: Cooling System Hoses



Caddy112
07-29-05, 05:38 AM
Anyone ever replace all of the cooling system hoses? God, what a nightmare on my 95 Eldorado!! I found out that some of the 3/4" hoses are made of silicone instead of rubber, presumably because of the high heat areas they are in. One of these is nearly impossible to get to, I may have to remove the master cylinder to get my hands in there. Some of these hoses are molded, meaning they are made bent the right ways to fit, and bending straight hose myself won't do it, because they will kink and close off. And, almost all of them are in such tight places, I may have to bring this car somewhere and have someone else finish the job before I lose my sanity. By the way, this is a 95 Eldo with 79,000 miles on it, and I wanted to change the original hoses before one of them lets go on me in the middle of nowhere. Some preventative maintanence for peace of mind. Since beginning this job, I found that most of these original hoses are in surprisingly good shape, though. But, too late now. Any comments/advice? Thanks.

Ranger
07-29-05, 10:46 AM
The small green silicone hoses are silicone because they are so hard to get to and made to last for the life of the car. You are correct in that you did not need to change them.

Caddy112
08-02-05, 10:30 AM
Well, all the hoses are now new, and what a nightmare. The metel pipes that run behind the engine had rusted and both were leaking. They looked impossible to get to for replacing, so I bypassed them by running hose above the back of the engine, and now, finally, everything is fine. I had to pour the anti-freeze into the hoses to bleed out the air. I reccomend bypassing the pipes, it's a lot easier than trying to replace the original hoses at each end, only to find them leaking from the rust, and pushing and pulling from removing the old hoses and putting on the new ones. The pipes were a nice idea, but not if you use cheap metal that rusts. The previous owner must not have flushed the system often enough. If you don't want the unappealing looks of hoses where they should'nt be, pay someone to do it for you unless you have the patience of God, and the time of a retiree.

Eldyfig
08-03-05, 11:29 PM
For future reference, there is no need to flush your cooling system in the north*. Just drain and refill with the proper antifreeze and the coolant supplement.

brmurph
08-07-05, 09:23 PM
I have often wandered if all those hoses really need to be replaced.
The dealer has recomended at a cost of $800.00 (Sounds like a good deal after reading your post LOL).

Anybody else replacing all the heater hoses on a northstar? Is it really necessary at around 100,000 miles?

Ranger
08-07-05, 10:25 PM
Hoses today are much better than they used to be. I haven't repplaced a heater hose in years. 125K on my last car ('92 Deville) and traded it with original hoses, belts, rear brakes, exhaust and wiper blades. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Caddy112
08-08-05, 05:48 PM
I dont know about that. For peace of mind, I like to replace hoses and belts when they look and feel old. It was just a matter of time before the metel pipes that run along the back of the engine began leaking, anyway. Besides, with that mentality, many people still think they should never change transmission fluid. Many people may be lucky, but I think preventative maintanence is worth it for peace of mind. At my job, there is constant debate about whether it's necessary to change oil at 2000 or 3000 miles, or longer. Maybe today's metal is better, and today's oils are better, but I still think it's necessary to change stuff that will evetually wear out, before it lets go on you while you're out in the middle of nowhere, late on a Sunday when everything's closed. Age and climate have a lot to do with how long a car's components last, also. And, if it's garaged or not. So, I would say it's up to the owner to make an informed decision, and not rely on blanket statements like "if it aint broke, don't fix it", made by people too cheap to put a few bucks into their car for peace of mind. Sorry, nothing personal, that's how I see it.

Ranger
08-08-05, 11:44 PM
If I were "cheap" I wouldn't be driving a Cadillac. I'm just smart enough to know when to replace things and when not to. I believe very strongly in preventative maintanence. I would venture to say that my cars are probably better maintaned than yours. Change your oil every 2k and your hoses every year if it makes you feel better. 3K oil changes is 1950's mentality just like yearly tune ups (or do you still do that to?). The grease monkeys at Jiffy Lube will tell you otherwise of coarse. Do you think that is for your benefit or do you think they know more than the engineers that designed and built these engines?

Caddy112
08-09-05, 01:20 AM
I think I know what gives me peace of mind, and, if you don't change anything until you absolutely have to, then, by definition, your car is nowhere near as well maintained as mine. I also suggested, as can be read above, that the individual owner needs to decide what will give him peace of mind, considering usage, age, and climate, as well as mileage. And if the car is garaged or not. I've never been to Jiffy Lube, I do most maintanence myself. Oh, and another thing, if you want to maintain a warranty, then you'd better follow the maintanence schedule listed in the owner's manual. Here in the northeast, my Dodge dealer told me to follow the heavy duty schedule, based on the climate extremes we have here. Even though we only have those extremes two or three months out of the year. Try arguing with them when something blows up and they won't cover it. Again, it's peace of mind I want, not to prove how cheap I am by saying I never replace wiper blades and I stick my head out the window to see where I'm going in the rain and snow.

95Concours
08-09-05, 01:17 PM
Police spec vehicles (Crown Vics, Caprice etc.) use the green silicon hoses because they are made to last the life of the vehicle. I believe airplanes use these hoses too (?) for that same reason, they are extremely reliable.

Caddy112
08-09-05, 03:38 PM
That's good to know. The green silicone hoses seemed just as good as the new silicone hose that I bought to replace them with, so I can vouch for their lifespan on my own cars. I wonder if they come molded into a specific shape, like the rubber ones do. I doubt if I'll have to replace any of my rubber ones again, though.

Ranger
08-09-05, 07:36 PM
The reason I never replaced the wiper blades is because I use Rain-X and never need to use them, thus they are like new. Maybe you should find out the facts before you start jumping to conclusions. Money was never once mentioned by me. That was your assumption and derogatory comment, followed by "Sorry, nothing personal".

First you say "At my job, there is constant debate about whether it's necessary to change oil at 2000 or 3000 miles, or longer. Maybe today's metal is better, and today's oils are better, but I still think it's necessary to change stuff that will evetually wear out. Then you say "you'd better follow the maintanence schedule listed in the owner's manual". The owners manual says follow the OLM not 2-3K oil changes. If you want to debate, pick a side and keep your insults to yourself.

brmurph
08-09-05, 11:03 PM
Sorry guys, didn't mean to start anything or questions anyones maintenance schedule. I think there could be a case both ways. I was just wondering if many folks have had problems with the Northstart heater hoses going bad (leaking) after 100,000 miles.

So how about it? Has anyone have any heater hose leaks or blowouts?

Ranger
08-09-05, 11:27 PM
Inspect and feel them. If they are soft in places, or worn from rubbing on something, replace them. I personally have not had one go bad in 30 years or so.

Caddy112
08-09-05, 11:52 PM
Don't know what OLM stands for. The heavy duty maintanence shedule says oil changes every 3,000 miles. I do it every 2,000. More often than they require. For my own peace of mind. And, yes, I assume that people who don't change things before they absolutely have to are cheap, that is my assumption and opinion. If you like to take your chances, go ahead, I'll wave to you while you're stuck somewhere. And, speaking of assumptions, you ventured to say your car is better maintained than mine, and you were wrong there, so don't say anything to me about assumptions. Nothing is meant to be personal here, this is a discussion board, and my opinion is that people who don't do preventative maintanence are cheap, or ignorant. My opinion. The fact that this grates you suggests that you are, in fact, cheap. Someone who is not cheap would not take offense. And, just to aggravate you further, I know of a cheaper way to get the rain-X effect, without having to buy and use rain-X, but I won't tell you. I'll just let you wonder. By the way, are you the guy who came to my spot at a car show several years ago, and said you'd buy a used hubcap from me if you could get it cheaper than $3??

Ranger
08-10-05, 12:38 AM
Your no longer worth my time. I don't deal with trolls.

Eldyfig
08-10-05, 04:54 AM
I am with you Ranger. Our friend doesn't even know what OLM stands for and he is talking about the subject in his own posts. Even on cars without an OLM, I do not know anyone that changes their oil at his frequency anymore. On the hose change situation, I can see where he wants the peace of mind knowing his hoses are changed out. However, I think I have a good eye and feel for it to change out my hoses as I see fit.


"At my job, there is constant debate about whether it's necessary to change oil at 2000 or 3000 miles, or longer. Maybe today's metal is better, and today's oils are better, but I still think it's necessary to change stuff that will evetually wear out, before it lets go on you while you're out in the middle of nowhere, late on a Sunday when everything's closed."

Has used oil ever left anyone stranded?

Caddy112
08-10-05, 06:24 AM
Oh, pardon me, Oil Life Monitor, I would never go by that.

mcowden
08-10-05, 04:59 PM
Oh, pardon me, Oil Life Monitor, I would never go by that.

Let me guess, you get better mileage with the Tornado and a couple fuel line magnets, right? That's why you have been chosen to receive the Idiot First Class Award by members of Cadillac Forums. Congratulations! As your reward, you get a free map and flashlight. What do you suppose you could find with these two items? What if you use BOTH hands?

Seriously, dude, you need to go back to guarding that bridge, for our peace of mind. Change your oil and hoses every 20 miles if you want. All you're proving is that you need something better to do. Good luck finding it. If you need some ideas, I'm sure we can round some up for you. Some companies get incentives from Uncle Sam for hiring people like you. Good luck with that.

Nothing personal, that's just how I see it. As you mentioned, this is a discussion board. I'm just offering my opinion. Someone who is not an idiot would not take offense. You came in here looking for answers, and you got them. For some reason, you now feel compelled to insult the experts, and that means it's time for you to leave. If those words are too big for you, maybe www.disney.com would be a better place for you to offer your opinions. They have pretty pictures and friendly mouses over there that are probably more your frequency. Don't forget to ask mommy for permission first. Bub bye now! :wave:

If anyone would like to contact our friend Caddy112 directly, you can reach him at roadwarrior88@optonline.net. To ignore all posts by Caddy112, just click on this link: http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=ignore&u=22592

Caddy112
08-10-05, 09:37 PM
Thanks, I feel really guilty for offending the experts. Please forgive me. I did'nt know that only opinions supported by senior members of the forum were allowed. Pardon me while I go change a vacuum line that is probably still good, unless varified by one of the "experts".

mcowden
08-10-05, 10:31 PM
Thanks, I feel really guilty for offending the experts. Please forgive me. I did'nt know that only opinions supported by senior members of the forum were allowed. Pardon me while I go change a vacuum line that is probably still good, unless varified by one of the "experts".

Once again you're letting your a$$ do the typing. Your opinion about hoses and oil changes is your own, just like my opinion about you being one of the biggest idiots to show up here in months is my own. If you want to change them once a month, nobody's going to stop you. Nobody is slamming you for your opinion on hoses and oil changes.

On the contrary, your Idiot First Class Award was given on behalf of knowledgeable, helpful, and friendly people who support this forum. Instead of offering some insightful technical reasoning for why you chose to put yourself and us through the pain of changing all your hoses, you used the reason "because I'm not cheap like Ranger," and proceeded to grind that in and insult him repeatedly over three posts, in full moronic glory. Experts with valid and valuable technical knowledge and practical experience leave this forum because of idiots like you.

Now you want to debate vacuum hoses too? Here's a hint: Suck on them to find out if they're OK or if they leak. While you're busy sucking on all those hoses, we'll be busy ignoring you. Do us all a favor: Pack your bags and get out of town. You should consider replacing all of the wheel bearings before you go, for a little peace of mind.

In case you missed it the first time around, if anyone would like to contact our friend Caddy112 directly, you can reach him at roadwarrior88@optonline.net. To ignore all posts by Caddy112, just click on this link: http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=ignore&u=22592

Caddy112
08-10-05, 11:55 PM
I thought you "experts", the only ones with valid opinions, were ignoring me. And, no one has emailed me yet. Feel free to, though. I welcome discussion on various topics, not just cars. I have passionate opinions on lots of things, as I imagine you do, too. But, back to Cadillacs, I will try and express my opinion one more time, and say that I do not share your confidence in "OLM"s, nor am I convinced that either you or Ranger know as much as you pretend to know, perhaps you've just been lucky so far. I will continue to maintain my car as I wish, and you may continue to neglect yours as you wish, as I suggest to others. The fact that both of you take offense so easily indicates that I struck a nerve in both of you, so at least some of what I say is true. You don't have to follow what I do, any more than I have to follow what you do. This is a place to read what others have to say, and sometimes those things are'nt going to be what we want them to be. If you'd like to give and take some more, by all means, email me. Otherwise, maybe you should leave.

mumblypeg
08-11-05, 12:24 AM
Let me guess, you get better mileage with the Tornado and a couple fuel line magnets, right? That's why you have been chosen to receive the Idiot First Class Award by members of Cadillac Forums. Congratulations! As your reward, you get a free map and flashlight. What do you suppose you could find with these two items? What if you use BOTH hands?

