: Honda Brings Even Smaller Car to U.S.



Ralph
08-18-05, 01:15 AM
Honda's hoping to sell 60,000 a year over here; this car's smaller than the Civic.

http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=102978

"The Fit will compete with Toyota Motor Corp.'s successful Scion youth brand. At 60,000 a year, Fit sales would be on par with U.S. sales of Scion's two best sellers, the tC and xB. Through seven months of this year, Scion sold 31,964 xBs and 42,767 tCs."

Playdrv4me
08-18-05, 02:13 AM
Since when is the Mini part of the Econo group? The Mini falls into the same category as the VW New Beetle, Chrysler PT Cruiser and Mazda MX-5 Miata. Its one of those "fun second cars for people who have another primary car".

That said, regarding the rest of the list (you also left out Scion):

Toyota Echo followed by,
Hyundai Accent followed by,
Honda Fit.

ben72227
08-18-05, 03:09 AM
It's not a coupe like the Scion, so it won't do THAT well. It should sell because it's a Honda though...

Kev
08-18-05, 03:36 AM
This is not the first micro mini dance with Honda. Doesn't anybody here remember the 600 series?

The sedan;
http://www.luk-korbmacher.de/Autos/Honda/Keicars/N/n600us.jpg

The sexy sporty coupe;
http://www.honda600coupe.com/Steve%27s_1971_Honda_600_Coupe.jpg

And the ever useful and utilitarian truck;
http://dmr-gutters.com/600/tn/truck1.jpg

Night Wolf
08-18-05, 03:57 AM
I better put some of that mesh stuff behind the grille of the '79 DeVille, I don't want those things getting stuck in the radiator and cause my 425 to overheat...

Krashed989
08-18-05, 03:58 AM
OHH MY GOD, ITS UGLY, KILL IT!!!!!! :gun2:

mccombie_5
08-18-05, 05:45 AM
NO biggie we've had it in the UK for a while, very practical for its size, just not in pink, the Honda Jazz.

HotRodSaint
08-18-05, 11:16 AM
Much better looking than the Aveo, but it won't do better than the xA (which is not on the list).

Let's see what Nissan had in store, I think it will be much more stylish, thus trendy enough for the entry level econo-crowd.

And I agree, the Mini is in a seperate class as evidenced by it's higher starting price.

mccombie_5
08-18-05, 11:40 AM
Much better looking than the Aveo, but it won't do better than the xA (which is not on the list).

Let's see what Nissan had in store, I think it will be much more stylish, thus trendy enough for the entry level econo-crowd.

And I agree, the Mini is in a seperate class as evidenced by it's higher starting price.

Nissan will probably use the Micra for competition, it works well in this country, good car if you need a kitchen applience that looks liek a frog.

http://www.new-car-reviews.co.uk/Nissan/Nissan_Micra_Review.html

Ralph
08-18-05, 11:58 PM
Much better looking than the Aveo, but it won't do better than the xA (which is not on the list).

Let's see what Nissan had in store, I think it will be much more stylish, thus trendy enough for the entry level econo-crowd.

And I agree, the Mini is in a seperate class as evidenced by it's higher starting price.

The Scion wasn't on the list because it was described in the article as the primary competitor to which Honda is aiming. I was more interested in the other cars against which it competes.

The Mini very definitely is in the same class, but is at the very top of the price range. I know several people who have test-driven both it, the Echo, and the Accent. I put it on the list because I was curious to know if anyone would weight the price as a lesser issue compared to other things. The VW New Beetle might possibly be a competitor to the Mini and Fit, but I really can't see how the Miata (a 2-seater roadster) or the PT Cruiser (a sort of mini-minivan) are a match.

As the poll currently proves, most people would be willing to pay extra for the Mini, even though it costs, but is a similar car. Evidently, you get more for you buck with it.

HotRodSaint
08-19-05, 11:04 AM
The Mini very definitely is in the same class, but is at the very top of the price range.

So it's in the premium class, and not the entry level class?

Yea, thats the same. :suspect:

mccombie_5
08-19-05, 11:07 AM
The mini is overrated as far as i am concerned, i voted for it, but only because the rest suck

Night Wolf
08-19-05, 04:28 PM
ummm, I agree, the Mini Cooper is no way in the same class as an Aveo or that Honda thing...

Ralph
08-19-05, 05:30 PM
So it's in the premium class, and not the entry level class?

Yea, thats the same. :suspect:

:nono:

The Mini is the same size car (Class) but expensive with far more options in it. The Mini IS THE TOP LEVEL OF THE ENTRY CLASS. GET IT..

OTHERWISE, you you could say that Cadillac and Benz don't compete because Benz are MORE MONEY! :bigroll:

AGAIN...........the point is to see what people would buy or choose, and it looks like they would choose an upscale entry-level class vehicle WITH MORE OPTIONS.

Jesda
08-19-05, 07:27 PM
Mini = $$$, therefore not too economical. :)

I picked the Accent for its peppy engine, value for money, and good interior space.

Ralph
08-19-05, 08:15 PM
Mini = $$$, therefore not too economical. :)

"economical" FUEL wise. ;)

Just because you pay more for a certain economy car with options, it does not mean it is not still an "economy" car. Economy cars come in varying price ranges etc.

