: Breaking The Rebate Dependency



Ralph
07-28-05, 01:32 AM
"The good news: In June, General Motors (nyse: GM - news - people ) did a terrific job at slashing its inventories. In all, GM's July 1 inventories were down to 1,018,000 vehicles versus 1,367,000 at the same time last year. Of that 349,000-unit drop, 190,000 were trucks. That reduced the truck inventory to a much more manageable 707,000 units at the start of July.

GM reduced its passenger car inventory by 159,000 units, to 311,000 vehicles. July should be another good month for GM inventories. The "employee pricing" sale is continuing, and it is shutting factories for vacations and changeovers to 2006 models.

GM keeps hoping that if it builds better new cars and trucks that enough consumers will flock back, and that its market share will jump back up to 30%. I do not see this happening. GM has better new vehicles in the pipeline, but Americans are just too happy with their Hondas, Toyotas and BMWs. I doubt that GM can hold a 27% share unless it offers huge incentives, rebates or other giveaways. Even a 25% share may be a stretch—23% may be more realistic."

http://www.forbes.com/columnists/columnists/2005/07/26/generalmotors-backseatdriver-rebates-cz_jf_0726flint.html

majax
07-28-05, 01:35 AM
Or they could build some irresistable cars that aren't Cadillacs.

ben72227
07-28-05, 01:36 AM
Or, instead of throwing in all of these "incentives" and "rebates" they could just sell the cars at a lower MRSP with none of that crap. You're right, GM is getting better, but they still don't touch the Japs (especially interior-wise) in their bread and butter cars (i.e. Impala, G6, Malibu, Cobalt, etc.):cool:

What they need to do is just keep promoting how good these vehicles are, and they need some more product placement! For example, they should get one of the Cobalt Supercharged Coupes in the next Fast & Furious movie.:lildevil:

Ralph
07-28-05, 01:39 AM
Or, instead of throwing in all of these "incentives" and "rebates" they could just sell the cars at a lower MRSP

I agree.

majax
07-28-05, 01:40 AM
Okay I will reword what I said.

Affordable and irresistable cars. Now, when do we start seeing them?

addison_ii
07-28-05, 01:41 AM
Man that would really suck for GM if they did all this promoting and discounting only to end up overstocked again. I'm thinking they should just scale back production. That seems to be the best option right now IMO. I think that, with GM constantly bringing out new models to an already swollen playing field is going to continue to cause more harm.

Ralph
07-28-05, 01:42 AM
Man that would really suck for GM if they did all this promoting and discounting only to end up overstocked again. I'm thinking they should just scale back production. That seems to be the best option right now IMO. I think that, with GM constantly bringing out new models to an already swollen playing field is going to continue to cause more harm.


I also agree, and I think the major part of the problem is too many factories.

majax
07-28-05, 01:43 AM
Less, and I quote myself, "irresistable" cars can raise resale value and make for happy customers.

Ralph
07-28-05, 01:49 AM
Okay I will reword what I said.

Affordable and irresistable cars. Now, when do we start seeing them?

I think cars like the Cobalt are kind of boring, but I believe the Sky/Solstace will put some excitement back.

I REALLY wish Buick would build this one.....

http://www.cardesignnews.com/autoshows/2004/newyork/highlights/index5.html

But then people might say there is too much overlap...



Here is another concept, but I don't think it's good enough?? Who knows?? It reminds me of a loaded Vibe...

http://www.cardesignnews.com/autoshows/2003/detroit/highlights/h02-buick-centime.html

Ralph
07-28-05, 02:00 AM
Or they could build some irresistable cars that aren't Cadillacs.

But would that REALLY tear people away from their BMW's and Hondas they love so much?? :suspense:

ben72227
07-28-05, 02:05 AM
and keep getting rid of the overlapping cars too. For example, NOBODY but Chevy needs a minivan, Pontiac CERTAINLY doesn't need one, it being the "excitement" division, and Buick doesn't need one either. That's the way to go; trim the brands down and give them distinctive identities:

Chevy - They sell budget cars (Aveo, Cobalt, Malibu, Impala), Trucks, and SUVS and the occasional van and of course, the Vette. In other words, they are the backbone of GM.

Pontiac - higher up than chevy, with a sportier feel. They sell the Solstice, G6, Torrent, GTO, and the Vibe. Everything else MUST go.

Buick - These are for people who want a nice car, but either can't afford or don't want the "flamboyance" of a Cadillac. They should sell the LaCrosse, Lucerne, and one Esuvee:p, my choice being the Rendezvous

Saturn - This is the car for people who don't like cars:p, or it was until recently. Now it seems that Saturn wants to go for Yuppies who can't afford a BMW 3 series, but still want a nice, near-luxury car. They should sell the SKY, AURA, and either the VUE or Relay.

GMC - I really DO NOT understand why they sell consumer trucks under this marque when they can be selling them under Chevy, which would save a lot of money on GM's part, I mean since they're all the same truck anyway. GMC should just sell (IMHO) commercial trucks.

Saab - As far as I'm concerned, Saab goes with Holden, Vauxhall, and Opel; No one here buys them, so it really doesn't matter:devil:.

Ralph
07-28-05, 02:08 AM
I never see new Saabs!!!


The Malibu just won an award for dependability for a 3 year old vehicle......

http://en.autos.sympatico.msn.ca/advice/windowshop.aspx?contentid=4022707&src=home&pos=Edit2


I still love Ions! :hide:

ben72227
07-28-05, 02:17 AM
IONS are good, but GM just needs ONE compact sports car, and that should be the Cobalt, since its new, and doesn't (yet) have the reliability issues that come with Saturns.

Speaking of product placement, it seems that GM got a GTO into that new "Stealth" movie with Jamie Foxx.

N0DIH
07-28-05, 02:19 AM
What cars does GM have that line up model for model with a Benz, or BMW that can beat them in most of not all catagories, handling, power, performance, etc?
Not many, if any. Cadillac is more on track than any GM division. With the V6 STS's and V8 STS's to line up with the 5 series BMW's, and the Deville's to go up against the 7 series, they have something. But look at the rest of GM, they are lost with lack of good direction. Each carline should have a solid focus on what model they are after to stack up the options and features to beat the competition.

GM tries to stack up other cars like FWD cars against cars like BMW that carry an aura of "exotic" that GM doesn't really have. It just isn't a match that works. Who are the buyers of the BMW's, Lexus, MB's, etc? Thos are the customers GM needs to win over.

