: For shame, GM, for shame!



90Brougham350
07-20-05, 12:42 AM
My partner at work is a mother of 3, who on occasion, brings one or two of her children to work to see everyone, because she works 5 hour days and likes to stop in in the afternoons sometimes. Well, today she brought her 2 sons in, ages 9 and 7 respectively. As they walked in, my boss walked over and said hello. Shirley, my partner, then told her sons to tell the boss what they saw on the drive over. At once, they both shouted, " New Mustang! New Mustang!" My boss asked them, "I bet you'd like to have one huh?" to which the boys both excitedly replied in the affirmative.

Now being the GM loyalist I am, I had to ask the boys what they thought about Camaros. After I did, the older boy (9) replied, "Camaros are stupid!" while his little brother (7) asked what a "Camara" was. I ignored the younger son and asked the older why he thought Camaros were stupid. He replied his dad told him they were old and slow. Keep in mind this was a rather silly conversation with several of my fellow workers around listening, and I was trying to be very polite.

So now I decided to drop the trump card and bring up the Corvette. This is where I realized that children really have no concept of brand loyalty and immediately lost interest in the Mustang, and then proceeded to tell the whole group of us how cool Corvettes were and how somebody's uncle had one and he dropped Jimmy off at school one day and wasn't it cool and it was white and so on.....

Point being, GM has no pony car to rival the Mustang, and the kids knew that Mustangs are cool. It took the flagship car to beat a Mustang. Granted, the boys wouldn't shut up about Corvettes after that, but I still had to talk about the Corvette or the Mustang would have been the topic of conversation, not instead GM's rival pony car which is non-existent.

Brian

Ralph
07-20-05, 12:46 AM
They NEVER should have killed the Camaro. In typical fashion, GM FORGOT about any long-term investment they had made with the F-body, and (like with Olds) only thought about the quick short-term recovery, thinking it would solve the problem which didn't happen of course and ended up costed more! :annoyed:

You DON'T make profit or Customer Loyality by killing off a legend, much less an entire division! Especially now that Ford is making a killing in this niche!

The Camaro was a great car but it became too expensive when compared to a loaded Mustang GT. They certainly could have kept it but should made it a little cheaper, etc. After all, isn't this "old-world" technology?? RWD, etc.

Playdrv4me
07-20-05, 01:09 AM
As far as Im concerned the Camaro was dead to me after the 70's, it just kept getting more and more watered down and started to really lack soul. The Trans-Am/Firebird kept going strong all the way to the end and offered some really nice appearance and performance packages that made it really stand out from the crowd. Id like to see a resurgence of that car, but the Camaro is as good as dead in my book. Im sure there are other ways that GM could muster up a competitor for the Mustang without having to resurrect that name.

Ralph
07-20-05, 01:17 AM
As far as Im concerned the Camaro was dead to me after the 70's, it just kept getting more and more watered down and started to really lack soul. The Trans-Am/Firebird kept going strong all the way to the end and offered some really nice appearance and performance packages that made it really stand out from the crowd. Id like to see a resurgence of that car, but the Camaro is as good as dead in my book. Im sure there are other ways that GM could muster up a competitor for the Mustang without having to resurrect that name.

The mid to late '70's is when you could outrun one on foot to 50 ft. :histeric: That's when they lacked soul and real muscle, but after that, especially during the mid to late '80's they got stronger and stronger, esp. for the horsepower war of the 1980's.

Kev
07-20-05, 01:53 AM
Ralph is right, after '71 the Camaro spiraled down in my opinion. They didn't improve I don't think until Ford beefed up the Stang in the mid 80's.
I'm sorry to see the Camaro extinct too. GM cut off a large customer base when they ditched the poor old girl. :helpless:

ben72227
07-20-05, 02:28 AM
There were some good Camaros in the 80's, particularly the '82 Car of the Year Model and the IROC-Z model. BUT, I too agree that the Camaro of the 90s and early 00's was just LAME. It was one of the poster-child cars of why GM sucked - it lacked style, soul, and a quality interior:coolgleam. It belongs dead...