Seriously, dude, you need to go back to guarding that bridge, for our peace of mind. Change your oil and hoses every 20 miles if you want. All you're proving is that you need something better to do. Good luck finding it. If you need some ideas, I'm sure we can round some up for you. Some companies get incentives from Uncle Sam for hiring people like you. Good luck with that.

Nothing personal, that's just how I see it. As you mentioned, this is a discussion board. I'm just offering my opinion. Someone who is not an idiot would not take offense. You came in here looking for answers, and you got them. For some reason, you now feel compelled to insult the experts, and that means it's time for you to leave. If those words are too big for you, maybe www.disney.com would be a better place for you to offer your opinions. They have pretty pictures and friendly mouses over there that are probably more your frequency. Don't forget to ask mommy for permission first. Bub bye now! :wave:

If anyone would like to contact our friend Caddy112 directly, you can reach him at roadwarrior88@optonline.net. To ignore all posts by Caddy112, just click on this link: http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=ignore&u=22592

Experts?

The experts at GM have a reason to use the OLM. Lower oil change intervals make for lower maintenece costs. It is a clever marketing tool.


Ask people that followed the OLM on late model Mercedes ML suv's. They are replacing engines that cost 12k due to high oil consumption. The OLM is a good guide and is probably accurate. If you plan on getting a new car every few years then it does it's purpose.

mumblypeg
08-11-05, 12:25 AM
Let me guess, you get better mileage with the Tornado and a couple fuel line magnets, right? That's why you have been chosen to receive the Idiot First Class Award by members of Cadillac Forums. Congratulations! As your reward, you get a free map and flashlight. What do you suppose you could find with these two items? What if you use BOTH hands?

Seriously, dude, you need to go back to guarding that bridge, for our peace of mind. Change your oil and hoses every 20 miles if you want. All you're proving is that you need something better to do. Good luck finding it. If you need some ideas, I'm sure we can round some up for you. Some companies get incentives from Uncle Sam for hiring people like you. Good luck with that.

Nothing personal, that's just how I see it. As you mentioned, this is a discussion board. I'm just offering my opinion. Someone who is not an idiot would not take offense. You came in here looking for answers, and you got them. For some reason, you now feel compelled to insult the experts, and that means it's time for you to leave. If those words are too big for you, maybe www.disney.com would be a better place for you to offer your opinions. They have pretty pictures and friendly mouses over there that are probably more your frequency. Don't forget to ask mommy for permission first. Bub bye now! :wave:

If anyone would like to contact our friend Caddy112 directly, you can reach him at roadwarrior88@optonline.net. To ignore all posts by Caddy112, just click on this link: http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=ignore&u=22592

Experts?

The experts at GM have a reason to use the OLM. Lower oil change intervals make for lower maintenece costs. It is a clever marketing tool.


Ask people that followed the OLM on late model Mercedes ML suv's. They are replacing engines that cost 12k due to high oil consumption. The OLM is a good guide and is probably accurate. If you plan on getting a new car every few years then it does it's purpose.

Caddy112
08-11-05, 12:40 AM
Careful, Mumblypeg, you're debating an expert, now.

Eldyfig
08-11-05, 12:40 AM
A few questions so we can get some background:

How often do you change your hoses?
How long have you owned your cadillac?
Have you read any posts explaining the oil life monitor?

To see where you stand among other cadillac owners within this forum, you could post a few polls. It is not that hard to do. Maybe a poll on "when do north* owners decide to change their oil?" or "do you use the OLM?" or how about "how many north* owners know what OLM stands for?". I would be very interested in the results to polls like these. And you would also be able to see where you stand in the crowd

mcowden
08-11-05, 01:07 AM
Experts?

The experts at GM have a reason to use the OLM. Lower oil change intervals make for lower maintenece costs. It is a clever marketing tool.


Ask people that followed the OLM on late model Mercedes ML suv's. They are replacing engines that cost 12k due to high oil consumption. The OLM is a good guide and is probably accurate. If you plan on getting a new car every few years then it does it's purpose.

First things first: I am *NOT* an expert at anything automotive. I just try to reason through things with all of the knowledge available to me. If I have something to learn, I'm more than willing and ready to learn it if you're credible.

That said, mumblypeg, you are comparing a Mercedes with a Cadillac. A German engine with an American engine. A truck with a car. Two completely different engineering mindsets, companies, and technical facts. The comparison has no validity whatsoever. Where are the facts and apples-to-apples comparisons that show more engine problems if you follow the Oil Life Monitor? If someone reading this has had engine problems that were caused by changing oil at the intervals recommended by the Oil Life Monitor, please speak up. I've never heard any such thing. If you want real proof, take the big risk and let your car go to 10% life on the OLM. Use whatever oil you want. Send the used oil in for analysis and post the results. If that doesn't settle the issue, I don't know what will. If I was a betting man, I'd say the analysis will show the oil is protecting and lubricating just fine. This issue is waiting for facts. Please fill in the gaps.

On the other point, how could Cadillac use lower maintenance costs as an effective marketing point if owners had engine damage due to lubricant failure at low mileage? Apparently that didn't work to the advantage of Mercedes, so that doesn't make any sense. The bad press would offset any advantages of marketing, don't you think? Word of mouth is far more powerful advertising than any brochures, TV or radio ads, or glossy magazine ads. That argument just doesn't make any sense to me. Please elaborate. Beyond that, the "Oil Life Monitor" on my Honda Civic went to 7500 miles also. Explain to me how it's a good marketing tool to tell car buyers how to NOT maintain their engine oil well.

mumblypeg
08-11-05, 01:16 AM
A few questions so we can get some background:

How often do you change your hoses?
How long have you owned your cadillac?
Have you read any posts explaining the oil life monitor?

To see where you stand among other cadillac owners within this forum, you could post a few polls. It is not that hard to do. Maybe a poll on "when do north* owners decide to change their oil?" or "do you use the OLM?" or how about "how many north* owners know what OLM stands for?". I would be very interested in the results to polls like these. And you would also be able to see where you stand in the crowd



I don't follow any "schedule" to replace my hoses. When they become deteriorated it's simply time to replace them. While quality of hoses and belts has increased ten fold in the last few years they are still a perishable part. Why do you think they sell so many emergency hose repair kits?

I have owned my Cadillac for a year.

It is not the first or only vehicle I have owned with a OLM. I owned a BMW convertible that had a OLM. The dealer told me to ignore it and change oil every 4k. The warranty on the engine of my 2000 ML320 Mercedes was increased to 100k because of a error in the OLM. The engines began to consume oil due to coking of the piston rrings. Sound familiar??? They are not infallible. They are a guide. Nothing more than a computer, garbage in/garbage out. Yes, I have read many posts about the OLM. While it is accurate, and oil quality has improved it can't hurt to change oil sooner rather than later. Oil still degrades,even when the car is undriven. If OLM were so good then they would be used in small aircraft and semi's.

I would be uncomfortable extending the oil change interval past 5k no matter what the little light says on the dash.

No matter if used in a Yugo or a Rolls oil holds acids, solids, water and other things in suspension.

The N* engine has a timing chain. Timing chain and camshaft wear will be one of the first parts to be affected due to overly extended oil change intervals. Ask anyone who has owned a v-8 Mercedes with a six foot long timing chain. That is what happened to Mercedes in the late '70s when they extended the oil change interval to 7500k from 5k on the 4.5 v-8 models.

IMHO

2002silverbullet sts
08-11-05, 01:42 AM
is it just me or am i the only one that talks to my caddy and asks her if she wants an oil change...then start rubbing the hood and tickling her

mumblypeg
08-11-05, 01:56 AM
First things first: I am *NOT* an expert at anything automotive. I just try to reason through things with all of the knowledge available to me. If I have something to learn, I'm more than willing and ready to learn it if you're credible.

That said, mumblypeg, you are comparing a Mercedes with a Cadillac. A German engine with an American engine. A truck with a car. Two completely different engineering mindsets, companies, and technical facts. The comparison has no validity whatsoever. Where are the facts and apples-to-apples comparisons that show more engine problems if you follow the Oil Life Monitor? If someone reading this has had engine problems that were caused by changing oil at the intervals recommended by the Oil Life Monitor, please speak up. I've never heard any such thing. If you want real proof, take the big risk and let your car go to 10% life on the OLM. Use whatever oil you want. Send the used oil in for analysis and post the results. If that doesn't settle the issue, I don't know what will. If I was a betting man, I'd say the analysis will show the oil is protecting and lubricating just fine. This issue is waiting for facts. Please fill in the gaps.

On the other point, how could Cadillac use lower maintenance costs as an effective marketing point if owners had engine damage due to lubricant failure at low mileage? Apparently that didn't work to the advantage of Mercedes, so that doesn't make any sense. The bad press would offset any advantages of marketing, don't you think? Word of mouth is far more powerful advertising than any brochures, TV or radio ads, or glossy magazine ads. That argument just doesn't make any sense to me. Please elaborate. Beyond that, the "Oil Life Monitor" on my Honda Civic went to 7500 miles also. Explain to me how it's a good marketing tool to tell car buyers how to NOT maintain their engine oil well.

Both engines are all aluminum, multi-valve, high compression engines, with sophistacated engine management systems. Both use a OLM that calculates in similar fashion based on the same parameters. The m112 engine in the ML320 suv is also used in sedans, coupes,station wagons, and cabrio's as well. The facts are that in Mercedes vehicles that used conventional oil and were serviced by the OLM recomendation oil usage increased. Leading to engine replacement and extension of engine warranty to 100k. When full synthetic oils are used the problem goes away. That is why Mercedes switched to Mobil 1 around 2000. It is possible, IMHO, that poor ring sealing and coking with conventional oil and extended oil change intervals is due to the low tension piston ring used by both Mercedes and Cadillac. Remember that for better efficiency both these vehicles operate at highly elevated temps that cook the oil over time. Conventional oils do not stand up to the heat and lenthy oil change intervals. I would be uncomfortable waiting to change the convention oil at 7k plus knowing that the N* is predisposed to coking the ring lands.

Actually both Mercedes and Cadillac cover oil changes and such for the first few years. It is in their economic interest to lower the number of service intervals that they do for free. Consumer Reports and others factor estimated maintenace costs into their "reports". The lower the costs the better. The engine is not going to fail. By the time oil consumption becomes an issue the vehicle is out of warranty. I am not saying that the OLM is useless. I think it is accurate to a degree. The Cadillac dealer I use charges $24.95 for a lube/oil/filter service using a GM filter and Castrol oil. That's less than half the cost of a fill up.

The oil analysis would show that the oil was contaminated with solid particulates, acid, and water even though was protecting and lubricating just fine.

IMHO

mumblypeg
08-11-05, 02:26 AM
Careful, Mumblypeg, you're debating an expert, now.

I won't go there.


I will say that all cars and owners are different. What works for one person may not work for another. Some cars seem to run forever on many original parts. Some can't go a month without needing attention. Some cars run forever with one owner and fall apart with another. Someone who is fastidious in regards to thier vehicle may have own reasons. Perhaps they have been stranded on the side of the road. I don't know.

Live and let live. Bro's

We should take a lesson from the "bikers". They remain true to their sport even though there are many different colors of "bikers". They all share a common bond. People may have different opinions, but we can learn by listening to everyone, and then using our head to filter things out. Everyone has valuble input. No matter how assinine it seems at first.