As Sandy said, it isn't the total cost of the car anymore, it is the monthly cost of the car. Sick world (It makes me sick to think of going into debt >$30K just to get a car these days) Can I afford the monthly, sure! Doesn't matter if you are paying 7 years on the car that most people are tired of in 2-3 years. Like that Lending Tree commerical "I'm in debt up to my eyeballs, please help me!"

Ralph
07-28-05, 02:19 AM
IONS are good, but GM just needs ONE compact sports car, and that should be the Cobalt, since its new, and doesn't (yet) have the reliability issues that come with Saturns.

Speaking of product placement, it seems that GM got a GTO into that new "Stealth" movie with Jamie Foxx.

I'm not aware of that movie....interesting. We can't buy GTO's in Canada.

Regarding Saturn, I think both divisions can have a similar model (because each division has its loyal customer base) but I think they simply make too many of them, and if they make too many of them they DEFINATELY need to just lower the price instead of offering rebates and then people come to expect these rebates all the time??

addison_ii
07-28-05, 02:20 AM
and keep getting rid of the overlapping cars too. For example, NOBODY but Chevy needs a minivan, Pontiac CERTAINLY doesn't need one, it being the "excitement" division, and Buick doesn't need one either. That's the way to go; trim the brands down and give them distinctive identities:

Chevy - They sell budget cars (Aveo, Cobalt, Malibu, Impala), Trucks, and SUVS and the occasional van and of course, the Vette. In other words, they are the backbone of GM.

Pontiac - higher up than chevy, with a sportier feel. They sell the Solstice, G6, Torrent, GTO, and the Vibe. Everything else MUST go.

Buick - These are for people who want a nice car, but either can't afford or don't want the "flamboyance" of a Cadillac. They should sell the LaCrosse, Lucerne, and one Esuvee:p, my choice being the Rendezvous

Saturn - This is the car for people who don't like cars:p, or it was until recently. Now it seems that Saturn wants to go for Yuppies who can't afford a BMW 3 series, but still want a nice, near-luxury car. They should sell the SKY, AURA, and either the VUE or Relay.

GMC - I really DO NOT understand why they sell consumer trucks under this marque when they can be selling them under Chevy, which would save a lot of money on GM's part, I mean since they're all the same truck anyway. GMC should just sell (IMHO) commercial trucks.

Saab - As far as I'm concerned, Saab goes with Holden, Vauxhall, and Opel; No one here buys them, so it really doesn't matter:devil:.

I agree with you on that. I think GM sell trucks under both Chevy and GMC because some people identify with a certain brand. For instance I have a friend who doesn't/won't buy Chevy but loves GMC, even though they are the same exact trucks/vans/and "esuvees".

ben72227
07-28-05, 02:27 AM
Yes, I'm sure you know about Esuvees. The huge creatures must be ridden properly, or else bad things happen.:lildevil: In case you've never seen one:
http://www.bruvva.com/images/gallery/Esuvee0018.jpg

Ralph
07-28-05, 02:30 AM
Yes, I'm sure you know about Esuvees. The huge creatures must be ridden properly, or else bad things happen.:lildevil: In case you've never seen one:
http://www.bruvva.com/images/gallery/Esuvee0018.jpg

What the heck is that!!??

Oh great, a big pic, now I have to scroll back and forth to read EACH post! :lildevil: :D :sneaky:

ben72227
07-28-05, 03:00 AM
It's an Esuvee. Learn more at Esuvee.com:devil:

Ralph
07-28-05, 03:03 AM
It's an Esuvee. Learn more at Esuvee.com:devil:

OMG that's CREEPY!! :suspense:


;)

majax
07-28-05, 03:58 AM
I guess you never got the esuvee commercial in Canada. In the commericial it shows people riding this things around and what not.

Ralph
07-28-05, 03:59 AM
I guess you never got the esuvee commercial in Canada. In the commericial it shows people riding this things around and what not.

I think I'm happy we don't get that commercial. :yup:

majax
07-28-05, 04:01 AM
I just realized it is about a safety campaign to drive your S.U.V. safely and it's by the U.S. gov. hmm...

Ralph
07-28-05, 04:03 AM
I just realized it is about a safety campaign to drive your S.U.V. safely and it's by the U.S. gov. hmm...

Why all the fur on it??

I just don't "get it." :helpless: :shhh:

We have commercials that brainwash us to always wear our seatbelts, (government) and if we don't there is a hefty fine. :tisk:

addison_ii
07-28-05, 04:06 AM
Why all the fur on it??

I just don't "get it." :helpless: :shhh:

We have commercials that brainwash us to always wear our seatbelts, and if we don't there is a hefty fine. :tisk:
That's the midrange model the Esuvee LS. The upscale model has leather and chrome shoes w/optional remote start.:D

majax
07-28-05, 04:08 AM
Do they show bloody crashes and people w/o seatbelts going through windows or something?

I think they are just having fun when the make the Esuvees big harry beasts. They are king of the road sorta.

I have not seen a buckle up commercial in ages.

Ralph
07-28-05, 04:10 AM
Do they show bloody crashes and people w/o seatbelts going through windows or something?


No, but they show dummies going through the windshield, etc. The commercials used to have blood in them. :suspense:

Hey, my new sig is up!!!

majax
07-28-05, 04:13 AM
Remember the two crash test dummies that talked? They would go through accidents and have their arms fall off or something because they did not wear their seatbelts. Then they would say buckle up.

majax
07-28-05, 04:15 AM
Vince and Larry the crash test dummies, thats it!

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ncdiv/docs/patbroc.htm

Ralph
07-28-05, 04:16 AM
Remember the two crash test dummies that talked? They would go through accidents and have their arms fall off or something because they did not wear their seatbelts. Then they would say buckle up.

You got those SAME ones??!!!

Cool.

We used to have more graphic commercials for seatbelts, like emergency room kaos at a hospital with blood, etc. I think it worked for most people...

ben72227
07-28-05, 04:22 AM
The Esuvee commercial is making fun of SUVs; they compare driving an SUV to riding a bull - you have to be able to ride your bull correctly or you get bucked off; likewise you have to drive your SUV correctly or you have a roll over. The commercial really is quite funny. At the gas station, instead of gas pumps, there is a trough, where the Esuvees can "guzzle" gas:lildevil:. It's really quite funny. I think the commercial is at the website...

majax
07-28-05, 04:24 AM
Well that is what my parents said drivers ed was for them, bloody car crash videos. When I did it though everything was easy on the eyes and calm.