Now, as for competition to the Mustang, perhaps GM is considering resurecting a name that people could associate with a muscle car. Maybe the Malibu will have a coupe version known as the Chevelle Malibu SS:lildevil:

addison_ii
07-20-05, 02:30 AM
I think they should kept the firebird and the camaro. I mean i'm 24 and when i see knight rider my desire to have a firebird or camaro comes right back. they could have made them a little cheaper. i mean how are you going to get rid off K.I.T.T.? I also think of patrick swayze's grey z28 in the movie next of kin. GM really messed up when they did that.

majax
07-20-05, 04:34 AM
Speaking of coupes they also need to make the 350z more affordable. As I have heard it use to be a coupe the younger buyer could afford.

To me the Camaro is white trash. Last I saw one it was dead outside the hardware store and there was a guy with a mullet smoking a cigarette trying to start it.

ben72227
07-20-05, 04:42 AM
To me the Camaro is white trash.

My thoughts exactly. The F-body is a white trash platform. Whenever you think white trash, you think mullet, cut-off t-shirt, torn blue jeans, and a junky trans-am:lildevil:

Jesda
07-20-05, 04:44 AM
Small children cant admire a car that no longer exists!

Playdrv4me
07-20-05, 04:45 AM
Speaking of coupes they also need to make the 350z more affordable. As I have heard it use to be a coupe the younger buyer could afford.

To me the Camaro is white trash. Last I saw one it was dead outside the hardware store and there was a guy with a mullet smoking a cigarette trying to start it.

LOL, I didnt want to bring up the Mullet reference but yes, thats sort of how I see the Camaro. The Firebird too to an EXTENT, but not as much as the Camaro.

Quite possibly the only Camaro I EVER liked, was the 1991 white convertible with the aluminum wheels, those were well done. I think it was an RS or something but that wouldnt make sense because the RS was the runt powerwise if I recall correctly, dont know, dont particularly care.

As far as KITT, he is in a league all his own. The Firebird looked lightyears more modern than the Camaro back in the KITT days. If you guys ever watch Dream Car Garage last week they had a FULL SCALE reproduction KITT car down to the WHEEL. It had the lights on the front, all the computer equipment inside and even the flight style wheel (which was not easy to turn fast by the way). It even talked and had the original KITT voice. The Firebird and Trans-Am definitely had a much better overall appearance, even in the 70's.

As far as the 350Z, thats a toss-up really. Yes its based off the original Datsun 280Z which was the peoples sporty coupe, but when the 300 really came into its own in the mid-to late eighties and early 90's the dollar to yen ratio and technology in the car had taken it to such price extremes it had long since lost the appeal of being the cheap sports car. To an extent, the new one, with a starting price around 25-26k returned to at least a digestable price as opposed to the same money back in the 90's when it was alot more.

Randy_W
07-20-05, 08:46 AM
My thoughts exactly. The F-body is a white trash platform. Whenever you think white trash, you think mullet, cut-off t-shirt, torn blue jeans, and a junky trans-am:lildevil:


You guys are right! However you left out the fact that just as many of these guys drive older Mustangs as well. It has zero to do with them being Camaro's or Firebirds or Mustangs for that matter. It is totally due to these cars being affordable performance to that market segment. I'm the treasurer of Wheels That Heal Car Club, one of the largest charitable clubs on the east coast, and one of last years winners of the Eagle One Products Gold Medal Award for auto related charitable orginizations. I see the mullett guys the preppy guys, the old geezers, the cool guys, they all have one thing in common. They're all car guys, that's good enough for me.

You might be interested to know that those white trash guys have a name for young guys driving several year old Caddy's, Bimmers and MB's as well!:lildevil:

Sandy
07-20-05, 10:58 AM
Absolutely 100% on the money comment
""Small children cant admire a car that no longer exists!""

Thank You, Jesda !! :)

Now, you think a 2001 Camaro Z-28 SLP Edition Convert is White Trashiee?
I don't. A Pace Car Convertibble of 2002 ?

It's only 1 year since gone, yet most folks cannot mentally recal what the last Oldsmobiles looked like, so a 7 year old has no memory of a 2002 Camaro, when he was 4 years old.

