: 1997 STS - Long crank/start times - (Advice / Ideas)



STS_FirstCar_Love
03-18-14, 11:50 PM
Hey guys I just wanted to know if anyone has seen this problem or has any idea's its very interesting, here is exactly what is going on.

Start the car - RPM's jump to about 1.5 for maybe 1 second drops to 750 and surges to 1k for 5 seconds then resets back to normal 750 RPM idle. (This all happens in maybe 3-7 seconds).
This happens if the car was sitting for maybe 15 mins or more, but if I stop it pump gas and get back its not noticeable.

No Codes Aside from Compressor code (just needs a new clutch) - This code has been here forever its never posed a problem.
Zero problems after this 5 seconds starting, perfect acceleration nothing at all.

Recently: All top-ups are done with the instructions from my manual
Woke up to transmission leak lost maybe 1/2 quart tighten the line and topped with dexron VI (fluid was nice pink color)
Spilled about 1 quart of power steering fluid looking for the transmission leak (Dont yell this is my first car, topped it up)

Things to note:
New spark plugs / wires & battery, cleaned EGR valve, idle air intake valve - oil at 13% life (changing soon)

I'm taking it in tomorrow at 9am regardless but having some idea's might help myself or the mechanic.

Thanks so much everyone!!

MoistCabbage
03-19-14, 12:39 AM
When was the TB last cleaned?

STS_FirstCar_Love
03-19-14, 01:29 AM
I did it in September when I got the car, but I am planning to do it along with my oil change and valve cleans in the next 10 days.

I've updated the OP

Thank you for your advice though! I will check it out if the mechanic doesn't find the problem.

Submariner409
03-19-14, 09:35 AM
On cold start your engine should fast idle at about 1200 for 15 - 30 seconds, drop to 950 or so for about a minute, then down to normal 650 idle.

Ambient air temp will change the times ^^ somewhat.

STS_FirstCar_Love
03-19-14, 01:12 PM
So not sure if its my battery but I have a 850CCA Ac Delco in there and I've never had it do that even at -30C/-26F, it does do the spike to 1.5k for 3 seconds then down to 1k for 7 seconds then to about 700~750 normal idle (at -30C or -26F, anything at 0C/32F or hotter it does all that in about 3 seconds).

My situation is its spiking to 1.5k for a second, then drops to 750 then surges to 1k for 5 seconds then goes back to 700~750. It is also taking longer cranking to get it going, its now about 15C or 60F in my garage and it does this or out side 0C or 32F it still does the same thing. Temperature seems to have no baring on the situation from what I can see.

STS_FirstCar_Love
03-19-14, 03:41 PM
It seems from the mechanic I have a crack MAF sensor, I'm not sure what exactly is cracked I'll have to take a look when I get the car back. Estimating 800$ for parts and labour I think that's a bit high but I could be wrong anyways ill take a look when I get the car back.

Thanks for the advice guys!

Submariner409
03-19-14, 05:14 PM
A used MAF is less than $40 and 20 minutes of labor. Yours is bolted directly to the TB face.

"Cracked MAF" is a LOOOOONG stretch .....................

You could always pull any set diagnostic trouble codes from the car's built-in scanner/reader/memory - right in the instrument panel. A "cracked MAF" is an emissions fault - No SES lights ???

STS_FirstCar_Love
03-19-14, 05:40 PM
That's exactly what I thought, I think the dude talking on the phone has no clue what the mechanic said or they are trying to rip me off. There are absolutely no codes or lights unfortunately. That is why I took it to the mechanic because whenever I see any codes (I check once a day) I just use this amazing forums and usually find some information about what it might be and how to fix it.

Just to double check when we talk codes we mean pressing the "OFF" and Passenger temperature "UP" button at the same time? Or is there another way to get more codes?

I'll update once I get the straight talk from the mechanic, I cannot thank you guys enough!!

STS_FirstCar_Love
03-19-14, 09:46 PM
Alright so boy was the mechanic RIGHT on the money the MAF is cracked to shit its barely holding on, I've order the whole assemble for tomorrow going to take it off and replace it. Sadly we dont have any scrappers or second hand stuff in kamloops so its 126$ brand new.

My only other option is to order it from the states for maybe 45$ and wait 2 weeks or more, I already assume that's not very good for my engine so unless someone suggest something else I'll be putting in a new MAF tomorrow.

If anyone knows any videos or guides or advice about doing it please let me know, but having cleaned the TB before I assume I just disconnect everything take the three bolts off and put it all back together?

Cheers!

Ranger
03-19-14, 09:52 PM
Yup. That all there is to it. Just don't drop those bolts.

STS_FirstCar_Love
03-20-14, 12:12 AM
Yup. That all there is to it. Just don't drop those bolts.

