels.

Weve been over all this in my Fuel thread and in numerous other threads over the past year. The consensus is that Hybrids are a great stop gap but they dont really resolve the problem due to cost and the fact that they arent getting the fuel economy they are advertising.

Another problem with Hybrids that isnt talked about much, is the fact that the Hybridization of the vehicle essentially reduces its maintenance free lifespan. While a gasoline powered vehicle is now running on technology that has been refined almost to the nth degree, Hybrids rely on a vast array of computers and electronics, the electric motors that provide the propulsion, and worst of all, the batteries that hold the charge. Starting with the batteries these are all parts that within 10 years will really begin to show their weaknesses on these first era Hybrids. Battery cell replacements if available, will probably run anywhere from 1-5,000.00 and theres no telling what motor or computer replacements will cost.

So you have a higher INITIAL cost, and most likely a higher END cost as well to keep the thing on the road reliably.

Hydrogen may very well be the next step.

Good points!! I heard that about the batteries also. Another problem with the batteries and the technology is that when it's time to replace the batteries in 7 or so years, the technology AND the batteries may well become obsolete! (meaning they might have better, but more expensive batteries by then anyway) And the expense to replace the battery will likely offset any savings you earn by fuel efficiency.

People are idiots:
http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/24/pf/gas_gripes/index.htm



"We've gotten our daily mileage down from 80 to 20, but we live in a more dangerous and noisy neighborhood."
^^--Poor cost-benefit analysis. Your wife gets raped but hey, you saved 50 bucks a month on gas! Pat yourself on the back you retard!

"I drive a Toyota so I get pretty good gas mileage."
^^--Not if its a Land Cruiser, you mind-numbingly ignorant tool. WHAT TOYOTA IS IT? The Malibu gets better mileage than the Camry!

"To cope with ridiculous gas prices, I have cut back on how much I eat. And I no longer buy soft drinks but now drink tap water only. If it goes much higher, I will walk to the grocery store and give up on going to Costco."
^^--If you're that god damn poor, take the bus. Gas didnt go up 10x.

"Every time I drive by a SUV or a Hummer, I think, poor guys must be spending a fortune every week just to show off."
^^--He should be thinking 'Yeah, they probably make more money than me and own a nicer house too. I guess the cost of gas is nothing compared to their car payment. But perhaps I can convince myself that driving a cheaper car justifies dropping out of college.'




My fellow Americans are morons.

http://www.autointell-news.com/News-2005/August-2005/A-2005-3/A-17-05-p3.htm

What if I was driving my dad's Civic Vx which gets 53mpg and does less damage to road surfaces due to its light weight? Why dont I get to hang in the HOV lane?

Thats bullcrap.

One correction: Buick is doing fine, as a matter of fact, it's doing better than Pontiac. You said "oldsmobile is gone, and then went on & on regarding Buick. You shoulda added Plymouth is gone.

I'm not sure they are fine, but yes they're still alive. The Buick LaCrosse is a nice car, reminds me of the 03 Aurora a little bit though. Yes, plymouth is gone.

Hybrids are overrated, all hype, little or no real-world benefit to the consumer. GM is investing very heavily in hydrogen compared to most other car companies, hopefully we can transfer to a hydrogen-dominated energy economy before we run out of oil or out of money to pay for the damn stuff.

Hybrids are just a stop-gap between gas powered cars and the next big thing. kinda like how 8 tracks came before cassettes...

Anyway, Hydrogen can only be extracted by using fossil fuels, so in reality, its no more cleaner as a whole, than gasoline. I think that biodiesel is good, but the problem with diesels is that they have no acceleration (even the new ones, which are much quieter than mine:lildevil:, may have more HP though...)

The real engineering marvel will be when they can break water down into oxygen and hydrogen on a cost-efficient scale, and then we could have cars that ran on water:), now THAT would be the best thing since sliced bread for sure...

I'm not sure they are fine, but yes they're still alive.

Buick is doing OK....

"Buick will probably sell 250,000 vehicles this year, which is be less than what Oldsmobile sold when it was given the death sentence."


http://www.forbes.com/columnists/columnists/2005/06/14/generalmotors-buick-discontinuation-cz_jf_0614flint.html

Of course Buick will do okay. They're in the top 5 in JD Powers this year, their designs are good and sturdy, and they have a good market - people who want luxury but don't want or need a Cadillac. Its like an upscale Chevy, kinda like Mercury is an upscale Ford, but Mercuries really are FORDS though...bad analogy...:devil:

I have to agree with the notion that hybrids are a stop gap. High overall costs versus lower dependency on foreign oil. Which way do most Americans think?

People are making some good points in this thread. Overall, I feel that GM needs to at least match the competition and put something comparable on the road as Honda and Toyota from a hybrid standpoint. You can't be so pessimistic and discount hybrids completely. You get a $3000 pure tax cut for owning one, over 4 years that will be 12 grand plus 4 years of fuel savings. Will gas be $4 a gallon in 4 years? who knows... And Hybrid Technology will only get better.

