Just heard that GM is dropping the bomb on 25,000 employees. Closing down a few plants as well.

It seems many the analyst feels the only way GM is ever going to be able to compete with corporations like Toyota, they'll need to get smaller and more focused. This may be the beginning. It will be interesting to see what unfolds for GM over the next 5 years.

I think we can all agree that they have been doing something right with Cadillac over the last 3 years. However, Cadillac still has an overabundant supply and the other marques aren't even close. I just hope a new V next year will still go for over $45G. Incentives only keep the boat floating for so long.

And though I'm a fan of the stick, IMO Cadillac will have to make the next CTS-V with an SMG or an auto to get anything approaching the kind of sales interest that they want. Most Americans just want to be able to mash the pedal down.

And though I'm a fan of the stick, IMO Cadillac will have to make the next CTS-V with an SMG or an auto to get anything approaching the kind of sales interest that they want. Most Americans just want to be able to mash the pedal down.

How TRUE. Americans are LAZY with a capital :yawn: . The Jetson Syndrome. And then they complain about pushing buttons.

In LA Traffic (or should I say PARKING LOTS) shifting can be brutal. But a trues sports car driver knows HE controls the automobile, not vice versa.

I drove the BMW M3 with that funky semi auto matic before I bought my VEE. It felt like the old VW with the semi auto clutch, just the shifter. Well, It is either all or nothing for me. I like being in control.

I was talking to a Caddy rep yesterday, and, we just might have more of a classic than we thought here.

I was talking to a Caddy rep yesterday, and, we just might have more of a classic than we thought here.

Meaning? Last year of the manual? 2006 model cancelled? No new 2007 model? :hmm:

Americans are LAZY with a capital :yawn: .

I'd have to disagree. We are just too tired to shift after a long hard day of ruling the world.

Did anyone catch the national news story? GM now has a $1,600 penalty on every car they sell due to retirees. There are currently 2 retirees for every 1 working employee. They interviewed a union worker who has been retired since 1972 collecting a full pension, health benefits, etc. The union legacy will cripple GM out of existence.

Cvp33.....you Are Right!!!!!the Unions Should Understand That By Now!

I'd have to disagree. We are just too tired to shift after a long hard day of ruling the world.

:histeric:

Barak: I'm going in to Mark Christopher in Ontario to get some warranty work done tomorrow AM. I've heard on posts here that some Caddy dealers have loaners, but apparently MC doesn't. They use Enterprise, but I refuse to rent a car for warranty work! Ack!! Guess I'll be schlepping around the dealership all morning...

:histeric:

Barak: I'm going in to Mark Christopher in Ontario to get some warranty work done tomorrow AM. I've heard on posts here that some Caddy dealers have loaners, but apparently MC doesn't. They use Enterprise, but I refuse to rent a car for warranty work! Ack!! Guess I'll be schlepping around the dealership all morning...

LAW 5,

Nabers Caddy rented me an Enterprise car, but I was responsiable for the added insurance if I wanted it. At 1st they didn't have any, so They shuttled me home until Enterprise had one. I got to drive the SRX "Station Wagon" for a day until they got the part.

YUCK:brutal:

It's more than that...it's 2200.00 off the line for pension and bene's. GM's unions, according to Fortune, do not pay a dime for insurance.....

I used to work for UPS (Teamsters). While some were concerned and wanted to partner with the company to make it work for all the vast majority (80%) would rather see UPS go out of business then look for solutions. It was crazy....during the strike I had my "friends" shoot at me with a BB gun, knife my tires and break my friends jaw as we were driving across the line....just so you know what your talking about here...One of my friends was killed when they cut him off in his tractor and he tumbled over the ramp....he was 54, family and one year from retiring....nices guy you ever met....

Barak: I'm going in to Mark Christopher in Ontario to get some warranty work done tomorrow AM. I've heard on posts here that some Caddy dealers have loaners, but apparently MC doesn't. They use Enterprise, but I refuse to rent a car for warranty work! Ack!! Guess I'll be schlepping around the dealership all morning...

Stop by and say hi, I work 5 minutes from there off 4th street.

you know it's kinda funny to me... there was something about being able to pay these good people who retired after working years establishing GM's good reputation... it's funny to me because these good people - at the time - negiotiated in good faith that the retirement system as presented to them would work out for them. Now it's as if people are saying it's their fault for NOT knowing things were going to turn out as they have. I hold no grudges cause I really can't point a finger anywhere and say someone knowingly did this. Although I'm sure there were plenty of financially savy people at the time saying... look, 20 years from now it's someone elses problem

But I can draw a parallel with my father's retirement. One earned working for Uncle Sam building the Naval Ships that helped make it possible to win the cold war. It is NOTHING like what he hoped was going to be there for him and his wife when he planned on it with the numbers they had to work with back then.