BTW, years ago I was the manager and had the highest sales reports at a medium sized auto parts jobber. I spent every minute of the day breathing cars. I sold alot of hoses and belts, mostly to people who waited too long and were subsequently having a very bad day. Also,ee had a machine shop. You knew who change thier oil and who didn't by looking at the sludge build up.

Btw, sorry for the bad grammer, but I just came back from the hospital where my pop just got a new pacemaker.

mumblypeg
08-11-05, 02:34 AM
[QUOTE=mcowden]Once again you're letting your a$$ do the typing. Your opinion about hoses and oil changes is your own, just like my opinion about you being one of the biggest idiots to show up here in months is my own. If you want to change them once a month, nobody's going to stop you. Nobody is slamming you for your opinion on hoses and oil changes.

On the contrary, your Idiot First Class Award was given on behalf of knowledgeable, helpful, and friendly people who support this forum. Instead of offering some insightful technical reasoning for why you chose to put yourself and us through the pain of changing all your hoses, you used the reason "because I'm not cheap like Ranger," and proceeded to grind that in and insult him repeatedly over three posts, in full moronic glory. Experts with valid and valuable technical knowledge and practical experience leave this forum because of idiots like you.

Now you want to debate vacuum hoses too? Here's a hint: Suck on them to find out if they're OK or if they leak. While you're busy sucking on all those hoses, we'll be busy ignoring you. Do us all a favor: Pack your bags and get out of town. You should consider replacing all of the wheel bearings before you go, for a little peace of mind.

In case you missed it the first time around, if anyone would like to contact our friend Caddy112 directly, you can reach him at roadwarrior88@optonline.net. To ignore all posts by Caddy112, just click on this link: http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=ignore&u=22592[/QUOTE


I would hate to work for you. IMHO

I have found a mitivac tester to be an invaluble aid when diagnosing vacum system problems. Also, some shops have a smoke machine that makes it easy to see leaks. Sucking on hoses might not work well for small leaks. Not to mention you might inhale harmfull things.

Is there something I am missing here?

If you support this forum do you get special rights? Like posting members email information?

peteski
08-11-05, 02:39 AM
Hmm...
'nother thread that turned into a pissin' contest...

I'm glad to see that this forum is as hotly divided on car maintenance as we are about politics. We keep arguing while the terrorist acids and contaminants keep attacking our engines! And then there is grose lack of engine coolant security. That can cause blown headgaskets! Ka-BOOM! many innocent headbolt threads are lost in the process.

Sad, I tell you, very sad...

I miss Bobob already.

Peteski

mumblypeg
08-11-05, 02:54 AM
Hmm...
'nother thread that turned into a pissin' contest...

I'm glad to see that this forum is as hotly divided on car maintenance as we are about politics. We keep arguing while the terrorist acids and contaminants keep attacking our engines! And then there is grose lack of engine coolant security. That can cause blown headgaskets! Ka-BOOM! many innocent headbolt threads are lost in the process.

Sad, I tell you, very sad...

I miss Bobob already.

Peteski


Your sarcasm about terrorist acid doesn't go over very with my gf whose father is serving our country in the middle east.

The acids in engine oil eat the soft metal of the rod and main bearings. That's a fact. Ask Jay Leno.

From what I know, neglected coolant corrodes the headgasket. As the N* engine heatcycles it expands and contracts. The weakest link fails first(corroded headgasket). The headbolt threads are lost for various reasons. They are not lost because they headgasket blows. They are lost when when they are removed to give access to the blown headgasket. Mercedes had the same problem many years ago.

Am I "pissing"???

what do you mean by that? just curious.

Eldyfig
08-11-05, 05:22 AM
I have found a mitivac tester to be an invaluble aid when diagnosing vacum system problems. Also, some shops have a smoke machine that makes it easy to see leaks. Sucking on hoses might not work well for small leaks. Not to mention you might inhale harmfull things.

Is there something I am missing here?

If you support this forum do you get special rights? Like posting members email information?

I don't think he was serious about sucking on hoses. He was being sarcastic himself. As far as the email address, caddy112 posted his own email to everyone in a post under a different subject.

I actually feel this subject has gotten a bit off track. That is what is meant about having a pissing contest. Peteski wasn't trying to post info to be analyzed, it just seemed like a comment to lighten things up on this subject. Alot of us have close ones serving our country in some form, God bless them and let's not get off subject just to bring that up.

We were originally talking about coolant hoses. We got to oil changes after that. IMO, 7k is way too long for an oil change. When I go by my OLM, 10% get me about 4K. Caddy112 says he changes at 2k, I believe. That is a bit earlier than needed. Old school, we all were told to change oil at 3k. I think those times have changed.

Did everyone miss my post about putting up some polls to see where we all stand and these subjects? Let us stop insulting each other. We already lost Ranger's insight on the subject.

Caddy112
08-11-05, 06:30 AM
I'm glad other people posted, we certainly did get a little off track. I indicated many, many times that each owner has to decide for himself what he needs to do. My cars were bought older, with higher, somewhat neglected miles, so I go out of my way to keep any further deterioration to a minimum. So it lasts me as long as possible, and to minimize the possibility of me getting stuck somehwere, as much as I possibly can. Since I did'nt make an intillectual argument, complete with months of analysis, statistics and concrete scientific proof that God Himself could'nt dispute, I was ambushed by the superior wisdom of a 29 year old from Chicago by the name of McCoward. Tis ok, I can handle it. Many people on here certainly do have insight, as I do. It's good to know that this forum is'nt just a clique of arrogant know-it-alls, and that opinions can be expressed and discussed. Originally, my hoses were all original, the small ones were quite stiff, the larger ones were'nt in much better shape, I decided to replace them all for peace of mind. I have had hoses let go on me before. It does'nt hurt to change them before they let go. Nor does it hurt to change oil more often than ANY manufacturer reccomends. Especially when a car that cost more than $40,000 when new, and had only 70,000 miles on it when I got it, was burning a quart of oil within 1,000 miles. If that was build up on piston rings, it's pretty shitty, if you ask me. I thought it was worn rings, either way, I choose to change my oil more often. That's it. I've seen Way too many cars with not enough oil changes, and mine will not be one of them. I don't care what school someone goes to, what magazines he reads, or what he thinks he knows. If my practical experience suggests otherwise, then I will do what I think is right for me in my particular situation, just as I allow others to do so. And, does'nt Chrysler own Mercedes? Does'nt that make my Dodge Durango, the one with the maintanence schedule I mentioned above that some people ignored, a Mercedes in some way? I don't have the sludge problem the 4.7s have because I change my oil more often. Oh well. Guess some people are'nt happy unless they're yelling.

Caddy112
08-11-05, 06:30 AM
I'm glad other people posted, we certainly did get a little off track. I indicated many, many times that each owner has to decide for himself what he needs to do. My cars were bought older, with higher, somewhat neglected miles, so I go out of my way to keep any further deterioration to a minimum. So it lasts me as long as possible, and to minimize the possibility of me getting stuck somehwere, as much as I possibly can. Since I did'nt make an intillectual argument, complete with months of analysis, statistics and concrete scientific proof that God Himself could'nt dispute, I was ambushed by the superior wisdom of a 29 year old from Chicago by the name of McCoward. Tis ok, I can handle it. Many people on here certainly do have insight, as I do. It's good to know that this forum is'nt just a clique of arrogant know-it-alls, and that opinions can be expressed and discussed. Originally, my hoses were all original, the small ones were quite stiff, the larger ones were'nt in much better shape, I decided to replace them all for peace of mind. I have had hoses let go on me before. It does'nt hurt to change them before they let go. Nor does it hurt to change oil more often than ANY manufacturer reccomends. Especially when a car that cost more than $40,000 when new, and had only 70,000 miles on it when I got it, was burning a quart of oil within 1,000 miles. If that was build up on piston rings, it's pretty shitty, if you ask me. I thought it was worn rings, either way, I choose to change my oil more often. That's it. I've seen Way too many cars with not enough oil changes, and mine will not be one of them. I don't care what school someone goes to, what magazines he reads, or what he thinks he knows. If my practical experience suggests otherwise, then I will do what I think is right for me in my particular situation, just as I allow others to do so. And, does'nt Chrysler own Mercedes? Does'nt that make my Dodge Durango, the one with the maintanence schedule I mentioned above that some people ignored, a Mercedes in some way? They must share information and technology. I don't have the sludge problem the 4.7s have because I change my oil more often. Oh well. Guess some people are'nt happy unless they're yelling.

95Concours
08-11-05, 01:07 PM
Hmm...
'nother thread that turned into a pissin' contest...

I'm glad to see that this forum is as hotly divided on car maintenance as we are about politics. We keep arguing while the terrorist acids and contaminants keep attacking our engines! And then there is grose lack of engine coolant security. That can cause blown headgaskets! Ka-BOOM! many innocent headbolt threads are lost in the process.

Sad, I tell you, very sad...

I miss Bobob already.

Peteski

Good analogy........ Did Bobinski quit this forum??? Say it aint so!:crying2:

EcSTSatic
08-11-05, 01:48 PM
For the uninitiated, a pissing contest is best explained by; first it usually involves beer. second, the "contestants" see who can piss the furthest. That's what's going on here.http://cadillacforums.com/forums/images/smilies/chatter.gif

mumblypeg
08-11-05, 04:51 PM
I'm glad other people posted, we certainly did get a little off track. I indicated many, many times that each owner has to decide for himself what he needs to do. My cars were bought older, with higher, somewhat neglected miles, so I go out of my way to keep any further deterioration to a minimum. So it lasts me as long as possible, and to minimize the possibility of me getting stuck somehwere, as much as I possibly can. Since I did'nt make an intillectual argument, complete with months of analysis, statistics and concrete scientific proof that God Himself could'nt dispute, I was ambushed by the superior wisdom of a 29 year old from Chicago by the name of McCoward. Tis ok, I can handle it. Many people on here certainly do have insight, as I do. It's good to know that this forum is'nt just a clique of arrogant know-it-alls, and that opinions can be expressed and discussed. Originally, my hoses were all original, the small ones were quite stiff, the larger ones were'nt in much better shape, I decided to replace them all for peace of mind. I have had hoses let go on me before. It does'nt hurt to change them before they let go. Nor does it hurt to change oil more often than ANY manufacturer reccomends. Especially when a car that cost more than $40,000 when new, and had only 70,000 miles on it when I got it, was burning a quart of oil within 1,000 miles. If that was build up on piston rings, it's pretty shitty, if you ask me. I thought it was worn rings, either way, I choose to change my oil more often. That's it. I've seen Way too many cars with not enough oil changes, and mine will not be one of them. I don't care what school someone goes to, what magazines he reads, or what he thinks he knows. If my practical experience suggests otherwise, then I will do what I think is right for me in my particular situation, just as I allow others to do so. And, does'nt Chrysler own Mercedes? Does'nt that make my Dodge Durango, the one with the maintanence schedule I mentioned above that some people ignored, a Mercedes in some way? They must share information and technology. I don't have the sludge problem the 4.7s have because I change my oil more often. Oh well. Guess some people are'nt happy unless they're yelling.

A thought provoking post Caddy112. Very well put.

One day while working as a tech at a local euro car shop the tech in the stall next to mine showed me a suspect upper rad hose on a six year old BMW that was in for a service. The hose was a little soft where it connected to the radiator. We both thought the car should stay until the hose could be ordered and replaced. The know it all shop foreman decided to give the customer her car. She didn't make it a mile from the shop before we got a angry phone call. The hose blew and sprayed hot coolant all over her freshly detailed Beemer. She was very upset that a inexpensive hose ruined her expensive detail job. We had to have her car detailed and pay for the tow and give her a rental car for free.

Changing oil and cooling system maintenance are related. When a vehicle has a oil change service done most people will check things under and around the car while waiting for the oil to drain. That is when problem hoses and belts should be caught. Over seventy percent of vehicle breakdowns are due to belts/hoses/tires.

