: Cylinder damage question....extended idling



kaceyseldo
01-26-14, 09:16 AM
So there was a thread recently about gas consumption vs idle time. That got me to remembering something I heard from a mechanic in Syracuse. Can extended idling score cylinder walls and damage compression?

Submariner409
01-26-14, 09:57 AM
Not normally. IF a fuel injector is stuck open or a carburetor is seriously out of tune it can lead to raw gasoline "washing" the molecular film of lube oil off a cylinder wall - that's what leads to bore scoring and/or ring wear. Extended cold idling with a faulty thermostat can also cause this from fuel vapor condensing on the cylinder wall and doing the same damage.

That's one reason that it is unwise to idle the engine for extended periods to "warm it up". Get in the car, start it, adjust your seat belt and mirrors, check the DIC for icons/warnings, drive away normally. Our engines do NOT need an extended idle time from cold - simply driving normally for the first two or three miles from cold start warms the drivetrain far more quickly and efficiently than idling ever will.

kaceyseldo
01-26-14, 10:09 AM
Cool. Thanks sub.

BlueAngel#07
01-26-14, 10:23 AM
Not normally. IF a fuel injector is stuck open or a carburetor is seriously out of tune it can lead to raw gasoline "washing" the molecular film of lube oil off a cylinder wall - that's what leads to bore scoring anmd/or ring wear. Extended cold idling with a faulty thermostat can also cause this from fuel vapor condensing on the cylinder wall and causing the same damage. That's one reason that it is unwise to idle the engine for extended periods to "warm it up". Get in the car, start it, adjust your seat belt and mirrors, check the DIC for icons/warnings, drive away normally. Our engines do NOT need an extended idle time from cold - simply driving normally for the first two or three miles from cold start warms the drivetrain far more quickly and efficiently than idling ever will.

How does driving it under driving temp set with gaskets?

Was always under the impression that it would lead to leaks.

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How does driving it under driving temp set with gaskets? Was always under the impression that it would lead to leaks.

I meant operating temp.

MoistCabbage
01-26-14, 10:25 AM
The faster you get the engine up to temp, the better.

Gaskets sit there and seal gaps, hot or cold. They don't care if the car is moving or not.

BlueAngel#07
01-26-14, 10:27 AM
The faster you get the engine up to temp, the better. Gaskets sit there and seal gaps, hot or cold. They don't care if the car is moving or not. Thx for that. I am a victim of an old wise tale. Logic wins.

Ranger
01-26-14, 11:01 AM
I am a victim of an old wise tale.
So was the OP, but I think you meant "old wives tale".

kaceyseldo
01-26-14, 11:05 AM
I most definitely was. You know the old school "don't drive a cold car" and what-not. Good info to know. I had already read about the warm-up in tech tips.

BlueAngel#07
01-26-14, 11:28 AM
So was the OP, but I think you meant "old wives tale".

Probably :/

Ranger
01-26-14, 11:39 AM
I most definitely was. You know the old school "don't drive a cold car" and what-not. Good info to know. I had already read about the warm-up in tech tips.
A lot of these old school beliefs are truths or partial truths from back in the dark ages of automobile technology ('40's, '50's & '60's).

For example, too much idling WAS indeed bad for the carbureted engine. It would carbon up the combustion chambers and foul plugs, but with the advent of computer controlled fuel injection it is no longer relevant.

Likewise, if you moved from SFO to DEN you'd have to have your carburetor adjusted for the altitude difference. No longer so. Now the PCM handles that for you. The list goes on and on.

kaceyseldo
01-26-14, 11:45 AM
Good to know.

drewsdeville
01-26-14, 11:57 AM
For reference, it's generally accepted in the fleet world that 1hr of idle time = approximately 30 miles of driving when it comes to wear and tear on a modern gasoline engine.

kaceyseldo
01-26-14, 12:00 PM
This is all good information and I'll use it regularly. I just wonder where these numbers come from. Who tested these theories?

