: Air intake upgrade - DTS Performance ?



BlueAngel#07
03-03-14, 01:22 PM
Does anyone make a air intake box upgrade for a northstar engine in a DTS?

Submariner409
03-03-14, 01:56 PM
Probably not, and why ??? The existing CAI installation and pleated filter flows more air than the engine can handle at WOT as-is.

Not as much bling, and cheaper to maintain ................. (NO, a K&N will do exactly nothing except lighten your wallet.)

BlueAngel#07
03-03-14, 02:17 PM
Probably not, and why ??? The existing CAI installation and pleated filter flows more air than the engine can handle at WOT as-is. Not as much bling, and cheaper to maintain ................. (NO, a K&N will do exactly nothing except lighten your wallet.)

I guess I should know by now. Lol. Thx
I want the other 8 horsepower!

Submariner409
03-03-14, 02:48 PM
So do I !!!! ............ hope springs eternal. I have done a slew of air duct/airbox work and the only thing I have done is to increase intake noise during WOT work. Sounds most blingy ricer, but no power to be had. Messed with a JET mechanically modified MAF - set mixture codes and threw away good money.......... tested it over a 1650 mile round trip to Florida and back a few years ago - did nothing except set codes and a mid-throttle bog. It's still on the shop shelf.

(A K&N sticker is good for 1.76 hp at idle.)

Horsepower - does CORSA make a cat-back for the new "DTS" ? On a 2000 - 2003 STS (VIN 9 Northstar) it's good for 16 hp at redline. (Hmmm............ Doesn't look like they do.)

Speedygman
03-03-14, 03:02 PM
If your wallet can stand it check these folks out?

http://www.hennesseyperformance.com/

04GrandAmGT
03-03-14, 03:16 PM
Sub can we start a sticky posting there are no Performance upgrades for the northstars, they are tapped out for power, any vehicle that has OBD-2 has been designed for optimal performance for the most part. the only time a intake or exhaust upgrade will do anything for power is on lets say a early 80's 350 small block because from factory they were so limited with the restrictive exhaust and little 2 barrel carbs.

MoistCabbage
03-03-14, 03:53 PM
If your wallet can stand it check these folks out?

http://www.hennesseyperformance.com/

A Hennessey FWD Cadillac sedan would be equal parts awesome and hilarious! :cool2: :histeric:

Ranger
03-03-14, 04:50 PM
These ought to be good for 10-20 HP at least.


https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Wkc4QY0FpRE/T7UwPOhxo8I/AAAAAAAAABE/RBy9Oyis874/s250-no/logo-250x250-google-plus.jpg

http://www.corsaperformance.com/images/gen_navigation_02-2.gif

http://lubeandoilguy.com/images/amsoil_logo.jpg

http://www.royalpurple.com/images/royal_purple_globe.png

04GrandAmGT
03-03-14, 06:01 PM
ams and royal, must be a super performance engine if you have 2 synthetics.

Submariner409
03-03-14, 06:25 PM
Sub can we start a sticky posting there are no Performance upgrades for the northstars, they are tapped out for power, any vehicle that has OBD-2 has been designed for optimal performance for the most part. the only time a intake or exhaust upgrade will do anything for power is on lets say a early 80's 350 small block because from factory they were so limited with the restrictive exhaust and little 2 barrel carbs.

Not quite - find the very recent thread titled "Vroom Vroom", in which there's a before and after dyno run of a 2001 STS fitted with a CORSA cat-back. Plus 16 hp and 6 lb/ft up around 5500 rpm, WOT.......... that's exactly the same result as the now-discontinued CORSA advertising dyno run of a similar car.

Here, Evrett - go back through the thread - Post #48 - http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-seville-cadillac-eldorado-forum/378042-vroom-vroom-2001-sts-corsa-dyno.html

I run a CORSA also and I can verify that the power change is real - and verifiable. The crossunder Y-pipe excess flash removal is worth another 2 hp. ........... and, as with all power gains, it all happens way up in the power band - no effect whatsoever at road loads and everyday driving speeds. It happens only at YeeeeeeHaaaaaaa !!!!!!

MoistCabbage
03-03-14, 06:30 PM
:yeaj:

Corsa advertised 16-20. The difference between my highest before, and highest after result, was 16 HP. The difference between my lowest before, and highest after result, was 20.

04GrandAmGT
03-04-14, 10:13 AM
- no effect whatsoever at road loads and everyday driving speeds. It happens only at YeeeeeeHaaaaaaa !!!!!!