A hybrid Silverado intrigues me. A reliable Hybrid Silverado that is.

Yup, Oil prices broke another record yesterday.

Honestly, I feel bad for a guy who is locked into a 100 mile round trip commute and drives a truck or SUV that gets 13 MPG. Based on $2.70 a gallon, that is $20.76 per day in gas cost and $5192 in gas per year.

I'm not one for appreciating tax incentives like these. What happens is manufacturers keep their prices high and say "Look, the govnt is going to give $3K back". They really gouged us in the solar panel (energy) days that way too.

More burden on the taxpayers. The rules of supply and demand should be enough!

The hybrid advantage is artificial. Tax incentives, HOV lanes, and feel-good emotions. Ponder the environmental impact of manufacturing, battery recycling, and the cost of buying a new hybrid compared to keeping a 1992 Honda Civic Vx (53mpg hwy) on the road.

The Civic Vx wins.

You don't have to sit in traffic with a full size truck, but there's simpler and more economical ways of saving fuel and money than buying a hybrid.

I drove a Silverado Hybrid 1.5 YEARS ago. Is it yet to market? And it still didn't have Displacement on Demand! They est 10-15% better mpg with DOD and 10-15% with hybrid. Cool Where is it? The Silverado Hybrid did drive well, virtually undetectable except for the engine off any time the brake was on.

Personally? I don't think the savings in fuel warrant the insane $$ to purchase a hybrid compared to a normal car. Most hybrids aren't getting the mpg claimed, they are doing much less (20-30% less), back down to very close to their non hybrid counterparts. You can't trust EPA estimates. Shoot for real world #'s. They are very different.

I always carefully do the math in some spreadsheets to evaluate the real costs. I drive 100-120 miles each day to work and back. So I am pumping around $4000 a year into my local gas station at current $2.699 gas prices. If I BUY a hybrid right now over my current 94 Fleetwood Brougham, which is getting me a lousy 19 mpg, I will be paying and additional $400 a month+ in car payments ($25K/60 months) in addition to my gas and now higher insurance.

So currently I am paying $325 a month in gasoline in my 94 LT1 Fleetwood
No car payment, reaonable insurance ($115/mo for all 3 cars I have)
I add in a car payment of $400/mo, it doesn't matter what gas mileage it gets, you lose money.

So no, unless you are ALREADY in the market to buy a new car, and a hybrid is the same or very close in cost, it is very unlikely the cost of the car will ever outweigh the savings the car is supposed to bring. Keeping your existing car, no matter what fuel economy it gets, is a much better financial investment.

Same with Diesels on trucks. It typically takes 100,000 miles to break even on the initial higher cost of the diesel, despite the excellent fuel economy they bring over a gas engine.


A hybrid Silverado intrigues me. A reliable Hybrid Silverado that is.

A recent report on them, and that they are not what they seem to be.

http://news.webindia123.com/news/showdetails.asp?id=107927&n_date=20050818&cat=Business

A recent report on them, and that they are not what they seem to be.

http://news.webindia123.com/news/showdetails.asp?id=107927&n_date=20050818&cat=Business

Interesting! Toyota is so far ahead in this technology it isn't even funny anymore.

BUT, if in 8 years you never break even from the cost, what difference does it make?

The more miles and the longer you keep the car help, but for the average 15K a year driver, what little savings over what the non hybrid version, you end up PAYING more to drive the 'brid. Is it worth it? In most cases, no. Like the report said, highway cruisers will save nothing, if not get worse. But in the city, like a commuter who drives in downtown traffic it might benefit some. But you don't log that many miles in that rough stuff.

Do a web search for Rabbit Hybrid Diesel. Can we do the same thing with a 85-93 FWD Deville/Fleetwood to pull behind my Fleetwood Brougham? I think it would be a blast!

Even if I get 25% of my trip on batteries, I save 25% mpg. Now, what that DOESN'T take into account is cost per mile, if I am charging up at home, I am raising my electric bill too. Not much help here. But I am effectively avoiding some road taxes, which has a nice ring to it.... (I am still trying to figure out where all that money goes in Ill...)

People are idiots:

"I drive a Toyota so I get pretty good gas mileage."
^^--Not if its a Land Cruiser, you mind-numbingly ignorant tool. WHAT TOYOTA IS IT? The Malibu gets better mileage than the Camry!


"Every time I drive by a SUV or a Hummer, I think, poor guys must be spending a fortune every week just to show off."
^^--He should be thinking 'Yeah, they probably make more money than me and own a nicer house too. I guess the cost of gas is nothing compared to their car payment. But perhaps I can convince myself that driving a cheaper car justifies dropping out of college.'




My fellow Americans are morons.

I love that! Very true

Is it me or am I the only one that thinks carpooling is a stupid idea?