When I was in high school while all my friends had shiny new cars I cruised around in old sleds. At one point I had a 1970 VW bug. All my friends made fun of me. One night when driving to the beach to go surfing the next morning my buddy driving mom's brand new 740 Turbo Volvo blew a heater hose in a very seedy area. I pulled up in the bug and there was a crowd of vagrants standing around the car. One vagrant offers to sell my buddy a gallon of water for five bucks. He buys it and starts to fill the radiator. I told him it was just going to run out because the hose was blown. He told me to shut up and continued to pour it in. He starts the car and the water sprays out the hose. All the vagrants laugh. I knew that if he bypassed the heater he could make it to the beach. The same dude walkes up and says that for twenty bucks he will tell my buddy how to fix it. I started to say that he could bypass the heater and that I had tools with me and my buddy told me to shut up. He actually paid this dude the twenty and used my tools to bypass the bad hose. This was in 1985 money. That little bug never let me down. However, it was neglected when I bought it. The p.o. got sick of the car because it was always breaking down. I learned to keep up with the car in terms of frequent oil changes(only held 3 quarts,no filter), valve and brake adjustments ect. and that little car never failed to get me where I wanted to go. Everyone was so amazed that I never broke down in a "old" car. A local VW only shop charged $4.00 labor to grease the car and change the oil. Parts ran about $3.50.

Today, sophisticated engine management systems keep raw fuel from washing down the cyl bores. Engines don't wear out by 100k like they did before, when the carb would percolate raw fuel into the engine. For some "old school" vehicles 3k between oil changes was way too long. That is partly due to the fact that the car needed to be greased way before that.

A friend of mine has spent more on parts/labor to build a radical Shovelhead for his Harley than I paid for my car. You better believe he changes his oil often. After spending so much he isn't going to risk his ivestment over three quarts of oil and a filter. He never planned to do this. He bought the bike used and it had been neglected. He pais the price for the previous owners neglect.

IMHO

95Concours
08-11-05, 07:11 PM
A thought provoking post Caddy112. Very well put.

One day while working as a tech at a local euro car shop the tech in the stall next to mine showed me a suspect upper rad hose on a six year old BMW that was in for a service. The hose was a little soft where it connected to the radiator. We both thought the car should stay until the hose could be ordered and replaced. The know it all shop foreman decided to give the customer her car. She didn't make it a mile from the shop before we got a angry phone call. The hose blew and sprayed hot coolant all over her freshly detailed Beemer. She was very upset that a inexpensive hose ruined her expensive detail job. We had to have her car detailed and pay for the tow and give her a rental car for free.

Changing oil and cooling system maintenance are related. When a vehicle has a oil change service done most people will check things under and around the car while waiting for the oil to drain. That is when problem hoses and belts should be caught. Over seventy percent of vehicle breakdowns are due to belts/hoses/tires.

When I was in high school while all my friends had shiny new cars I cruised around in old sleds. At one point I had a 1970 VW bug. All my friends made fun of me. One night when driving to the beach to go surfing the next morning my buddy driving mom's brand new 740 Turbo Volvo blew a heater hose in a very seedy area. I pulled up in the bug and there was a crowd of vagrants standing around the car. One vagrant offers to sell my buddy a gallon of water for five bucks. He buys it and starts to fill the radiator. I told him it was just going to run out because the hose was blown. He told me to shut up and continued to pour it in. He starts the car and the water sprays out the hose. All the vagrants laugh. I knew that if he bypassed the heater he could make it to the beach. The same dude walkes up and says that for twenty bucks he will tell my buddy how to fix it. I started to say that he could bypass the heater and that I had tools with me and my buddy told me to shut up. He actually paid this dude the twenty and used my tools to bypass the bad hose. This was in 1985 money. That little bug never let me down. However, it was neglected when I bought it. The p.o. got sick of the car because it was always breaking down. I learned to keep up with the car in terms of frequent oil changes(only held 3 quarts,no filter), valve and brake adjustments ect. and that little car never failed to get me where I wanted to go. Everyone was so amazed that I never broke down in a "old" car. A local VW only shop charged $4.00 labor to grease the car and change the oil. Parts ran about $3.50.

Today, sophisticated engine management systems keep raw fuel from washing down the cyl bores. Engines don't wear out by 100k like they did before, when the carb would percolate raw fuel into the engine. For some "old school" vehicles 3k between oil changes was way too long. That is partly due to the fact that the car needed to be greased way before that.

A friend of mine has spent more on parts/labor to build a radical Shovelhead for his Harley than I paid for my car. You better believe he changes his oil often. After spending so much he isn't going to risk his ivestment over three quarts of oil and a filter. He never planned to do this. He bought the bike used and it had been neglected. He pais the price for the previous owners neglect.

IMHO

Nice story.. I just have one question, why would "Moms brand new volvo 740 turbo" blow a heater hose? New cars dont blow hoses due to neglect, if the car is new, its safe to say the hoses are new.

mumblypeg
08-12-05, 01:54 AM
Nice story.. I just have one question, why would "Moms brand new volvo 740 turbo" blow a heater hose? New cars dont blow hoses due to neglect, if the car is new, its safe to say the hoses are new.

Yes, the hoses were new. As was the driver. Since he didn't pay for the car he abused it. Even the front brake disc was glowing cherry red when I pulled up. My friend had been using the turbo hard for all of the hundred mile trip. When I went to get my tools out of the trunk the dealer told me that the head gasket was blown and combustion pressure entered the cooling system. That's what caused the hose to fail.

Eldyfig
08-12-05, 02:07 AM
Are you metaphorically speaking or was the front rotor (brake disc) actually glowing red? Were the rotors on those old volvos that thin? I would think it would take an awful lot to get the metal to glow.

mumblypeg
08-12-05, 02:17 AM
Are you metaphorically speaking or was the front rotor (brake disc) actually glowing red? Were the rotors on those old volvos that thin? I would think it would take an awful lot to get the metal to glow.

It was actually glowing red. Along with a burning brake smell that burned my nose.

The rotors were not thin on the turbo's, they were pretty healthy.

If you had seen the way this guy had been driving you wouldn't be surprised. He was speeding up to over 100 mph and then slowing down to almost a complete stop. Over and over. He had a bunch of friends in the car and was showing off. I rode by myself, mostly because I only had a AM radio.

Eldyfig
08-12-05, 02:21 AM
Sounds exactly like something you would do as a kid, escpecially when your driving a newer car. I bet his parents got a hold of him. Back then we got our butts whooped for things like that.

mumblypeg
08-12-05, 02:42 AM
Sounds exactly like something you would do as a kid, escpecially when your driving a newer car. I bet his parents got a hold of him. Back then we got our butts whooped for things like that.

That's funny and so true. I didn't drive like an angel but I knew if I abused my parents things like that there would be a expensive and painfull price to pay. I remeber when pennies stopped being made from copper. Another buddy was breaking them in half with Vise-Grips to see if they were copper or white metal. His dad was fuming.

dkozloski
08-12-05, 05:00 AM
There are two main factors to be considered when dealing with rubber aircraft parts like seals and hoses. The first is that they are considered to have a shelf life of sixteen quarters and are date marked at manufacture. The second is that once installed they are considered to be able to last until the next overhaul. In a nut shell, all rubber aircraft parts forward of the firewall are replaced at overhaul with replacements that have not timed out on the shelf. If the part is expensive enough to be worth the trouble some timed out parts can be revalidated.
The idea that you can somehow send a sample of used oil to a lab and come up with a meaningful criticism of the OLM is ludicrous. This system was developed by one of the most highly regarded engineering labs in the world. Every possible operating condition that could be measured on the fly was taken into account. The data and alogorithm were peer reviewed by automotive engineering groups all over the world. The lady who led the developement is greatly admired by her colleagues. If you want to express a contrary opinion with any validity you better be prepared to spend millions because it is going to cost you at least that much to duplicate the original work in order to prove it false. You have the right to say you think it's BS but this is right up there with poo pooing the holecaust and claiming that the astronauts never made it to the moon. As the Chinese say it is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. Another guy said "'Tis bad to act like a fool. 'Tis worse if you're not acting."

Caddy112
08-12-05, 06:26 AM
Hmm, interesting. You sound like you know what you're talking about. Do you know if the Cadillac OLM does take into account "every possible operating condition that can be measured on the fly"? Or, is it a cheaper alternative? I imagined it to be a marketing gimmick. For reasons mentioned above by myself and others. Surely you understand healthy skepticism on my part of any car manufacturer. Based on my own experiences, and those of others. And, are the rubber hoses we get the same quality as that made for aircraft? And how old is it before we get it? There are other things to consider besides what experts, however well considered their guidelines may be, have to say. Especially when you look at cost cutting measures taken by finacially troubled companies in today's world. For example, I work in a power plant. Every time I come home and hit a light switch, I am amazed that a light comes on. I could spend all day telling you about how they neglect enormously expensive equipment, in the name of short term savings. And how it's been that way for years, and that I am told by many trusted people that it is an industry-wide practice.
Thanks for your info, it's very interesting, and I look foward to your comments.

mumblypeg
08-12-05, 01:21 PM
There are two main factors to be considered when dealing with rubber aircraft parts like seals and hoses. The first is that they are considered to have a shelf life of sixteen quarters and are date marked at manufacture. The second is that once installed they are considered to be able to last until the next overhaul. In a nut shell, all rubber aircraft parts forward of the firewall are replaced at overhaul with replacements that have not timed out on the shelf. If the part is expensive enough to be worth the trouble some timed out parts can be revalidated.
The idea that you can somehow send a sample of used oil to a lab and come up with a meaningful criticism of the OLM is ludicrous. This system was developed by one of the most highly regarded engineering labs in the world. Every possible operating condition that could be measured on the fly was taken into account. The data and alogorithm were peer reviewed by automotive engineering groups all over the world. The lady who led the developement is greatly admired by her colleagues. If you want to express a contrary opinion with any validity you better be prepared to spend millions because it is going to cost you at least that much to duplicate the original work in order to prove it false. You have the right to say you think it's BS but this is right up there with poo pooing the holecaust and claiming that the astronauts never made it to the moon. As the Chinese say it is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. Another guy said "'Tis bad to act like a fool. 'Tis worse if you're not acting."

While on the subject of fools:

GM engineering labs gave us the Vega with it's self desturcting aluminum engine, the worst diesel ever made, the V8 6 4 Cadillac of the '80s, Cadillacs sold with Oldsmobile engines, the Cimarron J car, and the death trap x body. Let's not forget the 10w-40 oil debacle, which turned many people off from GM vehicles.
They all seemed like a great idea at the time. Consumers were duped.

Did those same engineers design the N* that has to use stop-leak from the factory because of poor qaulity castings?

Some ideas work great in the lab. I am sure GM put high miles on it's N* test mules. Just like they did on the above mentioned examples.

The OLM is not total BS. It works for the average consumer that needs a little light on the dash to tell him/her when to change oil. One less thing to think about. Right up there with the camel mode.


The OLM works great when the car is new and under warranty.
The OLM doesn't factor in the fact that when a vehicle gets older the oil breaks down sooner. The OLM treats a 150k vehicle the same as a 1k vehicle.

Right now I have 5k on my last oil service. The OLM says I have 17% oil life left. The oil is dark. Probably due to blowby from the rings. This is on a 73k vehicle, and I have all the service records back to day one. The N* has low tension piston rings, thin 10w-30 oil, elevated operating temps, and a 7.5 quart capacity without a proper oil cooler. The oil will breakdown sooner or later. Sooner in a higher mile car than in a vehicle under warranty where GM bears the cost. My 1997 Eldo burns a quart every thousand miles.

Mercedes engineers developed a similar system that can even test the oil to see how dirty it is. With all of this technology the fact is that they are replacing many expensive engines due to high oil consumption caused by poor ring sealing. The Mercedes m112 engine similar to the N* in that it is all aluminum, multi valve, high compression, and uses LOW TENSION PISTON RINGS. Rather than fix the OLM, Mercedes switched to Mobil 1 synthetic to fix the problem.

Let's face it. The beancounters rule the roost today. The OLM benefits GM and Daimler-Chrysler in many financial ways. If you are leasing or you buy a new car every five years then the OLM is a win/win for everyone. For those of us who have older model N* and are saddled with any and all cost's of ownership then changing oil sooner might be in our economic best interest in the long run. However, we don't count in the eyes of GM. We are the second and third owners of these cars and probably wouldn't waste hard earned money buying a car off the showroom floor.

