: pan seal ??????



anton_555
06-05-05, 02:01 PM
hi everyone,

im a brit who owns a 94 deville concours that has got a major leak from the pan seal. iv got under it and visually checked that it is the pan seal that is leaking and now need to find out the corrcet way to replace it. as you can guess manuals are not exactly easy to come by over here so if anyone can give me a step by step rundown i would much appreaciate it!!!!!
how easy is the exhaust pipe to remove as it is in the way of the pan??? this is what has stopped me from dropping of the pan so far.

cheers in advance,

cbellpeanut
06-07-05, 03:52 AM
i think the transmission is in the way also

jackc
06-07-05, 10:23 AM
Assuming you have a Northstar. A problem these can have is that oil can seep into the oil pan bolt holes and leak out. It looks exactly like a pan gasket leak.

To replace the pan gasket, you have to pull the engine. Before you go to that extreme, do yourself a favor and remove a couple of pan bolts. If they are wet with oil, you should try sealing them. To do so, clean the bolt and hole with brake cleaner. Coat the bolt with permatex thread sealer and reinstall. Do them one at a time.

This may fix your problem and save you ALOT of money.

95Concours
06-07-05, 02:10 PM
Just curious, they make cadillac devilles in right hand drive configurations?

anton_555
06-07-05, 02:57 PM
yes it is the northstar unit.

is there no way i can drop off the down pipe that runs beneath the pan without pulling the engine? this appears to be the only thing stopping me from simply unbolting and removing it as i think it will clear the transmission.

thanks for the tip on the bolt holes, i'l check it out right now.

No, the deville is a lefty, there are no RHD devilles, they are not imported into the UK. I personally imported it last month from florida and i think its the only one in the country (has its + and - points).

thanks for the info so far guys, much appreciated!!!!!

anton_555
06-07-05, 03:55 PM
ok, i just checked the bolts and they are indeed wet with oil. However i have sat there a whatched the engine and there is no oil leaking from them. the oil is ooozing out of the top joint of the pan seal, notably in between the locations of the bolts so i can safely assume that the pan seal is dead.

has anyone out there physically done a pan seal change themselves???? i could seriously do with avoiding any sort of engine lifting/removal.......

jackc
06-07-05, 06:20 PM
OK. I did a fairly lengthy study of my leaks with dye in the oil. The leaks do start at the bolt holes. The oil runs down the bolts to the pan lip. Then it spreads out across the pan lip until it spills over the sides and down the pan. Trust me - you need to put sealant on those bolts. I know you're convinced its the pan gasket - I was too. But seal those bolts......... It'll cost you about $3 and an hour of your time.

anton_555
06-07-05, 08:50 PM
i see, hint taken!!

I'l try that first before wrestling the pan out.

should the threads and holes be completely bone dry and free from oil???? there is a lot in the couple of holes that i tested, i didnt completely remove the bolts but i could see oil starting to run down the threads, and this was with the engine off. and also i think its worth mentioning that this is a pretty horific leak. oil runs down from all sides and within 2 minutes of starting it up, there is oil streaming down the pan. (above the seal is relatively clean so it not the case half). drips come off from all round the pan every 5 seconds or so.........

it would be a dream if sealing the holes fixes it....fingers crossed

jackc
06-07-05, 10:37 PM
Mmm. Sounds like you've got a pretty good leak going there. But lets give this a chance. Yes - clean out the holes good. I used spray brake cleaner for mine. it gets the oil and dries quickly. Then clean the bolts and slather 'em up with the thread sealant and reinstall. Torque to 9 ft lbs (10 Nm). Sounds like your bolts may be a little loose too.

The thing to hang hope on is that the pan gaskets are pretty stout on these - more of a round silicone bead in a channel than the typical cork pan gasket you might think of.

Fingers crossed.

growe3
06-08-05, 12:17 AM
The oil pan on a Northstar engine cannot be removed without seperating the engine and tranmission.

It is not just the exhaust cross-under, the pan will not clear the transmission. The pan must drop a good distance, to clear it's long oil pickup tube. There is just no room.