I have come across the situation (and so have other people I know) many times that once in a while, you need to leave school/work/business/party/etc unexpectedly because of an emergency that occurred somewhere else. This pretty much means that you are either stuck at the present location (because what are the chances that someone else who carpooled with you can just take you, drop you off, and go back to where you originally were, and go back to whatever was going on? You also have the alternative of taking a taxi to get to the destination, but all that money you just saved my car pooling (and then some) was just wasted on the taxi.

I'm sorry, I prefer to have the peace of mind that comes with going somewhere with my own car and if the emergency should come up, being able to leave at a moment's notice.

This is in regards to the carpooling comment posted earlier.

I think a water powered car would be sweet also.

I read somewhere a while back (no more than 2 weeks ago) that Honda said that even the most gas efficient engines are only about 20% efficient. I think that is a very bold statement to make. This means, assuming a very theoretically reasonable 60% efficiency, we should have about 3x the MPG of today.

I'll see if I can find that article again.

Emergencies are pretty rare though. At worst, a coworker calls a friend or significant other to come pick everyone up.

[QUOTE=psykiv]

I think a water powered car would be sweet also.

QUOTE]

bring back the stanley steamer

http://money.cnn.com/2005/09/02/markets/gas_prices/index.htm

y'all feeling me yet?

i saw them gouging people last night on TV , 6 bucks a gallon in Georgia.

What do you expect stations to do once they run out of fuel? They'll be piss-ass broke thanks to paranoid people hoarding. The inflated prices now make up for ZERO sales later when there's nothing left.

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/carpool/carpool.htm

I did not know all these cars qualify for the carpool lane!!

Seriously going to consider buying the new 2006 civic hybrid now!

I say that automakers make cars run on the one thing that will always be around: Human Waste. Yeah I know it's smelly but everyone is full of $hit sometimes. :histeric:

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/carpool/carpool.htm

I did not know all these cars qualify for the carpool lane!!

Seriously going to consider buying the new 2006 civic hybrid now!

my coworker has the civic hybrid and last weekend she drove round trip 8 hours from Boston to NYC and got back and still had a quarter tank.

My STS is paid for and gets pretty damn good gas mileage for what it does.

I'm not bitchin'.

Only when we run out of oil will anyone be FORCED to come up with the next big thing.

Until then, the STS rides.

My STS is paid for and gets pretty damn good gas mileage for what it does.

I'm not bitchin'.

Only when we run out of oil will anyone be FORCED to come up with the next big thing.

Until then, the STS rides.I feel the same way. My cars are all paid for and I really don't feel like taking on a car payment just to save gas. It just seems counter-effective to me.

But I have no car payments, so yes, it might take me more fuel, that is my only expense. I don't have to find the $300+ a month car payment too.

It is not financially sound to go into debt to "save" money. You never save a thing look at the long term calculations and projections, at what date will that car break you even over the car it replaced?

When I looked at a 35 mpg car to replace my 12 mpg T/A, and ONLY spending $8000 on the 35 mpg car, it would take me 8 years to BREAK EVEN. Else, for 8 years I am at a financial LOSS. > 8 years I might save something finally.

Car are often very bad financial "investments". Even if it gets bad mileage to one that gets really super good mileage.

Do you really think that any american car company is going to build more fuel efficent cars? Big Oil is in their back pocket and vice versa. Ford has the hybrid Escape and their are other makes and models out there. Those are laughable compared to the Japaniese market, specifically the reliability factor. Flip side, look at the Toyota Prius. It was supposed to sell at around $23000., but because of the demand, fools are paying $33000 and more for them. Still I would feel more comfortable owning the Prius than the Escape.

Me personally, I like to have my horspower along with bigger cars. Being my '67 is my hobby, the high price of gas is part of the game.

Anyway, Hydrogen can only be extracted by using fossil fuels, so in reality, its no more cleaner as a whole, than gasoline. I think that biodiesel is good, but the problem with diesels is that they have no acceleration (even the new ones, which are much quieter than mine:lildevil:, may have more HP though...)

Most hydrogen today is extracted from fossil fuel but that's far from the ONLY way to do it. In a couple decades we could have fusion reactors providing ample cheap energy to electrolyze water into H2 and O.

Diesels don't have no acceleration... especially newer turbodiesels. I ran a Cummins Ram in my ETC and we were dead even to 80. Granted it wasn't a stock truck and I had 2 passengers but diesels can make plenty of power and incredible torque.

Here is something I found today...

http://www.topgear.com/content/news/stories/93/

Here is something I found today...

http://www.topgear.com/content/news/stories/93/

wow we get a mention

Its £15,000 though

$27k US

GMs' Promise....

http://macleans.auto123.com/en/info/news/news,view.spy?artid=47850&pg=1

GMs' Promise....

http://macleans.auto123.com/en/info/news/news,view.spy?artid=47850&pg=1

yup, they definitely read my thread and decided they needed to do a press release to address it. :duck: HA