IMHO

mumblypeg
08-12-05, 01:43 PM
Hmm, interesting. You sound like you know what you're talking about. Do you know if the Cadillac OLM does take into account "every possible operating condition that can be measured on the fly"? Or, is it a cheaper alternative? I imagined it to be a marketing gimmick. For reasons mentioned above by myself and others. Surely you understand healthy skepticism on my part of any car manufacturer. Based on my own experiences, and those of others. And, are the rubber hoses we get the same quality as that made for aircraft? And how old is it before we get it? There are other things to consider besides what experts, however well considered their guidelines may be, have to say. Especially when you look at cost cutting measures taken by finacially troubled companies in today's world. For example, I work in a power plant. Every time I come home and hit a light switch, I am amazed that a light comes on. I could spend all day telling you about how they neglect enormously expensive equipment, in the name of short term savings. And how it's been that way for years, and that I am told by many trusted people that it is an industry-wide practice.
Thanks for your info, it's very interesting, and I look foward to your comments.

Well said.

Where I live, the local utility compay boosts of the millions generated in revenue every year. They are owned by the city. They here have been numerous large raw sewage spills in the last few months. The spills are due to grease blockage in the sewer pipes. The utility has been fined by the EPA for the spills. The solution is a joke: they are handing out plastic jars so homeowners can collect cooking grease. Meanwhile, a local pizza joint had a sewage backup that flooded the whole place in the middle of the day. It's about the bottom line.

GM has to answer to it's stockholders. GM doesn't have the consumers best interest at heart. GM has a mission. That mission, like any other business, is to generate as much revenue as possible while keeping expenses as low as possible.

We live in a disposable society. The OLM only perpetuates it.

mcowden
08-12-05, 03:40 PM
Well said.

Where I live, the local utility compay boosts of the millions generated in revenue every year. They are owned by the city. They here have been numerous large raw sewage spills in the last few months. The spills are due to grease blockage in the sewer pipes. The utility has been fined by the EPA for the spills. The solution is a joke: they are handing out plastic jars so homeowners can collect cooking grease. Meanwhile, a local pizza joint had a sewage backup that flooded the whole place in the middle of the day. It's about the bottom line.

GM has to answer to it's stockholders. GM doesn't have the consumers best interest at heart. GM has a mission. That mission, like any other business, is to generate as much revenue as possible while keeping expenses as low as possible.

We live in a disposable society. The OLM only perpetuates it.

I still haven't seen or heard the first bit of evidence that following the OLM is in any detrimental to any engine at any mileage. What exactly happens to the engine if you let the oil change go until the OLM says to change it? Your comparison to the MB engine, or any other engine for that matter, doesn't hold water in the argument. There are hundreds, probably thousands of different factors that we don't even know that invalidate the comparison.

My only point is that I think it's a waste of money and a huge generator of toxic waste to have everybody believe they need to change their oil every 3,000 miles. Where is the evidence that it's a problem? So will you also argue that the new products Mobil is advertising are going to cause harm down the road? They say you can go 5000, 7500, or 15000 miles before an oil change with three new products. I think two of those are conventional oils. What is different in those oils from others that makes Mobil think they can guarantee that kind of oil change interval? What happens to the oil after that long that causes engine damage? The acids are negligible as long as the car gets up to full temperature once in a while, so daily drivers really shouldn't have that problem. Jay Leno doesn't drive his cars every day, or every week. He has too d*mn many of them. When they sit unused, condensation develops and water ends up in the oil. That's where the acids come from. As long as the thing gets up to operating temperature frequently enough, the water is evaporated and the acids are controlled. Modern motor oils have plenty of buffering ability to prevent that problem anyway unless you only drive the car a few times a year. What other problems do you allege can happen?

dkozloski
08-12-05, 03:44 PM
mumbleypeg, all the factors you mentioned plus many more are factored into the determination of remaining oil life. There are many good references available on how the OLM works. I can appreciate your need to replace science with your own seat-of-the pants personal observations and prejudices after all this is what keeps the Flat Earth Society going. I prefer to believe that you can't over rule the laws of nature with an act of congress.

STS 310
08-12-05, 04:50 PM
The small green silicone hoses are silicone because they are so hard to get to and made to last for the life of the car. You are correct in that you did not need to change them.

Oddly enough, I have a thread dealing with a leak that turned out to be one of those green silicone hoses.

Caddy112
08-12-05, 09:49 PM
Seems everyone has an opinion, all of which are interesting. In our society, everyone is free to do as they see fit for their own particular circumstances. I remain unconvinced that the OLM in either of my 95 Cadillacs is accurate enough to go by, considering the higher mileage and neglect they may have faced when previously owned. Call me naive, or however it's spelled, I don't mind following what works for me. In the local Long Island newspaper, called Newsday, there is a very interesting and informative column in every Friday's edition called the Car Doctor, written by a man named Junior Damato. He owns a large repair shop somewhere near Boston, and his column answers the questions written in by readers. He's a big fan of 3,000 mile oil changes, synthetic oil(with longer change intervals), semi-synthetic transmission fluid, he uses, among other things, a service called ALL-Data as an information source for many of the things he faces every day, and is very considerate of the individual's circumstances when making reccomendations. I have not, however, read his opinion on OLMs, but I have seen it many times on oil change intervals, as mentioned above. I trust his practical experience more than the high and mighty pronouncements of some of the people here, who seem to think they know it all. I think practical experience is a lot more reliable than lab tests, even if the scientist or engineer tries to think of every possible scenario. I work with electrical engineers, most of them are'nt worth a damn. That is anecdotal, but here's another. I know of doctors who have, most of the time, more success treating patients with less mainstream medicine, and more alternative therapies, think the late, great, Dr. Robert Atkins, who helped me to lose over 100 lbs. It aint for everyone, each person has to decide for themselves. Just like my tomato sauce tastes differently than my Aunt's, and we use the same brand of tomato, and the same ingredients and cook it for just as long. Things differ. A computer, garbage in=garbage out. They are better than they used to be, but I will need more convincing. I don't take many things on trust. There has to be something else, besides acedemics talking down to everyone else. Especially when they owe their livelyhood to their employers, the car manufacturers we buy cars from. If they say it is'nt the greatest thing since sliced bread, then they'll be let go, won't they. The executive board wants to sell things, not make the perfect product. My company neglects the hell out of it's equipment, I could write about it all day. Sooner or later, Long Island will be facing a crisis larger than the Shoreham Nuclear Power Plant debacle, when the public has to bail out whoever owns the plants as they blow up and parts can no longer be made or found. Or, the expense of repairs. Charles Shumer wants us to "repower", whatever that means. All I can think of is he means bankrupting my employer by forcing them to spend BILLIONS to put up large new plants to replace the large, old plants we have now, since they are so dirty and inefficient. My company created this problem by short sighted management, bean counting and neglect. As long as things were somewhat ok during whomever's tenure, that's all that mattered. NYS will have to pay for new plants one day, when my employer goes belly up, and the executives walk away with their pensions. Oh well. Let me again stress that I find everyone's knowlege and opinions very interesting, though, and this debate is good.

mumblypeg
08-12-05, 11:38 PM
mumbleypeg, all the factors you mentioned plus many more are factored into the determination of remaining oil life. There are many good references available on how the OLM works. I can appreciate your need to replace science with your own seat-of-the pants personal observations and prejudices after all this is what keeps the Flat Earth Society going. I prefer to believe that you can't over rule the laws of nature with an act of congress.

So my comments are on par with the flat earth society folks? Thanks for the complement.

Do you have a vested interest in GM?

You seem like a well educated person:
If you know so much why don't you refute the points I made insted of talking about the moon and the flat earth society. It seems that people having a differnent opinion on the OLM than you somehow belong to these groups. That doesn't sound very scientific to me.

The OLM is a guide. Not the end all be all for determining when to change oil. Even Microsoft makes mistakes. I guess GM is perfect. I wish I had your rose colored glasses.

The OLM factors in blowby? and high miles? I don't think so.
I am not making up facts.
Read my post again about the other wonderfull ideas GM has had.
BTW, does "Unsafe at any speed" bring back fond memories?
Ever own one of those examples of GM's finest engineering?
How about the horrible Cadillac air suspension that failed in the late fifties?
How about early fifties Buick power brakes that killed more than a few innocent people?
I suppose people that were down on those products were prejudiced as well, based on your reasoning. They were probably card carrying member of the flat earth society.

IMHO

mumblypeg
08-13-05, 12:18 AM
I still haven't seen or heard the first bit of evidence that following the OLM is in any detrimental to any engine at any mileage. What exactly happens to the engine if you let the oil change go until the OLM says to change it? Your comparison to the MB engine, or any other engine for that matter, doesn't hold water in the argument. There are hundreds, probably thousands of different factors that we don't even know that invalidate the comparison.

My only point is that I think it's a waste of money and a huge generator of toxic waste to have everybody believe they need to change their oil every 3,000 miles. Where is the evidence that it's a problem? So will you also argue that the new products Mobil is advertising are going to cause harm down the road? They say you can go 5000, 7500, or 15000 miles before an oil change with three new products. I think two of those are conventional oils. What is different in those oils from others that makes Mobil think they can guarantee that kind of oil change interval? What happens to the oil after that long that causes engine damage? The acids are negligible as long as the car gets up to full temperature once in a while, so daily drivers really shouldn't have that problem. Jay Leno doesn't drive his cars every day, or every week. He has too d*mn many of them. When they sit unused, condensation develops and water ends up in the oil. That's where the acids come from. As long as the thing gets up to operating temperature frequently enough, the water is evaporated and the acids are controlled. Modern motor oils have plenty of buffering ability to prevent that problem anyway unless you only drive the car a few times a year. What other problems do you allege can happen?

Well, what factors invalidate my comparision?
Tell us just one out of the thousands.

Fact is that both vehicles use low tension piston rings. Fact is both vehicles use a sophisticated OLM that extends oil change intervals. Fact is both vehicles have oil consumption problems due to coking of the piston rings at higher mileage when using conventional oil. This is due to the oil breaking down. This is why Mercedes made the switch to full synthetic.

I am not saying ALL people should change oil at 3k. However, if I owned a early 'vette with mechanical fuel injection I would probably change oil every 2k because the raw fuel dilutes the oil.
I AM saying that N* engine life may be prolonged by not waiting for the OLM to tell us when to change oil in a higher mile N* that probably has some blowby. Blowby produces acids in the oil also, because H2O is a byproduct of combustion that gets into the oil and forms acid. It takes a long while to burn off the water that gets into the engine oil. Ask anyone that has owned a Harley up north. Harley uses a dry sump oil system. The water in the oil can cause it to freeze solid in the oil lines running to/from the oil tank. Leading to a loss of oil pressure. Thats why frequent oil changes in the winter are mandatory. A Harley runs at a much higher oil temp than Cadillac and they still don't evaporate the water out of the oil fast enough.

I think it's a huge waste of money to have a expensive engine wear out sooner because mighty GM knows best about when to change my oil.


The used oil isn't toxic waste if it is recycled, or burned in equipment designed for it. It can even be used in some diesels as fuel.
The oil that gets burned by a higher meleage N* with coked rings....that generates toxic waste called smog. It might be better for the enviorment to prevent oil burning and therefore smog production by changing oil brands or frequency of service intervals and then using the waste oil in a enviormentally friendly manner. IMHO
So where is all that toxic waste generated by changing oil more frequently?

dkozloski
08-13-05, 01:56 AM
Mumblypeg, the OLM does not directly measure acidity in the oil but it does monitor all the factors like cold starts that could produce the acidity. It includes an assumption of blowby and the total milage of the car. In short it takes into account as many factors as can be measured by a computer on the fly. After all it is a software package that has as data inputs all the available sensors that measure all the cars operating points as well as its environment. The key item that seems to be the critical criteria is the amount of ZDP, a consumable extreme pressure anti-wear additive, that is left in the oil. This appears to be the critical factor that indicates the need for the oil change but not the only point. In fact the factory service manual states that in no case should the oil be left in the car for more than one year and after the OLM gets to zero you should change the oil within the next two gasoline fill-ups. The manual also seems to indicate the oil is degraded most by high temperatures. Obviously if you're driving your car through dust storms or wide open across Death Valley you might want to change oil a little more often. In general the average driver will be operating with a large margin of safety following the indications of the OLM. The only downside to more frequent changes is waste and you are increasing the chance of you yourself introducing dirt into the engine. You may have noticed by now that the CTS automatic transmission has no dipstick and no fill pipe. The unit is filled and sealed at the factory to prevent misguided owners from tinkering around and introducing dirt or overfills. I don't think we are that far from sealed engines.

mcowden
08-13-05, 02:10 AM
Well, what factors invalidate my comparision?
Tell us just one out of the thousands.