And if all these good people are a burden to "us" now; what will we be like to our kids and grandkids if it all goes south on us too? Even with our best projections of our future wealth, we can see from the past, things don't always scale.

CVP33, the '72 retiree is an unusal one. My father is a GM retiree and was reading the monthly union publication's obit. Most did not live 10 years from retirement.

The schedule calls for two facilities including 3500 people was in the works and is included in the 25K. If the current facilities became efficient as desired maybe two more facilities would close. The current ones are more efficient and some are not needed. The schedule production is negative but only slightly which means not much change but a bump in the financial sector.

Norm

Merle,

Don't worry. Depending on your age there will be no Social Security to speak of for my generation or my son's. Entitlements bestowed on baby boomers will bankrupt our country within the next 20 to 25 years. I have no pension, no hope of Social Security or Medicare and that's why I max my 401K, I-Bonds and personal savings to the tune of $50,000 per year. My only hope is that this is enough. I'm 39 and those my age and younger will have nothing, literally nothing as the baby boomers begin to retire and draw on their benefits. My advice to my age group is start saving your ass off now while you still can.

Merle,

Don't worry. Depending on your age there will be no Social Security to speak of for my generation or my son's. Entitlements bestowed on baby boomers will bankrupt our country within the next 20 to 25 years. I have no pension, no hope of Social Security or Medicare and that's why I max my 401K, I-Bonds and personal savings to the tune of $50,000 per year. My only hope is that this is enough. I'm 39 and those my age and younger will have nothing, literally nothing as the baby boomers begin to retire and draw on their benefits. My advice to my age group is start saving your ass off now while you still can.Agreed. As for unions, I think they can serve a valuable purpose. But I don't care for their tactics as stated above and the hardline views that instead of just giving the workers a fair share, cripple the companies that employ them.

you know it's kinda funny to me... there was something about being able to pay these good people who retired after working years establishing GM's good reputation... it's funny to me because these good people - at the time - negiotiated in good faith that the retirement system as presented to them would work out for them. Now it's as if people are saying it's their fault for NOT knowing things were going to turn out as they have....

And if all these good people are a burden to "us" now; what will we be like to our kids and grandkids if it all goes south on us too? Even with our best projections of our future wealth, we can see from the past, things don't always scale.

Its not their fault. But the retirement situation is part of the problem. That cannot be denied. Is it GM's leadership from the 70s, 80s, 90s, and today's "fault" that GM is where it is? Yes. But not entirely. In any event assigning fault doesn't solve the current dilema.

Any solution has to include looking at the retirement situation. It has to include looking at unions, at plants, at suppliers, at volume run numbers, at marketing, at design, at stock valuation, at executive compensation, at engineering, at sales, at...

Sorry to left turn the thread, but I wanted to say that I was wrong to diss Mark Christopher. On the phone I asked, "Do you have loaner cars?" and the answer was, "No, but we have Enterprise here on the lot." She didn't explain and so I thought I'd have to rent a car. But they're free for warranty work.

Sorry to left turn the thread, but I wanted to say that I was wrong to diss Mark Christopher. On the phone I asked, "Do you have loaner cars?" and the answer was, "No, but we have Enterprise here on the lot." She didn't explain and so I thought I'd have to rent a car. But they're free for warranty work.

The caddy dealers here in VA do the same thing. You gotta pay 3 or 4 bucks for tax......and for any extra LDW that you might want. Possibly same nationwide?

Nice clean cars, if not v's.......so no complaints from me.

The caddy dealers here in VA do the same thing. You gotta pay 3 or 4 bucks for tax......and for any extra LDW that you might want. Possibly same nationwide?

Nice clean cars, if not v's.......so no complaints from me.

We have this alot here too, only some rental counters charge the end user (driver) for the tax others don't (even in the same rental co), altho minor I complained to my local dealer about this and they fixed it, the total rental expense chould be covered under warranty work. LDW is always optional and is almost never needed in CA.

Its not their fault. But the retirement situation is part of the problem. That cannot be denied. Is it GM's leadership from the 70s, 80s, 90s, and today's "fault" that GM is where it is? Yes. But not entirely. In any event assigning fault doesn't solve the current dilema.

First off, I'm not a particular fan of unions, in so many industries the wall of work rules they've created around themselves has left those industries hollow shells. That said, in the end it's the employer that has to agree to the contract.