Well I am going to watch vince and Larry crash a Buick Century now.

majax
07-28-05, 04:29 AM
The Esuvee commercial is making fun of SUVs; they compare driving an SUV to riding a bull - you have to be able to ride your bull correctly or you get bucked off; likewise you have to drive your SUV correctly or you have a roll over. The commercial really is quite funny. At the gas station, instead of gas pumps, there is a trough, where the Esuvees can "guzzle" gas:lildevil:. It's really quite funny. I think the commercial is at the website...

Yeah the commericial is on the site. I can agree with you that it is pretty funny as far as commercials go.:coolgleam

Sandy
07-28-05, 07:42 AM
3 corrections:

PONTIAC: They do not need BOTH the VIBE & trhe TORRENT! Since the Vibe aids & helps Toyota (Matrix identical) kill the VIBE and keep the Torrent and bring back the BONNEVILLE ! It's been with us since 1957. It's a Pontiac icon!

BUICK: Deep 6 the dumb Rendezvous.

GMC: Keep it ! It has the highest owner loyality of ANY (Cadillac included) General Motors vehicle. The cost of keeping GMC is spread out more than any other vehicle, since the Chevys are the same, they get dual outlets to sell the same vehicles.

SAAB: Saab in New Jersey & New York are HOT selling cars. I see new ones everyday, especially the 9.3 Convertible and the 9.5 AERO ! Saab holds its own !

mccombie_5
07-28-05, 08:08 AM
Saab - As far as I'm concerned, Saab goes with Holden, Vauxhall, and Opel; No one here buys them, so it really doesn't matter:devil:.

Ahem. I bought a Vauxhall last year, and have done for many years. You cant forget about Europe :D

Jesda
07-28-05, 08:40 AM
I once saw an SUV eat a small child when it didnt think anyone was looking. The police didnt believe me.

Ralph: Nice sig!

mccombie_5
07-28-05, 09:03 AM
I once saw an SUV eat a small child when it didnt think anyone was looking. The police didnt believe me.


It was mine :sneaky:

ben72227
07-28-05, 02:07 PM
Ahem. I bought a Vauxhall last year, and have done for many years. You cant forget about Europe :D

I was talking about here in the U.S. I know that people in England buy Vauxhalls; its the domestic brand there:rolleyes:, and I'm sure people in Sweden buy Saabs, since it is the domestic there too. But in the US, Saab serves no real purpose, its just one of the niche brands - kind of like MINI. In fact, i may be wrong, but hasn't Saab had a negative profit ever since GM bought them?

mccombie_5
07-28-05, 04:23 PM
I was talking about here in the U.S. I know that people in England buy Vauxhalls; its the domestic brand there:rolleyes:, and I'm sure people in Sweden buy Saabs, since it is the domestic there too. But in the US, Saab serves no real purpose, its just one of the niche brands - kind of like MINI. In fact, i may be wrong, but hasn't Saab had a negative profit ever since GM bought them?

Hmmmmm i dont know about that one with the proit, i think Saabs demand a jigher quality than many other of their brands-theyre premium, i would take a Saab 9-3 over a BMW 3 Series. Its a shame they dont sell in bigger numbers....
On the flipside of that, GM rebadged Deawoo as Chevrolet here and theyre still very poor.... comparing well to Kia and HYundai, but worse because all of the cars are old

1toycad
07-28-05, 04:50 PM
3 corrections:

PONTIAC: They do not need BOTH the VIBE & trhe TORRENT! Since the Vibe aids & helps Toyota (Matrix identical) kill the VIBE and keep the Torrent and bring back the BONNEVILLE ! It's been with us since 1957. It's a Pontiac icon!

BUICK: Deep 6 the dumb Rendezvous.

GMC: Keep it ! It has the highest owner loyality of ANY (Cadillac included) General Motors vehicle. The cost of keeping GMC is spread out more than any other vehicle, since the Chevys are the same, they get dual outlets to sell the same vehicles.

SAAB: Saab in New Jersey & New York are HOT selling cars. I see new ones everyday, especially the 9.3 Convertible and the 9.5 AERO ! Saab holds its own !

Sandy:

We were recently looking for a car for our 17 year old daughter. We compared the Matrix and the Vibe. Even though the two of them share the same DNA, the Vibe rides and feels better. Go figure.

We ended up getting her a Volvo wagon. Its safety record is hard to beat. She did not want a Benz wagon like her oldest sister. Sibling rivalry I guess.

I agree with you on GMC. I may never, ever, ever, ever, buy another Caddy. But I will continue to buy Yukons and other GMC offerings. Their V8 engines are bulletproof and very forgiving of lapsed maintenance schedules.

Saabs also sell like hotcakes in sunny So. Cal.--even with its Subaru DNA, the Saabs are nice cars.

Playdrv4me
07-28-05, 05:55 PM
Yea I agree with N0DIH, Debt is kinda the American way these days. I mean I for one care much less about what the total cost of the vehicle I buy is if I get a screaming deal on the monthly payment.

mccombie_5
07-28-05, 06:13 PM
Its the same here. Everyone is in debt. I can safely say that i have none. I dont even have a mortgage now. I like it this way. I always pay cash for my cars, i wouldnt buy a car that i couldnt actually afford to pay for without finance, just my personal preference.

Ralph
07-28-05, 08:38 PM
G6 convertable.....

http://www.forbes.com/columnists/columnists/2005/06/28/GM-solstice-pontiac-cz_jf_0628flint.html

"Then there's the Pontiac G6. It's bad enough that GM couldn't have made a big splash last fall by bringing out the new G6 sedan, coupe and the convertible all at once. Instead, it dribbled out the sedan last fall, and the coupe was supposed to arrive this spring but is six weeks late. The G6 convertible? It was originally scheduled for this fall--again, not a great time for this type of car--but it has been pushed back until next spring, a year and a half after the sedan. Yes, BMW can get away with trickling out its new models, but a struggling mass-market brand like Pontiac would have been better served by rolling out several G6 variants all at once.'

Ralph
07-28-05, 08:44 PM
Saab holds its own !