Fact is that both vehicles use low tension piston rings. Fact is both vehicles use a sophisticated OLM that extends oil change intervals. Fact is both vehicles have oil consumption problems due to coking of the piston rings at higher mileage when using conventional oil. This is due to the oil breaking down. This is why Mercedes made the switch to full synthetic.

I am not saying ALL people should change oil at 3k. However, if I owned a early 'vette with mechanical fuel injection I would probably change oil every 2k because the raw fuel dilutes the oil.
I AM saying that N* engine life may be prolonged by not waiting for the OLM to tell us when to change oil in a higher mile N* that probably has some blowby. Blowby produces acids in the oil also, because H2O is a byproduct of combustion that gets into the oil and forms acid. It takes a long while to burn off the water that gets into the engine oil. Ask anyone that has owned a Harley up north. Harley uses a dry sump oil system. The water in the oil can cause it to freeze solid in the oil lines running to/from the oil tank. Leading to a loss of oil pressure. Thats why frequent oil changes in the winter are mandatory. A Harley runs at a much higher oil temp than Cadillac and they still don't evaporate the water out of the oil fast enough.

I think it's a huge waste of money to have a expensive engine wear out sooner because mighty GM knows best about when to change my oil.


The used oil isn't toxic waste if it is recycled, or burned in equipment designed for it. It can even be used in some diesels as fuel.
The oil that gets burned by a higher meleage N* with coked rings....that generates toxic waste called smog. It might be better for the enviorment to prevent oil burning and therefore smog production by changing oil brands or frequency of service intervals and then using the waste oil in a enviormentally friendly manner. IMHO
So where is all that toxic waste generated by changing oil more frequently?


The OLM does not "extend" oil change intervals, in your words, it gives you a recommendation for a safe oil change interval. You can choose to follow it or not follow it, it makes no difference to me whatsoever. All I want is for you to make a reasonable, logical decision about it instead of all this wild speculation based on unrelated facts and comparisons. Change your oil as often as you like. I'm only trying to point out that you're running on assumptions and hunches rather than sound reasoning.

The Northstar has oil consumption problems at even low miles, presumably because of buildup on the rings. It has nothing to do with the mileage. The rings get crudded up at very low miles. It is a problem. High mileage is not a factor. So the OLM plays no role whatsoever in this phenomenon. People have the ring crud problem even if they change their oil every 2000 miles with primo synthetic.

The same problem occurs in a N* whether you use full synthetic or conventional motor oil. There is no comparison between the problems. They are different phenomena on different engines. Correlation does not prove causality. The cylinder bore surface texture plays a role in the Northstar oil burning problem. What role does that play in the M-B problem? What are the tolerances in the M-B engine you cited? The same as the Northstar? Do you know? How was the M-B problem affected if owners gave the engine lots of wide open throttle? Affected at all?

How long do you expect more frequent oil changes to make the engine last? Again, you're making assumption that a problem exists and offering not a single shred of evidence that it does. Still waiting for anybody to chime in here about lubrication-related failure of the Northstar engine.

Have you ever seen or heard of problems with blowby on a Northstar? Where did you get this information? Never heard it before. It sounds a lot like a hunch or speculation, not like facts. An oil analysis would prove it one way or another, but you have refused to provide the factual data to back up your argument. Comparing the Harley-Davidson engine to the Northstar is absolutely absurd.

In those Harley engines that you apparently have analyzed extensively, exactly how long does the water last in the oil? If the oil is just say 275 degrees, how long do you think water is going to last at that temperature? Not very long at all unless there's a LOT of water or it's under pressure, and it is not. I don't see that happening. Hopefully someone else will chime in here with some facts about this possibility. When the engine is no longer running, there is no more combustion byproduct being added to the oil and it remains hot enough for a long enough time to eliminate all of the water, in my estimation. Some other factor may have caused the problem you describe, but I have a feeling it was not water. I propose that the problem you describe was caused by burn-off and evaporation of the lighter components of conventional oil, leaving the heavier components (toward paraffin wax) to create viscosity-related problems in cold weather. What kind of acid damage occurred to those Harleys? If water and blowby were the problems, and those create acids, why did you not mention any acid problems with the Harleys?

Have you ever read a bottle of oil? What part of "causes cancer in laboratory rats" makes you believe used motor oil is not a toxic waste product? How much used oil do you suppose winds up being burned? And the byproducts of that burning are not toxic? How much gets recycled? How much winds up in floor drains or septic tanks or in fields? If you dump used motor oil on the ground, what grows there? Nothing. And that's not toxic? Why don't you do a Google search for the words "used motor oil toxicity" and see for yourself. At least you would have some facts. If people change their motor oil more frequently, it follows that there will be more toxic used motor oil in the environment, whether that be in the air, in the water, on the ground, or in your lymph system, it's toxic no matter where it is. Are you saying there is no logic in that sentence? I don't understand your argument at all.

Gasoline sitting in an open container is a contributor to smog. Burning hydrocarbons, as you suggested to dispose of used motor oil, contributes to smog. I don't see your point here. First you say "burn the used oil and that's not toxic," but then in the next sentence you say "burning oil in the Northstar creates smog which is toxic." Please elaborate because so far I fail to see any logic in that statement.

I still contend that there is no harm whatsoever in following the OLM. There has been no evidence at all to the contrary. It's my preference to follow the OLM because it costs less and leaves less toxic mess in the environment. It's your preference to change your oil more frequently. Different strokes for different folks. I would venture to guess that neither your engine nor mine will ever suffer from lubrication-related failure.

mumblypeg
08-13-05, 02:57 AM
The OLM does not "extend" oil change intervals, in your words, it gives you a recommendation for a safe oil change interval. You can choose to follow it or not follow it, it makes no difference to me whatsoever. All I want is for you to make a reasonable, logical decision about it instead of all this wild speculation based on unrelated facts and comparisons. Change your oil as often as you like. I'm only trying to point out that you're running on assumptions and hunches rather than sound reasoning.

The Northstar has oil consumption problems at even low miles, presumably because of buildup on the rings. It has nothing to do with the mileage. The rings get crudded up at very low miles. It is a problem. High mileage is not a factor. So the OLM plays no role whatsoever in this phenomenon. People have the ring crud problem even if they change their oil every 2000 miles with primo synthetic.

The same problem occurs in a N* whether you use full synthetic or conventional motor oil. There is no comparison between the problems. They are different phenomena on different engines. Correlation does not prove causality. The cylinder bore surface texture plays a role in the Northstar oil burning problem. What role does that play in the M-B problem? What are the tolerances in the M-B engine you cited? The same as the Northstar? Do you know? How was the M-B problem affected if owners gave the engine lots of wide open throttle? Affected at all?

How long do you expect more frequent oil changes to make the engine last? Again, you're making assumption that a problem exists and offering not a single shred of evidence that it does. Still waiting for anybody to chime in here about lubrication-related failure of the Northstar engine.

Have you ever seen or heard of problems with blowby on a Northstar? Where did you get this information? Never heard it before. It sounds a lot like a hunch or speculation, not like facts. An oil analysis would prove it one way or another, but you have refused to provide the factual data to back up your argument. Comparing the Harley-Davidson engine to the Northstar is absolutely absurd.

In those Harley engines that you apparently have analyzed extensively, exactly how long does the water last in the oil? If the oil is just say 275 degrees, how long do you think water is going to last at that temperature? Not very long at all unless there's a LOT of water or it's under pressure, and it is not. I don't see that happening. Hopefully someone else will chime in here with some facts about this possibility. When the engine is no longer running, there is no more combustion byproduct being added to the oil and it remains hot enough for a long enough time to eliminate all of the water, in my estimation. Some other factor may have caused the problem you describe, but I have a feeling it was not water. I propose that the problem you describe was caused by burn-off and evaporation of the lighter components of conventional oil, leaving the heavier components (toward paraffin wax) to create viscosity-related problems in cold weather. What kind of acid damage occurred to those Harleys? If water and blowby were the problems, and those create acids, why did you not mention any acid problems with the Harleys?

Have you ever read a bottle of oil? What part of "causes cancer in laboratory rats" makes you believe used motor oil is not a toxic waste product? How much used oil do you suppose winds up being burned? And the byproducts of that burning are not toxic? How much gets recycled? How much winds up in floor drains or septic tanks or in fields? If you dump used motor oil on the ground, what grows there? Nothing. And that's not toxic? Why don't you do a Google search for the words "used motor oil toxicity" and see for yourself. At least you would have some facts. If people change their motor oil more frequently, it follows that there will be more toxic used motor oil in the environment, whether that be in the air, in the water, on the ground, or in your lymph system, it's toxic no matter where it is. Are you saying there is no logic in that sentence? I don't understand your argument at all.

Gasoline sitting in an open container is a contributor to smog. Burning hydrocarbons, as you suggested to dispose of used motor oil, contributes to smog. I don't see your point here. First you say "burn the used oil and that's not toxic," but then in the next sentence you say "burning oil in the Northstar creates smog which is toxic." Please elaborate because so far I fail to see any logic in that statement.

I still contend that there is no harm whatsoever in following the OLM. There has been no evidence at all to the contrary. It's my preference to follow the OLM because it costs less and leaves less toxic mess in the environment. It's your preference to change your oil more frequently. Different strokes for different folks. I would venture to guess that neither your engine nor mine will ever suffer from lubrication-related failure.



I am sorry that you and others don't understand my "argument".

Perhaps it is way too deep for some narrow minded people.

Do you have a vested interest in GM? Are you some kind of enviormentalist?

Should people feel guilty because they change oil sooner than the OLM says?

Every combustion engine has blowby. Is that absurd? Do you need facts?
My point about blowby was that a higher mileage engine will have MORE blowby than a new one. Esp. if there are ring sealing problems like on the N*.

Pardon me.... for comparing one internal combustion engine with another.
The basics are the same. The problem of Harley oil line freezing due to water in the oil is a fact. There aren't acid problems because most people that ride a Harley know how expensive a v-twin engine is and change oil so often it would make you cry. All that toxic waste. What a shame.
If the oil got to 275 degrees it's life has been shortened. Oil temp shouldn't run much higher that water temp.
The Harley factory service manual is where I get my information from(among other sources). Why don't you read one. You will find that I am not making up the story about frequent oil changes in winter being mandatory because of water in the oil freezing.

Yes,burning used motor oil as fuel in a diesel produces smog, so does a coal fired power plant.
The smog created by a N* burning oil is simply pollution that could be eliminated.

Rings that don't seal well cause blowby. very simple. Synthetic oil and/or more frequent oil changes can help with ring sealing by reducing deposits.
If it was true that the rings get crudded up at very low miles do you think people would still buy N* vehicles? Think people would shell out 45-50k on a new Deville that burned oil while it was still under warranty?

mcowden
08-13-05, 03:45 AM
I am sorry that you and others don't understand my "argument". Perhaps it is way too deep for some narrow minded people.

If it was true that the rings get crudded up at very low miles do you think people would still buy N* vehicles? Think people would shell out 45-50k on a new Deville that burned oil while it was still under warranty?


I do not work for or have any interest in GM. As I've stated and you apparently didn't read, my only interest is to bring logic to your argument where there is none. I don't want anyone to feel guilty or change anything. Just want the facts on the table instead of a bunch of hogwash.

H-D may say water can freeze in the oil. I don't doubt that. I do doubt that it happens when the engine is run on a regular basis, or as a result of blowby, which is where this line of reasoning started. Do you disagree that in the winter, motorcycles are not run often enough to eliminate the water that winds up in the oil due to condensation? Blowby is the least of their worries. It doesn't get up to temperature as frequently as a car does, especially not in the winter, that's why they have water in the oil that can freeze, and that's one more reason why the comparison is useless.