Submariner409
01-26-14, 12:08 PM
It's not theory, it's fact - as DD posted about fleet engine wear - companies have a TON of money invested in their vehicles, they spend a TON of money on repair and maintenance, and so keep accurate records of how their vehicles are driven. Car manufacturers themselves subject vehicles to horrible, abusive conditions before they ever reach the public as a production item. There's a LOT more R & D done than meets the eye, and the results are all archived. Once in a while some of it leaks out into the public eye - much of the Cadillac Technical Archive (very top black bar) was compiled by a Cadillac powertrain engineer in the Northstar Project (the OLM article is the product of the engineer who developed the wear algorithms.).

Using a cup of coffee, the computer internet search bar, and a few keystrokes you can verify or deny anything you see posted in any forum or blog.

You want fact, fantasy, hate, love, flaming, truth, wive's tales, and plain lies ???? Google "bobistheoilguy" and wade in.

drewsdeville
01-26-14, 12:08 PM
Manufacturers, confirmed by fleet operators. For example, Ford has come up with 25 miles for it's powerstroke diesel and 33 miles for gasoline.

BlueAngel#07
01-26-14, 12:14 PM
So is the timer on the remote start set with this in mind so that it isn't a factor,?
I am old school so this is news to me. Happy to learn it.

Submariner409
01-26-14, 12:17 PM
I'll keep my remote start opinions to myself ...........:rolleyes:

97EldoCoupe
01-26-14, 12:41 PM
BlueAngel you're from MN where weather promotes the need for short warm-ups. The cylinder walls in your 07 DTS are very hard, hence the reason N* engines don't exhibit much cylinder wear (taper, out of round, etc...) I don't believe any U.S. cars had the block heater option but if you have it, use it. Makes a HUGE difference on sub-zero temp days. I personally think it's better to let the engine warm up a bit before driving and remote start tends to promote this.....

BUT.......

Unless it's a factory installed option I don't believe any provisions exist regarding auto shut down in case of oil pressure drop, etc......... which is one reason I hate remote start. Nobody is there to monitor guages and warning lamps.

kaceyseldo
01-26-14, 12:55 PM
I'll keep my remote start opinions to myself ...........:rolleyes:

I am personally interested to hear them. All your "opinions" have been spot on.

Ranger
01-26-14, 03:14 PM
I don't believe any provisions exist regarding auto shut down in case of oil pressure drop
I'm pretty sure it will auto shut down in the event of an oil pressure loss. :)

97EldoCoupe
01-26-14, 03:45 PM
As long as it's factory installed and not that cheap aftermarket crap, yes

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My 2010 Sierra threw an evap code, that alone prevented the factory installed remote start from functioning. That's why I like factory stuff - the engineers integrate the technology, it's not just a simple "add on".

kaceyseldo
01-26-14, 03:55 PM
Well, the only two things I have ever put on after market is a stereo. (Aside from non mechanical parts. Ie: grills, wheels, etc.)

drewsdeville
01-26-14, 04:00 PM
As long as it's factory installed and not that cheap aftermarket crap, yes



I think Ranger's comment was meant to be humorous. No oil pressure will stop the engne... eventually.

BlueAngel#07
01-26-14, 04:02 PM
I'm pretty sure it will auto shut down in the event of an oil pressure loss. :) I have the factory remote start and it will only run for 5-10 minutes, and shuts off. 5 if it's warm outside 10 if it's really cold out
In my guesstimation.

kaceyseldo
01-26-14, 04:02 PM
I think Ranger's comment was meant to be humorous. No oil pressure will stop the engne... eventually.

Eventually is right. You ever heard an engine crap out due to a drop oil pressure?

BlueAngel#07
01-26-14, 04:06 PM
Thing is the factory remote start would not let you start it with low oil and the car has so many fail safes I'm pretty confident the OE remote system would shut it down, but now I want to know for sure.

kaceyseldo
01-26-14, 04:23 PM
http://www.viper.com/car/remotestart/product/4706v/viper-lcd-2-way-remote-start-system

So here is the "best selling" system on the market. Doesn't say anything about fail-safe oil pressure or engine monitoring or anything. But they are awful proud of the fact that you can start your car a mile away. AND it reads the interior car temp. Ever heard of a coat?????..... not surprised I wouldn't own one......

