: Autocar: Roadtest Cadillac CTS Saloon V 5.7 V8 4dr



91 s-10baja
07-20-05, 09:11 PM
Watch out BMW, Caddy's back
http://www.autocar.co.uk/FirstDrive_Summary.asp?RT=216222

91 Chevrolet S-10 Baja
04 Cadillac CTS


My 1991 Chevrolet S-10 BAJA (http://mysite.verizon.net/res0ftj3/id6.html)
My 2004 Cadillac CTS (http://mysite.verizon.net/res0ftj3/id5.html)

Geno
07-20-05, 09:26 PM
....more Euro hogwash...:mad: If those european were able to chew bubble gum and walk at the same time, there wouldn't be an issue with the steering wheel not being on the "right" side.

:annoyed: Sorry for the digression, I'm just a cowboy with a lot of horses and proud of it.:lildevil:

Barak
07-20-05, 11:10 PM
I wouldn't call 6500rpm limited rev range, nor would I be worried if I pulled up next to an S4. They claim it "lacks the final dynamic polish of an M-car" but the V will beat them in every performance comparison, even on their own racetrack. "Crude chicken wire mesh," should be referring to a British cars wiring harness, not the V's grill. The "very cheap plastic" interior that they describe probably costs more than a 3-series interior.

JEM
07-21-05, 12:53 AM
I wouldn't call 6500rpm limited rev range, nor would I be worried if I pulled up next to an S4. They claim it "lacks the final dynamic polish of an M-car" but the V will beat them in every performance comparison, even on their own racetrack. "Crude chicken wire mesh," should be referring to a British cars wiring harness, not the V's grill. The "very cheap plastic" interior that they describe probably costs more than a 3-series interior.

Once again, as with the Top Gear piece, this is a fairly honest and accurate review relative to their market and its pricing there.

Dynamic polish has nothing to do with numbers, it has everything to do with feel. Frankly, I find the dynamics of the CTS-V a little crisper than an E39 M5 (and I'm an M5 owner, not a CTS-V owner) and the traction control options are certainly better.

As for some of the other points you mention, yeah, I'd agree their quibbles don't make sense. The LS6's usable rev range is at least as great as that of an M3, given that the useful torque comes in much earlier. The V-car's grille is hardly crude, and the quality of that one piece would stand comparison with an old Bentley.

But only someone missing most of the human senses would think that the CTS-V's interior costs more than that of a 3-series. I used to say that Saab spent more on one seat than Ford spent on an entire Taurus SHO interior, and while the V-car's interior is better than the old SHO it's still some way down from BMW/Audi/Saab spec.

I've made this point before: in the US the CTS-V is something of a bargain and the operating costs are fairly modest. In the UK, where you're getting fleeced $6.50 or so a gallon for gasoline plus all the other costs that the car-hating crypto-communists in Blair's "New Labour" government can dream up, trying to beg off poorer material quality with a lower purchase price doesn't help much, and the lack of an RHD version is just another irritant.

Rikmyster
07-21-05, 01:08 AM
If those bloody english were so perfect they would fix their teeth and ears.

JEM
07-21-05, 02:15 AM
If those bloody english were so perfect they would fix their teeth and ears.

:confused:

36CADDY
07-21-05, 02:52 AM
If those bloody english were so perfect they would fix their teeth and ears.:p
:p :p

36CADDY
07-21-05, 02:55 AM
He said "fragments of M badges"...:thumbsup:

Dave's V
07-21-05, 04:45 AM
I bet they would like it a lot more if it was priced at $52k instead of over $90k in the UK. If I was British I would be more pissed that I would have to pay $38k more for the car and that it is cheaper to get a Jag in the states then their own country.

I never heard anyone complain about the steering being too light, then he complains about using his arms too much.

That was funny about the S4. They must of not watched top gear in which the Caddy had no problems pulling away from the S4 at start. We don't even have to mention a Jag in a reasonable price range.

Barak
07-21-05, 05:30 AM
But only someone missing most of the human senses would think that the CTS-V's interior costs more than that of a 3-series.