I know every engine has blowby. Don't you think the engineers who designed the engine and the OLM also knew that? The blowby phenomenon is factored into the OLM along with other factors you did not mention such as PCV. What effect do you suppose PCV has on oil life in a Northstar? How about in a Harley-Davidson V-Twin engine?

You say that the N* oil burning pollution could be eliminated, but you want to eliminate it by changing oil more frequently, which is just putting even more pollution in the environment. Burning it, which you suggested, causes pollution, just like you said it did. Recycling it requires energy, which generates more pollution. But still you somehow believe that the environmental cost of the used oil burning and recycling efforts is less than that produced by the oil consumption of the Northstar. Your argument doesn't make any sense to me. What am I missing?

You should spend some time reading through the various posts on oil consumption of these engines. It does happen, and it does happen while they're under warranty, and people still buy them. You still have offered no facts whatsoever to back up your argument and are making statements based on gut feelings and invalid comparisons. Again, where is the evidence that the engine doesn't last as long if you follow the OLM? Haven't seen it yet. Why do you believe frequent oil changes result in less pollution? It's pretty apparent that more frequent oil changes results in more toxic stuff in the environment.

mumblypeg
08-13-05, 02:14 PM
I do not work for or have any interest in GM. As I've stated and you apparently didn't read, my only interest is to bring logic to your argument where there is none. I don't want anyone to feel guilty or change anything. Just want the facts on the table instead of a bunch of hogwash.

H-D may say water can freeze in the oil. I don't doubt that. I do doubt that it happens when the engine is run on a regular basis, or as a result of blowby, which is where this line of reasoning started. Do you disagree that in the winter, motorcycles are not run often enough to eliminate the water that winds up in the oil due to condensation? Blowby is the least of their worries. It doesn't get up to temperature as frequently as a car does, especially not in the winter, that's why they have water in the oil that can freeze, and that's one more reason why the comparison is useless.

I know every engine has blowby. Don't you think the engineers who designed the engine and the OLM also knew that? The blowby phenomenon is factored into the OLM along with other factors you did not mention such as PCV. What effect do you suppose PCV has on oil life in a Northstar? How about in a Harley-Davidson V-Twin engine?

You say that the N* oil burning pollution could be eliminated, but you want to eliminate it by changing oil more frequently, which is just putting even more pollution in the environment. Burning it, which you suggested, causes pollution, just like you said it did. Recycling it requires energy, which generates more pollution. But still you somehow believe that the environmental cost of the used oil burning and recycling efforts is less than that produced by the oil consumption of the Northstar. Your argument doesn't make any sense to me. What am I missing?

You should spend some time reading through the various posts on oil consumption of these engines. It does happen, and it does happen while they're under warranty, and people still buy them. You still have offered no facts whatsoever to back up your argument and are making statements based on gut feelings and invalid comparisons. Again, where is the evidence that the engine doesn't last as long if you follow the OLM? Haven't seen it yet. Why do you believe frequent oil changes result in less pollution? It's pretty apparent that more frequent oil changes results in more toxic stuff in the environment.

You want facts but you say things like:
"....more toxic stuff in the enviorment"... yeah that sounds real scientific.

Here are some facts:
Vehicles with On-Star collect OLM data that is monitored by GM.
GM does not offer rebuilt N* engines. They are a throw away item.
In N* vehicles in 2000, GM raised the upper limit for oil changes to 10,000 miles, before it had been 7500 miles. Thean in 2002, they did away with the upper limit altogether, extending the oil change interval to at least 12,000 miles or more depending on conditions. GM is saving big bucks by having to do less oil changes under warranty. GM DID NOT require the use of higher quality oil, or improve the oil system of the N* as the oil changes were extended higher and higher in the N*. The OLM used by GM is based on a math model, it does not test the actual oil for degredation. I doubt that the OLM can factor the blowby of each individual engine. It uses a statistical average only. The OLM also can't tell if you are using cheapo recycled oil or Mobil 1. Garbage in=Garbage out.I propose that oil burning on N* could be reduced by using synthectic or changing oil more frequently.
A senior research scientist from GM has said the following about the OLM:
"One advantage of using a math model instead of a sensor is lower cost"
and
"Early on, the challenge was to make the model as simple as possible and still get it to work"

Sounds like the same people that brought us the Corvair, the Vega, the worst diesel ever, and Cadillac air suspension that could fail without warning.

Thanks GM.

Water is a byproduct of combustion. Blowby introduces water into the oil as well. Condensation is not the only cause of water in oil. That water mixes with nitrates that are also a byproduct of combustion to form acids. If the number of combustion byproducts in the oil can be reduced by having tighter piston ring sealing there is less of a need to remove them. Synthectic oil promotes tighter ring sealing and less deposit build up on piston rings.

Motorcycles get up to temperature just as frequently as cars do. Police issue Harleys even have a oil cooler and a electric fan that blows air over the cyls to aid cooling. An air cooled engine has a higher operating temperature than a water cooled ditto. Period.

dkozloski
08-13-05, 03:54 PM
mumblypeg, who the hell is getting oil changes under warranty?

mumblypeg
08-13-05, 04:03 PM
mumblypeg, who the hell is getting oil changes under warranty?


From the GM official website:

"The first of its kind in the industry, the Cadillac No-Charge Scheduled Maintenance Program offers free scheduled maintenance for your Cadillac during the first four years or 80,000 km of ownership - whichever comes first. The program covers the inspection and replacement or other appropriate service of items such as:


Lube/Oil/Filter
Tire Rotation
Air Cleaner Filter
Fuel System Inspection
Throttle Body Cleaning
Brake Pads and Rotors

Furthermore, the program is fully transferable to any subsequent owner"

Hell does not have a Cadillac dealer. At least I can't find one listed. For the rest of us the above applies.


ANY MORE QUESTIONS?

Caddy112
08-13-05, 09:00 PM
Hi Mumbly. These guys don't like the common sense and practical arguments you make, because it does'nt fit into their convenient, intellectual presumptions. The trouble with someone who knows so much, is you are never really sure what he's up to. This is why I am skeptical of GM Engineers, who will have economic ambitions among their considerations. Not even GM can afford to research and test and consider each and every little thing to no end until something is aboslutely perfect, not even NASA can do this, as we have recently seen on the news. So some think we're wasting our money and time, and we think we're probably correct. Guess we have some irreconcilable viewpoints.

Eldyfig
08-13-05, 09:43 PM
The end.


.....please.

Mark Bunds
08-13-05, 10:05 PM
Hi Mumbly. These guys don't like the common sense and practical arguments you make, because it does'nt fit into their convenient, intellectual presumptions. The trouble with someone who knows so much, is you are never really sure what he's up to. This is why I am skeptical of GM Engineers, who will have economic ambitions among their considerations. Not even GM can afford to research and test and consider each and every little thing to no end until something is aboslutely perfect, not even NASA can do this, as we have recently seen on the news. So some think we're wasting our money and time, and we think we're probably correct. Guess we have some irreconcilable viewpoints.

It isn't always necessary to reconcile viewpoints.

If a vehicle owner wants to change his or her oil/hoses/sparkplugs/tires every other day because it makes him/her feel better, fine.

If a believer of higher engenieering standards who takes the advice of the almighty OLM wants to think the frequent changer is an idiot, fine.

Chances are, the frequent changer isn't hurting anyone, and really doesn't give a rats ass what the OLM beliver thinks anyway.

And the OLM believer has his/her own peace of mind, thinks that frequnt changes are a waste of time and money, and doesn't really care what the frequent changer thinks about the OLM either.

And since used oil pollutes whether it's being dumped into landfills, or being burned into smog by poorly performing engines, I guess we should either all start driving electric cars, continue spouting empty rhetoric, or just shut up.

After all, I won't stop eating beef just because twenty billion cow farts are heating up the planet with greenhouse emissions, and its even less likely that I am going to change my oil any more or any less than I am inclined to just because a computer tells me to, or because the EPA has labeled it to be "toxic waste."

Proper disposal of used oil and coolant is a responsibility that should be shared by every vehicle owner, but after it leaves the collection facility, who really knows where it goes? People should not be intimidated by factors they have no control over. Likewise, other people should not try to intimidate those who are harmlessly ignorant.

So welcome to America! Change those hoses every half hour if you want to, you have the right to, for whatever reason you choose. It's none of my business, and I support harmless decisions whether I agree with them or not. And I am the fool if I get surly with you just because I disagree.

And when that OLM says its time for an oil change, well, change it, or ignore it, or do it sooner. It doesn't really matter anyway, because if just one deer jumps out in front of your perfectly maintained car, or just one drunk driver misses that stop sign, where are you then?

Opinions on matters of pure conjecture can cause unnecessary dissent when the participants are both right.

Is it morally wrong to change hoses and oil at intervals of one's own choosing? I hope not, or at least I hope nobody else thinks so.

Will my Mom's 96 Seville suffer grave engine damage if we continue to change the oil when, after running perfectly for 217,000 miles and 36 oil changes, the OLM tells us to? Only time will tell...

Caddy112
08-13-05, 11:43 PM
You sound like a person with a lot of common sense. I can tell you that where I work, we burn waste oil from lots of places, supposedly tested for harmful contaminants before we get it. We then burn it off in a large boiler, with barely enough pressure to reach where it goes in the boiler, let alone atomize for a proper burn. We were also recently in the news for being one of NYS's worst poluters, and we are lisenced to burn oil to make power and dispose of waste oil. With this in mind, as you said, either it gets in our air from our engines, or gets dumped or recycled somehow, and in Long Island's case, we're breathing it all in either way. As for changing hoses, I'm glad you agree that it is'nt the worst sin ever thought of to change them for peace of mind. I wonder what some of the writers here think of changing power steering fluid and brake fluid, as a man I work with has done. And the gear oil in a rear end, since it is a nice thick fluid and does'nt see the heat engine oil does. Not to mention blow-by gases. Now I've just perpetuated the argument again, sorry.......

dkozloski
08-14-05, 02:46 AM
How about an extreme example of something. in 1974 I bought a Sears Roebuck lawnmower. In 2004 I took it to the local garbage transfer station and left it at what we call "The Country Store", a covered area to place stuff that still has life in it that someone else might use. The mower was running just fine but the wheels wobbled and the plastic grass catcher was cracked. In the 31 years I owned the mower I never changed oil but added less than a quart over the years. It didn't smoke and started fine. It still had the original spark plug. About the only maintenance I ever did was to take off the paper air filter from time to time and knock the dirt out of it. I wouldn't have done that except it was plugged. Based on that anecdote it is a waste of time, money, and resources to change the oil at all. My experience is as valid as anyone elses. What works for you is just fine.
FWIW, Mark Twain says that common sense is a series of prejudices established in the human mind before the age of eighteen.

mcowden
08-14-05, 03:02 AM
You want facts but you say things like:
"....more toxic stuff in the enviorment"... yeah that sounds real scientific.

Here are some facts:
Vehicles with On-Star collect OLM data that is monitored by GM.
GM does not offer rebuilt N* engines. They are a throw away item.
In N* vehicles in 2000, GM raised the upper limit for oil changes to 10,000 miles, before it had been 7500 miles. Thean in 2002, they did away with the upper limit altogether, extending the oil change interval to at least 12,000 miles or more depending on conditions. GM is saving big bucks by having to do less oil changes under warranty. GM DID NOT require the use of higher quality oil, or improve the oil system of the N* as the oil changes were extended higher and higher in the N*. The OLM used by GM is based on a math model, it does not test the actual oil for degredation. I doubt that the OLM can factor the blowby of each individual engine. It uses a statistical average only. The OLM also can't tell if you are using cheapo recycled oil or Mobil 1. Garbage in=Garbage out.I propose that oil burning on N* could be reduced by using synthectic or changing oil more frequently.
A senior research scientist from GM has said the following about the OLM:
"One advantage of using a math model instead of a sensor is lower cost"
and
"Early on, the challenge was to make the model as simple as possible and still get it to work"

Sounds like the same people that brought us the Corvair, the Vega, the worst diesel ever, and Cadillac air suspension that could fail without warning.