Accents are good quality cars now.

mccombie_5
08-19-05, 08:21 PM
"economical" FUEL wise. ;)

Just because you pay more for a certain economy car with options, it does not mean it is not still an "economy" car. Economy cars come in varying price ranges etc.

Accents are good quality cars now.

Yup

Vauxhall Astra=Economy

GSi Version, fast, but still economy

terrible one
08-20-05, 01:53 AM
Anyone got engine specs?

Night Wolf
08-20-05, 02:36 AM
:nono:

The Mini is the same size car (Class) but expensive with far more options in it. The Mini IS THE TOP LEVEL OF THE ENTRY CLASS. GET IT..

OTHERWISE, you you could say that Cadillac and Benz don't compete because Benz are MORE MONEY! :bigroll:

AGAIN...........the point is to see what people would buy or choose, and it looks like they would choose an upscale entry-level class vehicle WITH MORE OPTIONS.

Ralph, sorry bud, but I can't agree on this....

you are saying because a car is similar *physical size* then it is the same class?

really tho, when someone says, "ok, I have $15k, I want a brand new car to go back and fourth to work in, cheap as possible, I don't care about anything else" they think... Aveo, Accent, that Suzuki car etc... NOT Mini

really, they are not in the same class.... kinda the same as a Ford Taurus and a Mercedes C class are not in the same class, yet both can be bought for like $25k....

Night Wolf
08-20-05, 02:37 AM
Anyone got engine specs?

the latest news is 3 hampsters on a spinning wheel, but it is rumored you can upgrade to rats for some extra power.

danbuc
08-20-05, 03:41 AM
HAHAHA...that is awesome. I would have said Gerbel's but that's just one mans speculation...they could swing either way in the rodent category. If they are gonne use rats, they have to use the big one, that live in the sewers of NYC. With them in the car, it would be a contender againsts the a Ferrari...hehe. But seriously, it's tiny and it's going to be slow as all hell. It will probably make about 60-80hp max, and have a 1/4 mile time similar to my friend's CRX with run's a 19.6 and make 60hp. A real race car if you will.

Of course people will still buy it, and put spinner rims, fart cans, and wings on them. We all know it will happen, it's just a matter of time. Pretty soon you'll here stories of people in Cavaliers, destroying these things like we destroy Integra's and Mustangs and crap. Now I've got myself all excited, waiting to make fun of the first person I see with one, that has a fart can. Kinda makes me hope they bring it here now...hehe.

Ralph
08-20-05, 03:50 AM
Ralph, sorry bud, but I can't agree on this....

you are saying because a car is similar *physical size* then it is the same class?

really tho, when someone says, "ok, I have $15k, I want a brand new car to go back and fourth to work in, cheap as possible, I don't care about anything else" they think... Aveo, Accent, that Suzuki car etc... NOT Mini

really, they are not in the same class.... kinda the same as a Ford Taurus and a Mercedes C class are not in the same class, yet both can be bought for like $25k....

If you're talking about PRICE categories, then it's true, the Mini is different. But size-wise, I stand by the comparison. As I've mentioned before, I know several people who've test-driven all these cars as a group simply because they're looking specifically for a small car, and have considered paying the extra money. The point of including the Mini in the comparison is to see how much people are willing to trade off money for economy or value.

As for the Taurus/C-Class comparison, you must mean a USED C-Class, because I wasn't aware you could buy a new one for $25k. My point with the comparison is more like matching a CTS to an E-Class. Both cars are about the same size, but the Mercedes is on average certainly more expensive. Nonetheless, people do compare them as similar. This is a major reason why GM prices the CTS as such, because it gives it a value advantage over similar cars in its class.

If you compare on price alone, think of all the bizarre comparisons you'd get. Price comparisons are interesting too, but that's not ALWAYS what determines how people compare models. Size is very often a factor too.

So yes, if a car is the same size, it is in the same class. This is why some cars are considered "good deals" in a segment.

HotRodSaint
08-20-05, 12:05 PM
really, they are not in the same class.... kinda the same as a Ford Taurus and a Mercedes C class are not in the same class, yet both can be bought for like $25k....

He get's it.

Jesda
08-20-05, 12:12 PM
The money you spend on a Mini pretty much negates any money you'd ever save on fuel, which sort of bumps it out of the 'economy' class. I might say the same for the overpriced Prius. I think 'economy' refers to total value for money, on the sticker as well as at the pump.

Of course, this thread is about 'smaller' cars, not just 'economy'

HotRodSaint
08-20-05, 12:15 PM
As for the Taurus/C-Class comparison, you must mean a USED C-Class, because I wasn't aware you could buy a new one for $25k.

So are you comparing used Mini's with new Aveo's? :hmm:

If size alone makes new car's in the same class (your measuring stick), then the Taurus and C-Class (actually I think it would be the E-class) would be crossed shopped and compared to each other in all the magazines.

But they aren't. Why? One is an entry level car and the other is a luxury car. You could fully load a Taurus, and it will never enter the luxury segment.

It's that same with the Aveo and the Mini. One is an 'economy' subcompact and the other is a 'premium' subcompact. The industry developed these labels for a reason, to help eliminate confusion by grading cars based on size alone.

HotRodSaint
08-20-05, 12:22 PM
So yes, if a car is the same size, it is in the same class.

The EPA classifies the Aston Martin DB8 Volante as a mini-subcompact. So it should be on you list of other mini-subcompacts.

terrible one
08-20-05, 12:53 PM
I think I would go with the Mongoose option.