My buddy dropped one of those two stage bolts on the EGR valve last September, and man do I remember the amout of effort to find another (even the one I order from GM was wrong but it works).

Thank you so much guys!

Submariner409
03-20-14, 04:58 PM
Your MAF work and TB cleaning are all down in Cadillac Tech Tips - Google something like "cadillac forums 1997 seville maf replacement" and "cadillac forums 1997 seville throttlebody cleaning".

Here's your MAF, off the TB face. I cannot fathom how it got "cracked to shit".

Ranger
03-20-14, 09:46 PM
I cannot fathom how it got "cracked to shit".
Yeah, that would be tough to do, even intentionally.

STS_FirstCar_Love
03-21-14, 12:01 AM
Yeah, that would be tough to do, even intentionally.

I am not sure either but it is cracked, once I take it apart tomorrow ill see better and post some photos. I have the guides bookmark for TB cleaning and found the MAF replacement topic also, just wasn't sure if maybe their was a video or anything. Regardless I know ill figure it out so no need to discuss that any further.

STS_FirstCar_Love
03-21-14, 02:40 PM
Here she is in all her glory, talking to a friend this might have happened if I didn't tighten my bolts after I cleaned my TB last September, but who knows I don't think I would do something as foolish as to not tighten all the bolts properly. Unless things need to be torqued I always tighten them enough that they don't come off but wont strip when I try to remove it again.
195554195562195570

Ranger
03-21-14, 03:33 PM
Hard to imagine how under tightening could cause that.

Submariner409
03-21-14, 07:26 PM
Keep that MAF. After your engine is happy again, do some testing and figure out how hard a blow - fist or rubber hammer - it would take to break that thermoplastic composite case. :devil:

For future reference you might want to look at the CadillacHeaven used parts site - they ship worldwide, talk to Chris in Parts at Rippy Cadillac, over there >>>>> (Business hours, EDT), or work with www.car-part.com resellers.

rodnok01
03-21-14, 09:06 PM
Possible it wasn't squared up when tightened. I've seen a couple of those cracked over the years.

Ranger
03-21-14, 10:05 PM
:yeah: That's what I was thinking.

STS_FirstCar_Love
03-21-14, 11:36 PM
I wish I could keep it but we get charged a 93$ core charge, so I returned it. Thanks for the information now I know where to look for my parts, specially the two stage EGR valve bolt that GM dealer can't seem to find.

I made sure it was nice and tight this time! The old one was on tight and square from what I could tell, I mean hard to put it on wrong or your bolts wouldn't line up.

STS_FirstCar_Love
03-24-14, 12:49 AM
So with the MAF replaced I still have the problem, any Idea's?


http://youtu.be/ELszfulHxSk

Submariner409
03-24-14, 06:17 AM
Post #8 - Have you actually entered the diagnostic code display and watched the various modules scroll in alphabetical order while displaying any code(s) associated with each module ?

Where I'm headed is a possibly inaccurate TPS - Throttle Position Sensor - yet another finicky widget that is part of the throttlebody. It's monitored for function and position, sending throttle opening to the PCM for part of the fuel mixture control calculations.

STS_FirstCar_Love
03-24-14, 02:34 PM
Post #8 - Have you actually entered the diagnostic code display and watched the various modules scroll in alphabetical order while displaying any code(s) associated with each module ?

Where I'm headed is a possibly inaccurate TPS - Throttle Position Sensor - yet another finicky widget that is part of the throttlebody. It's monitored for function and position, sending throttle opening to the PCM for part of the fuel mixture control calculations.

Yeah I've pulled codes all the time and watch them all scroll by with no codes, that's why Im in such trouble. Usually if their is a code number I can look it up and figure out the problem.

Any recommendations for testing the TPS? The above video shows what my only problem is, the car runs perfectly once it starts up. It only does that when it has been sitting for awhile and the engine is cold.

STS_FirstCar_Love
03-26-14, 10:25 PM
Hey guys I figured this might be a better tread to start then using my old thread.

In the video below you will hear the problem I am having when starting the car, Ive noticed this happens when the car is sitting for awhile 30+ mins but not if I do two starts in lets say 5 minutes.

Replaced broken MAF, Cleaned TB, EGR, Sparkplugs / Wires replaced.
The biggest problem...No Codes!


http://youtu.be/ELszfulHxSk

rodnok01
03-26-14, 10:38 PM
Check the FPR(and FP) and for vacuum leaks, the TPS can be tested with a meter(per your other post) easily and may not set a code if flaky while in range acceptable.
FYI you should have continued the other thread and a mod should merge them.