Kev
07-20-05, 11:25 AM
Absolutely 100% on the money comment
""Small children cant admire a car that no longer exists!""

Thank You, Jesda !! :)

Now, you think a 2001 Camaro Z-28 SLP Edition Convert is White Trashiee?
I don't. A Pace Car Convertibble of 2002 ?

It's only 1 year since gone, yet most folks cannot mentally recal what the last Oldsmobiles looked like, so a 7 year old has no memory of a 2002 Camaro, when he was 4 years old.Along those lines, how many of the posters here actually remember the first Camaros from 67? Or the 68, 69, 70 1/2?
The 67 RS/SS may have been a "White trash" car but it sure did go fast!
The 69 Z28 was no slug either.
I always enjoyed my 'plain jane' 70 1/2.

I think it was a mistake for GM to axe the Camaro though they have to do something to survive. I just heard on the news coming in to work that they reported a $300,000,000.00 loss for the 2nd quarter. Ouch.

Randy_W
07-20-05, 01:16 PM
I remember when the first Camaro's and Firebirds were built, I even remeber the first Mustangs. My Dad worked at the Ford Plant In Norfolk, VA.

Let me say this about white trash cars. If you truely want to see these people in thier element, visit a Hyundai, Kia, or other cheap import dealer on a Saturday morning. You will find this group riding in a lot more used Nissan Sentra's than Firebirds.:yup:

wht2000
07-20-05, 01:23 PM
Along those lines, how many of the posters here actually remember the first Camaros from 67? Or the 68, 69, 70 1/2?
The 67 RS/SS may have been a "White trash" car but it sure did go fast!
The 69 Z28 was no slug either.
I always enjoyed my 'plain jane' 70 1/2.

I sure as hell do...I had a '69 SS 396 Camaro, dark blue metallic, black interior, rallye wheels...the whole enchilada!!! Talk about not being a slug?? I think the only car that I owned that was faster was the '69 Judge...but not by much!

Kev
07-20-05, 01:36 PM
I sure as hell do...I had a '69 SS 396 Camaro, dark blue metallic, black interior, rallye wheels...the whole enchilada!!! Talk about not being a slug?? I think the only car that I owned that was faster was the '69 Judge...but not by much!My neighbor had a 67 SS 396 too. It was black, had the Muncie m21 4 speed with posi. He used to light 'em up just about every time he left the driveway! It was quite a thrill for me, it was around 1970, I was 10. He sold tha Camaro and bought a 68 L88, red with the 4 speed. That soon replaced the Camaro as my all time favorite car. It still holds a special place for me.

My first girlfriend had a 67 RS/SS 396 w/TH400. I helped her get it running again and we worked on restoring it. We stripped it down to bare metal and she had it panted black. The body was nearly flawless and that car looked beautiful!

Jesda
07-21-05, 02:31 AM
Well, GM didnt choose to kill the Camaro as much as it was an agreement with a Canadian province that didn't go the way they needed to justify production.

Ralph
07-21-05, 02:42 AM
Well, GM didnt choose to kill the Camaro as much as it was an agreement with a Canadian province that didn't go the way they needed to justify production.

I don't buy that. I've seen the links and they don't consider the obvious.

It simply became too expensive compared to the Mustang, and just because there are many cars built here you cannot blame economic factors on location of production. The last Studebakers were made here also, did you know that??? And because they were built in Canada, it kept them alive much longer.....

We've been over this before....


Remember this.....

"Then why don't you build your own cars then?? Be happy GM didn't move Corvette production to Ontario like they wanted to a few years ago! Basically you are saying you had to look to Canadian production to save the F-body??!!

And that is NOT the only reason they axed the F-body. It was axed because of a depleting market for it and again they built too many and had to cut their losses because they couldn't sell them.

But it doesn't really matter does it, because Americans buy more Toyotas and foreign cars than American-origin cars. So in effect, THIS is why it's more important to support you local economy and buy the Trans Am over the Supra.

It's ok, Canada is used to finger pointing northward for things like power outages, etc.

If there was demand for them, they most certainly would build them!" PERIOD!