Night Wolf
08-20-05, 06:32 PM
You can also get the Mini with the turbo (supercharger?) either way, that isn't even offered on any of the other mentioned cars....

the Mini is a car someone buys to have fun with, go fast, handle the turns like nothing else, just like the origanal. Not to commute back and fourth to work... not saying it dosn't happen, because it does... just not very often.

Ralph
08-20-05, 06:35 PM
You can also get the Mini with the turbo (supercharger?) either way, that isn't even offered on any of the other mentioned cars....


Correct, a supercharger, and that's precisely my point, it offers more but is still DEFINATELY in the same size class.

mccombie_5
08-20-05, 06:36 PM
You can also get the Mini with the turbo (supercharger?) either way, that isn't even offered on any of the other mentioned cars....

the Mini is a car someone buys to have fun with, go fast, handle the turns like nothing else, just like the origanal. Not to commute back and fourth to work... not saying it dosn't happen, because it does... just not very often.

Supercharger, i agree tis a fun car, but as a commuter car i would want the BIGGEST most comfortable car i could afford, minis are not comfortable cars at all

Ralph
08-20-05, 06:41 PM
So are you comparing used Mini's with new Aveo's? :hmm:



It's that same with the Aveo and the Mini. One is an 'economy' subcompact and the other is a 'premium' subcompact. The industry developed these labels for a reason, to help eliminate confusion by grading cars based on size alone.

Now YOU seem to be comparing used Minis to new Aveos! Stop putting words in my mouth please.

You made my point, whether "economy"subcompact or "premium" subcompact, they arer BOTH nonetheless, SUBCOMPACT CARS IN THE SAME CLASS!

Everyone will have their own personal feeling on this, but one thing cannot be denied, most people compare cars by size. That is why FOR THE THIRD TIME now, I mentioned some people I know testing the Mini ALSO because it is in the same class. Whether it has more options of not, it is a subcompact vehicle.

Take that as you like it.

Ralph
08-20-05, 06:44 PM
The EPA classifies the Aston Martin DB8 Volante as a mini-subcompact. So it should be on you list of other mini-subcompacts.

If the EPA classifies the AM as a mini-subcompact, why should I have a problem classifying it as such, especially if it were the same size as a Mini. Size class would be identical or very close, so what...if it will have more options then it is simply "premium" "top-end" of that minisub-compact CLASS. Still a minisub-compact.

You might even be able to get away with saying the new Mercedes Benz E-class turbo diesel is an economy car, despite it being the size of a Cadillac STS or similar.

I explained my position HERE, to the careful reader......and I'm not alone in the size comparisons, but everyone has their own preference....

"If you're talking about PRICE categories, then it's true, the Mini is different. But size-wise, I stand by the comparison. As I've mentioned before, I know several people who've test-driven all these cars as a group simply because they're looking specifically for a small car, and have considered paying the extra money. The point of including the Mini in the comparison is to see how much people are willing to trade off money for economy or value."

Ralph
08-20-05, 06:49 PM
Yup

Vauxhall Astra=Economy

GSi Version, fast, but still economy

HE GETS IT.

Jesda
08-20-05, 06:52 PM
Well, what the US EPA defines is a bit different from what consumers define. The Mini is a premium car, regardless of size. The EPA doesnt think about your monthly payment or the cost of parts. They just look at size and fuel economy.

An MB E-TD is expensive!

Ralph
08-20-05, 06:58 PM
They just look at size and fuel economy.


There ya go! SIZE! The major stipulation for CLASS.

Those Benz's are 70K here to buy, the exact same price as a nicely loaded DTS (starting price) but it only sips 6.4 litres per 100 kms on the highway!!

So people can decide for themselves how they want to classify this Benz, and likely they will classify it in the same class as a Cadillac or Lexus, etc. based on SIZE above all things.

mccombie_5
08-20-05, 07:07 PM
There ya go! SIZE!

Those Benz's are 70K here to buy, the exact same price as a nicely loaded DTS (starting price) but it only sips 6.4 litres per 100 kms on the highway!!

So people can decide for themselves how they want to classify this Benz, and likely they will classify it in the same class as a Cadillac or Lexus, etc. based on SIZE above all things.

Yeah, when i buy a new car, i look at what size it is first, it doesnt work if you do it pricewise

If you doit on the cost of the vehicle, you would be competing a Land Rover Discovery against a Mercedes Benz C200

Not likely competitors are they?

Jesda
08-20-05, 07:15 PM
I think youre all correct.

The exception to the rule is in the mind of the consumer (if not the law). Folks who buy with the primary intent of saving fuel also look to save money in other areas, like maintenance, depreciation, and purchase cost. The assumption is that folks who can't afford nice things also can't afford to fill a 25-gallon tank every 300 miles. This is why the Miata, Mini, and S2000 compete in one segment of the economy car market while the Rio, Accent, Aveo, Cobalt, Corolla, and Civic compete in another.

However, this is an issue for marketing folks to consider, not something that concerns the EPA.

Ralph
08-20-05, 07:34 PM
I think youre all correct.

The exception to the rule is in the mind of the consumer (if not the law). Folks who buy with the primary intent of saving fuel also look to save money in other areas, like maintenance, depreciation, and purchase cost. The assumption is that folks who can't afford nice things also can't afford to fill a 25-gallon tank every 300 miles. This is why the Miata, Mini, and S2000 compete in one segment of the economy car market while the Rio, Accent, Aveo, Cobalt, Corolla, and Civic compete in another.