BlueAngel#07
01-26-14, 04:34 PM
http://www.viper.com/car/remotestart/product/4706v/viper-lcd-2-way-remote-start-system So here is the "best selling" system on the market. Doesn't say anything about fail-safe oil pressure or engine monitoring or anything. But they are awful proud of the fact that you can start your car a mile away. AND it reads the interior car temp. Ever heard of a coat?????..... not surprised I wouldn't own one......

I get what your saying, but most of the DTS models come with remote start standard , thus the systems ARE for the most part integrated at least at start.

What I'm wanting to find out now is if the monitors the system after start.

If not it would change the dynamics of starting your car while brushing your teeth.

kaceyseldo
01-26-14, 04:57 PM
I couldnt find anything about it. That's my point, if the best aftermarket system sold doesn't do it, then no one but the factory can. And in any case, how could a company like viper be expected, or even asked, to customize a system for every different make, model, and trim package out there? Just goes to show you that some things are best left un-screwed with.

BlueAngel#07
01-26-14, 05:04 PM
I couldnt find anything about it. That's my point, if the best aftermarket system sold doesn't do it, then no one but the factory can. And in any case, how could a company like viper be expected, or even asked, to customize a system for every different make, model, and trim package out there? Just goes to show you that some things are best left un-screwed with.

I agree with that, most remote starts are not compatible with GM cars from word of mouth and friends and shops that have tried, sends false signals to computer, ignition says off ... Motor running, works fine at first then complications. Maybe they have come up with something to compensate by now but I wouldn't touch it.

kaceyseldo
01-26-14, 05:08 PM
I look at it like this, I had to spend about $1k to put new speakers and amps in my etc with Bose. Now, that was with specialized components made specifically for that type of installation. And that's just the radio. I could only imagine what kind of "electrical demons" (as they are often referred to on this forum) would come from trying to bypass the IGNITION. A component that is known to have problems from the factory anyways. IMO..... not worth the 5 minutes it takes for my car to warm up on the way to work.

BlueAngel#07
01-26-14, 05:11 PM
True

MoistCabbage
01-26-14, 05:14 PM
Not sure what you've heard, but remote start is not rocket science. There are modules available to get around "chipped" keys, and integration modules available to work with the more complex and unique security/ignition systems of newer cars. All you need to do is simulate a simple ignition on signal and start signal until the tach signal reaches a certain RPM.

Before remote start, people ran outside, started the car, and went back inside for 10/20 minutes, leaving the car unattended and easy to steal. The fact that oil pressure and other parameters aren't monitored by aftermarket systems is barely an issue IMHO.

kaceyseldo
01-26-14, 05:27 PM
I'm sure your right, but that viper system cited earlier specifically said no tach attachment. (< not a direct quote) on a separate note..... did you know in Tennessee it is illegal to leave your car running and unattended? B/c of theft. There's a fun fact for ya. Lol. I am extremely uneducated about these systems,so I am only going on my gut, and some amount of research. And I would venture to agree that if your leaving your car running by its self, your not worried about oil pressure anyways.

MoistCabbage
01-26-14, 05:32 PM
The "tachless" systems monitor vehicle voltage during startup, basically looking for the voltage spike from the increased alternator speed once the engine starts. Many times you can choose weather you want to use a tach signal or not, some systems have no option.

The better systems also have a start delay feature for diesel engines that require a glow plug warm up time. Some will also allow you to set the number of retries (this can be useful for older, carbonated vehicles that may not start on the first try, or may stall on e or twice).

kaceyseldo
01-26-14, 05:53 PM
The "tachless" systems monitor vehicle voltage during startup, basically looking for the voltage spike from the increased alternator speed once the engine starts. Many times you can choose weather you want to use a tach signal or not, some systems have no option.