Thanks for the insult, but personally I don't see whats so great about a 3-series interior; it's very generic to my senses and I don't think the material quality in the CTS is below par. In an article I recently read in Automotive News, someone from GM commented on the trememdous cost of the CTS's interior, but how many critics have passed it off as being cheap.

I imagine the British judge interiors by their weight in wood, which would explain the author's comment.

RocketV
07-21-05, 09:24 AM
Motor Trend said it best when they mentioned that the CTS has expensive, soft-touch materials cleverly disguised to look like cheap plastic in its interior. Granted, it's not opulent, but it is not cheesy, either. Just because a car is not suited to Europe's roads does not make it inferior. It's American-Big, Bold, Loud and able to back up its image with actions.

91 s-10baja
07-21-05, 09:32 AM
Motor Trend said it best when they mentioned that the CTS has expensive, soft-touch materials cleverly disguised to look like cheap plastic in its interior. Granted, it's not opulent, but it is not cheesy, either. Just because a car is not suited to Europe's roads does not make it inferior. It's American-Big, Bold, Loud and able to back up its image with actions.

Precisely!

91 Chevrolet S-10 Baja
04 Cadillac CTS


My 1991 Chevrolet S-10 BAJA (http://mysite.verizon.net/res0ftj3/id6.html)
My 2004 Cadillac CTS (http://mysite.verizon.net/res0ftj3/id5.html)

6104696
07-21-05, 10:06 AM
The CTS-V interior IS more expensive! Don't forget all of the health-insurance and pension costs that go into the costs of making that interior.

The Europeans don't have to worry about that........that's what their 55% income tax rates take care of.

JEM
07-21-05, 11:05 AM
The CTS-V interior IS more expensive! Don't forget all of the health-insurance and pension costs that go into the costs of making that interior.

The Europeans don't have to worry about that........that's what their 55% income tax rates take care of.

Let's see, last time I looked, anyone in the US who earns enough salary or self-employment income to pay income tax, and little enough that you're paying FICA on most or all of it (and don't forget to include the employer share, it's coming out of your earnings even though you never see it) and lives in a state that has an income tax (and God forbid you have to pay local income tax) is paying close to 55% anyway...

As for pension costs in the CTS-V interior - pull any of the seats out and flip it over and I'd bet money there's going to be a 'hecho en Mexico' on there.

There's no money in those front seats, they're comfortable enough but they're very simple with minimal adjustments. I'd guess the unit cost per seat is no more than half that of a BMW sport seat.

The dash and console have plenty of money in the electronics but no money in the materials unless GM got robbed for that pebble-surface urethane on top. There's plenty of hard-surface plastic on the console and lower dash - comparable to the Lincoln LS and '00-02 Jag S-Type. Jag got bitched out left, right, and center for the cheap interior, and the redone '03-up S-Type interior is beautiful.

Wheel tilts but doesn't telescope.

The headliner is loose around the moonroof opening (I knew the Lincoln LS did this, I was amazed to find that Jag does too on the S-Type, you certainly don't see it on the Germans.

GM gets brownie points for the door panels, which are pretty good.

The V-car has a lot of good points. The interior, though, is only just good enough. An acceptable tradeoff given what the car sells for relative to its competition in the US.

If you're going to compare apples-to-apples, the Acura TL is probably the best US-made interior out there. The STS and SRX are comparable. They're all better in design (though not in material quality) than the current 5-series BMW.

6104696
07-21-05, 11:28 AM
Let's see, last time I looked, between income tax and employer and employee FICA and state income tax I was paying a fair bit more than that...

As for pension costs in the CTS-V interior - ull any of the seats out and flip it over and I'd bet money there's going to be a 'hecho en Mexico' on there.

There's no money in those front seats, they're comfortable enough but they're very simple with minimal adjustments. I'd guess the unit cost per seat is no more than half that of a BMW sport seat.