However, this is an issue for marketing folks to consider, not something that concerns the EPA.

Well said.

HotRodSaint
08-20-05, 07:53 PM
These are the market classifications that the industry uses for the car's we have been discussing. They use these classifications so that people don't call the Diesel E-klasse an economy car (it's classified as Upscale/Luxury and not economy for those that care to know.)

Small cars
Budget
Chevrolet Aveo
Hyundai Accent
Kia Rio
Toyota Echo
Economy
Chevrolet Cavalier
Chevrolet Cobalt
Dodge Neon
Ford Focus
Hyundai Elantra
Kia Spectra
Mazda Mazda3
Mitsubishi Lancer
Nissan Sentra
Pontiac Sunfire
Pontiac Pursuit
Saturn Ion
Scion xA
Scion xB
Scion tC
Suzuki Aerio
Suzuki Forenza
Toyota Corolla
Toyota Matrix

And this is where the industry places the Mini.

Sporty cars
Touring
Acura RSX
Ford Mustang
Audi A3
Hyundai Tiburon
Mazda Miata
Mazda RX8
Mini Cooper
Mitsubishi Eclipse
Nissan 350Z
Pontiac GTO
Pontiac Solstice (2006)
Saturn Sky (2007)
Toyota Celica
Toyota MR2 Spyder
Volkswagen Cabrio
Premium
Audi TT
BMW Z4
Chrysler Crossfire
Chevrolet Corvette
Ford Thunderbird
Honda S2000
Lotus Elise
Mercedes-Benz CLK
Mercedes-Benz SLK
Porsche Boxster
Upper Premium
Acura NSX
BMW 6 series
Cadillac XLR
Dodge Viper
Jaguar XK
Lexus SC 430
Mercedes-Benz CL
Mercedes-Benz SL
Porsche Carrera GT3
Ultra Luxury
Aston Martin all models
Bentley Continental GT
Ferrari all models
Ford GT
Lamborghini Murcielago
Maserati Gransport
Mercedes-Benz SLR McClaren
Porsche Carrera GT
Porsche 911 turbo GT2

HotRodSaint
08-20-05, 07:55 PM
I think youre all correct.

So you think people will cross shop the Chevy Aveo with the Mini? :stirpot:

And here I was thinking you got it, when you said the Mini and the Miata compete. Or was that someone else?

Ralph
08-20-05, 07:56 PM
So you think people will cross shop the Chevy Aveo with the Mini? :stirpot:

I already told you I know people that have.

What is the BIG DEAL??

Ralph
08-20-05, 08:54 PM
These are the market classifications that the industry uses for the car's we have been discussing. They use these classifications so that people don't call the Diesel E-klasse an economy car (it's classified as Upscale/Luxury and not economy for those that care to know.)

Small cars
Budget
Chevrolet Aveo
Hyundai Accent
Kia Rio
Toyota Echo
Economy
Chevrolet Cavalier
Chevrolet Cobalt
Dodge Neon
Ford Focus
Hyundai Elantra
Kia Spectra
Mazda Mazda3
Mitsubishi Lancer
Nissan Sentra
Pontiac Sunfire
Pontiac Pursuit
Saturn Ion
Scion xA
Scion xB
Scion tC
Suzuki Aerio
Suzuki Forenza
Toyota Corolla
Toyota Matrix

And this is where the industry places the Mini.

Sporty cars
Touring
Acura RSX
Ford Mustang
Audi A3
Hyundai Tiburon
Mazda Miata
Mazda RX8
Mini Cooper
Mitsubishi Eclipse
Nissan 350Z
Pontiac GTO
Pontiac Solstice (2006)
Saturn Sky (2007)
Toyota Celica
Toyota MR2 Spyder
Volkswagen Cabrio
Premium
Audi TT
BMW Z4
Chrysler Crossfire
Chevrolet Corvette
Ford Thunderbird
Honda S2000
Lotus Elise
Mercedes-Benz CLK
Mercedes-Benz SLK
Porsche Boxster
Upper Premium
Acura NSX
BMW 6 series
Cadillac XLR
Dodge Viper
Jaguar XK
Lexus SC 430
Mercedes-Benz CL
Mercedes-Benz SL
Porsche Carrera GT3
Ultra Luxury
Aston Martin all models
Bentley Continental GT
Ferrari all models
Ford GT
Lamborghini Murcielago
Maserati Gransport
Mercedes-Benz SLR McClaren
Porsche Carrera GT
Porsche 911 turbo GT2

No, I don't believe the industry uses these seemingly irrelevant classifications, and consumers certainly don't.

My point again was with the CTS and the E class. This is the most appropriate example. Both are in the same class consumers look at both, yet one is at the BOTTOM of the price class, and one is more.

It's true that different people have different criteria for buying a car. But in MY comparison I was interested in knowing what is important to people when buying a small car. What are peoples priorities.....and how will the new Honda find it's place in this.

mccombie_5
08-20-05, 09:14 PM
These are the market classifications that the industry uses for the car's we have been discussing. They use these classifications so that people don't call the Diesel E-klasse an economy car (it's classified as Upscale/Luxury and not economy for those that care to know.)

