: Toyota, An Unstoppable Force?!



Ralph
06-14-05, 02:08 PM
http://www.autopacific.com/sub_pr.php?action=view&sub=&section=12&type=58&group=99&id=631

"Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A. has been selling cars and trucks in the United States since 1957. It took awhile, but gradually Toyota vehicles became accepted by the American buying public and now, almost 50 years later, Toyota is a major force in the American automotive battleground selling cars and trucks through three brands; Toyota, Lexus and Scion. A Toyota under any name is in the consideration set of over one in three new vehicle buyers in the United States.

Buyers choose Toyota because of the legendary durability, quality and reliability of its products. Buyers of most vehicles expect them to last 100,000 to 150,000 miles before going to the scrap heap. Toyota buyers commonly expect 200,000 miles (especially with Toyota trucks). They are content to get 300,000 miles and then gloat when they get 350,000 miles. Even though most buyers will trade their vehicle in five or six years, Toyotas are perceived to be indestructible.

Everybody makes mistakes and Toyota is no exception. Its fumbles have not been because its cars and trucks were not good in their own right, they just fell short of meeting the requirements of American buyers. Remember the mid-engined Previa minivan? How about the Tercel and the MR2? The final generation Supra made a run at a part of the market historically defined by Chevrolet's Corvette that functionally brought about the demise of the Supra altogether. And in the company's current line, the youth-targeted (but boomer accepted) Echo is a clear "miss."

"The most recent feather in Toyota's cap is its hybrid powertrain strategy. Launching the Prius as a stand-alone hybrid single-handedly established an extremely desirable image for both hybrids and Toyota in the United States."

Playdrv4me
06-14-05, 02:27 PM
The Tercel was an absolute disaster. I remember people in latin america wouldnt own them because they were the "American Toyota" and thus perceived as trash. My dad had an 87 for a while and that thing was a pile of junk. One of VERY FEW blunders in Toyota's history (besides the bland styling)

Ralph
06-14-05, 02:37 PM
The Tercel was an absolute disaster.

I remember those when new. They were just too light for traction on icy/snowy conditions, etc.

On the other hand, in the early 1970's my Moms' friend had a Corolla and it NEVER broke down even up into the mid-1980's! She eventually bought a new Honda Accord at that time...

weister42
06-14-05, 06:28 PM
They make good college beaters, there are many on my campus:bouncy:

ben72227
06-14-05, 07:49 PM
Toyota makes some great cars, no doubt. But the styling just isn't there for me. I mean, I would rather get a Mazda3 than a Corolla, etc. And Honda's are REALLY bland for the price you pay. Yes, they are reliable, but I mean the new Accords at my Honda dealership were like 27 grand - for a HONDA! I could buy a BMW 3 series for that much or better yet, a Mustang:devil:V8.

Ralph
06-14-05, 07:52 PM
Toyota makes some great cars, no doubt. But the styling just isn't there for me. I mean, I would rather get a Mazda3 than a Corolla, etc. And Honda's are REALLY bland for the price you pay. Yes, they are reliable, but I mean the new Accords at my Honda dealership were like 27 grand - for a HONDA! I could buy a BMW 3 series for that much or better yet, a Mustang:devil:V8.

Accords here are 27 grand. (for a nice mid-level one) I figured they would be about 22K in the U.S. Depends which trim level I guess.

I think the new Accord hybrid will take Car of the Year if it didn't already??

SilverCTS
06-14-05, 10:24 PM
I drive a CTS--so a Camry and Accord aren't exactly my types of cars, but if I had to make a choice between the 2, I'd take the Honda anyday.

However, Toyota & Lexus are very popular. Both will continue to sell very well.

I hate to beat a dead horse, but if Cadillac could compete very well with Lexus, then why can't Chevy compete with Honda & Toyota???

This really drives me crazy. I would prefer a CTS, STS, XLR, Escalade over any Lexus or Acura WITHOUT QUESTION. But when it comes to the lower priced models, there is no way I would buy a Chevy Malibu or Impala over a Honda Accord or Toyota Camry. I just wouldn't...

ben72227
06-14-05, 11:10 PM
But when it comes to the lower priced models, there is no way I would buy a Chevy Malibu or Impala over a Honda Accord or Toyota Camry. I just wouldn't...