The dash and console have plenty of money in the electronics but no money in the materials unless GM got robbed for that pebble-surface urethane on top. There's plenty of hard-surface plastic on the console and lower dash - comparable to the Lincoln LS and '00-02 Jag S-Type. Jag got bitched out left, right, and center for the cheap interior, and the redone '03-up S-Type interior is beautiful.

Wheel tilts but doesn't telescope.

The headliner is loose around the moonroof opening (I knew the Lincoln LS did this, I was amazed to find that Jag does too on the S-Type, you certainly don't see it on the Germans.

GM gets brownie points for the door panels, which are pretty good.

The V-car has a lot of good points. The interior, though, is only just good enough. An acceptable tradeoff given what the car sells for relative to its competition in the US.

If you're going to compare apples-to-apples, the Acura TL is probably the best US-made interior out there. The STS and SRX are comparable. They're all better in design (though not in material quality) than the current 5-series BMW.

I was being tongue-in-cheek, and you might want to look into a new accountant.:sneaky:

JEM
07-21-05, 11:30 AM
I was being tongue-in-cheek, and you might want to look into a new accountant.:sneaky:

Oops...your quote now has the pre-edit version...

Seattle CTS-V
07-21-05, 12:32 PM
My single biggest complaint about the interior of my V is the cheap little button below the navi that let you skip to the next CD...can't remember if it says SCAN or SKIP or something similar. Anyway, it just feels taped on. None of us bought the V for the interior quality...and if you did then you got screwed big time!

Koooop
07-21-05, 01:57 PM
You can get a new V for about $46,500 quite easily.

IT IS CHEAP!

And it has a ton of great features for the price. Next time I want to kill an old growth forest and glue it on my dashboard I'll get a Jag.

GNSCOTT
07-21-05, 05:15 PM
Why is the car so much more expensive over in England , even with the steering wheel on the left?? Do they tax us that badly? Is a Jaquar like $30k off accross the pond?

RobzBLKV
07-21-05, 05:29 PM
Once again, as with the Top Gear piece, this is a fairly honest and accurate review relative to their market and its pricing there.

But only someone missing most of the human senses would think that the CTS-V's interior costs more than that of a 3-series.

1) I think the Top Gear piece was ridiculous. There are several real issues with the car, which they ignored. Instead, they said it "felt cheap" and would prefer the Audi even though the V ate it's lunch on the track. Well, at $90k, I might agree with them.

2) You have to be kidding me! As an owner of both, the only thing I can really say about the 3 series interior is that Cadillac copied the parts that made sense - like the center console tilting slightly towards the driver. The 3 series interior IS cheap for a car of its stature. The Cadillac interior manages to appear cheap in some places and doesn't have enough contrast. I am talking about the e46. I would say the same thing about the new 5 series. I haven't been in an e90 yet. The e46 was made of thin leather and mostly bad plastic. 3 series owners complain about the leather quality constantly. The V seats have decent leather with an alcantara insert and a shoulder belt that moves with the seat. All of it is fabulous. The too wide seat and lack of side bolstering bugs me, but at least the alcantara kind of holds you in place.

Interestingly enough, I agree with both statements about the steering being too light and that you have to move your arms around too much. It's two different problems. The steering system is over boosted, making it too light in grand USA fashion. The wheel has too much travel from lock to lock meaning that you have to turn it too much for the input you get out of it. Couple the travel problem with the over boosting problem and you feel like your arms are flying everywhere. Not saying either I or the magazine are right, just that it's my impression. Compared to the e36 steering, for example, they still have some work to do. But so does every other wanna be high performance car.

I think the cost has a lot to do with these reviews, frankly. That's a lot of UK bank for a $50k car.

MikeF
07-21-05, 07:27 PM
Why is the car so much more expensive over in England , even with the steering wheel on the left?? Do they tax us that badly? Is a Jaquar like $30k off accross the pond?

Taxes. The Euros tax waay more than individual income. They suck the money out of their citizens and re-allocate it to recent immigrants who get off the boat and sign up for the dole same day. Gas costs double there what it does here.

Also: if they DIDN'T tax the crap out of American cars, they would compete with and ruin the local industry. We can build them cheaper. Our system of insecure employment and weak government may frighten the old world with it's preference for cradle to grave safety, but it's cheap.