"Buick sells twice as many vehicles in the U.S. than Saab sells globally, but GM seems more interested in keeping Saab alive --with rebadged Subarus and Chevys--than in saving Buick."

http://www.forbes.com/columnists/columnists/2005/06/14/generalmotors-buick-discontinuation-cz_jf_0614flint.html

ben72227
07-29-05, 12:02 AM
Exactly - Saab is one brand they SHOULD dump. I mean, whats the incentive to buy a Saab? When you can get a GOOD European car like a BMW or Mercedes? Or even get a better American car, like a Cadillac.

majax
07-29-05, 12:08 AM
Its the same here. Everyone is in debt. I can safely say that i have none. I dont even have a mortgage now. I like it this way. I always pay cash for my cars, i wouldnt buy a car that i couldnt actually afford to pay for without finance, just my personal preference.

I guess you could call it "living within your means." Now think about this. You want to buy a $20,000 and you need it soon because your current one is about to die (oh, and you are middle class). What do you do? Save up 20,000?? for most that would take at least a couple of years unless they did not want to eat much or have hot water and roof over their head. How about you buy what you can afford at the time being? Most people cannot just write a check for $2,000 let alone enough for a good used car ($5000 plus). If you settle for a $2,000 car then you end up paying for repairs probably and it will not be as fuel efficient as a newer one (most likely). Or you could go to the bank and get $20000 and buy the safe, new, clean, reliable car you want and then just pay the bank $400 a month for about 3 years plus interest.

The same goes for a good house. Sadly I doubt my parents will ever pay off their house on a 30 year loan. Of course what you pay off now can be put towards another house if we move.

Nonetheless, I agree with you. I don't believe you should be owing large sums of money. But, really the whole loan system works. Most things get paid off.

A loan is paying for my study abroad in Germany which I believe will be a wonderful memorable and life changing experience. Now would you call that a bad investment? (not that you did)

Debt seems like such an evil word these days. But, if we all work hard and earn our pay check and pay our monthly bills (debt) then the economy will keep a runnin.

Ultimatley IMO cash is just a cheaper way of buying things and maybe a bit less worry is assosiated with having things paid off.

majax
07-29-05, 12:12 AM
Exactly - Saab is one brand they SHOULD dump. I mean, whats the incentive to buy a Saab? When you can get a GOOD European car like a BMW or Mercedes? Or even get a better American car, like a Cadillac.

I believe a Saab is cheaper than a BMW or Mercedes.

Like why move to Idaho when you can move to Arkansas? Because you may have an attachment to Idaho or Idaho suits your charecter more. There are people who buy Saabs just like there are people who live in Idaho.

ben72227
07-29-05, 01:25 AM
Like why move to Idaho when you can move to Arkansas?

Good Question:devil: Really, I mean if you're moving to that part of the country, why Idaho? I mean, you got Montana to the east and Washington to the west. No real reason to go to Idaho, I mean, it's the Kansas of the Northeast. :p

But seriously Majax, even if you wanted to be "different" it makes no sense to get a Saab. They just aren't that good. I mean, most of them are either rebadged GM cars or they just suck:devil:

majax
07-29-05, 01:32 AM
You must remember that a lot of people who buy GM's lower brands don't know what good cars are. That is also why they aim sales of Pontiac at women.

I don't entirely think that but I may be on to something...

You go to Idaho because you want to pay %20+ Income Tax, have a $5.15 an hour minimum wage, A schooling system ranked 3rd from last, need I go on? I cannot stand a lot of things about this state but please don't pick on it, I have to live here till we move to Olympia Washington. ;)

Ralph
07-29-05, 01:34 AM
But seriously Majax, even if you wanted to be "different" it makes no sense to get a Saab. They just aren't that good. I mean, most of them are either rebadged GM cars or they just suck:devil:

Basically true. GM's forced Saab to put too many Opel parts into the 9-3, it's not as interesting as it should be.

majax
07-29-05, 01:36 AM
Saab is not to "independent" is it

Ralph
07-29-05, 01:42 AM
Saab is not to "independent" is it

Not really at all anymore. They have their own engineering center in Trollhatten, Sweden, but that only does re-engineering work of GM's global platforms. And now the 9-7 and the 9-2 are pretty much badge engineering jobs forced on Saab.

majax
07-29-05, 01:53 AM
As far as I remember, I think I read that everyone at GM was reluctant to buy Saab back in the 70's.

Playdrv4me
07-29-05, 02:09 AM
I guess you could call it "living within your means." Now think about this. You want to buy a $20,000 and you need it soon because your current one is about to die (oh, and you are middle class). What do you do? Save up 20,000?? for most that would take at least a couple of years unless they did not want to eat much or have hot water and roof over their head. How about you buy what you can afford at the time being? Most people cannot just write a check for $2,000 let alone enough for a good used car ($5000 plus). If you settle for a $2,000 car then you end up paying for repairs probably and it will not be as fuel efficient as a newer one (most likely). Or you could go to the bank and get $20000 and buy the safe, new, clean, reliable car you want and then just pay the bank $400 a month for about 3 years plus interest.

The same goes for a good house. Sadly I doubt my parents will ever pay off their house on a 30 year loan. Of course what you pay off now can be put towards another house if we move.

Nonetheless, I agree with you. I don't believe you should be owing large sums of money. But, really the whole loan system works. Most things get paid off.

A loan is paying for my study abroad in Germany which I believe will be a wonderful memorable and life changing experience. Now would you call that a bad investment? (not that you did)

Debt seems like such an evil word these days. But, if we all work hard and earn our pay check and pay our monthly bills (debt) then the economy will keep a runnin.

Ultimatley IMO cash is just a cheaper way of buying things and maybe a bit less worry is assosiated with having things paid off.

Not to mention that having loans that are within your ability to pay (the reason there is a DTI ratio), also helps build a healthy credit profile. And even if you never wanted a loan, or could afford not needing one, employers, insurance companies etc. all check your credit and establish premiums and hiring decisions based on it. Its good to maintain a healthy balance.

majax
07-29-05, 02:12 AM
agreed. Now, what my grandmother did was get a few good credit cards and then she would never use them but instead would pay with cash. That way she had good credit.

ben72227
07-29-05, 02:38 AM
You must remember that a lot of people who buy GM's lower brands don't know what good cars are.