The better systems also have a start delay feature for diesel engines that require a glow plug warm up time. Some will also allow you to set the number of retries (this can be useful for older, carbonated vehicles that may not start on the first try, or may stall on e or twice).

Wow.... oh what modern technology has achieved.

rodnok01
01-26-14, 06:56 PM
The "tachless" systems monitor vehicle voltage during startup, basically looking for the voltage spike from the increased alternator speed once the engine starts. Many times you can choose weather you want to use a tach signal or not, some systems have no option.

The better systems also have a start delay feature for diesel engines that require a glow plug warm up time. Some will also allow you to set the number of retries (this can be useful for older, carbonated vehicles that may not start on the first try, or may stall on e or twice).

My Avital unit has start delay(programmable IIRC). It uses tachless tech but I ended up hooking Tach signal wire up or it would randomly shut off. It also seems to stop starting more accurately.

Personally I couldn't give a crap if it's bad for the car to run for a few minutes, it's a lot worse skipping an oil change, and my butt is warm now instead of 5 minutes later(the old back don't like the cold anymore).

While not ideal to have a vehicle sit idling for extended amount of time, tech sure has made it easier on newer vehicles.

kaceyseldo
01-26-14, 07:07 PM
And that's exactly what this whole convo boils down to. Putting the facts out and letting each person decide for him/herself. I am really surprised at some of the things I've learned.

MoistCabbage
01-26-14, 09:23 PM
My Avital unit has start delay(programmable IIRC). It uses tachless tech but I ended up hooking Tach signal wire up or it would randomly shut off. It also seems to stop starting more accurately.

Personally I couldn't give a crap if it's bad for the car to run for a few minutes, it's a lot worse skipping an oil change, and my butt is warm now instead of 5 minutes later(the old back don't like the cold anymore).

While not ideal to have a vehicle sit idling for extended amount of time, tech sure has made it easier on newer vehicles.

Yeah, I plan to put a remote starter in the Seville. I have no worries about a little extra idling or freak mechanical problems while I'm not in the car. I was going to do it during the holidays, but I needed rear control arms.

Ranger
01-26-14, 09:50 PM
I think Ranger's comment was meant to be humorous. No oil pressure will stop the engne... eventually.

:yup:

That said, a loss of oil pressure is the LAST thing I would worry about.

CadillacLuke24
01-27-14, 01:08 AM
Northstars will automatically shut off if there is no oil pressure detected. I was on the off ramp to the Wasta SD rest stop on I90 one night when the oil light came on and the DIC said LOW OIL PRESSURE. Engine shut off. I coasted to a stop (down from like 15 LOL), fired her back up sans issue, and continued on my way.

MoistCabbage
01-27-14, 01:28 AM
Northstars do not shut off automatically for any reason. A false low oil pressure message is fairly common. No engines are shutting off. You WILL however be told by the DIC to turn the engine off.

In your case, it sounds like the warning came on as the engine began to stall (low RPM - low oil pressure).

vincentm
01-27-14, 01:59 AM
I wish i still had my block heater. I should install another.

BlueAngel#07
01-27-14, 09:33 AM
Northstars do not shut off automatically for any reason. A false low oil pressure message is fairly common. No engines are shutting off. You WILL however be told by the DIC to turn the engine off. In your case, it sounds like the warning came on as the engine began to stall (low RPM - low oil pressure).

You know it doesn't matter to me either I'm not going to stop using my remote start, but thought it would be nice to know if it had that feature, if it burns up while warming up it will just be time for a new one. I like car shopping anyway lol

97EldoCoupe
01-27-14, 10:18 AM
Yup that's pretty much it, it's a chance you take if you run remote start. Not a big one, obviously. Only if a cooler hose began to leak all of a sudden...but chances of that are very slim.