C'mon Jesda, you know better, and I respect you. If there was a demand for them, they would have built that new factory for the F-body, geography has nothing to do with it. When you consider how many Billions GM saves in health care costs by setting up and building in Canuckville, it pales in comparison to one factory! It cost GM 6 BILLION for HC costs last year! Again, it WAS a shame they killed them off...but at the time they just didn't think it was worth the investment, at that time. I bet now they're sorry!

Don't worry, I'm sure Dagmar is upset about it too!! :shhh:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/autos/

majax
07-21-05, 03:40 AM
Odd how a kid will mimic their parents opinions and stick by it.

Playdrv4me
07-21-05, 04:16 AM
I dont know all the details but I imagine Ralph is right somewhere in there... the F-Body was just pretty craptacular overall. Ford SOMEHOW managed to keep the ol' grey-haired Mustang fresh with JUST enough to keep prices decent and keep enthusiasts satisfied with everything from Shelby Cobra's to Roush editions and a healthy aftermarket. They even had those wild and rare color changing paint Cobras in 96. Considering that platform was like 20 years old, it held up really well. The Camaro just didnt cut it.

Ralph
07-21-05, 04:21 AM
I dont know all the details but I imagine Ralph is right somewhere in there... the F-Body was just pretty craptacular overall. Ford SOMEHOW managed to keep the ol' grey-haired Mustang fresh with JUST enough to keep prices decent and keep enthusiasts satisfied with everything from Shelby Cobra's to Roush editions and a healthy aftermarket. They even had those wild and rare color changing paint Cobras in 96. Considering that platform was like 20 years old, it held up really well. The Camaro just didnt cut it.

I remember reading once that a fully loaded GT Mustang cost LESS than a base Z28, a few years ago. I think I can dig that up if I have to......

Playdrv4me
07-21-05, 04:24 AM
Well I mean I know you love the new Mustang, and the GT Coupe even NOW with the new bodystyle and NO competition to worry about from GM, is STILL only like what... US$24,995? The Convertible is right at 30, for what you get its quite a bargain.

Ralph
07-21-05, 04:30 AM
Well I mean I know you love the new Mustang, and the GT Coupe even NOW with the new bodystyle and NO competition to worry about from GM, is STILL only like what... US$24,995? The Convertible is right at 30, for what you get its quite a bargain.

The GT hardtop with no extra options here is $32,000. A new Impala LS is $35,000. A loaded Honda Accord is $35,ooo. A new Cadillac base Deville is $55,000, and a Escalade is around $80,000, just for comparisons sake.

I had tickets on one of the LAST 2002 Camaro SS hardtops (with t-tops) and I REALLY wanted to win that car!!!! Red with white stripes. They did feel a lot more sporty behind the wheel, and I think it has to do with sitting so low, etc.

I would have been happy with either......but like you said, Mustang has no real competition for this niche.

Jesda
07-21-05, 08:18 PM
I don't buy that. I've seen the links and they don't consider the obvious.

Aww come on man, not again.

The main reason for the f-body continuing throughout the 90s was a favorable agreement made in Canada. Without that agreement, there's no business case for the car.

Ralph
07-21-05, 09:26 PM
Aww come on man, not again

That's exactly what I said! Why are you repeating....

and there was no "falling out" with the Canadians either! (contrary to what you think or believe) It's simple, if people would have bought them, they would still have been made and they would have re-invested in a new factory, etc.

Again, stop looking at us to save your musclecars then! If you would buy them, we would gladly build them, while saving GM Billions in the process!

Like I said, it is NOT as issue about laying blame, or region. If a product is in demand, it WILL sell!

It must be fun laying blame elsewhere... :shhh:

Therefore, I might say not "for shame GM, for shame" I might say "for shame people, for shame, for not buying your own product and keeping it in America!" And keeping it alive, then convieniently pointing the finger elsewhere when it's convienient.

Jesda
07-21-05, 10:40 PM
There was indeed a fallout. The deal was unsweetened, and GM said 'Eh, eff this. There's no point anymore.'

You cant blame folks for not buying Camaros. They got kind of fat.