Unfortunately...True. And the ones who do know what good cars are would NEVER even think about getting one of GM's bread and butter cars. For example, my father just bought a Honda CR-V. Being the GM loyalist that I am, I suggested that he look at the Equinox or the Vibe, but he wouldn't even give me the time of day.:p It's because his Honda never had any problems, and even if GM does get good, why would these people switch to a risky brand when they KNOW that Honda and Toyota will always be reliable. And still, even if the GM IS reliable, you still have to deal with the dreaded GM interior, which even now, still can't touch Honda.

majax
07-29-05, 03:01 AM
Yeah the equinox has a rock hard plastic interior. I can agree that some people will not switch back but everyday a new consumer/person is born, lol. Now think about this. If you had not had that Cadi as your first car but instead a Honda would you loyal to Honda yourself? I think if a companys cars last long enough that they are still good when the younger buyers get them used then they will buy new ones when they grow up and have money.

ben72227
07-29-05, 03:28 AM
If you had not had that Cadi as your first car but instead a Honda would you loyal to Honda yourself?

Probably not, because (A) His CR-V with the I4 has NO acceleration, and it is scary to go up hills in that thing and (B) My grandfather (my dad's dad) is one of the few remaining Doolittle Raiders still alive. Unlike him, I don't HATE the Japanese (I've bought Sony products, walkman, playstation) but there is no way I would spend more than $1000 on a Jap product when there is an American alternative that is decent.

Besides, my other grandfather (a millionaire civil engineer who built a lot of Arkansas' roads) has had Caddys since I was a baby, and I must say I've been in love with his black '93 STS since I can remember. Plus, I hate ricers.:devil:

mccombie_5
07-29-05, 03:30 AM
I guess you could call it "living within your means." Now think about this. You want to buy a $20,000 and you need it soon because your current one is about to die (oh, and you are middle class). What do you do? Save up 20,000?? for most that would take at least a couple of years unless they did not want to eat much or have hot water and roof over their head. How about you buy what you can afford at the time being? Most people cannot just write a check for $2,000 let alone enough for a good used car ($5000 plus). If you settle for a $2,000 car then you end up paying for repairs probably and it will not be as fuel efficient as a newer one (most likely). Or you could go to the bank and get $20000 and buy the safe, new, clean, reliable car you want and then just pay the bank $400 a month for about 3 years plus interest.




I agree debt can work, if it isnt too large, by too large i mean you will pay it off within a reasonable amount of time, obviously a mortgage is the biggest debt most people will ever have, the only reason i have my mortgage paid off is because i was very, very lucky a few years ago.

I also do know that debts can get excessive. My own father for example, had to dramatically downsize a few years ago, because the debt was spiralling out of control, he was £120k deep plus a mortgage. He sold his house and the two cars he and his wife need, and he now lives in a much smaller house, with two older, cheaper cars, (he was in a finance deal on a pair of new Vauxhalls and it was ALOT of money per month) but hes alot less worried, i just took that as a subtle warning. Dont get me wrong here, i offered to help him out because i was worried about him being made bankrupt, but he wouldnt take my offer.
I would agree if i could not afford to buy a car full cash i would probably have to get it on some finance deal. I am very lucky in having my job and to be able to afford to buy things for cash. But for many people a car is neccesary, as is a home, so i would be able to live with those debts if i had to. Fortunately i dont.
I also dont see myself as any different to the next guy, yes i am lucky enough to have scored a high paid job, but essentially im a working class boy who got lucky.......

All I meant to say by my remark is, it is my personal preference not to have debt. I'm not saying it doesnt work. Debt is okay if you can afford the payments.

1toycad
07-29-05, 07:40 PM
I agree debt can work, if it isnt too large, by too large i mean you will pay it off within a reasonable amount of time, obviously a mortgage is the biggest debt most people will ever have, the only reason i have my mortgage paid off is because i was very, very lucky a few years ago.

I also do know that debts can get excessive. My own father for example, had to dramatically downsize a few years ago, because the debt was spiralling out of control, he was £120k deep plus a mortgage. He sold his house and the two cars he and his wife need, and he now lives in a much smaller house, with two older, cheaper cars, (he was in a finance deal on a pair of new Vauxhalls and it was ALOT of money per month) but hes alot less worried, i just took that as a subtle warning. Dont get me wrong here, i offered to help him out because i was worried about him being made bankrupt, but he wouldnt take my offer.
I would agree if i could not afford to buy a car full cash i would probably have to get it on some finance deal. I am very lucky in having my job and to be able to afford to buy things for cash. But for many people a car is neccesary, as is a home, so i would be able to live with those debts if i had to. Fortunately i dont.
I also dont see myself as any different to the next guy, yes i am lucky enough to have scored a high paid job, but essentially im a working class boy who got lucky.......

All I meant to say by my remark is, it is my personal preference not to have debt. I'm not saying it doesnt work. Debt is okay if you can afford the payments.

Great piece of advice. I've raised my kids to live debt-free. Except for our home, which is darned nearly impossible to buy for cash in So. Calif., I live as debt-free as possible. Even that will be paid off soon. It helps me sleep better at night.

In the U.S. the only time debt makes sense is when it can be written off in our income-tax returns. Or when it is business-related and can be amortized over a reasonable time. Otherwise debt, and especially credit card debt, is very bad mojo! :tisk:

Which car did you end up getting? The Jag or the VW?

mccombie_5
07-29-05, 07:43 PM
Which car did you end up getting? The Jag or the VW?

Both :lildevil: well kind of. I went and singed over for the Phaeton last week. And im waiting until December for a V8 Jaguar :D And my wife says its ok!!! Wooo.

N0DIH
07-29-05, 11:15 PM
Congrats!!! :worship: And in California no less,:worship: :worship: I am not debt free yet, but solidly on my way to it. I just get sick at the comercials pushing financing for everything. Heck, McDonalds and BK take Visa/Mastercard now. Ok, I use it with my Visa Check card, so I like it, but how many people just charge everything they eat on credit, day in day out and not have the cash to pay for it, or just keep the cash for other things, or just use the card to live beyond their means?? I know, when I did have a card and no money (Try being an E4 in the US Army with a family of 4 and not being able to get Gov quarters and having to live on the economy with not enough BAQ) it became too easy to use. It is long gone now, but it did cost me dearly to pay off. Keep up the good work! :thumbsup: I have paid cash for the cars we have bought in the last few years, and slowly I am able to buy better and more $ ones as I have less debt. Andit feels good to have the title in MY name only!! (and my wife!)