Small cars
Budget
Chevrolet Aveo
Hyundai Accent
Kia Rio
Toyota Echo
Economy
Chevrolet Cavalier
Chevrolet Cobalt
Dodge Neon
Ford Focus
Hyundai Elantra
Kia Spectra
Mazda Mazda3
Mitsubishi Lancer
Nissan Sentra
Pontiac Sunfire
Pontiac Pursuit
Saturn Ion
Scion xA
Scion xB
Scion tC
Suzuki Aerio
Suzuki Forenza
Toyota Corolla
Toyota Matrix

And this is where the industry places the Mini.

Sporty cars
Touring
Acura RSX
Ford Mustang
Audi A3
Hyundai Tiburon
Mazda Miata
Mazda RX8
Mini Cooper
Mitsubishi Eclipse
Nissan 350Z
Pontiac GTO
Pontiac Solstice (2006)
Saturn Sky (2007)
Toyota Celica
Toyota MR2 Spyder
Volkswagen Cabrio
Premium
Audi TT
BMW Z4
Chrysler Crossfire
Chevrolet Corvette
Ford Thunderbird
Honda S2000
Lotus Elise
Mercedes-Benz CLK
Mercedes-Benz SLK
Porsche Boxster
Upper Premium
Acura NSX
BMW 6 series
Cadillac XLR
Dodge Viper
Jaguar XK
Lexus SC 430
Mercedes-Benz CL
Mercedes-Benz SL
Porsche Carrera GT3
Ultra Luxury
Aston Martin all models
Bentley Continental GT
Ferrari all models
Ford GT
Lamborghini Murcielago
Maserati Gransport
Mercedes-Benz SLR McClaren
Porsche Carrera GT
Porsche 911 turbo GT2

You got that last category wrong HRS

Ultra Luxury isnt those, they are Supercars

Ultra Luxury is:
Maybach 62
Rolls Royce Phantom
Bentley Arnage R
Mercedes S500
BMW 760iL
VW Phaeton W12
Jaguar Super V8

HotRodSaint
08-20-05, 09:39 PM
You got that last category wrong HRS

They aren't my categories, they are from Automotive News, the US/European trade magazine for the automobile industry.

Upscale cars
Near luxury
Acura TL
BMW 3 series
Buick Park Avenue
Cadillac CTS
Chrysler 300C
Infiniti G35
Jaguar X-type
Lexus ES 300
Lexus IS 300/Sport Cross
Lincoln LS
Mercedes-Benz C class
Saab 9-5
Volvo 50 series
Volvo 60 series
Volvo 70 series
Luxury
Acura 3.5RL
Audi A6
Audi allroad
BMW 5 series
Cadillac DeVille
Cadillac DTS (2006)
Cadillac Seville
Cadillac STS
Infiniti M45
Infiniti Q45
Jaguar S-type
Lexus GS 300/430
Lexus LS 430
Lincoln Town Car
Mercedes-Benz E class
Volkswagen Phaeton
Volvo 80 series
Premium
Audi A8
BMW 7 series
Jaguar XJ sedan
Maserati Quattroporte sedan
Mercedes-Benz S class
Ultra
Bentley Arnage sedan
Maybach 57/62 sedans
Rolls-Royce Phantom sedan

mccombie_5
08-20-05, 09:41 PM
They aren't my categories, they are from Automotive News, the US/European trade magazine for the automobile industry.


Sorry about that then, in that case they still got their models muddled.

HotRodSaint
08-20-05, 10:00 PM
No, I don't believe the industry uses these seemingly irrelevant classifications...

Maybe you should subscribe to an industry magazine and become more informed.

http://www.autonews.com/images/dataCenter/2638.pdf

I'm not going to argue with someone who isn't in the industry, doesn't read the industry trade press and thinks the Aveo and the Mini are classified the same by the industry.

Believe what you want. The industry uses these terms to help describe the intended market that transcends the size of the car.

So when you've met with engineers, designers and product planning at Ford, GM, Mitsubishi, VW, Nissan, Toyota, Subaru, Proton, Lear, Johnson Controls and ASC, or when you have attended the press days at the Detroit, LA, New York and Geneva Auto shows or you have exhibited at Automechanika, SEMA or Tokyo Auto Salon, then tell me about how the auto industry works.

HotRodSaint
08-20-05, 10:01 PM
Sorry about that then, in that case they still got their models muddled.

No worries mate!!

Cheers

mccombie_5
08-20-05, 10:03 PM
Woah woah calm down people, lets agree to disagree?

HotRodSaint
08-20-05, 10:18 PM
Woah woah calm down people, lets agree to disagree?

Did I mention I visited the McLaren showroom on Park Avenue (?) in London and bought a necktie at the Bentley showroom nearby?

mccombie_5
08-20-05, 10:32 PM
Did I mention I visited the McLaren showroom on Park Avenue (?) in London and bought a necktie at the Bentley showroom nearby?

Wow! Ive never been to the illustrious McLaren delaership, i have however bought from Bentley in the mid 90s,they had service like no other car delaer ive ever been in.
When were you in London?

HotRodSaint
08-20-05, 11:11 PM
When were you in London?

I've been there twice, but I couldn't tell you where I stayed. Both were tourist class hotels near tube stations. One was walking distance from a Michelin service station turned cafe that was really cool.

I did enjoy it, and it's one of my favorite cities in the world. I especially liked the used CD's stores and antique stores.

Oh yea, and I called on Marcos with a client too.