As others have suggested remove the oil pan bolts a few at a time, use spray brake cleaner to flush the holes and bolts free of oil. Allow to dry then apply thread sealant to the bolts and reinstall them.

I use a 1/4" ratchet with an 8" extension, and a 10 mm flex-socket. With this setup I can get to all of the bolts.

Make the bolts good and snug, but do not over tighten them. The oil pan gasket is silicone and overtightening the pan will only strip the bolts and create a worse leak.

Most of the time the oil leak is annoying, but not really harmful to the engine.

-George

Pjs
06-08-05, 06:42 AM
Another thing you may want to do is get some carb cleaner and clean the pan joint as good as you can. You will notice a 1/4" plate above the pan, that is the oil manifold. The manifold has a silicon seal to the bottom of the block and then the oil pan seals to the bottom of the oil manifold. Once it's clean, have someone start the engine and watch to see if oil seeps from above the manifold. In my engine...tightening the bolts only made my oil leak worse as both the manifold and oil pan seals were leaking badly.

anton_555
06-08-05, 03:05 PM
thanks for all the advice, if that 1/4 inch jobbie is the oil manifold then the leak seems to be coming from the top mating surface of this......... how did you resolve your leak pj's??????

as soon as i get some thread sealer, i'll try to seal up the bolts.

never again will i assume that a leaky pan is a "simple" fix.......... and i thought european cars were a pain in the backsideto work on!!!!!

i dont remember reading about the "total loss oil system" in the manual, must have missed it. LOL.

i'll keep you posted.

Pjs
06-09-05, 06:49 AM
I resolved my leaks by pulling the cradle and engine. Of course my engine was leaking a couple of qt's a week and leaving huge puddles under it. I bought the car with a known oil pan leak, but having never really looked at a N* before I figured changing the seal wasn't any big deal...till I got the car home and crawled up under it. Turns out that on my particular engine (129K miles) the seals on the pan and manifold were just old and shrunk below the mating surfaces. I purchased a new oil manifold at the dealer for $125. There ended up being a problem that only a few people were aware of and that is that the original manifold design was changed for a new version, requiring the oil pick up tube and windage tray to be replaced for newer versions as well. The 3rd time I went to bolt all this together, the main bearing bolts stripped which then required pulling the crank, replacing the rod bearings and timeserting the block. Good news is that I've got new seals throughout the entire engine except for the headgaskets and it doesn't leak a drop, engine now has a 146K on it.

I've posted a couple threads here for you to check out.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23672
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24550

anton_555
06-12-05, 10:19 AM
iv just finnished sealing up all the holes as you advised me and am now waiting for some 10 30 oil to turn up (not reaily available in the UK) as i drained the oil beforehand. i really hope this works or else i dread to think what an engine pull is gonna cost.

on another point, when i took off the oil filter a 2 inch long spring and washer dropped out onto the floor. Dont suppose you know what this is for and where it locates. i had a quick look but not 100% convinced of where it is supposed to be located.

cheers for all your advice, much appreciated!

jackc
06-13-05, 11:26 AM
I'll take a look at my manual tonight and see if it has a diagram. I'll let you know if I find anything.

anton_555
06-13-05, 01:41 PM
cheers, another member has told me it is the check valve and that it happened to his car whilst at a dealership.

im not sure but i think the spring slides inside the secondary vertical oil tube (outer one) and then the washer is pushed inside the visible seat (then knocked in tight) to retain the spring. but im not sure if there is suposed to be a ball bearing in there?

thanks for taking the time to help me out.

zonie77
06-13-05, 09:47 PM
Something to know...the exhaust pipe is a doubled tube. Do not cut it. If sealing and tightening it doesn't work you will have to drop the cradle.

anton_555
06-14-05, 02:33 PM
cheers for the advice. i will just have to accept an engine out job if this doesnt work. dont suppose you have any experience with the oil check valve in the oil filter mounting block?

im sure there is supposed to be either a ball bearing or similar in there but nobody seems to know?????