And the grill is ugly? Hello? Every person who has seem my car has commented on the lovely grill. Whatever those guys were smoking it sure didn't come from Maui.

Koooop
07-21-05, 08:17 PM
Exchange rates...

6104696
07-21-05, 09:42 PM
exchange rates these days are certainly part of the big difference, but even European cars are more expensive in the UK than elsewhere in Europe. Brits are trying to figure out how to buy cars in the mainland and then bring them over to the UK; they save lots of coin that way and that has little to do with exchange rates since the pound is doing quite well against the euro. It's the dollar that is sucking wind in recent years.

Vrocks
07-21-05, 11:14 PM
It's funny how they call the Cadillac BIG, because it's nearly identical to the 5 series in size and weight. Also, 6,500rpm is a lot of revs, they're just used to reving out their tiny torqueless lumps of aluminum.

Some of their comments are true about the shifter and the interior, both need a major improvement. Then again, the CTS and the CTS-V were Cadillac's first cars in a long time that can honestly compete with the premium European sport sedans. They spent more time and money getting the chasis and drivetrain correct (especially on the CTS) over interior components and design, something the next version will address. Besides, the CTS and CTS-V aren't really 'new' models any more, with each having been on the market for about 5 and 3 model years respectively. The new CTS will debut about a year after the new M5 finally arrives and from the looks of things the next CTS-V will probably hit the road in unison with the next gen M3.

Dave's V
07-21-05, 11:34 PM
I don't think the V is big. It seems about the same size as my Audi A4 did except the Vs rear seat actually has leg room.

Personally, I think the big V engine scares the crap out of those British. They wish they can pay $47,000 for a car that can do 0-60 in under 5 seconds.

Car prices are high for Europeans but so is everything else. The British actually pay around $150 tax a year just to watch 1 TV. Black and white is cheaper of course.

They don't want our cars to compete in Europe with no tariffs. If our government had any balls they would charge import companies the same amount their country's government charges our companies.

A base car over there with a puny 1 liter engine costs around $17k. A few thousand more, an American can at least buy a Cobalt SS or SRT4.

On the side note, "free" health care isn't much better for the Europeans. They usually have to wait in line for procedures. Our health care is inefficient money wise but thousands of foreigners pay big $$$ to see our doctors and we have some of the best speciality clinics in the world.

Barak
07-22-05, 12:31 AM
I love the CTS interior but I do have my gripes. Probably the biggest one is that there is no glovebox light. Second would be the non telescopic, detent-ridden tilt steering wheel. Other than that I love the seats and love the look. In terms of seat adjustment, I don't see why I would need any more adjustment or extra weight in seat motors for that matter.

Jem, I'm surprised you mentioned the Acura TL, since I've heard it to be full of squeaks and rattles and is a major reason for Acura's lower than expected J.D. Power numbers. It seems today that most of the industry agrees that Audi is the current leader when it comes to interiors.

If the dollar is weak and the pound strong, then the exchange rate would favor the British, so I don't think that has anything to do with it. I imagine the V is 90K in Britain because of the ridiculous tariffs. If our cars were sold for the same price as their cars, the British automotive industry would probably cease to exist. The high tax rates in Europe compound the issue, since they have less money to spend on things like real cars, since they feel the need to support every lazy lowlife that steps into their country. Not to mention that most of Europe has unemployment rates around 15%, so there is less of a market to begin with.

The cost to build cars is probably higher here than it is in Britain, because our gov't doesn't subsidize things like health care costs for the workers. The Big 3 are always complaining that the reason why they can't post a profit is because our gov't doesn't have socialized health care like most of western society and the legacy costs are killing them. The UAW members have excellent pay ($60/hour including benefits), and they enjoy a very high level of job security no matter how useless and incompetent the workers may be. So I would imagine the cost to build cars here is probably the highest in the world. Don't get me wrong though, I'm not a fan of the UAW, universal healthcare or the Big 3's excuses for their current situation.