Automakers were not whining about pension costs back in the '90s when pension fund returns from the booming stock market were huge and they were able to pocket the surpluses. The money managers get careless and equities turn south for a few years and...guess what? No more pensions.

What was needed fifty years ago was to establish corporate pension plans in law as independently-held secured creditors of the entities that ran them. But we're not there, and the pension as it's evolved in this country is screwed.

It's often difficult to compare labor costs on an apples-to-apples basis; we are pretty much the last first-world nation (are we one anymore?) that doesn't fund healthcare through some sort of mandatory national program, whether the money comes from general taxes or from employer assessments, our healthcare costs are far higher than most of the rest of the world, and retirement costs fall more heaviliy on employers in the US.

On the other side of the scale US workers get less vacation and fewer non-monetary perks than much of the industrialized world. So, as long as you're talking about the traditional industrialized world the playing field isn't too off-kilter.

But right now we're in a huge international race to the bottom regarding labor costs, manufacturers are looking for where they can hire the cheapest with the fewest regulations. From a corporate perspective employees are a Bad Thing.

A cynic would say the perfect corporate entity in today's world buys in its product from the lowest bidder (and therefore has no manufacturing facilities, no labor force, no liability for toxic or other side effects of the manufacturing process, and can change suppliers on a whim to lower costs if Sri Lanka is cheaper than China this month) and outsources all its warehousing, support, etc. for the same reasons. You've got a couple purchasing clerks and an IP attorney and a logo designer and a couple execs and that's it.

Meaning? Last year of the manual? 2006 model cancelled? No new 2007 model? :hmm:

Is this credible? Wouldnt be a surprise due to the number sold although the Z-06 is just a small part of the Vette sales.

Back to oblivious GM - wouldn't it be better to figure out how to make cars that people actually liked and wanted to buy without including $5000 incentives per car. If your cars & trucks were selling, then it is unlikely that your plants would not be producing. While it is true that you always need to review production efficiencies and make changes where appropriate, good product = lots a buyers = no utilization issues.

Just my .02

A cynic would say the perfect corporate entity in today's world buys in its product from the lowest bidder (and therefore has no manufacturing facilities, no labor force, no liability for toxic or other side effects of the manufacturing process, and can change suppliers on a whim to lower costs if Sri Lanka is cheaper than China this month) and outsources all its warehousing, support, etc. for the same reasons. You've got a couple purchasing clerks and an IP attorney and a logo designer and a couple execs and that's it.

Nailed the mentality.
Too bad this "appears" to be the current 'most successful' model for businesses today... :helpless:

What I wonder though; when the business of business is all handled by three people and a whole lot of machines: how long will the transition be for all of us now/then useless people to have a sustenance / subsistance level of living again? :rant2:

Another paradigm shift in what it means to be human I see coming.

Did anyone catch the national news story? GM now has a $1,600 penalty on every car they sell due to retirees. There are currently 2 retirees for every 1 working employee. They interviewed a union worker who has been retired since 1972 collecting a full pension, health benefits, etc. The union legacy will cripple GM out of existence.
If you are salaried, does this mean you will decline all medical insurance and retirement payments, to protect the profit sharing of your boss?
Or, as reported, does this mean that GM, as do many other companies, underfunds their retirement plan?!

Defined benefit plans are fast becoming the dinosaur of retirement plans. We will see many more United Airline situations over the next few years and the PBGC will have to bail them out. Guess who will have to bail out the PBGC eventually - you and I.

GM like many American companies got, and still remains to some degree, complacent and even arrogant regarding the kind and quality of products they produce. American auto manufacturers are no longer the innovators in the market place. Japan has assumed that role now but look out for Korea and China is the 800 lb. gorilla waiting in the wings.

Don't get me wrong, I like my V but my '93 BMW has fewer rattles at 100 thousand miles than my V has with 3,200 miles. I'm sure they can be fixed but the point is my BMW and my Nissan Maxima before then never needed anything but routine maintenance. However, if GM kills cars like the V they have admitted defeat IMO. But they need to keep building them better and not just meet, but exceed the competition.

And I'm not a union basher but if GM goes under what happens to retirees and current employees then. :(

in my parking lot today there are 4 count them 4 american cars out of about 30. almost all of the cars are toyotas and volkswagons.