LOL, but is it really worth paying $1000+ for 16hp ... and its only available for the sts, i know its a beautiful exhaust and they sound amazing, but to the average guy they dont want to spend that much money and only get 16hp

Submariner409
03-04-14, 10:24 AM
"only" 16 horsepower is significant when the FWD power hovers around 200 whp.

$1200 or so - let's look at a Chevy 327 ............. what does a good Edelbrock dual plane, tricked out Holley, fuel system, and tuning cost ? for how many hp ?? Cam/lifters/springs/valves - and an engine teardown ??? Big bucks.

Why do "modern" tuners sniff at less than 100 hp gains ??? Hell - back in '65 a 20 hp increase was earth-shattering........ and the little figures eventually begin to add up to big numbers.

As you posted, the OBD-II controlled cars are a bitch to tune for gains - so for someone to be able to slap on an exhaust system - cat-back at that - and realize 16+ hp is a big deal. Cost ???? How many Seville drivers do you see lined up for a CORSA ? ......... demand is so low that they quit the Deville series, and Seville is next. On the other hand, do you foresee Weiand and Edlebrock dropping SBC dual planes any time soon ?

Remember guys - we're talking about gains way up in the rpm/power curve, where your engine operates <1% of the time.......none of this makes a bit of difference at idle or cruising to Florida at 85 on 95. At WOT the engine and emissions controls disappear (open loop) and you can do some good stuff; on the other hand, during normal driving, the engine is emissions controlled - tightly.

See that left hand SAE power sequence ??? That's wheel horsepower. 16 of those is a big deal. The engine power is one thing - power on the pavement is entirely different - the generally accepted Northstar FWD powertrain loss figure is somewhere around 25%, so that whp figure equates to a ~26 hp gain at the flexplate.

04GrandAmGT
03-04-14, 11:11 AM
Yes but look at the technology we have available, some 4 cyl are pushing 300 Brake HP, ps a full holley top end kit, includes cam, heads, push rods... ETC, go for about $2000, and you go from 250hp to 400 without even trying that hard. now thats an engine from pre 1987 simple pushrod engine, look at a northstar, yeah doesnt quite have the Cu In but with DOHC, and alllll the other technology advancements you would think they would be able to put out a little more that 300 Brake HP

----------

Look at fords Boss 5.0 , Quite similar to a northstar at least the basics, and they are pushing 444hp, yeah it 0.4L bigger engine. but 144HP difference for a handfull of cubic inches, the northstar has potential it has just never been used to its full extent.

drewsdeville
03-04-14, 12:01 PM
Why do "modern" tuners sniff at less than 100 hp gains ??? Hell - back in '65 a 20 hp increase was earth-shattering........ and the little figures eventually begin to add up to big numbers.



Because this isn't '65 and this is the age of efficient and cheap forced induction and overbuilt factory engines - easy triple digit gains, never seeing so much as a valve spring. 16hp is good, but 16hp for $1000 isn't anything to get excited about anymore

Submariner409
03-04-14, 12:10 PM
Because this isn't '65 and this is the age of efficient and cheap forced induction - easy triple digit gains.

Forced induction is wonderful - especially on the OP's DTS Performance (FWD), which is where this stick-on horsepower thing all started. He can get a few hp, but they're few and far between.

EDIT: IF he could get 16 hp at the wheels from good exhaust shop work, in the order of things, that's significant.

04GrandAmGT
03-04-14, 12:35 PM
but its mostly gm's fault to blame, heck you can barely tune these engines only 93-99, and the 05+ RWD engines are tune able. gm could have done sooo much more the get these northstars more powerfull than they already are, one thing that never made sense to me is why in the world in the GXP , the sportiest car with a 4.6L Northstar they put the Vin Y engine in it.... :banghead:

eldoedwardo
03-04-14, 06:26 PM
hello everyone, nice discussion. Are you saying that a 9 is better than a Y? I know little about a Y and nothing about a 9. To know the differences would be very interesting. fyi my N* got 5 more HP by cleaning the winter clothes out of the trunk and letting my Dog ride shotgun instead of.... well you know who!
later Ed

MoistCabbage
03-04-14, 06:41 PM
For the last generation of FWD Northstar vehicles:

VIN Y - 275 HP, 3.11 final drive ratio.

VIN 9 - 292 HP, 3.71 final drive ratio.