sts96
06-15-05, 10:15 AM
There is a oil manifold on top of the oil pan which carries some oil pressure ( the 1/4 inch plate at the top of the pan ) as the seal ages and shrinks due to hot oil of unknown quality it will leak far more than a pan seal.
After reading the forum about pan leaks I tried this on my sons northstar with 114k miles.
Washed the pan seal area with a cheap spray cleaner (Wallmart brake cleaner) to remove dirt an oil backout pan bolts till loose spray with crc brake cleaner to allow wicking of cleaner to soak into seal allow to set for 15 min. repeat till can of cleaner is used up tighten pan bolts up. This has cut the oil leakage on this engine, rear main seal still leaking some. also replaced leaking oil sender unit.
if you try this be sure to wear safety glasses it is a messy project. sts96

anton_555
06-15-05, 02:52 PM
i cleaned up the pan area using brake cleaner and sealed all the holes using thread sealer and torqued them all up correctly, now im just waiting for some info on the check valve as i cant put any oil back in untill i have fixed it.

the spring and retaining washer fell out and now i need to know whether there is a ball bearing missing and if so what size and how it fitsin etc.

thanks for the advice.

greggbruce
06-15-05, 08:58 PM
ok, i just checked the bolts and they are indeed wet with oil. However i have sat there a whatched the engine and there is no oil leaking from them. the oil is ooozing out of the top joint of the pan seal, notably in between the locations of the bolts so i can safely assume that the pan seal is dead.

has anyone out there physically done a pan seal change themselves???? i could seriously do with avoiding any sort of engine lifting/removal.......
I have done a few of these and just bought a 93 with 257,000 miles that has the same condition. if sealing the pan bolt holes don't fix it, I have seen a lot of these that have the seals between the upper and lower crankcase leak (they are the same type seals as the oil pan), and replacing these is the most complete repair for the problem, I also put a small dab of silicone sealer at the ends and corners of each of the seals to help them last longer before they leak again. it does mean the engine comes out, exhaust then comes off, then flip the engine upside down on the stand and unbolt it all and replace the little seals between the crankcase halves and the oil pan.
I do it all at once, I think book time is around 8 to 10 hours, and it takes about 5 to do in my shop(you get faster the more you do)

this is a VERY common problem with these engines,(as well as olds aurora) (you'd think they would re engineer it) I usually see it starting around 80 to 90k miles.
I just fix it and keep on driving-- the way these cars run and drive is well worth it.

anton_555
06-17-05, 03:35 PM
well, i sealed all the pan bolts and correctly torqued them and ........ its worse than ever..... so looks like its time to have a re-think. the oil is definately coming out of the joint between the oil manifold and the lowercrank case. As a last ditch resort i think im gonna unbolt all the pan bolts and see if i can get some gasket/sealer in there and hope that it seals up ok. failing this im gonna have to bite the bullit and sign a blank cheque for a garage to haul the engine out (i aint got the equipment). bear in mind that people with experiance on northstars or devilles over here is super rare.

jackc
06-17-05, 03:46 PM
Sorry to hear that. If you wind up tearing into it and need some stateside help getting parts, feel free to e-mail me.

anton_555
06-17-05, 04:17 PM
will do, thanks.

I'l keep it in mind because sourcing parts in the UK alone can some time be real pain!

Pjs
06-18-05, 01:20 PM
well, i sealed all the pan bolts and correctly torqued them and ........ its worse than ever..... so looks like its time to have a re-think. the oil is definately coming out of the joint between the oil manifold and the lowercrank case. As a last ditch resort i think im gonna unbolt all the pan bolts and see if i can get some gasket/sealer in there and hope that it seals up ok. failing this im gonna have to bite the bullit and sign a blank cheque for a garage to haul the engine out (i aint got the equipment). bear in mind that people with experiance on northstars or devilles over here is super rare.

I tried that too...it didn't work. If the leak is coming from the manifold loosening the pan bolts won't do anything as the manifold is held to the block through the 20 main bearing bolts and 13 perimeter bolts. The only way to get sealer in that joint is to pull the pan and take all the bolts out.