...which is one of GM's biggest problems. They're "bread and butter" cars suck ass, which is really not a good thing since that market sells the most vehicles and Japan, basically, dominates the budget/compact market. If Chevy put as much effort into the Cobalt as they did the new Z06, the Cobalt would be a class leader. But they don't; and its troubling. I mean, they spend billions to re-invent Cadillac with the cool marketing and a complete redesign of the cars, but they won't do so for their biggest brand of all and (argueably) the backbone of GM - Chevrolet.

majax
06-14-05, 11:20 PM
After studying up on hybrids and all, and how they are not as economical as Toyota and Honda want you to think, I have come to the conclusion that Toyota thinks Americans must be somewhat stupid if they think can pull this hybrid thing off on us. Well, some are buying them and I guess some are...I wont say it. Hybrids are not as economical as a normal quality plain gas car.

I think the Cobalt came out fairly decent!

Ralph
06-14-05, 11:28 PM
Hybrids are not as economical as a normal quality plain gas car.

I think the Cobalt came out fairly decent!

I've heard that for the Honda Civic hybrid to pay for itself and the extra expense over a regular Civic, you would have to drive it 26 years to get your moneys worth out of it! (to equal the gas savings) So if true, it's not really practical in that regard like you say. I'm impressed with the 255 hp (?) in the new Accord Hybrid, but probably only dedicated tree huggers will pay the extra expense for one to have the bragging rights, etc. The only other hybrid that I can think of with that kind of power might be the Lexus SUV Hybrid.

The Cobalt looks ok, but falls in the boring side of the scale IMO.

Playdrv4me
06-14-05, 11:32 PM
Hybrids are not a bad idea, like most new technologies, they just need some time to become more mainstream.

Ralph
06-14-05, 11:34 PM
Hybrids are not a bad idea, like most new technologies, they just need some time to become more mainstream.

I think GM, Ford and Chrysler are seriously going to be left behind in this department. Isn't Honda and Toyota already on their second or third generation hybrids like the Prius, etc!?

majax
06-14-05, 11:40 PM
I think the gas-electric Hybrid thing is a mistake and it will fall away like lazer discs and 8-tracks. Edmunds did a study not long after I did some research on my own and they discovered that gas prices would have to go up to $9.20 a gallon before you got your moneys worth. Currently Insurance is higher on hybrids, some are somewhat slow and small, and they the Prius (from what I heard from one owner) is sensative when it comes to wind resistance. Better yet hyrbrids are like the diesles that came out during the energy crisis in the 70's and early 80's. For a new tech to succede it has to be better from the get go(i think).

Ralph
06-14-05, 11:44 PM
I think the gas-electric Hybrid thing is a mistake and it will fall away like lazer discs and 8-tracks. Edmunds did a study not long after I did some research on my own and they discovered that gas prices would have to go up to $9.20 a gallon before you got your moneys worth. Currently Insurance is higher on hybrids, some are somewhat slow and small, and they the Prius (from what I heard from one owner) is sensative when it comes to wind resistance. Better yet hyrbrids are like the diesles that came out during the energy crisis in the 70's and early 80's. For a new tech to succede it has to be better from the get go(i think).

Well, what worries me is that if more people suddenly decide to buy these Hybrids, oil companies make less money, so then to make up the difference in losses, the oil companies will jack up the prices anyways, so we all suffer. It might not save anybody money in the end.

majax
06-14-05, 11:44 PM
I think GM, Ford and Chrysler are seriously going to be left behind in this department. Isn't Honda and Toyota already on their second or third generation hybrids like the Prius, etc!?

Once again I think this deperatment will fade into the dust. So in other words I believe it is more important for GM and the others to focus on building better gas engines. GM does have the hybrid truck but it uses that power for rear outlets and what not.

majax
06-14-05, 11:46 PM
Well, what worries me is that if more people suddenly decide to buy these Hybrids, oil companies make less money, so then to make up the difference in losses, the oil companies will jack up the prices anyways, so we all suffer. It might not save anybody money in the end.