The differences are the intake cams and PCM tuning.

Submariner409
03-04-14, 08:40 PM
Yeah - the VIN 9 changed hp ratings several times - I think the 98 - 2003 was 300 hp, then it dropped a bit. Whether it was changes to the SAE rating system or actual calibration changes - who knows ??

Too many engine changes at the 2000 redesign to go into........ maybe more in 2004, more in 2006.

Ranger
03-04-14, 09:31 PM
Neither engine is "better" than the other and the difference is minimal, as you can see. The only physical difference is the intake cam.

vincentm
03-05-14, 09:10 AM
Yeah - the VIN 9 changed hp ratings several times - I think the 98 - 2003 was 300 hp, then it dropped a bit. Whether it was changes to the SAE rating system or actual calibration changes - who knows ??

Too many engine changes at the 2000 redesign to go into........ maybe more in 2004, more in 2006.

97 too is 300hp :p

MoistCabbage
03-05-14, 09:25 AM
'94-'04 were 300 HP.

04GrandAmGT
03-05-14, 11:56 AM
95-02 ETC - 300HP
94-04 STS - 300HP
96-04 Condours/DTS - 300HP

Ranger
03-05-14, 12:06 PM
Who could tell the difference between 292 and 300. :noidea: It's just a number.

vincentm
03-05-14, 12:45 PM
Who could tell the difference between 292 and 300. :noidea: It's just a number.

Cadillac Geeks like us

eldoedwardo
03-05-14, 12:46 PM
The reason I asked was that I have read ( in the forum) that they are not interchangeable, and while shopping at
rockauto they always ask Y or 9. I have just learned the only physical difference is the intake cam and the PCM.
I should not have said 'better' I just meant difference. Are the heads different because of the intake cam? I see a lot of 9's at the pick-n-pull, egr, pr streering pumps, TB's, plenums. I need to be knowledgeable on those kinds of
things because I don't like to take their word on everything, I know the system is computerized I just want peace
of mind, I don't buy a lot of used parts but I would like to have the knowledge. N*'s rock.......thanks Ed

Ranger
03-05-14, 03:55 PM
The only difference is the cam grind. Almost all other parts are interchangeable.

MoistCabbage
03-05-14, 04:24 PM
Who could tell the difference between 292 and 300. :noidea: It's just a number.

:yeah:

I can't honestly say I felt the 16 wheel HP the Corsa added. Even while doing some WOT on the way home from getting it installed, there definitely wasn't an obvious difference (not that I was expecting one). it might feel feel a tiny bit more eager to accelerate at the end of the rev range, but that could very easily be a placebo effect. It's not easy to actually feel small changes in 4,000 pound vehicles. I roll my eyes every time someone posts that they can feel the difference when using higher octane fuel :yup: .

BlueAngel#07
03-05-14, 04:24 PM
Cadillac Geeks like us

Exactly

Ranger
03-05-14, 10:13 PM
I roll my eyes every time someone posts that they can feel the difference when using higher octane fuel :yup: .
Hehe, Yeah I just love that one.

Speedygman
03-06-14, 09:32 AM
Also my car rides and drives better when freshly washed and cleaned?

Submariner409
03-06-14, 09:45 AM
Also my car rides and drives better when freshly washed and cleaned?

Only slightly - the BIG differences come with boutique oils and cutesy filters. THAT's big power.


................ speed parts, modifications and "feel it" changes - Remember: dedicated tuners and racers work for a 1/10 second gain in many cases. No, you probably cannot feel a tenth in the quarter - but the timeslip does. 0.25 second in the quarter is HUGE for a daily driver street car.

eldoedwardo
03-06-14, 11:54 AM
Thank you Ranger, and of course everyone else also!
just quickly,I received info for GM_RPO's here, anyone know an address for Lincoln rpo, thanks Moderator

Ranger
03-06-14, 12:06 PM
Also my car rides and drives better when freshly washed and cleaned?
You noticed that too? :bigroll:

vincentm
03-06-14, 05:14 PM
Also my car rides and drives better when freshly washed and cleaned?

Mine is more aerodynamic, after good cleaning

MoistCabbage
03-06-14, 05:47 PM
If you want REAL performsnce upgrades, nothing beats these guys:

http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=11&zenid=XoocTHt,rM,a-qErDYf6D1

Submariner409
03-06-14, 05:55 PM
After you clay bar then swirl polish with an orbital, buff the final carnauba wax coat in a front-to-rear pattern. Decreases wind resistance. Much the same principle as why vertical or swirl pinstriping offers more airflow resistance than straight front to rear lines.