Ralph
07-21-05, 10:42 PM
There was indeed a fallout.

I'll ask you what I asked on that other thread regarding this topic, show me the links where there was a "Fallout."

If you are not sure about something, please don't just assume something as fact.

Remember, you brought this up again, and we've been over this. So learn NOT to bring it up again then. You're right, there is NO POINT!

Ralph
07-21-05, 10:48 PM
You cant blame folks for not buying Camaros. They got kind of fat.

If a product doesn't sell, will it not be discontinued??? Like I've said before, just wait until the first Chinese cars start to arrive, then we'll see problems!

Even a so called "Global Economy" couldn't have saved the Camaro, especially if no one would buy them.

So if a car gets a little "fat" it won't sell??? Aren't a lot of cars today bigger than ever and selling quite well? I agree it got heavy, etc. but so is a Bently (5,000 pounds) Continental GT and it does less than a 6 second 0-60 time.

Randy_W
07-21-05, 10:54 PM
Listen guys, the truth is the F-bodies were still profitable right to the end, read GM's own internal edict and you would see that. GM stopped advertising the car in the 1990's once they decided they wanted to dump the Canadian deal, (sorry Ralph but it's true). Once they stopped promoting the car sales took a nose dive, then they could justify dumping the platform. As for getting fat, the Firebird Formula Ram Air would outrun (all but the SC Cobra) and out handle the Mustang, even the Cobra with it's IRS. The '02 F-body cars with the engine updates, were within 15-18 h.p. of the supercharged Cobras on the chassis dyno. I didn't pull that out of my hat, I watched in the summer of '02 at Carlisle! The F-body died because GM wanted it to, period. I'm not blaming Canada, I'm blaming GM.

Playdrv4me
07-21-05, 10:58 PM
Listen guys, the truth is the F-bodies were still profitable right to the end, read GM's own internal edict and you would see that. GM stopped advertising the car in the 1990's once they decided they wanted to dump the Canadian deal, (sorry Ralph but it's true). Once they stopped promoting the car sales took a nose dive, then they could justify dumping the platform. As for getting fat, the Firebird Formula Ram Air would outrun (all but the SC Cobra) and out handle the Mustang, even the Cobra with it's IRS. The '02 F-body cars with the engine updates, were within 15-18 h.p. of the supercharged Cobras on the chassis dyno. I didn't pull that out of my hat, I watched in the summer of '02 at Carlisle! The F-body died because GM wanted it to, period. I'm not blaming Canada, I'm blaming GM.

Now see, thats what I like to see. Thats the best post Ive seen from you yet. Educated and informational, I didnt know they came so close to the Cobra.

Jesda
07-21-05, 10:59 PM
The incentives offered to GM to keep the plant open disappeared.
Sales of the Camaro were strong but slowly declining (pending a new generation being developed).

1+1=Closed!

Ralph
07-21-05, 11:04 PM
I'm not blaming Canada, I'm blaming GM.

That's more like it. Because it was not our fault what GM decided in Detroit! And I don't like finger pointing, etc. Like I said, we're getting used to it around here! The Studebaker example was very similar and they set up in Canada so they wouldn't be to blame when the plug was pulled.

What was interesting is that according to "Mustangs and Fast Fords" Aug 2002, the SS was rated at 325 hp and the Cobra 390 and they were within a second of each other in quarter mile times. The article goes on to say that the Mustang was actually underrated and more like 425 hp! But then you would think the SS wqas "up there" too!

I'd still like a link showing that "fallout!" and being our fault!

Case CLOSED!

Jesda
07-21-05, 11:10 PM
I wasn't -blaming- anyone! All I said was that Canada stopped bribing GM!

Randy_W
07-22-05, 08:36 AM
That's more like it. Because it was not our fault what GM decided in Detroit! And I don't like finger pointing, etc. Like I said, we're getting used to it around here! The Studebaker example was very similar and they set up in Canada so they wouldn't be to blame when the plug was pulled.