But there is NOTHING wrong with idling an engine for a short time before you leave. The torque converter is spinning which means even if you're not driving, the trans is warming up (trans fluid pump spinning too). It's good practice to idle for a few minutes. Anyone who says otherwise lives far enough south and is fortunate enough to not need to idle their vehicles. To anyone North of human-life-sustaining-temperatures, Let that oil reach all the valvetrain parts and lube them well before hitting 2000 RPM. Try pouring ATF out of a jug at -31 derees F. It has the viscosity of engine oil. Engine oil at that temp, has the viscosity of gear oil (think 80w90). How many RPM's does your tach reach to normally reach highway speed? Casual driving? I wouldn't put gear oil in my Northstar and fire it up and drive. So just getting in, starting it up and driving away is fine - weather permitting.

Most of the USA will never see -31F. Thank God. Southern Ontario to my knowledge, never has either. North Dakota and Manitoba; different story.

BlueAngel, I-29 from Fargo to Canada was closed yesterday. I hope the weather in MN is better than what MB/ND had yesterday. Stay warm!

kaceyseldo
01-27-14, 11:30 AM
I saw -33 once in Syracuse. Wind chill that is. That lake front is hell.

Ranger
01-27-14, 12:00 PM
Northstars will automatically shut off if there is no oil pressure detected. I was on the off ramp to the Wasta SD rest stop on I90 one night when the oil light came on and the DIC said LOW OIL PRESSURE. Engine shut off. I coasted to a stop (down from like 15 LOL), fired her back up sans issue, and continued on my way.
You have it backwards Luke. The engine stalled for some reason which THEN caused the LOW OIL PRESSURE message. Test it for yourself. With the engine at idle, pull the PCV line out out the rear cam cover. That should stall the engine. Now go back and see what message you have on the DIC.

97EldoCoupe
01-27-14, 02:53 PM
You have it backwards Luke. The engine stalled for some reason which THEN caused the LOW OIL PRESSURE message. Test it for yourself. With the engine at idle, pull the PCV line out out the rear cam cover. That should stall the engine. Now go back and see what message you have on the DIC.

That won't ever happen Ranger.

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The engine will stall but that message will never come up after the engine stalls. The PCM knows if the engine is running or not.

Ranger
01-27-14, 04:16 PM
I can almost swear that is how it works. I'm sure I've seen this before. Engine stalls and low oil pressure message or red oil pressure idiot light comes on.

I just went out and tried to prove it, but pulling the PCV line on the '04 did not stall it like it did on the '99. I wasn't curious enough to keep trying.

BlueAngel#07
01-27-14, 11:00 PM
Yup that's pretty much it, it's a chance you take if you run remote start. Not a big one, obviously. Only if a cooler hose began to leak all of a sudden...but chances of that are very slim. But there is NOTHING wrong with idling an engine for a short time before you leave. The torque converter is spinning which means even if you're not driving, the trans is warming up (trans fluid pump spinning too). It's good practice to idle for a few minutes. Anyone who says otherwise lives far enough south and is fortunate enough to not need to idle their vehicles. To anyone North of human-life-sustaining-temperatures, Let that oil reach all the valvetrain parts and lube them well before hitting 2000 RPM. Try pouring ATF out of a jug at -31 derees F. It has the viscosity of engine oil. Engine oil at that temp, has the viscosity of gear oil (think 80w90). How many RPM's does your tach reach to normally reach highway speed? Casual driving? I wouldn't put gear oil in my Northstar and fire it up and drive. So just getting in, starting it up and driving away is fine - weather permitting. Most of the USA will never see -31F. Thank God. Southern Ontario to my knowledge, never has either. North Dakota and Manitoba; different story. BlueAngel, I-29 from Fargo to Canada was closed yesterday. I hope the weather in MN is better than what MB/ND had yesterday. Stay warm!

You are on point, if anyone has ever heard a dry start they would know at least a minimal warm up is needed, and indeed is more than likely why it came with the car from factory. I believe the remote start came standard on the DTS.

We ONLY had -11, a heat wave compared to where you are