Ralph
08-21-05, 12:01 AM
Maybe you should subscribe to an industry magazine and become more informed.

http://www.autonews.com/images/dataCenter/2638.pdf

I'm not going to argue with someone who isn't in the industry, doesn't read the industry trade press and thinks the Aveo and the Mini are classified the same by the industry.

Believe what you want. The industry uses these terms to help describe the intended market that transcends the size of the car.

So when you've met with engineers, designers and product planning at Ford, GM, Mitsubishi, VW, Nissan, Toyota, Subaru, Proton, Lear, Johnson Controls and ASC, or when you have attended the press days at the Detroit, LA, New York and Geneva Auto shows or you have exhibited at Automechanika, SEMA or Tokyo Auto Salon, then tell me about how the auto industry works.

WOW!!! You talked to engineers, designers and planners!!! Can I shake your hand?? Can I have your autograph?? Your my new HERO!! I guess everyone else on the forum are just too stupid to have the honour of discussing vehicles with you, we're not worthy, there's the door....

"You are not going to argue with someone who isn't in the industry" yet why do you keep scurrying back to my threads and posting your "my binky is bigger than yours" childish comments??? You simply cannot accept others' opinions and have proven this time and time again. I'm actually starting to feel sorry for you and your quest to flame others. You do not consider logical points concerning how cars are purchased meaning what people look for. That was the purpose of this thread and yet you have issue with anything that does not agree with you. I do my fair share of reading let me tell you and I think that someone is still "smarting" because they were recently "owned" on certain threads that shall go nameless. I think someone needs to grow up as well and gain a level head about ANY DIFFERING OPINION other than YOUR OWN. If you were as smart as you say you would avoid "arguing" over such a petty issue, because only "petty" people do as such. I'm on this forum to discuss vehicles and provide opinions based on KNOWLEDGE and learn from others. I cannot have a rational discussion with someone who will not even consider the examples I've discussed. Again.....there's the door......

The "industry" does NOT dictate how, what and why people buy cars. People have their own preferences and pre-requisites for Size and Cost, and Options, etc. The industry is obviously out of touch with people judging by their classifications, and I've given MORE than enough logical examples that you cannot answer within ANY reason! (why do I bother???)

I'll consider your illogical point about your experience-packed life in the automotive business when you stop pretending to "know it all" in those ridiculous Canada threads you post. When were you last in Canada??? You know all about Canadian Parliament, and have posted threads displaying such, so do not pretend to lecture me on certain issues. (by your example of "talking" to engineers, you should know NOTHING about this country then) I'll keep my logic and how people buy cars by class and not what the "industry" dictates and you can keep your pretend, ignorant knowledge which is not correct, even by the EPA standards. An example, "Porsche" in the Ultra-luxury category, what a joke!

You need to be able to accept that others will have opinions and OFTEN they will be CORRECT! I am tired of providing VERY logical examples only to have them mocked by a self-proclaimed "EXPERT." I like to defend my posts without thinking I'm a "know it all" unlike someone else. I use logic and provide examples to prove my points like the CTS E class example, not by insulting others.

Thank you for turning another one of my threads into one of your petty "arguements." This would have been an interesting thread.

Ralph
08-21-05, 12:09 AM
Ultra Luxury
Aston Martin all models
Bentley Continental GT
Ferrari all models
Ford GT
Lamborghini Murcielago
Maserati Gransport
Mercedes-Benz SLR McClaren
Porsche Carrera GT
Porsche 911 turbo GT2

:wtf: :histeric:

Ralph
08-21-05, 12:15 AM
Woah woah calm down people, lets agree to disagree?

That is NOT possible with some people, and some "people" only look for confrontation...

I've given him more than enough explaination, and examples for this thread, yet it has to go on and on........ :bonkers: Even when others correct him it doesn't end there... :shhh:

Ralph
08-21-05, 12:22 AM
I'm not going to argue with someone who isn't in the industry

Yet, here you are :shhh: :hmm:

HotRodSaint
08-21-05, 11:59 AM
Recap:


Since when is the Mini part of the Econo group?

And I agree, the Mini is in a seperate class as evidenced by it's higher starting price.

The Mini very definitely is in the same class, but is at the very top of the price range.

So it's in the premium class, and not the entry level class?

Yea, thats the same. :suspect:

ummm, I agree, the Mini Cooper is no way in the same class as an Aveo or that Honda thing...

The Mini is the same size car (Class) but expensive with far more options in it. The Mini IS THE TOP LEVEL OF THE ENTRY CLASS.

Mini = $$$, therefore not too economical. :)

Just because you pay more for a certain economy car with options, it does not mean it is not still an "economy" car. Economy cars come in varying price ranges etc.

Ralph, sorry bud, but I can't agree on this....

you are saying because a car is similar *physical size* then it is the same class?

So yes, if a car is the same size, it is in the same class. This is why some cars are considered "good deals" in a segment.

If size alone makes new car's in the same class (your measuring stick), then the Taurus and C-Class (actually I think it would be the E-class) would be crossed shopped and compared to each other in all the magazines.

Everyone will have their own personal feeling on this, but one thing cannot be denied, most people compare cars by size.

You might even be able to get away with saying the new Mercedes Benz E-class turbo diesel is an economy car...

"If you're talking about PRICE categories, then it's true, the Mini is different. But size-wise, I stand by the comparison."