I can agree with that, the auto industry and oil industry keep each other in check and if say the oil companies over price gas the car companies respond with more efficient cars and so on and so forth.

majax
06-14-05, 11:48 PM
Hasn't the technology to build highly effecient gas engines existed for a long time?

Ralph
06-14-05, 11:49 PM
Apparently quite a few people are buying those Mercedes "Smart Cars" here since they just started offering them. They make a decent city commuter car for people that live in the "burbs and just need to get into work everyday, etc.

Ralph
06-14-05, 11:49 PM
Hasn't the technology to build highly effecient gas engines existed for a long time?


I think so.

Can they supercharge a two cylender engine?? :p The supercharger would be bigger than the engine!

majax
06-14-05, 11:53 PM
Apparently quite a few people are buying those Mercedes "Smart Cars" here since they just started offering them. They make a decent city commuter car for people that live in the "burbs and just need to get into work everyday, etc.

Those are kinda cool, the only thing I would worry about is safety. Now that I think about it I think we are going through a period where the oil companies cannot keep up so the car companies are making more gas effecient cars so less gas can used in the overall market while the higher gas prices keep the oil companies compensated. My spelling has gone to hell:disappoin

majax
06-14-05, 11:53 PM
I think so.

Can they supercharge a two cylender engine?? :p The supercharger would be bigger than the engine!

I've seen turbos on lawn mowers:shhh:

Ralph
06-14-05, 11:55 PM
I've seen turbos on lawn mowers:shhh:

Isn't that basically a Prius?? :shhh: :yawn:

majax
06-14-05, 11:56 PM
As far as Toyota being an "unstopable force" I just think that they can better execute where to spend the money on a car. If you compare a GM car to a Toyota you will find that the money in most cases is more propotionaly spent throughout the vehicle while in a GM car it may be more focused in certain areas.

davesdeville
06-15-05, 03:22 AM
Well, what worries me is that if more people suddenly decide to buy these Hybrids, oil companies make less money, so then to make up the difference in losses, the oil companies will jack up the prices anyways, so we all suffer. It might not save anybody money in the end.

That's not exactly how supply and demand is supposed to work. There would be a reduction in demand so the equilibrium point would slide on down and to the left, meaning less production and cheaper prices. But who the hell knows what oil companies are thinking, they don't really follow economic principals like other companies tend to.

Randy_W
06-15-05, 07:34 AM
The question was. "Toyota an unstopple force?" The answer is NO! There is no such thing in this world. The same question was being asked about GM 35 years ago.;)

Playdrv4me
06-15-05, 02:38 PM
The question was. "Toyota an unstopple force?" The answer is NO! There is no such thing in this world. The same question was being asked about GM 35 years ago.;)

Microsoft too... oh wait... they are. :D

Ralph
06-16-05, 02:08 AM
The question was. "Toyota an unstopple force?" The answer is NO! There is no such thing in this world. The same question was being asked about GM 35 years ago.;)


How long before Toyota buys GM?? :p :hide:

BeelzeBob
06-16-05, 02:14 AM
Has anyone mentioned that Toyota is bringing back the Supra to compete with the Nissan 350Z and Mazda RX-8?

Ralph
06-16-05, 02:20 AM
Has anyone mentioned that Toyota is bringing back the Supra to compete with the Nissan 350Z and Mazda RX-8?

Never mentioned it here, but my buddy mentioned it to me the other day. I'll have to check that Car design site to see what it will probably look like and post it.....

Ralph
06-16-05, 02:30 AM
Has anyone mentioned that Toyota is bringing back the Supra to compete with the Nissan 350Z and Mazda RX-8?

Looks like they were considering THIS.....and who knows..

http://www.cardesignnews.com/autoshows/2001/tokyo/highlights/h12-toyota-fxs.html

Playdrv4me
06-16-05, 03:29 AM
I have to admit, the last Supra was LIGHT YEARS ahead of its time in design and power. There was alot you could do to that car and it STILL looks like it could have rolled off the showroom floor even today.