GM Management is COMPLETELY to blame for this whole thing:

a) lack of long term vision and skimping here and there for 20+ years has turned the term "AMERICAN CAR" into a vision of a crappy reagan era car that has parts engineered to break immediately after the warranty expired.

b) they also screwed up by even AGREEING to the Union terms in the first place, so even though the unions are just being greedy, who can really blame them, if GM agreed to it who else is to blame?

c) I think they are at least doing the right things now, downsizing is obviously going to be necessary. Take Chevy for example, they need to just scrap 90% of the crap they are selling and focus on just a couple nice quality cars. a cheap 2 door commuter, a 4 door family car, a non-mammoth SUV, trucks, and obviously they have to keep the staples like the Corvette. They get those up and running with brand new names/marketing/really nice deals to get the young people who don't remember or weren't around during the 80s to forget about them. Once those lines are profitable then you can start expanding again. just make the new cars look as much like the CTS-V like every other company is trying to do (man there are a lot of lookalikes starting to pop up, which means Caddy really did a great job since imitation is the ultimate flattery)

kids all love the V, so the next generation is not going to be so afraid to buy american. I can't believe so many people buy camrys and maximas and jettas and then complain when american companies go out of business...duH?!

BMW quality has nothing to do with GM Financial management. GM chose not to continue to fully fund their retirement plans. All Union personnel as well as those Salaried have the audacity to have negotiated a wage that includes retirement and medical insurance.
For those of you whose job is merely a hobby, possibly any retirement funding would be redundant to your indepent financial status. For the rest of us, our contracted and/or negotiated compensation for our work includes a retirement payment package. Is the retirement "benefit" meant to imply that this is some sort of welfare dole? Retirement, medical and such are earned compensation for the most productive workers in the world. GM's cost per worker has, unfortunately, been exaserbated by the substantially increasing medical costs along with the greater longevity of the American worker.

Maybe it's all hype, but everything I have read in many publications has GM second only to Toyota (lexus) in defects per 100,000. BMW and Mercedes are actually some of the lowest in this rating.

Cadillac is 5th and Buick second only to lexus in defects after 3 years. Cadillac also has 3 of the top ten cars, the CTS being the best for defects per 100k.

GM's financial issues are not quality. These issues are costs and how to control them. The only way to reduce costs are to reduce employee's, reduce benefits, outsource or improve effficiencies.....

Good news, Toyota announced they will begin charging more for their cars. GM no longer needs to worry about competition....

Stop by and say hi, I work 5 minutes from there off 4th street.

Barak, I left you a PM to call me but didn't hear from you. Catch you next time.

GM salaried workers are not under a labor contract that I am aware of. Father was 35+ years with GM. Degreed accountant making less than a factory line worker. My father had fewer benefits, vacations days, etc. vs. his blue collar counter parts. The unions can negotiate as tenaciously as they wish, but it is at their own peril.

I currently employ 5,000+ non-union associates. Our wages are competitive because they have to be. Our benefits are class leading because they have to be. We treat our associates fairly because it's the right thing to do. In a competitive job environment like we have today it's employers chasing the employees not vice versa. A union would do nothing in my business but protect unproductive workers, garnish wages with union dues and place undo stress on already razor thin margin rates.

Imagine a world where mediocrity is rewarded, tenure is taken over quality and protecting the status quo is paramount. That is a union environment. I prefer a place where enthusiasm and dedication are rewarded regardless of tenure. I prefer an environment where everyone is encouraged to grow and develop with a healthy bit of competitiveness. I prefer a non-union work environment.

Chris,

I serve the American, German and Japanese auto manufacturers. I have seen the union cripple the Americans for the last 18 years of my life by allowing lax work ethics, substandard quality control and the status quo of union shop work attitudes. Its every man for himself in the US auto plants. I wouldnt dare drop a pencil in most of the joints as it would land in cutting fluid or some other slop. And dare I even think of adjusting anything to make it work better...the union guys jump all over me and tell to wait for the electrician, the plumber, the whatever. The Japanese and German shops...I could eat off their floors, and they hand me a wrench to do my business to get them back on line. Im ashamed of what the unions have done to the big 2 and DCX....its time for a union enema, but the only ones bending over are the customer.

My .02

F

Lockhart Cadillac in Indy always has a Cadilac loaner, or will rent a DeVille from Enterprise for me. I have to pay my own extra insurance, but I find it well worth the $14.00. When my wife's SRX needed service, I got a DeVille and was able to get it airborne out on a country road. I also did some impromptu skidpad testing in a friend's parking lot. FUNFUNFUN! (althouogh not as much as hammering my V):thumbsup:

Who stole my screenname and posted for me? I sound way too insightful...

I'm sayin'.

And though I'm a fan of the stick, ...

And look there, in black & white. :lol: Mr. Slushie speaks.



(OK, black & blue. whatever.)