The Mini is a premium car, regardless of size.

There ya go! SIZE! The major stipulation for CLASS.

This is why the Miata, Mini, and S2000 compete in one segment of the economy car market while the Rio, Accent, Aveo, Cobalt, Corolla, and Civic compete in another.

Well said.

These are the market classifications that the industry uses for the car's we have been discussing. They use these classifications so that people don't call the Diesel E-klasse an economy car...

No, I don't believe the industry uses these seemingly irrelevant classifications...

Believe what you want. The industry uses these terms to help describe the intended market that transcends the size of the car.

They aren't my categories, they are from Automotive News, the US/European trade magazine for the automobile industry.

The industry is obviously out of touch with people judging by their classifications...

I'll keep my logic and how people buy cars by class and not what the "industry" dictates and you can keep your pretend, ignorant knowledge which is not correct, even by the EPA standards. An example, "Porsche (Carrera GT and 911 Turbo GT2)" in the Ultra-luxury category, what a joke!

I wasn't even addressing you in my first post, I was merely agreeing with "Playdrv4me". "Night Wolf" also agreed with 'our' view, and "Jesda" showed he had a very good grasp on the auto industry classifications while remaining very diplomatic.

So it is with complete amazement that I find you posted this:


Even when others correct him it doesn't end there...

HotRodSaint
08-21-05, 12:31 PM
You do not consider logical points concerning how cars are purchased meaning what people look for.

Do you know why the automakers sub-categorize car's beyond size?

Because the Mini is cross-shopped by Miata owners, among others. And if they only classified them as 2 seaters or sub-compact hatchbacks, they'd never understand the consumers who cross-shop and why.


I cannot have a rational discussion with someone who will not even consider the examples I've discussed.

Did you really want me to rationally address your statement that the Deisel E-klasse could be considered an economy car?


The "industry" does NOT dictate how, what and why people buy cars. People have their own preferences and pre-requisites for Size and Cost, and Options, etc.

You are right. But they spend alot of money trying to figure out how, what and why, so they can know more about their targeted market segment.


The industry is obviously out of touch with people judging by their classifications...

Nothing is perfect, but I see the logic in their classifications, even if you don't understand why the Porsche Carrera GT and Turbo GT2 made the Sporty Cars/Ultra Luxury classification.


...and I've given MORE than enough logical examples that you cannot answer within ANY reason!

I'll consider your illogical point...

I think you way overuse the word logic.


When were you last in Canada??? You know all about Canadian Parliament, and have posted threads displaying such, so do not pretend to lecture me on certain issues.

Not sure what this has to do with car's, but I was pretty shocked to learn recently that your PM can appoint a supreme court judge without any consent from parliment. Kinda scary to me. But I didn't feel the need to post it anywhere or throw it in your face here, until now.


I'll keep my logic and how people buy cars by class and not what the "industry" dictates and you can keep your pretend, ignorant knowledge which is not correct, even by the EPA standards. An example, "Porsche" in the Ultra-luxury category, what a joke!

There you go again, misusing that word logic.

Shall I post the EPA standards for you? Do you know how they determine these EPA standards without using google?

Have you figured out why the Carrera GT and Turbo GT2 were classified as Sporty Cars/Ultra Luxury?


You need to be able to accept that others will have opinions and OFTEN they will be CORRECT!

If you were OFTEN CORECT, then we wouldn't OFTEN disgree. It's because that OFTEN your logic is based on conjecture and not fact.


I am tired of providing VERY logical examples only to have them mocked by a self-proclaimed "EXPERT."

Should it really take a self-proclaimed "EXPERT", to show you the lack of logic in the thinking that it could be argued that the Deisel E-Klasse MBZ is an economy car?


I use logic and provide examples to prove my points like the CTS E class example, not by insulting others.

And yet, here you are insulting me and not displaying any logic.


This would have been an interesting thread.

It would have, if you could have you accepted the fact (and the opinions of many others) that size is not the sole determining factor in how a car is classified.

danbuc
08-21-05, 12:39 PM
Honestly...who gives a damn what class the Mini is in? 99% of us will probably never buy one. Both sides of the so called "argument" here, have a point. The mini is a sub-compact car, which places it "IN TERMS OF SIZE" in the same class as other sub-compact cars, such as the Civic, Accent,...ect. On the other hand, it's cost places it "IN TERMS OF PRICE" in the same class as more expensive, and larger car's such as the Miata, Eclipse, Mustang...ect.

This being said, the Mini falls into TWO classes. That of the Sub-compact car, AND the more expensive Sporty/Touring car.

As I said before, who give's a damn where it is. I personally would classify it more along the lines a Sub-compact, and not a Sporty/Touring car only because it is small as all hell.

Ralph does make a excellent point about the fact that alot of people, look at the size of the car first, and then look at the price. Other people, pick a particular price range, and see what kind of vehicle they can afford. It works both ways.

I would also have to agree that those "Industry" classifications in no way reflect real world decision's in car buying. If I was looking for a Sporty/Touring car, I would NOT be comparing a Mazda Miata to a GTO. It just doesn't happen. If I was looking for a Near Luxury car, I also would not compare an Infiniti G35 to a Buick Park Ave...this also does not happen.