Ranger
03-27-14, 11:31 AM
Threads merged. Multiple threads on the same subject will not help you. Neither do duplicate threads. Keep all related posts in the same thread.

STS_FirstCar_Love
03-28-14, 03:14 PM
I am very sorry about that did not mean to break any rules, I am just in love with my cadillac and it makes me upset when she is not running properly.

I was able to find this post of yours

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-tech-tips-how-fix/61600-how-check-faulty-fpr-fuel-pressure.html

I am trying to get the hose off the FPR (yellow arrow in your picture) but its hard plastic and I am worried that I might break it any suggestions for getting it off I already tried and noticed some wear on the plastic. I have the metal fuel rails btw!

Cheers!

Ranger
03-28-14, 03:24 PM
The yellow arrow is the fuel line aka fuel rail. DO NOT attempt to remove that. :tisk: That is a heat crimped, one time, permanent attachment. You will never reseal it. You pull the vacuum line (red arrow) to check the FPR.

Now, there was a recall for the '95 - '97 Northstars. If you still have a nylon fuel rail, get thee to a Cadillac dealer pronto and get it replaced with a stainless steel rail for free before you end up like this Eldo.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y299/WBucket/BarbequeTime.jpg

Submariner409
03-28-14, 03:38 PM
The plastic formed vacuum pipes are attached to the source and, in your case, FPR with rubber adapters. These may be brittle and hard. Twist it off anyway, and when/if the plastic line breaks (age, heat) any of them may be replaced with a length of proper sized vacuum hose off the Help! racks at parts stores. Replace the plastic line AND connectors with a single piece of vacuum hose.

I moved this post from your identical question down in Tech Tips. Questions do not go in Tips.

STS_FirstCar_Love
03-28-14, 08:31 PM
Hey guys I understand how the FPR works now thank you for the patients, I wanted to ask a question. First thing is it takes 4 weeks for a new FPR to arrive here so is there a way to clean it? I checked the nipple and no fuel leakage at all, when the engine is running I can feel the suction from the vacuum hose.

Second is just more of an information drop, when I press the gas pedal It starts but if not I have to crank for a bit (1-5sec), just reading through the thread mentioned earlier I wonder if it still might be the FPR or perhaps the fuel pump because when I turn the car on (engine off) I can head the pump going but only for a second.

Also the long crank times can happen after just minutes of the car being off.

Ranger
03-28-14, 10:04 PM
First thing is it takes 4 weeks for a new FPR to arrive here so is there a way to clean it? I checked the nipple and no fuel leakage at all
There is no way or need to clean the FPR. If it is not leaking, it's good. Forget about it.


when I press the gas pedal It starts but if not I have to crank for a bit (1-5sec)
Clean the TB and the IAC valve.

If you suspect the fuel pump, check the fuel pressure, but a weak fuel pump will cause driveability problems long before starting problems.

STS_FirstCar_Love
03-29-14, 12:53 AM
Alright I will forget about the FPR, and I did more research and my fuel pump is going off as normal according to many threads and websites.

I guess that the cracked MAF could have been letting in more dirt then usual, when I replaced the MAF I did clean the TB but I will take apart the IAC and double check the TB.

Cheers Ranger!

STS_FirstCar_Love
03-29-14, 11:04 PM
I cleaned everything again nice and shiny, I also looked up how to test my TPS and got back perfect readings of 5V on both lines, and the sensor is fine tried a new one still no codes or any change.

I'm at a bit of a loss thought maybe the TPS since my idle is at 850 but starts around 1100 for 30s on my 1997 Cadillac Seville, found a post about relearn TPS tried that but it didn't work. Anything specifically I might need to know.

STS_FirstCar_Love
03-30-14, 08:31 PM
So the idle rpm is back to normal, but I still have some odd rough idling in park or driving I cannot think of anything else. If anyone has any suggestions that would be good, going to flush and change transmission fluid and coolant hope that might help.

Ranger
03-30-14, 10:22 PM
Trans fluid has nothing to do with idle. Might just as well change your blinker fluid in hopes that will smooth it out.

rodnok01
03-30-14, 11:16 PM
When you changed the plugs were they the correct AC plugs?
Still could have a vacuum leak.

STS_FirstCar_Love
03-31-14, 03:19 PM
When you changed the plugs were they the correct AC plugs?
Still could have a vacuum leak.

Yeah I changed them about 10,000km ago all gapped at 0.60 as is stated under my hood. I could go and try the spray bottle test to find some vacuum leaks or if my wires are bad.

Thank you rod!

Ranger
03-31-14, 05:33 PM
They should be gaped to .050

STS_FirstCar_Love
03-31-14, 08:20 PM
They should be gaped to .050

Why does my hood say 0.060 and my manual say the same thing, I know everyone talks about its 0.050 but everything points that my car needs 0.060...