It was one of the few times Toyota managed to get a design 100 percent on. The twin-turbo versions in good condition still command as much as 30,000.00, which is just shy of what they cost NEW.

davesdeville
06-16-05, 05:14 AM
How long before Toyota buys GM?? :p :hide:

Why does your sig say not NOT to feed you?

Ralph
06-16-05, 05:37 PM
Why does your sig say not NOT to feed you?

That's like, not even funny Dave. :rolleyes2

Randy_W
06-17-05, 07:53 AM
But true!!!:thumbsup:

Ralph
06-17-05, 11:13 PM
Has anyone mentioned that Toyota is bringing back the Supra to compete with the Nissan 350Z and Mazda RX-8?

Actually, I suspect the new Supra will probably compete with the Corvette and Porsche 911. Powerful and expensive, a showpiece for Toyota's engineering and a display of their race car technology.

http://www.thecarconnection.com/Enthusiasts/Spy_Shots/Spy_Shots_06_Toyota_Supercar.S178.A7633.html

Boombotz
06-17-05, 11:16 PM
Actually, I suspect the new Supra will probably compete with the Corvette and Porsche 911. Powerful and expensive, a showpiece for Toyota's engineering and a display of their race car technology.

http://www.thecarconnection.com/Enthusiasts/Spy_Shots/Spy_Shots_06_Toyota_Supercar.S178.A7633.html

That thing looks bad ass!

Ralph
06-18-05, 05:04 AM
That thing looks bad ass!

And with 500 hp to back it up it's right up there with Ford GT, and Viper!

The last Supras were supposedly good vehicles, but they just got too expensive in the end. They were around $65,000 here!

fast66
06-18-05, 05:49 AM
On the smart cars. You can change the color of the outside anytime you want. It is like a nokia mobile phones with different covers that can be replaced easily. YOu just have to buy a different set of outside panels. Oh wow I was reading the forum really far back. I like the supras though very nice styling, I have not seen one from the inside though.

davesdeville
06-18-05, 07:03 AM
That "Supra" is lacks torque worse than the M5 lacks torque. I don't like that aspect of it. And Toyota doesn't need a $100k sports car, they need something more mainstream like the Supra was, and the 350Z is. It sure doesn't sound like the Z06 will have a problem with that price and torque descrepancy(sp.)

Randy_W
06-18-05, 07:47 AM
And with 500 hp to back it up it's right up there with Ford GT, and Viper!




And Corvette Z06! ;)

HotRodSaint
06-18-05, 11:46 AM
Why does your sig say not NOT to feed you?

You are not the only one who has questioned this. But it's best to leave it alone, so that you don't become the next target.

HotRodSaint
06-18-05, 11:49 AM
But true!!!:thumbsup:

Keep your observations to yourself!! :shhh:

Ralph
06-18-05, 03:53 PM
Inflammatory post

davesdeville
06-19-05, 05:50 AM
You are not the only one who has questioned this. But it's best to leave it alone, so that you don't become the next target.

Hmmm. He wasn't serious about Toyota buying GM and I was kidding around calling him a troll for that. I'm pretty sure he knows that too. I think everyone's done their fair share and some more in the CI forum, but other than that this site is pretty much troll free.

davesdeville
06-19-05, 05:51 AM
BTW at that price no one's going to buy a Supra that can't beat a $35k+ less Z06. Well, the die hard import people might. Just like how the die hard Ford people will buy the GT.

Ralph
06-19-05, 06:04 AM
Hmmm. He wasn't serious about Toyota buying GM

He gets it.

Ralph
06-19-05, 06:11 AM
BTW at that price no one's going to buy a Supra that can't beat a $35k+ less Z06. Well, the die hard import people might. Just like how the die hard Ford people will buy the GT.

Ahhh, but won't the Supra beat a Zo6?? I don't think Toyota will be outdone when the new Supra emerges, because they want that "Supercar" image now.

You are right, there are die hard import fans who would never think of ever owning a Corvette.

HotRodSaint
06-19-05, 11:54 AM
I think everyone's done their fair share and some more in the CI forum, but other than that this site is pretty much troll free.

He get's it.