On the Phaeton, get the AWD W12! I drove the FIRST VW prototype Phaeton to spin rubber on US streets. And that it did!!! All 4 wheels! 405HP! I hated the drive by wire throttle though, I can only hope that VW fixed taht before the production models hit, but I have heard Audi (shares the platofrm with the A8) has the same problem/complaints.


Great piece of advice. I've raised my kids to live debt-free. Except for our home, which is darned nearly impossible to buy for cash in So. Calif., I live as debt-free as possible. Even that will be paid off soon. It helps me sleep better at night.

In the U.S. the only time debt makes sense is when it can be written off in our income-tax returns. Or when it is business-related and can be amortized over a reasonable time. Otherwise debt, and especially credit card debt, is very bad mojo! :tisk:

Which car did you end up getting? The Jag or the VW?

1toycad
07-30-05, 12:23 AM
Congrats!!! :worship: And in California no less,:worship: :worship: I am not debt free yet, but solidly on my way to it. I just get sick at the comercials pushing financing for everything. Heck, McDonalds and BK take Visa/Mastercard now. Ok, I use it with my Visa Check card, so I like it, but how many people just charge everything they eat on credit, day in day out and not have the cash to pay for it, or just keep the cash for other things, or just use the card to live beyond their means?? I know, when I did have a card and no money (Try being an E4 in the US Army with a family of 4 and not being able to get Gov quarters and having to live on the economy with not enough BAQ) it became too easy to use. It is long gone now, but it did cost me dearly to pay off. Keep up the good work! :thumbsup: I have paid cash for the cars we have bought in the last few years, and slowly I am able to buy better and more $ ones as I have less debt. Andit feels good to have the title in MY name only!! (and my wife!)

On the Phaeton, get the AWD W12! I drove the FIRST VW prototype Phaeton to spin rubber on US streets. And that it did!!! All 4 wheels! 405HP! I hated the drive by wire throttle though, I can only hope that VW fixed taht before the production models hit, but I have heard Audi (shares the platofrm with the A8) has the same problem/complaints.

Like everyone, early on we made financial mistakes. Some of the lessons were very expensive, but we are all past that now.

Fortunately, my wife is good with money, so she gets the credit (no pun intended). Plus we've always resisted the temptation to take money out of the house for things like vacations or really expensive cars, like so many of our friends do. When the real estate bubble collapses, they are going to be so upside down on their mortgages they won't know what to do.

I buy used, but real nice cars. That way I can pay cash for them. Cars that will last me a long time and still run well. My oldest daughter's Benz wagon has over 190k miles ont he clock and it still runs like a fine Swiss watch. we bought it used and when it is time to get her a newer car, our son will get the wagon. I have routinely gotten 300k miles in one Benz (a diesel) and over 250k miles in another Benz (a gas engine) before I sold them. If you keep cars for a long time, even expensive cars end up costing very little over the long haul.

The best thing about living frugally is that: 1. I sleep better at night and 2. we are teaching our children the value of saving. I can't imagine a better legacy to pass along.

mccombie_5
07-30-05, 05:45 AM
On the Phaeton, get the AWD W12! I drove the FIRST VW prototype Phaeton to spin rubber on US streets. And that it did!!! All 4 wheels! 405HP! I hated the drive by wire throttle though, I can only hope that VW fixed taht before the production models hit, but I have heard Audi (shares the platofrm with the A8) has the same problem/complaints.

Thats quite something to drive the first! I unfortunately had to get a frugal engine for the Phaeton. The 3.0 TDI. I dont mind because on my commute the car doesnt get over 30mph for the last five miles of my journey, once you get into town its lucky to see 10. She's letting me get an R or a super V8 in the Jag:D Ralph showed me it and im in love. Its Red. With beige leather. And it purrs at you in the pictures. Roll on December ;)

Ralph
07-30-05, 06:33 PM
Thats quite something to drive the first! I unfortunately had to get a frugal engine for the Phaeton. The 3.0 TDI. I dont mind because on my commute the car doesnt get over 30mph for the last five miles of my journey, once you get into town its lucky to see 10. She's letting me get an R or a super V8 in the Jag:D Ralph showed me it and im in love. Its Red. With beige leather. And it purrs at you in the pictures. Roll on December ;)

So you are getting the beige leather with that color.....that will be stunning!! Lighter coloured wood, hopefully. ;) I'm not sure if you can choose the shade of wood colour on Jags....

mccombie_5
07-31-05, 03:32 PM
So you are getting the beige leather with that color.....that will be stunning!! Lighter coloured wood, hopefully. ;) I'm not sure if you can choose the shade of wood colour on Jags....

Its black or walnut if i remember rightly. Im going to consult my brochure.

Ralph
07-31-05, 07:10 PM
Its black or walnut if i remember rightly. Im going to consult my brochure.

I went to look at the dealership lots today and they had a new Lexus GS300 in that wine red metallic with beige/cream leather seats, what a beauty!!

I bet a STS in these colours will look terrific as well.

mccombie_5
07-31-05, 07:29 PM
I went to look at the dealership lots today and they had a new Lexus GS300 in that wine red metallic with beige/cream leather seats, what a beauty!!

I bet a STS in these colours will look terrific as well.

It is a nice combination! It would work on most big cars that you get leather on.

ben72227
08-01-05, 11:47 PM
Back to topic. It seems that GM has taken my advice, and instead of offering lame rebate gimmicks, they are just going to have lower initial MSRPs. Looks like they should effectively break the rebate dependency and in the mean time save lots of money advertising those rebates that won't be there anymore. Read more about it in this article from Edmunds:

DETROIT — In an effort to wean buyers away from big rebates, General Motors said Monday it was cutting sticker prices on 30 of its 76 models and is adding warranty changes and other extras as standard on some vehicles.

As examples, GM said the price of a 2006 Chevrolet Silverado Crew pickup truck will drop $3,055 to $27,990; the Saturn Ion 2 sedan will fall $2,455 to $12,490 and the Chevrolet Malibu will be cut $1,835 to $17,990.

All Hummer and Buick models in 2006 include a 4-year/50,000-mile warranty and the automaker has lengthened the list of models that will carry the OnStar communications system and the StabiliTrak handling system.

The new marketing strategy, called "Total Value Promise," is designed to offer prices that are closer to final transaction prices, in an era when consumers have come to expect big discounts.

The new promotion replaces GM's popular "Employee Discount for Everyone" program, which ended August 1 and reduced sticker prices on vehicles.