What was interesting is that according to "Mustangs and Fast Fords" Aug 2002, the SS was rated at 325 hp and the Cobra 390 and they were within a second of each other in quarter mile times. The article goes on to say that the Mustang was actually underrated and more like 425 hp! But then you would think the SS wqas "up there" too!

I'd still like a link showing that "fallout!" and being our fault!

Case CLOSED!

Actually the '02 SS and Ram Air cars were rated at 345 h.p.! The Mustang Cobra was rated at 390. In stock trim with good drivers there was only 1-3 tenths difference in the 1/4 mile when tested by non biased drivers. The '02's were real monsters! To say the least 7 lbs of boost(to put them on even footing), would have them killing the SC Cobra.

Randy_W
07-22-05, 08:39 AM
Now see, thats what I like to see. Thats the best post Ive seen from you yet. Educated and informational, I didnt know they came so close to the Cobra.

Thank you, I think!:D You mean my business management degree from San Jose State was showing through?;)

Ralph
07-22-05, 04:17 PM
Actually the '02 SS and Ram Air cars were rated at 345 h.p.!

Not according to my info Randy. Maybe you read something different?

Here is a scan from the 2002 Camaro brochure I saved and will never give away........325hp......it says the same from the above "Musle Mustang and Fast Fords" mag I quoted above......

Randy_W
07-22-05, 05:27 PM
You're right, I went and looked at my notes the Firehawk with a little better air intake was rated at 345 or 350 depending on when it was built. It was the same in every other way. Also the 325 hp Camaros had a torque rating of 340 while the Firebird with a little better ram air system was rated at 350. I've seen stock '02 Ram Air cars put could down as much as 320 h.p. to the wheels with no mods in the M6 cars. The late '02's used LS6 heads, intake and 6.0 liter cam. Compared to earlier versions, these late run cars were bad fast, regardless of rating. They would come within a few h.p. of the SC Cobra. The Cobra was heavier and often wouldn't run any quicker than these late build cars.

Ralph
07-22-05, 06:41 PM
You're right, I went and looked at my notes the Firehawk with a little better air intake was rated at 345 or 350 depending on when it was built. It was the same in every other way. Also the 325 hp Camaros had a torque rating of 340 while the Firebird with a little better ram air system was rated at 350. I've seen stock '02 Ram Air cars put could down as much as 320 h.p. to the wheels with no mods in the M6 cars. The late '02's used LS6 heads, intake and 6.0 liter cam. Compared to earlier versions, these late run cars were bad fast, regardless of rating. They would come within a few h.p. of the SC Cobra. The Cobra was heavier and often wouldn't run any quicker than these late build cars.

According to my mag, the shootout was very interesting between the Cobra and the SS. Something else interesting was when they removed the air silencer, and what the dyno said after that........here, I'll try to scan it. they also compared to an M3 and I'll try to scan that page as well........heck, I could scan the whole article if I can get it big enough....the M3 pretty much matched the Camaro SS. The Cobras airbox was VERY restrictive, essentially like trying to run a marathon and breathing through a straw.

Randy_W
07-22-05, 07:01 PM
I've seen several 'stock' Cobras on the dyno, I've yet to see one go past 340 - 345h.p. In fact, the only ones putting really big numbers down have been in Ford Mags or Ford publications.;)

Ralph
07-22-05, 07:08 PM
I should note that the quarter mile times were...

Cobra

12.79 @ 106.39 mph
top speed 155 mph, electronically limited

SS

13.25 @106.42 mph
top speed 158 mph, electronically limited.

At least the Camaro will go faster top speed. :D

Ralph
07-22-05, 07:11 PM
Question Randy....how exactly does an "air silencer" work, and do Cadillacs like mine have them?? To pick up over 10 HP by simply removing them seems incredible. I'm assuming it somehow slows down the air path??

Randy_W
07-22-05, 11:09 PM
First thing you should look at in that test is trap speed. That is a far better indicator of horsepower than et is. Et generally tells you how well the car is hooking up and may indicate better gearing.The trap speeds indicate these two are very close in real world horsepower With the Camaro being slightly lighter, it should be capable of et's at least as quick as the Mustang!



Air silencers generally restrict the flow in order to quiet it down.