HotRodSaint
06-19-05, 12:32 PM
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HotRodSaint
06-19-05, 12:34 PM
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Playdrv4me
06-19-05, 12:38 PM
It sure doesn't sound like the Z06 will have a problem with that price and torque descrepancy(sp.)

The Z06 isnt going to have a problem with basically anything on four wheels Dave.

Anyone know if there are any Videos out there yet (Motorweek, NewCarTestDrive, etc) of an actual Z06 Road Test? Im dying to see it.

HotRodSaint
06-19-05, 01:26 PM
Has anyone mentioned that Toyota is bringing back the Supra to compete with the Nissan 350Z and Mazda RX-8?

Which means that it probably won't be this V10 supercar!! :rolleyes:

Could Toyota be making TWO sports car's? :lildevil:

They have TWO divisions!! :shhh:

HotRodSaint
06-19-05, 01:33 PM
BTW at that price no one's going to buy a Supra that can't beat a $35k+ less Z06.


Which is why it won't be called a Supra, or even a Toyota! :thumbsup:

Ralph
06-19-05, 04:56 PM
http://www.thecarconnection.com/Enthusiasts/Spy_Shots/Spy_Shots_06_Toyota_Supercar.S178.A7633.html

"'06 Toyota SUPERCAR"

"it's been a little jealous of supercars like the Porsche Carrera GT, too. Toyota 's been caught testing what some insiders are calling the "TXS," a limited-production exotic that might be powered by a V-10 engine worth 500 hp."

If someone would bother to read correctly, the KEY words in the article were "might be powered" by a V-10 engine" If there is a new artilcl out there with a link regarding the new engine for the Supra, POST IT! That was NOT the issue with someone here, the issue is WE DO NOT KNOW at this point WHAT engine they will use, is that clear enough from the article??

Regurgitation of mere words from my article does not win credibility, not with me. Not while trying to "bait" for a future flame. Nor will some people be fooled by a newly acquired "Supporting Member" badge as making one impervious to the "T" label.

My own opinion is that they won't spend millions re-creating the Supra to be beaten by a Corvette. It will at least, most likely, be a match for it and perhaps even more, time will tell. They could easily get that kind of power out of a V8 regardless...

HotRodSaint
06-19-05, 05:09 PM
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Ralph
06-19-05, 05:10 PM
Inflammatory post

Ralph
06-19-05, 05:13 PM
Inflammatory post

HotRodSaint
06-19-05, 05:13 PM
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HotRodSaint
06-19-05, 05:14 PM
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Stoneage_Caddy
06-19-05, 05:21 PM
ok keep it up children and ill lock it ....

take it to PM ....no more of the public bullshit ....BOTH OF YOU

Ralph
06-19-05, 05:22 PM
Inflammatory post

HotRodSaint
06-19-05, 05:28 PM
Content Deleted by Moderator

Inflammatory my a$$.

Stoneage_Caddy
06-19-05, 05:30 PM
Inflammatory my a$$.
reported

HotRodSaint
06-19-05, 05:36 PM
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BeelzeBob
06-19-05, 07:46 PM
Guys. This is unbelieveable.. If posts are considered inflammatory, please move them to Topics Under Review and the team will make a decision on how to proceed. This bickering needs to stop and be taken somewhere else.

HotRodSaint
06-19-05, 09:13 PM
If someone would bother to read correctly, the KEY words in the article...

Those that do read correctly, quickly found these to be the key words: "...limited production run of about 10,000 units..."

That's not a Supra. That's a 2000GT.

Ralph
06-19-05, 09:16 PM
Here are the key words: "...limited production run of about 10,000 units..."

Aw, c'mon, don't edit out your flame. In the mean time, avoid me for the betterment of the forum.

BeelzeBob
06-19-05, 09:17 PM
You guys do know about the ignore feature. Don't you? I think you should each have one another on it...

Ralph
06-19-05, 09:21 PM
You guys do know about the ignore feature. Don't you? I think you should each have one another on it...

If he hates me so much, why can't he just simply avoid me?

Many times I have told him to AVOID ME and not BAIT me!

I'm done!