I would only begin to assume that GM would take care in putting this information under my hood sticker...

Ranger
03-31-14, 09:52 PM
:noidea: I seem to recall seeing .060 as well in my '97 manual (or was it the '92 :hmm:). ALL the others say .050 so I suspect it was a misprint.

STS_FirstCar_Love
04-01-14, 03:27 PM
So I'm going to talk with the dealer today about spark plug gap and I paid for an hour of shop time Monday so let's hope they can figure out the problem or atleast point me in the right direction.

STS_FirstCar_Love
04-07-14, 05:42 PM
Alright so I was told that I should stick with what is stated under my hood 060 is right. The mechanic replaced the FPR and it turns out it was leaking a little bit no drips but when he placed a tissue inside it was wet with gasoline.

The idle is rock solid now when stopped at a light or parked, but I believe that my start-up problem is still active I will give it a few more days to see.

Ranger
04-07-14, 10:23 PM
The mechanic replaced the FPR and it turns out it was leaking a little bit no drips but when he placed a tissue inside it was wet with gasoline.
:hmm: How'd he do that. The FPR is a sealed unit.

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/wcsstore/CVWEB/staticproductimage//484/large/15960004_bwd_24027z_pri_larg.jpg

MoistCabbage
04-07-14, 10:27 PM
Rolled it up and stuck it in the nipple?

STS_FirstCar_Love
04-08-14, 09:25 AM
Rolled it up and stuck it in the nipple?

Yeah exactly what he did. Although now that I think about it if its a sealed unit why is there even a nipple to being with? (Might be a stupid question, but figuring since the hose attached to the nipple is a vacuum it would make me think it is sucking fuel although when I remove it I don't see any fuel.)

Ranger
04-08-14, 11:13 AM
See the crimp around the perimeter? There is a rubber diaphragm across there separating fuel on the bottom half from vacuum on the upper half. There should be no fuel from the nipple unless the diaphragm ruptures.

http://www.tomeiusa.com/_2003web-catalogue/image/pic/fuel_pressure_regulator/detail_big-e.jpg

Here's another view

http://repairguide.autozone.com/znetrgs/repair_guide_content/en_us/images/0900c152/80/27/96/3f/small/0900c1528027963f.jpg

STS_FirstCar_Love
04-08-14, 04:22 PM
See the crimp around the perimeter? There is a rubber diaphragm across there separating fuel on the bottom half from vacuum on the upper half. There should be no fuel from the nipple unless the diaphragm ruptures.

I understand I looked up more about what the FPR does and how it works and indeed that is correct it must have been ruptured, it did help with my surging at start-up and the rough idling, although the having to crank for 5 seconds to start still persists. I am however in the process of reading past post and checking what worked for them.

Any other suggestions would be great.
No Codes, replaced FPR, tested and replaced TPS, IAC, EGR no leaks or issues.

What I got so far
B1971 - Inadvertent Power - History

What I've seen from topics so far
Check to see if turning the key off and on a few times before starting helps?
Check the resting pressure (have to find more about this)

STS_FirstCar_Love
04-09-14, 12:16 AM
Any way to change the thread topic as it is no longer relevant to my problem?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_b7Al-ng_s

You can hopefully hear the sound in the background as my girlfriend tries to start the car.

Ranger
04-09-14, 11:16 AM
Any way to change the thread topic as it is no longer relevant to my problem?

Sure, what do you want it changed to?

rodnok01
04-09-14, 11:45 AM
I would check fuel pressure right off, both key on and running. If those pressures look good leave the pressure tester on and see if the pressure bleeds off and how quick. Could be a sticky injector or a weak fuel pump but until you check the pressures all speculation.

STS_FirstCar_Love
04-09-14, 04:01 PM
Sure, what do you want it changed to?

1997 STS - Long Start Time (Advice / Ideas) - Thank you Ranger!

----------


I would check fuel pressure right off, both key on and running. If those pressures look good leave the pressure tester on and see if the pressure bleeds off and how quick. Could be a sticky injector or a weak fuel pump but until you check the pressures all speculation.

I will pickup a gauge tomorrow and test it out, but when I was with the mechanic we watched it be within range when running. Not the other two scenario's though.

Submariner409
04-09-14, 07:09 PM
Did your thread title change.

Fuel pressure -

Key: ON = at least 40 psi, holds pretty steady for a while. (fast leakdown is fuel pump check valve or leaky injector/FPR) At Key: ON the pump runs for ~2 seconds then shuts off until key turned to START - then pump runs during crank, latches to RUN as engine comes up to idle RPM.

Engine RUN = 41-47 psi.