I'm just saying that everyone here, has mentioned one part, of the entire picture. People compare car's based on Price, and Size. No one classification can suite any particular car. It just isn't gonna work. Too many car's, fit into too many categories to make up an "Industry" list like that. If in fact that is what the "Industry" is using to determine which car's are comparible in the market, than as Ralph said, they are really out of touch with the consumer.

HotRodSaint
08-21-05, 12:53 PM
Bringing this back to the Honda Fit/Jazz, the Honda Civic is already in the 13k price range. So I doubt they will bring a smaller car below it and charge a 'premium' for it. With the Civic Si hatch, they already have a competitor for those that might be inclined to cross-shop the Mini.

The Fit/Jazz will be a 1.5 liter economy car (as in entry level price range) for those that would consider other entry level economy car's.

Personally, I'd buy a Mini but never consider purchasing any of the other so-called economy car's on this list.

danbuc
08-21-05, 01:10 PM
A cheaper/smaller Civic with an even smaller/less powerful engine might be a hard sell. I mean, the base Civic is already not very powerful, and small. Poepl are buying car's liek the Aveo though, which is probably abotu as close as you'll get to this Honda Fit/Jazz thingy. The Mini is nice, but I just couldn't see myself having a practical use for a car that small. I mean, you can barely fit four people in it, and with stuff in the back, you can probably only fit two. If I ever did consider it, I'd probably look and see what else I can ind for the price that's bigger though, since I don't like small car's to begin with.

HotRodSaint
08-21-05, 01:27 PM
A cheaper/smaller Civic with an even smaller/less powerful engine might be a hard sell. I mean, the base Civic is already not very powerful, and small.

The Civic is the best selling car in it's class and the success of Scion, is making everyone look seriously at this market segment.

Rising fuel costs might be part of it too.

danbuc
08-21-05, 01:34 PM
That's is a good point. I suppose there will always be a market for a tiny Honda that get's 40mpg. I have no doubt that if they brought it here, they would sell. Even if it was a total POS, people would still buy it because it's a Honda. That 1.5L engine is going to be a real dog, even with a manual.

On second thought, people can get these right now. All they have to do is go out and find a nice Honda CRX. They were a tiny two seater with a 1.5L engine. My friend has one, and he still get's liek 35mpg even when he beats the s**t out fo it. Of coure, it doesn't actually go anywhere when he does this, but that's not the point...hehe.

Ralph
08-21-05, 05:31 PM
There is no ONE standard that the entire automotive world uses. The EPA uses fuel economy, etc. etc.

The Miata is not in the same category......so what? Everyone has a different criteria for purchasing and I have made that point at least 4 times now.

I gave the best example with the E-class and the CTS. It has still been avoided because it is correct.

I was the first to use sources like Car Connection, Car Design News, etc. in this forum, and some others, and those who like to imply in this thread that I don't read enough trade journals have no problem using and citing the likes of Car connection AFTER me, and also using them after I introduced them. But I don't appreciate when that is used against me or that it is implied that I am not intelligent somehow because I have not met an automotive engineer. That is pure SILLYNESS. Many intelligent people here who have never met Einstein also, so what..

I don't know how many times I can say this, PEOPLE will use their OWN criteria for purchasing a car, that is the most simple true statement one can make and if someone has a problem with it, shrug it off and don't go looking for a war, that's not what car discussion is about. (When MC disagreed with him, he just said "cheers"-different than with me, yes? Proof of favoring confrontation with certain people)

If someone has issue with this, maybe they don't belong here, or should not take things so ferociously, or simply avoid my threads/posts. (remember, I'm not smart enough because I never met an automotive engineer)

This thread should have been locked for the good of the forum. But I defended and stood by my points and examples I have given because they are logical and applicable to most people despite what any "industry" dictates. If someone has such intense issue with me, and are so wise, they should avoid my threads alltogether, but that never seems to happen does it..it is very nice around here, but it is impossible to reason with someone who has a "personal vendetta" against another. This constant bickering MUST STOP! Everyone must learn a limit as to when to STOP posting on a thread, because any more can be construed as flamming. In this case, after post #22 nothing should have occurred (or did not have to be posted) and this thread should have died a long time ago. It would have died peacefully with everyone understanding that we all have differing opinions and accept that simple fact.

That is all.

HotRodSaint
08-21-05, 06:52 PM
I was the first to use sources like Car Connection...and those who like to imply in this thread that I don't read enough trade journals have no problem using and citing the likes of Car connection AFTER me, and also using them after I introduced them.

Would you like to bet money on that one? :bigroll:

Here's an early useage of Car Connection from me:
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=21616&postcount=1

You got an earlier useage than that you can provide?

Even though you began using Car Connection after me, I would never have posted a claim to be the first and that you were copying me. :bonkers:

HotRodSaint
08-21-05, 07:21 PM
The EPA uses fuel economy, etc. etc.

The EPA 'measures' fuel economy. They use interior volume to determine a car's size.

HotRodSaint
08-21-05, 07:45 PM
There is no ONE standard that the entire automotive world uses.

You might want to subscribe to Ward's and read the World Motor Vehicle Data Book, before you say stuff like that.

http://wardsauto.com

weister42
08-22-05, 01:25 AM
What kind of name is Fit? Might as well call it Weak.

Why can't they spent their money on a better hybird/electrical engine instead of producing ever-smaller-and-ugly-looking metal cans?

Playdrv4me
08-22-05, 02:48 AM
This thread has probably run its course at this point so Im going to go ahead and close it.