HotRodSaint
06-19-05, 09:42 PM
The message was clear: a super Toyota is only sellable if the companyís F1 effort, which consumes circa $400 million annually, is not being whipped on Sundays by tiny boutique teams from Switzerland spending five times less. (http://www.speedtv.com/articles/automotive/newmodels/17406/)

<snip>

According to British magazine Autocar, the production LF-A - which could still be badged a Lexus, especially in markets, such as the USA, where F1 isnít as popular as in Europe - would have a layout similar to another F1-inspired supercar, the Mercedes SLR McLaren.

In practical terms, that would mean a front-engine, rear-wheel drive chassis built around a central carbon-fiber monocoque. Body panels would be all-aluminum.

Development cars are reportedly already being road-tested, although engine-wise, it remains to be confirmed whether Toyota will go for a more exotic V12 alternative or opt for a V8 to keep closer ties to the F1 ethos - the carís scheduled 2006 debut would coincide with F1ís new motor regulations, which will downgrade the current 3.0-liter V10s to 2.4L V8s beginning next year.

HotRodSaint
06-19-05, 09:53 PM
If he hates me so much, why can't he just simply avoid me?

I don't hate you.

I just don't appreciate the condescending arrogant tone you use when addressing me in your replies. This thread contains a good example of your pettiness:


If someone would bother to read correctly, the KEY words in the article were "might be powered" by a V-10 engine" If there is a new artilcl out there with a link regarding the new engine for the Supra, POST IT! That was NOT the issue with someone here, the issue is WE DO NOT KNOW at this point WHAT engine they will use, is that clear enough from the article??

Regurgitation of mere words from my article does not win credibility, not with me. Not while trying to "bait" for a future flame. Nor will some people be fooled by a newly acquired "Supporting Member" badge as making one impervious to the "T" label.

If you would just rise up out of the mire, and display some basic manners, then everyone here would be very grateful.

But if you keep posting in this manner, and then claim to be a victim, more and more people are going to get tired of you and your obsessive personality.

Ralph
06-19-05, 10:00 PM
I don't hate you.

I just don't appreciate the condescending arrogant tone you use when addressing me in your replies. This thread contains a good example of your pettiness:



If you would just rise up out of the mire, and display some basic manners, then everyone here would be very grateful.

But if you keep posting in this manner, and then claim to be a victim, more and more people are going to get tired of you and your obsessive personality.

All people have to do is look at who the victim is here and our history in the CI forum. I have seen how you treat eat people when they apologize to you, like danbuc for example. The lesson here is that there is no reason for anyone to apologize.

I have told you before to avoid me for the betterment of the forum, please do so and take your flame-baiting elsewhere.

HotRodSaint
06-19-05, 10:16 PM
All people have to do is look at who the victim is here and our history in the CI forum. I have seen how you treat eat people when they apologize to you, like danbuc for example. The lesson here is that there is no reason for anyone to apologize

I'm not asking for anyone to apologize. I'm asking for you to stop your condescending arrogant tone with me.

I'll even let you hold onto the past, since that seems so important to you.

Ralph
06-19-05, 11:17 PM
Here's an apology.............

"Hot Rod Saint, if you read this, I don;t wish to argue with you anymore on the subject, as I'm tired of throwing around useless insult, and I'm late for school. What do you say to a truce?"-danbuc

Here was YOUR response........

"F**K YOU, you little peice of sh!t!"-HRS

http://cadillacforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33327&highlight=apology

Feel free to offer the same response again. Guess I should just turn the other cheek!!

HotRodSaint
06-19-05, 11:43 PM
Feel free to offer the same response again.

It's too bad that you didn't include the other link where he called me names for 3 days straight. That might have brought some context into the conversation, don't you think?

And I'm also glad that Danbuc and I didn't keep rehashing the past every other day, like you seem intent on doing.

davesdeville
06-20-05, 01:51 AM
I'm so glad I left CI. HRS and I actually get along pretty well as car guys.

Forget "TNT: We know drama" it's actually "CadillacForums: We know drama."

HotRodSaint
06-20-05, 09:24 AM
I'm so glad I left CI. HRS and I actually get along pretty well as car guys.

We do, don't we? :thumbsup:

BeelzeBob
06-20-05, 11:44 AM
This discussion has played its course.