Ford on Monday also slashed sticker prices on some 2006 model-year vehicles, including its redesigned 2006 Explorer SUV.

What this means to you: Happy days are here again. GM abandons employee discount pricing, but seems committed to a long-term low-price strategy.

Ralph
08-01-05, 11:49 PM
Back to topic. It seems that GM has taken my advice, and instead of offering lame rebate gimmicks, they are just going to have lower initial MSRPs. Looks like they should effectively break the rebate dependency and in the mean time save lots of money advertising those rebates that won't be there anymore. Read more about it in this article from Edmunds:

Ya, I saw that on the news at suppertime. They don't want people to expect rebates all the time, etc. Good thing they listen to you! :hmm: :)

Ben, clear your pm box! :madtalkin

ben72227
08-02-05, 10:08 PM
PM box cleared:rolleyes:

Looks like Ford and Chrysler are copying off GM once more, with Ford's Blue Pricing or whatever its called.

In other news, Toyota laughed at us and RAISED their MRSPs and guess what, they will outsell GM even WITH higher prices:lildevil: They have the one thing GM will never have - THE CAMRY:bonkers:

Ralph
08-02-05, 10:27 PM
PM box cleared:rolleyes:

Looks like Ford and Chrysler are copying off GM once more, with Ford's Blue Pricing or whatever its called.

In other news, Toyota laughed at us and RAISED their MRSPs and guess what, they will outsell GM even WITH higher prices:lildevil: They have the one thing GM will never have - THE CAMRY:bonkers:


I had a HUGE thing about France typed up to pm you, but now I don't think I have the energy to retype it. :(

The thing about Toyota that bothers me is that they won't even haggle! They paid a huge fine last year for not haggling because people complained it says "dealer may sell for less" on the window sticker and they won't. A Toyota salesman told me why they won't haggle once and he said something like "well, we know that Toyotas are in such high demand, WHY should we haggle?? They will sell like hotcakes anyway?" That bugged me!! People need to stop buying Toyotas for just one day and then they'll honour that window sticker statement pretty fast!! :lildevil:

ben72227
08-03-05, 12:38 AM
You're right, Toyotas DO sell like hotcakes because they're priced right and they're reliable, and they're just nice cars. Quality cars.

Honda's seemed to be too expensive nowadays, and the new Civic looks UGLY. I mean the '06 redesign, looks like they stole that design from the new Mitsubishi Eclipse...:histeric:

Ralph
08-03-05, 12:53 AM
You're right, Toyotas DO sell like hotcakes because they're priced right and they're reliable, and they're just nice cars. Quality cars.

Honda's seemed to be too expensive nowadays, and the new Civic looks UGLY. I mean the '06 redesign, looks like they stole that design from the new Mitsubishi Eclipse...:histeric:

I'll have to see the new Civic in person before I say I don't like it or not.....I just don't know yet.......

you're right, it kind does look like the new Eclipse, with power to back it up too!

N0DIH
08-03-05, 05:04 AM
THANK GOD!!! The Camry is an over priced bucket. The people who buy it are clueless and don't know jack about cars or what it means to have a good solid SAFE car. I have rebuilt a camry engine at 79K miles due to a cracked piston (ok, not Toy's fault, the owner felt the car was SOOO reliable she didn't need to pop the hood for 25K miles, let alone CHANGE THE OIL!!! Heck she didn't even know what engine she had...) Toyota learned how to build engines from none other than Oldsmobile. Only Olds was 2x tighter tolerance than Toy, hence the super long life with that old crappy engine oils. But the cars are junk, they are not worth 50% of that they cost. The interiors suck (second only to Yugos), the cars feel cheap, the stereos suck, the seats are uncomfortable, the sunvisors are good for nothing. Yes, I have driven them, they are lousy cars. Yuk. And I can't fit 6 people in them. Heck, I can't fit five without everyone being crammed together. And thier knees being jammed in the seat in front of them.

Take that Camry and look underneath, you want to hit something with it? Maybe if you have a death wish, or don't have a family that needs you. I do. Go check out an insurance car lot for totaled cars. Those cars, along with the Accord and others (civic, corrola, etc) are among the most mangled. Why don't you check the statistics of lower body injuries, they will be bad in those cars. Don't even think for a second they are any more reliable than a same class GM car. You will be sadly mistaken. Statistics don't lie, but car companies want you to believe (and consumer reports, who I suspect is being paid off by the japansese car companies by the extreme bias they show) what they want you to beleive

I'll take my full frame Cadillac anyday over any toyota made. Am I saying that Cadillacs are the best? No, but I will say my LT1 Cad will last longer than any Camry ever made. And not to mention, cheaper to fix, if I have to!

Lets see the DPHU numbers of GM and Toyota and see who comes out on top.

So, I am not saying they are bad cars, I am saying they are not safe like my Cad, and that they are WAAAYYY overrated for what they REALLY are. Sorta like you HAVE to change your oil every 3000 miles.... Only if you THINK you need to. Engineering data doesn't lie. Salesmen do.

And I won't get into supporting a foreign country by buying cars that do not have a US based company where the profits STAY in the US supporting US employees, retirees, etc.... (please don't try to tell me they are MADE here, they are only assembled here to avoid paying import taxes :madtalkin )

Oh, MSRP's mean nothing, what are the buyers paying? That is not anywhere close to MSRP. I am sure GM Ford and ChryCo raised MSRP for 2006 too.




In other news, Toyota laughed at us and RAISED their MRSPs and guess what, they will outsell GM even WITH higher prices:lildevil: They have the one thing GM will never have - THE CAMRY:bonkers:

Ralph
08-03-05, 05:12 AM
THANK GOD!!! The Camry is an over priced bucket. The people who buy it are clueless and don't know jack about cars or what it means to have a good solid SAFE car. I have rebuilt a camry engine at 79K miles due to a cracked piston (ok, not Toy's fault, the owner felt the car was SOOO reliable she didn't need to pop the hood for 25K miles, let alone CHANGE THE OIL!!! Heck she didn't even know what engine she had...) Toyota learned how to build engines from none other than Oldsmobile. Only Olds was 2x tighter tolerance than Toy, hence the super long life with that old crappy engine oils. But the cars are junk, they are not worth 50% of that they cost. The interiors suck (second only to Yugos), the cars feel cheap, the stereos suck, the seats are uncomfortable, the sunvisors are good for nothing. Yes, I have driven them, they are lousy cars. Yuk. And I can't fit 6 people in them. Heck, I can't fit five without everyone being crammed together. And thier knees being jammed in the seat in front of them.