Speedygman
03-06-14, 10:50 PM
The first liar never has a chance?

BlueAngel#07
03-07-14, 02:48 AM
If you want REAL performsnce upgrades, nothing beats these guys: http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=11&zenid=XoocTHt,rM,a-qErDYf6D1

That hilarious ...lol

Submariner409
03-07-14, 06:00 PM
The first liar never has a chance?

If these guys ever saw the Vicky all discussions about cutesy air filters would go out the window (hint, hint).

slsgxpgtpman
03-10-14, 06:23 AM
, one thing that never made sense to me is why in the world in the GXP , the sportiest car with a 4.6L Northstar they put the Vin Y engine in it.... :banghead:

not sure if it made the most sense but my cousin and I were curious about the passing power of the Bonneville GXP with the LD8 (my cousin has an 04 GXP and can sometimes get access to a closed track for testing) so we did a simulated 3 car passing test on a closed track using my 05 Bonneville GXP with regular fuel vs my 08 Impala SS with its LS4 v8 323 HP. The test started from 55 to 100 mph then we traded cars and did the test again. guess which car won both times the GXP! but only by the hood of the car and then by only about half a hood, so it was a close test. but the LD8 with the 3.71 final drive ratio of the GXP is no slouch. I think my Impala SS had a 3.08 drive ratio and of course it was burning premium. I have since sold the Impala had too many cars and it was burning a quart of oil in 1100 miles or so. my GXP can run over 5,000 miles and no noticeable oil use. I have since considered my GXP a superior car over my Impala SS since it also had tranny problems early in its life.

BlueAngel#07
03-10-14, 09:43 AM
not sure if it made the most sense but my cousin and I were curious about the passing power of the Bonneville GXP with the LD8 (my cousin has an 04 GXP and can sometimes get access to a closed track for testing) so we did a simulated 3 car passing test on a closed track using my 05 Bonneville GXP with regular fuel vs my 08 Impala SS with its LS4 v8 323 HP. The test started from 55 to 100 mph then we traded cars and did the test again. guess which car won both times the GXP! but only by the hood of the car and then by only about half a hood, so it was a close test. but the LD8 with the 3.71 final drive ratio of the GXP is no slouch. I think my Impala SS had a 3.08 drive ratio and of course it was burning premium. I have since sold the Impala had too many cars and it was burning a quart of oil in 1100 miles or so. my GXP can run over 5,000 miles and no noticeable oil use. I have since considered my GXP a superior car over my Impala SS since it also had tranny problems early in its life.

That's really surprising, I would have thought that the big 400ci would ate the gxp alive having more torque.
I haven't had a chance to open up my DTS and was already curious about the final drives. (3:71)

Now I have to find a stretch of road :)

04GrandAmGT
03-10-14, 11:23 AM
That hilarious ...lol

i second that

1BadCadSTS
03-10-14, 11:38 AM
All bs aside the DTS lingered on the old Deville platform. As such the Volant intake and Corsa exhaust could be very easily adapted to work on the 06+ DTS.

Also noteworthy mad tuner has hacked ALL obd2 n*s. However when tuning other than better shift points and defeating the tq management 00-05 fwd northstars showed NO gains. When switching to a 91+ octane tune I believe he gained 5hp on an otherwise stock car.

BlueAngel#07
03-10-14, 12:49 PM
All bs aside the DTS lingered on the old Deville platform. As such the Volant intake and Corsa exhaust could be very easily adapted to work on the 06+ DTS. Also noteworthy mad tuner has hacked ALL obd2 n*s. However when tuning other than better shift points and defeating the tq management 00-05 fwd northstars showed NO gains. When switching to a 91+ octane tune I believe he gained 5hp on an otherwise stock car.

I would beside myself happy with as little as a corsa exhaust if I could get my hands on one, I would be satisfied at 300+ hp if not but 5 over just to say it is.
Corsa exhaust would have to sound sweet on a DTS. In my opinion.

I have considered having a pipe bender ( muffler shop) replicate a cat back system but doubt they could replicate the custom back pressure that the corsa has done the research to perfect. Would expect to loud or loss of performance.

Submariner409
03-10-14, 01:10 PM
The CORSA systems are larger, pipe-wise, than stock and there are NO - none, nada - baffles or roll bends anywhere in the entire cat-back. It has zero back pressure. Zero.