Thanks GM.

Water is a byproduct of combustion. Blowby introduces water into the oil as well. Condensation is not the only cause of water in oil. That water mixes with nitrates that are also a byproduct of combustion to form acids. If the number of combustion byproducts in the oil can be reduced by having tighter piston ring sealing there is less of a need to remove them. Synthectic oil promotes tighter ring sealing and less deposit build up on piston rings.

Motorcycles get up to temperature just as frequently as cars do. Police issue Harleys even have a oil cooler and a electric fan that blows air over the cyls to aid cooling. An air cooled engine has a higher operating temperature than a water cooled ditto. Period.

OK, obviously most people want this thread to end, so I won't argue any further. I do still believe you are making circular and nonsensical arguments against useless data, but you keep twisting things around and changing the points into something else just so you can keep arguing, and frankly I just can't keep up with the flow of misinformation any longer and don't have the time or energy to reply. There's the garbage in = garbage out result you wanted. In the end, I disagree that changing oil more frequently than the OLM suggests will have any benefits whatsoever. It's just a waste and serves no purpose other than satisfying the owner's feelings about it. I also don't believe GM would lead owners so far astray as to extend the oil change interval to a point that could cause engines to suffer lubrication-related failures in the name of short-term, microscopically-small economic savings, especially when they're fighting the quality issues against foreign competitors. That's just me and my reasoning. You have yours and I won't argue any further. Thanks for the discussion nonetheless.

mcowden
08-14-05, 03:07 AM
How about an extreme example of something. in 1974 I bought a Sears Roebuck lawnmower. In 2004 I took it to the local garbage transfer station and left it at what we call "The Country Store", a covered area to place stuff that still has life in it that someone else might use. The mower was running just fine but the wheels wobbled and the plastic grass catcher was cracked. In the 31 years I owned the mower I never changed oil but added less than a quart over the years. It didn't smoke and started fine. It still had the original spark plug. About the only maintenance I ever did was to take off the paper air filter from time to time and knock the dirt out of it. I wouldn't have done that except it was plugged. Based on that anecdote it is a waste of time, money, and resources to change the oil at all. My experience is as valid as anyone elses. What works for you is just fine.
FWIW, Mark Twain says that common sense is a series of prejudices established in the human mind before the age of eighteen.

They have grass in Fairbanks? Didn't you mean to say "snowblower?" :duck:

cguthrie
08-14-05, 10:28 AM
This is the craziest thread I've read here in several years.

For the record, I bought a 99STS with 40K. I soon learned about the "feature" of the aggressive cross hatching, when I seemed to be missing oil. I found this forum and it has been a blessing.

To date, I upgraded the brakes with cross drilled rotors, and have followed bbob's advice to oil, coolant, etc. Now I have 116K, and guests at my home yesterday, complimented me on my new STS in the garage! I guess everyone isn't hip to the new 05/06's yet!

In my experience, given that I add a quart of dino oil every 1K, the OLM is a terrific tool, and the car is still running as it did 76K ago!

I bought the car because of the engine, and it has exceeded my expectations.

Just my thoughts,

CG
99STS 116K

dkozloski
08-14-05, 11:41 AM
The argument continues because both sides are right. You can change the oil based on personal experience, tide tables, astrology, tea leaves, chicken guts, or the OLM and your car will operate just fine. Obviously it is not a critically world shattering decision to have to make. It does fuel a colorful "hot stove league" of opinions. Cheers!! http://www.news-miner.com/cda/article/print/0,1674,113%257E7244%257E3007099,00.html

brmurph
08-14-05, 02:13 PM
The interesting thing is that with all of these post I think there was only one guy (and no I did not go back and count) that said he has had any heater hose leaks. I guess the bottom like is the heater hoses must not be causing much of a problem.

mumblypeg
08-14-05, 02:19 PM
To each his own.

Thankfully, we can agree to disagree, unlike Bob Novak on CNN.

May we all enjoy high miles with our N*. After all, like someone else said, a deer or a drunk can wipe out your car and we don't have any control over that. My apologies if some of my posts were a bit harsh.

mcowden
08-14-05, 11:41 PM
To each his own.

Thankfully, we can agree to disagree, unlike Bob Novak on CNN.

May we all enjoy high miles with our N*. After all, like someone else said, a deer or a drunk can wipe out your car and we don't have any control over that. My apologies if some of my posts were a bit harsh.

No need to apologize. It's all good. Let me know when you'll be in the Chicago area and it will be my pleasure to buy you a beer. Thanks for being a good sport. :cheers:

peteski
08-15-05, 02:02 AM
oWow! I leave for few days and I miss 3 more full pages of pissin'!

Yes, my original posting was intended as humorous and should have been taken as such - no disrespect meant.

Cheer up all - B b o b was probably locked up in some secret room in order to come up with a brand new Caddy engine. Andromeda 90-VALVE V-18 engine! Yes, 5-valves per cyl! Or is is the Uranus 0-valve engine? Yes, a first V-16 2-stroke engine! :D

Relax and smile! ;-)

Peteski

EcSTSatic
08-16-05, 01:13 PM
We need a "pissing" smilie. Anyone have one? http://cadillacforums.com/forums/images/smilies/evilsmile.gif

dkozloski
08-16-05, 03:12 PM
http://www.customcases.com.au/shop/img/shop/134_apl-116_200.jpg (javascript:popupWindow('/shop/scditemview.asp?ProdID=75','450','400')) Here is the international symbol.

EcSTSatic
08-16-05, 03:46 PM
http://cadillacforums.com/forums/images/smilies/highfive.gif I have Calvin pissing on a Dodge emblem on my '77 Dodge van. People try to explain to me that that's not how you are supposed to use them. I say "you haven't driven my van!"
I bought this beauty in a pawn shop for $300!

95Concours
08-19-05, 08:23 PM
How about an extreme example of something. in 1974 I bought a Sears Roebuck lawnmower. In 2004 I took it to the local garbage transfer station and left it at what we call "The Country Store", a covered area to place stuff that still has life in it that someone else might use. The mower was running just fine but the wheels wobbled and the plastic grass catcher was cracked. In the 31 years I owned the mower I never changed oil but added less than a quart over the years. It didn't smoke and started fine. It still had the original spark plug. About the only maintenance I ever did was to take off the paper air filter from time to time and knock the dirt out of it. I wouldn't have done that except it was plugged. Based on that anecdote it is a waste of time, money, and resources to change the oil at all. My experience is as valid as anyone elses. What works for you is just fine.
FWIW, Mark Twain says that common sense is a series of prejudices established in the human mind before the age of eighteen.

GM should base the NorthStar design off this lawnmover.... :)

mumblypeg
08-19-05, 08:52 PM
GM should base the NorthStar design off this lawnmover.... :)


but then this forum would be so boring....

rickyc
09-25-05, 09:34 PM
"And, just to aggravate you further, I know of a cheaper way to get the rain-X effect, without having to buy and use rain-X, but I won't tell you."

Would you share the secret with me, please??

Here in So. Fla. It rains really hard.

Thanks!!

Rickycjc@bellsouth.net

rickyc
09-25-05, 10:31 PM
I'm new here - 93 Allante.

"
For the record, I bought a 99STS with 40K. I soon learned about the "feature" of the aggressive cross hatching, when I seemed to be missing oil. I found this forum and it has been a blessing.

To date, I upgraded the brakes with cross drilled rotors, and have followed Sal Collaziano's advice to oil, coolant, etc. Now I have 116K, and guests at my home yesterday, complimented me on my new STS in the garage! I guess everyone isn't hip to the new 05/06's yet!

In my experience, given that I add a quart of dino oil every 1K, the OLM is a terrific tool, and the car is still running as it did 76K ago!"

I'd like to know more about dino oil, cross hatching, cross drilled rotors, and Sal Collaziano's advice to oil, coolant, etc..

Thanks!!

rickycjc@bellsouth.net

mcowden
09-25-05, 10:45 PM
I'd like to know more about dino oil, cross hatching, cross drilled rotors, and Sal Collaziano's advice to oil, coolant, etc..

To sum it up quickly, conventional oil, 10W-30 is the GM recommendation for most climates, synthetic oil is neither required nor recommended in MOST Northstar engines. Follow the advice of the Oil Life Monitor for best results. The engine can tend to burn some oil, up to around 1 qt. per 1000 miles, partially due to the aggressive cross-hatch pattern that is deliberately left in the cylinder bore during the honing process. It is left there to help hold more oil near the top of the cylinders where it is needed. 1 qt. per 1000 miles is pretty normal and nothing to worry about. Give the car regular doses of Wide Open Throttle to near 6000 RPMs to help keep the ring lands and combustion chambers clear of carbon. That may help with oil consumption.

For 96 or newer cars, DexCool coolant is installed from the factory. Drain and refill the cooling system at the recommended interval (5 yrs, 100k IIRC) to keep the additives refreshed and the system protected. Mix it 50/50 with distilled water and use 2 tubes of Bar's Leaks Golden Seal powder or 6 Bar's Leaks pellets (or GM pellets) installed in the radiator hose NOT IN THE SURGE TANK to help prevent nuisance leaks.

Use the forum search feature above to look up more information about pretty much any topic you have questions about. You will probably find a wealth of information to help you keep your car in good condition for a long time. Let us know if you have any questions. Welcome and good luck!

rickyc
09-26-05, 10:46 PM
Thanks for the reply.

What's the deal with dino oil and crossed drilled rotors?

Trying to learn!!

mcowden
09-27-05, 12:12 PM
Thanks for the reply.

What's the deal with dino oil and crossed drilled rotors?

Trying to learn!!

The term "dino oil" refers to regular, conventional, non-synthetic motor oil. The word "dino" comes from "dinosaur" because conventional oil is refined from crude oil out of the ground, and it's presumed that dinosaurs and other prehistoric life decomposed and eventually turned into that crude oil.

The Northstar was designed and tested with dino oil, and 10W-30 is recommended in most climates. The newer Northstars with VVT require synthetic because of the way the VVT system works, but non-VVT Northstars, which is most of them, do not require synthetic oil and GM does not recommend using it. The properties of synthetic oil are superior in some ways to conventional dino oil, but those extra properties provide little or no tangible benefits to the motor, and the Northstar is known to last 200k miles and more on conventional oil changed when the Oil Life Monitor says to change it. Save yourself lots of money: use regular oil and change it when the dashboard system says to change it. You'll save time and money and the motor will probably last you a long time as long as you maintain it the way it's supposed to be maintained.

As for cross-drilled or slotted rotors, I haven't personally tried them, but they can provide better braking performance in some applications. I don't know how well they work on Northstar Cadillacs. They work by venting the gases produced on the surface of the brake pad and rotor with intense heat created by intense friction. The gases reduce the friction surface area, and the slots or holes serve to vent the gas and increase the surface area, thereby providing better braking. Post your question in the brakes and suspension forum and you may get better answers.

If you want to see a bunch of people who have too much time on their hands, go take a look at http://www.bobistheoilguy.com and go to their Car and Light Truck Gas Engine Oil forum. Those guys obsess over various manufacturers and grades of oil, and you'll either learn a lot about how oil works and what oils work best in your various cars, or you'll want to blow your brains out.

Jack Ammann
09-27-05, 12:46 PM
unless varified by one of the "experts".

"VARIFIED"???...Well, that says it all about your intelligence, credibility, standing, and veracity. :yawn: :histeric:

Guyz1996deville
09-27-05, 02:54 PM
Well you guys sum up the reason for a forum. I hope it is for a good laugh because I am at work trying not to laugh out loud. Well on this note, I have found Ranger to be nothing but helpful and filled with knowledge. I am going to stay on his good side, So I don't have to change every hose and trinket and cover my *ss because I really don't know how to maintain the caddy....

Jack Ammann
09-27-05, 07:05 PM
I have found Ranger to be a very valuable asset to this forum and all other Forums on this board...and I may have been around this Forum longer than he has...LOL :D

AlBundy
09-27-05, 08:33 PM
Yea, Ranger and Mcowden are good guys. I enjoy reading their input as well as the world renowned and MIA Bbob.