Take that Camry and look underneath, you want to hit something with it? Maybe if you have a death wish, or don't have a family that needs you. I do. Go check out an insurance car lot for totaled cars. Those cars, along with the Accord and others (civic, corrola, etc) are among the most mangled. Why don't you check the statistics of lower body injuries, they will be bad in those cars. Don't even think for a second they are any more reliable than a same class GM car. You will be sadly mistaken. Statistics don't lie, but car companies want you to believe (and consumer reports, who I suspect is being paid off by the japansese car companies by the extreme bias they show) what they want you to beleive

I'll take my full frame Cadillac anyday over any toyota made. Am I saying that Cadillacs are the best? No, but I will say my LT1 Cad will last longer than any Camry ever made. And not to mention, cheaper to fix, if I have to!

Lets see the DPHU numbers of GM and Toyota and see who comes out on top.

So, I am not saying they are bad cars, I am saying they are not safe like my Cad, and that they are WAAAYYY overrated for what they REALLY are. Sorta like you HAVE to change your oil every 3000 miles.... Only if you THINK you need to. Engineering data doesn't lie. Salesmen do.

And I won't get into supporting a foreign country by buying cars that do not have a US based company where the profits STAY in the US supporting US employees, retirees, etc.... (please don't try to tell me they are MADE here, they are only assembled here to avoid paying import taxes :madtalkin )

Oh, MSRP's mean nothing, what are the buyers paying? That is not anywhere close to MSRP. I am sure GM Ford and ChryCo raised MSRP for 2006 too.

Not to mention the "sludge" problem even new Toyotas have but they try to keep under wraps. That easy to find under google.....and I've posted links on it in the past. It has supposedly been a problem in some Corollas, Camrys, but I'm not sure about Lexus, but a simple search would solve that....

Last year I noticed that the Camry only had 3 stars for side impact, which matches a Dodge SX (Neon) and not that impressive, as compared to a Honda Accord which had 5 frontal and 4 for side, I believe.

Despite this, imports have no problem selling well......

http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=102889

"The employee discounts have "not affected my (new-vehicle) transaction prices," says Hugh Hall, owner of Performance Kia and Performance Nissan in Everett, Wash. "It has brought people into the market. It's got people out shopping. The only real effect it has had on us is we're obviously looking very hard at how we value any of the Big 3 domestic trade-ins. It's clearly affecting the resale value of those cars."

Business has been so good that he lacks parking spots to store trade-ins. "I just made an offer for a new lot for used cars," Hall says.

June figures show that sales at import dealerships remained strong. Toyota Division sales rose 12.1 percent in June from the year-ago month. Honda Division sales rose 7.8 percent, and Nissan Division was up 18.9 percent."

N0DIH
08-03-05, 11:14 PM
My mother in law has a 94 Corolla, and the starter had to be replaced (she was short on $, so I doctored it up for her, lasted 30K miles) at 70K. It was WORN OUT electrically, poor design. My 91 Cadillac 4.9L starter went 170K before it had to be repaired. It was a simple repair, so I fixed it. Hmmm.....

I haven't heard of the sludge problem, but I haven't looked either, haven't cared. I'll check into it...

Elvis
08-10-05, 05:09 PM
Just got word indirectly from my friend the general mgr. at the local Pontiac/GMC dealership that GM is definitely continuing with the deep discounts for as long as it takes.

They are apparently moving a substantial number of vehicles. With interest rates going up a little bit, that's good for GMAC as well.

ben72227
08-10-05, 07:22 PM
Exactly, nobody wants to buy a GM car UNLESS there are rebates to go with it. It's so bad that they actually had to extend the employee pricing (which was supposed to end Aug. 1) to ALL '05 models until they all get sold.


I have rebuilt a camry engine at 79K miles due to a cracked piston (ok, not Toy's fault, the owner felt the car was SOOO reliable she didn't need to pop the hood for 25K miles, let alone CHANGE THE OIL!!! Heck she didn't even know what engine she had...

And that's Toyota's fault that she didn't change the oil? Give me a break.



Badmouth Toyota all you want, but the fact remains that it is the number 1 family car in the country. My mom has a '99 LE V6 Camry, which still runs at over 100K miles, never had to take it in for anything except for routine maintenence and when she had body damage from some guy running a red light and slamming into her passenger side. And, my grandma lived through the F-150 hitting her door because of Toyota reinforcing the door panels, which helped it be the IIHS Best pick for '99 as well as 5 star crash ratings from the NHTSA.

As for the "sludging" problem or oil gelling, that only occurs because people don't take their cars in for routine maintenence/oil changes.

All of the competing GM cars for '99 in the Camry's class had LOADS of problems - the Olds Intrigue was known for having its Intake Manifold go as well as its ABS go out too. The Chevy Lumina had terrible fuel injectors, the SAME intake manifold problem as the olds, as well as problems with the Ignition lock cylinder. The Pontiac Grand Prix:bighead:, has so many problems for the '99 model that i'm not even going to TRY to list those...


Oh, MSRP's mean nothing, what are the buyers paying? That is not anywhere close to MSRP. I am sure GM Ford and ChryCo raised MSRP for 2006 too.

Not quite, they too have dropped MSRPs this year, I know Ford has for a fact - they're calling it the Ford Family Plan/Blue Plan, and Chrysler has the Employee Discounts too. You don't see Toyota HAVING to have discounts to actually move inventory, because people buy their cars at full MSRP.

majax
08-10-05, 08:35 PM
Toyota reinforcing the door panels, which helped it be the IIHS Best pick for '99 as well as 5 star crash ratings from the NHTSA.

As for the "sludging" problem or oil gelling, that only occurs because people don't take their cars in for routine maintenence/oil changes.

.

First of all my 1993 DeVille has reinforced doors/door panels. Nothing to special these days. I am good friends with woman who got T-boned by a guy driving a Toyota Highlander going 65 and she came out without a scratch. The GMC Envoy didn't even have side airbags. That is impressive.

Second of all, there a lot of people who have perfectly maintained their Toyotas and they still get the sludge problem. It just happens, it more depends on driving conditions and using synthetic oil or not. Though some could be maintenance.

Toyotas are good, but not perfect.