You can assemble a CORSA on the bench and shine a strong flashlight through the whole thing. No baffles ? Loud ? Yes and no. The whole thing is designed for sound tuning - the resonator and muffler internal pipes are absolutely straight - there are different sized holes and rectangles flame-cut into the pipes which resonate sound inside the muffler casings. It's very quiet around town and on the highway, but when you stick your foot in it the thing will wake the dead. Close behind or alongside my 2002 STS, at 2nd gear WOT shift point, the sound is almost painful. (Corvette convertible chase car)

Look hard at this CORSA Seville 28" long resonator - see the red carpet ????? The mufflers are the same. The bright reflections are edges of some of the tuning slots. There are NO baffles anywhere.

EDIT: Let me modify that "very quiet around town". Authoritative idle and reasonably quiet around town fits better.

BlueAngel#07
03-10-14, 01:48 PM
The CORSA systems are larger, pipe-wise, than stock and there are NO - none, nada - baffles or roll bends anywhere in the entire cat-back. It has zero back pressure. Zero. You can assemble a CORSA on the bench and shine a strong flashlight through the whole thing. No baffles ? Loud ? Yes and no. The whole thing is designed for sound tuning - the resonator and muffler internal pipes are absolutely straight - there are different sized holes and rectangles flame-cut into the pipes which resonate sound inside the muffler casings. It's very quiet around town and on the highway, but when you stick your foot in it the thing will wake the dead. Close behind or alongside my 2002 STS, at 2nd gear WOT shift point, the sound is almost painful. (Corvette convertible chase car) Look hard at this CORSA Seville 28" long resonator - see the red carpet ????? The mufflers are the same. The bright reflections are edges of some of the tuning slots. There are NO baffles anywhere. EDIT: Let me modify that "very quiet around town". Authoritative idle and reasonably quiet around town fits better. I get it.. I was referring to having a shop replicate it being the down side. As it would not be a " corsa" Cat back, and thus most likely would not sound like one.

I just got off the phone with Corsa and the seem to think that I could get the same results with just the Y pipe ( rear ) and the mufflers. The only problem would be the single tip for each side witch wouldn't look right in a dwelling meant for dual tips IMO

Guy at Corsa is also sending some dimensions to see if I can retro fit a Cat back from a STS.

Submariner409
03-10-14, 01:53 PM
You probably can - but take advice from some of the CORSA installs in these forums that went wrong - Measure twice, cut once.

They sell the dual 3 1/2" STS-style tips that are a direct fit to their muffler outlet stubs. Look in my albums.

Here's a picture of my OEM system - 20 pounds heavier than the CORSA and those Y-pipe bends neck down to 1 5/8" in places ............... The CORSA is smooth/huge all the way.

slsgxpgtpman
03-10-14, 02:41 PM
That's really surprising, I would have thought that the big 400ci would ate the gxp alive having more torque.
I haven't had a chance to open up my DTS and was already curious about the final drives. (3:71)

Now I have to find a stretch of road :)

the LS4 that came with my Impala SS was listed as 325 Cubic inches and came with DOD ...displacement on demand (which seemed to be problematic and generated a lot of GM TSB's and fixes)
I prefer my Northstars way less problems

04GrandAmGT
03-11-14, 12:01 PM
Sub you should post a vid of what it sounds like?

Submariner409
03-11-14, 01:34 PM
When I get a decent day, and can get Bert with Corvette, we'll give it a college try. He'll have to use his 'phone or camera - my stuff is the equivalent of two beer cans on a waxed string.

BlueAngel, Here are the tips, mufflers, and Y ................

BlueAngel#07
03-11-14, 04:16 PM
When I get a decent day, and can get Bert with Corvette, we'll give it a college try. He'll have to use his 'phone or camera - my stuff is the equivalent of two beer cans on a waxed string. BlueAngel, Here are the tips, mufflers, and Y ................

That looks great, doing the math I hope I can get it to work, if nothing else I'm looking at high dollar tips. I thing the look will be worth it.

basscatt
03-13-14, 09:21 PM
After you clay bar then swirl polish with an orbital, buff the final carnauba wax coat in a front-to-rear pattern. Decreases wind resistance. Much the same principle as why vertical or swirl pinstriping offers more airflow resistance than straight front to rear lines.
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:histeric::histeric::histeric::histeric::histeric: :histeric::histeric: