I wanted to know how well you thought cadillac (namely seville and deville) stacks up against the competition, that is, other luxuary cars. Here is a brief list of cars that i thought of off the top of my head, and all these are assumed to be latest model unless otherwise stated. There is going to be many cars with higher price, because i think that cadillac can compare with these

Lexus LS400/430
MB S class
Lincoln Town car
Audi A8
Jaguar XJ series
BMW 5/7 series
Infiniti Q45
Lexus LS 400/430

These are just a few that i have thought of, please include more if you think there are.

Overall, i think a cadillac is very comprable in the area of performance, although there are some where it is faster and some where it is slower. As far as comfort, I think that there is almost nothing better than a cadillac. Sure, there will be other "conveniences" (like power headrests and pointless stuff like that) in other cars, but overall comfort is second to none. The only thing i see them lacking in is build quality, although i have to say that they have improved over the past 5 years or so. I think that is what seperates them. Back in the 80s when cadillac made their "turn for the worst", I think that took a lot off their name. If you want to be known by what you drive and you have money, they see that in a lexus or BMW moreso than in a cadillac.

Hmm.. I don't really think Lexus is looked at as higher class than Cadillac.. BMW and Mercedes - certainly..

Lexus GS300/430 - Comparable to the STS
Lexus wins in performance - Cadillac wins in appearance - Lexus wins in reliability (Lexus beats EVERYONE in reliability) - Lexus may win slightly in comfort

MB S class - I don't know enough about this car

Lincoln Town car - Comparable to the DTS
Cadillac wins all

Audi A8 - I don't know enough about this car

Jaguar XJ series - I don't know enough about this car

BMW 5/7 series - Comparable to the STS/DTS
I still don't know how the new Caddy's feel, but I'll assume the BMWs handle much better. Comfort goes to Cadillac - Reliability probably goes to BWM - Appearance goes to Cadillac

Infiniti Q45 - Comparable to the DTS - I don't know enough about this car

Lexus LS 400/430 - Comparable to the DTS - I think handling goes to Cadillac - Appearance goes to Cadillac - Reliability goes to Lexus (always does) - Comfort may go to Lexus

I'm afraid that I disagree with some of the vehicles you list as being competition for Cadillac.
On price alone, you're way out on several cars. And price is one BIG point that is VERY important to luxury car owners. Many don't want to be seen as FROOGLE. And don't forget that when you have a few extra grand to play with on a car, you can start doing some of the things that add significantly to the cars' luxury "feel" and appearance. Example: replacing plastic wood with REAL wood, replacing leather "seating areas" with leather seats, deeper pile carpet, more sound-proofing, higher output engines, etc, etc.
Bearing that in mind, I think that out of your list, only a couple actually should be seen as TRUE competitors for the Cadillac.
1. Lincoln Town Car
a. Cadillac wins on performance.
b. Styling is a toss-up.
c. Lincoln wins on RWD
d. Lincoln wins on interior room
e. Build quality is also a toss-up
f. Lincoln wins on price.
g. Cadillac wins on technology.
2. Infiniti Q45
a. Infiniti wins on performance
b. Cadillac wins on price
c. Cadillac wins on MPG
d. Cadillac wins on interior room
e. Build quality is a toss-up
f. Infiniti wins on RWD
3. BMW "5" series (7-series is way out of Cadillac class)
a. BMW wins on virtually anything except interior room,
end of story
IMO, all the other cars listed are well out of reach for Cadillac Deville as far as competition. Yeah, there are SOME points and features that COULD be compared but in all fairness to Cadillac, they are either far beyond Deville on price-point, or in overall quality. Cadillac has established a niche with it's cars either due to content, or pricing (or both) and has narrowed it's "direct" competition by doing so.
Bottom line; I'm not saying that Cadillac CAN'T compete with these cars, I'm saying that they have CHOSEN not to. I think it's kind of a "chicken-shit" way of doing business. If you want to be taken seriously by the competition, stand toe-to-toe with them and prepare to be judged.

What about the Lexus GS430 and the STS? I thought they were competing... The LS430 is about $70k...

I have ridden in a BMW 7 series, and in fact my next door neighbor has one. I dont think that it is much more comfortable than the STS. I think the seats are kind of hard in the BMW, and the ride is kind of rough, even for a car that handles like it does. I think cadillac has some competition for them, and if they dont now if they get their act together they will

I've got to agree with Wes on one point here..The BMW's are about as comfortable to ride in as a park bench! They ride far to rough to me to really qualify as a luxury car. And the seats are so hard they might as well be made of wood. My other observation about them is they have an oddly sterile feel to them...They kind of lack warmth/personality. There's something missing that's hard to put you're finger on!

I agree with both of you. BMW's are absolutely uncomfortable.. But, the people who own them swear by them. They like the hard "indestructable" feel. It's totally and completely not me...

I agree, in a BMW you just cant get to get in the "groove". I mean what it really feels like is there is a little layer of foam that is really squishy and once you get past that its hard.

As far as the other cars, i think that if cadillac WANTED to be a highline luxuary car, they could. They have it all, styling, performance, and luxuary. Now if they could set their build standards higher, they would be world class. I think they get just enough to get by.

About some of those other cars, they were just a list that i came up with off the top of my head. I did no research whatsoever. I dont know anything about the Lexus GS430, so i cant make an opinion.

1. Lincoln Town Car
a. Cadillac wins on performance.
b. Styling is a toss-up.
c. Lincoln wins on RWD
d. Lincoln wins on interior room
e. Build quality is also a toss-up
f. Lincoln wins on price.
g. Cadillac wins on technology.
2. Infiniti Q45
a. Infiniti wins on performance
b. Cadillac wins on price
c. Cadillac wins on MPG
d. Cadillac wins on interior room
e. Build quality is a toss-up
f. Infiniti wins on RWD
3. BMW "5" series (7-series is way out of Cadillac class)
a. BMW wins on virtually anything except interior room,
end of story

Full size luxury
Lincoln town car
DTS wins in every category except interior room measurements

Infinity Q45
DTS wins price, comfort, mpg, ride quality, cust service, and reliability
Tied in technology
Q45 wins in performance

S class
DTS wins price, mpg, technology
Almost everything is close to each other
S class wins performance due to its v12 6l engine

7 series
DTS wins price, mpg, ride quality, comfort
Tied in technology and reliability
7 series wins performance, handling

mid size
5 series
STS wins price, mpg, ride quality, comfort, interior room.
5 series wins in performance (thanks to its 395hp v8 in m5 trim), handling

Okay, I wanna play, too. Here are my perceptions:

Lexus LS400/430--NO but it's not supposed to win this one.

MB S class--NO, but it's not supposed to win this one either.

Lincoln Town car--YES! not even close!

Audi A8--YES! but Audi is making great strides. Check again in 2007.

Jaguar XJ series--overall, YES! but those Jags are damn fine looking! But Ford will screw that up.

BMW 5/7 series--over the 5 year ownership experience, YES! the Bimmer ride SUCKS, but it's a beautiful thing at 130mph.

Infiniti Q45--NO, but it's not supposed to win this one either.

Acura 3.5 RL--YES! The RL is bland--a Japanese Buick LeSabre.

Here's the problem--depreciation. Perception has become reality. It's going to take Cadillac another 10 years like the past 10 years to erase the damage done by the 8-6-4 and HT4100, the Cimarron, and those nasty FWD DeVilles they put out from '85 to '91.

I'm with KC. Matter of fact, he must have read some of my old posts ;)
First of all, I cannot compare a FWD sedan to a RWD one in this class. The full-boat luxury, and ultra-luxury classes are the domain of the RWD cars. Surely you all know that to be true. Even Cadillac admits it, as evidenced by their shift BACK to RWD. All I can say is it's about time!
Although I think the BMW and Mercedes are far superior cars in more ways than one, I still don't really like them. They are as precise as a surgical tool, and have the personality of an operating room. This is what has ALWAYS seperated the American cars from the rest of the world. The rest of the world always does things in automotive design because it makes sense, it improves efficiency, or for some other totally LOGICAL reason. BORING!!!
Americans do things in their cars because it FEELS right, or it LOOKS right, or just for HELL of it!!
I mean, think about it guys, America's the only country that in this day and age would bring out the Excursion, or the Hummer, or suggest to put a 1000HP V16 in a car. I mean does ANY of what we do make sense? HELL NO!
So, can you REALLY compare American cars to the rest of the world? Probably not, we have a totally different idea of what luxury is. That's why American cars have such a tough time in comparison tests. Before the American car is even test driven, it's got to apologize for being American. And frankly I'm tired of it, we should stop trying to BE something we're not. American luxury cars keep trying to be more WORLDLY. That's just another way of saying you're ashamed of being American.

I LOVE MY AMERICAN MADE CADILLAC BECAUSE IT SCREAMS EXCESS. I LOVE IT BECAUSE I CAN CRUISE AROUND IN A SOFT LEATHER SEAT, SURROUNDED BY WHAT FEELS LIKE ACRES OF UPHOLSTERY, AND CD-QUALITY, SUB-WOOFER ENHANCED ROCK MUSIC, PULL UP TO A GAS PUMP, DUMP $40 OF HIGH-TEST IN HER, AND GO OUT AND PISS IT AWAY BY DOING SMOKIE BURN-OUTS AND DONUTS IF I WANT.
NOW DOES THAT MAKE SENSE? HELL NO, I DO IT, AND I LOVE IT, 'CAUSE IT'S FUN!!!!!!
END OF STORY!!!!!!!!

OK!......NEWS FLASH!

I agree with katshot on that last statement 100%!! He might not know it yet...But he just articulated why I will ALWAYS ride my HARLEY-DAVIDSONS!!

Way to go DUDE MAN!:banana:

I hate to split hairs, but Bugatti had a 1000 sae hp (987 bhp) W-16 in the Veyron.

KEY WORD.....HAD!

IMO, if I were to buy used, if i couldnt get a caddy, I would go import. Face it, up until about 98 there really werent any good american luxuary cars, with the exception of a lincoln MKVIII. On the other hand, MB, BMW and other imports have had this luxuary thing down for a long time. But I wouldnt buy one new. Why?, they're too expensive, not comfortable, and moreover NOT AMERICAN. What wouldnt you want to get american, is american not good enough, so you go GERMAN?????? That is pretty lame.

Besides, imports physically arent any better. Their name has just become more and more popular. If you want to look really rich, you dont drive a cadillac, you go get yourself a BENZ or bimmer. But you are really saying that, again, American isnt good enough.

Can you compare Cadillac and other imports, YES, but you have to take in mind that they are different. The germans have different philosophies when building cars, which is to have it perfect, and for it to be effecient, and TO MAKE SENSE. I know this is just reiterating what kat said, but I am going to say it again. American cars, if you really think about it, dont make sense. They have huge engines, guzzle gas, etc. BUT THIS IS THE WAY A CAR IS SUPPOSED TO BE. It isnt supposed to be perfect, and symetrical. It is supposed to feel RIGHT. In order for that to be achieved, there are going to have to be some wacky ideas.

I think ever since chrysler teamed up with MB, it has all gone downhill. Why, because they arent american. Same goes with the Catera, it is basically a MB 320 with the wreath. I konw the engine was made by opel, but who in america drives an opel?

Originally posted by Sal Collaziano
What about the Lexus GS430 and the STS? I thought they were competing... The LS430 is about $70k...


base price for a LS 430 is 55k..with option packages of 2k, 7k and 12k. The car is a great deal at 55k especially if you plan on keeping it a while.

As far as the other cars except for the lincoln and the Jag, I would have to say OVERALL they are all better than Deville/Seville. Some because they just cost a lot more, so they can offer more
S-class/A8...some because of perception Q45...some because of Reliability/resale LS430/GS430...and some because they are actually better...BMW 5, before you guys tell me im crazy keep in mind i did buy a Seville, although i will admit i will be looking for more out of my next car so hopefully cadillacs new products will really step it up. Oh and although i like infiniti, the fact that they are essentially a french company would cause me to never buy one..we dont need friends like the french..imo

Brett, this is like comparing apples and oranges. American cars are built with different mindsets than imports. So to say that imports are BETTER is incorrect, but DIFFERENT is correct. Like what was said earlier, imports are designed to be perfect, and to be machines. But american cars have that special warmth or something, something you cant get with a import. Sure, they may offer more features, but they are all things that you dont need, like power headrests, seats that bend in the middle, etc. All that is fine and great, but if it feels like your sitting in an operating room, that aint gonna cut it. You want a car that is going to be comfortable, and that you ENJOY DRIVING. Sure, BMW and lexus may have better features, but they will never have what american cars have....... CHARACTER

I find it odd that you would dismiss my argument because im comparing "apples to oranges" when it was YOU who posed the question Cadillac vs. ? in the first place, even odder is i agree with you that people who buy cadillacs and people who buy bmw's/MB's/Audi's/etc are very often looking for different things, although i disagree that a bmw has no character. maybe i missed the point of this thread but your original post compared these cars on their relative virtues...not on the amount of character each possessed...that being said my seville has power headrests and it is a useless option:)

well to be honest, the origional intent was to compare that, but after thinking about it they are only similar is that they are cars that possess engines. I think that maybe i phrased my post wrong.

I didnt mean that BMW doesnt have character, they do, but a different kind. They have a perfectionist appearance, and that is how the desigers wanted it to be. Power headrests are pointless options, but these "pointles" options should not be used when comparing cars. There are some features that cadillac has over all these other cars. Can i name one off hand, NO, but there is.

What I was trying to point out, is if cadillac gets their act together and starts trying to compete with these cars, THEY CAN! They have more potential than any other luxuary car, IMO. Granted, they have made great strides since the 80s, but they still have work to do. I think now, they are just doing what they can to get by, and they are definitely not making the best automobiles that they can.

The problem is that they HAVE been trying to compete with those imports. Unfortunately, Cadillac is NOT going to be able to beat them at the game they are best at, building a rock-solid, fast, great handling, smooth-ass car.
So why not just try to satisfy the American market and let one of the other GM brands that have product more in line with the European market go after it.
Oh and BTW, you forgot to mention "Night-Vision" as one of the most useless options.

I realize that they have been trying, but it doesnt seem like it. I think that they could. Granted, the wont be able to now, but if they can get their name re-established, then maybe in 5 years they will be able to. THEY need to be the trend setters, and not follow off everyone else. The new sevilles look very "bimmerish".

What other GM name is inline with the euro market moreso than cadillac?

As far as useless options, what about the air sac things in the seats of the sevilles.

Elwesso, to me it seems you are struggling to find a way for cadillac to win this competition. When all else fails you've turned to subjective analysis. the thing is cadillac is truly not better than most these cars, thats not to say that they cant be, they just currently aren't. I hold high hopes for cadillac myself, and for people that dont think you can change a bad image i suggest you look at Audi. Their bad image wasnt reliability or workmanship, instead their cars were blamed with the death of several people. How did they get respect back..by building quality cars and cadillac can do the same thing.

to me the the LS430 is what the cadillacs of the eighties should have evolved into...a roomy...quiet...reliable rwd v8 sedan..base price under 60k

Originally posted by elwesso
I realize that they have been trying, but it doesnt seem like it. I think that they could. Granted, the wont be able to now, but if they can get their name re-established, then maybe in 5 years they will be able to. THEY need to be the trend setters, and not follow off everyone else. The new sevilles look very "bimmerish".

What other GM name is inline with the euro market moreso than cadillac?

As far as useless options, what about the air sac things in the seats of the sevilles.

a lot of bmw fans think the new 5 looks like a pontiac

Originally posted by Katshot
The problem is that they HAVE been trying to compete with those imports. Unfortunately, Cadillac is NOT going to be able to beat them at the game they are best at, building a rock-solid, fast, great handling, smooth-ass car.
So why not just try to satisfy the American market and let one of the other GM brands that have product more in line with the European market go after it.
Oh and BTW, you forgot to mention "Night-Vision" as one of the most useless options.

Deville should chuck the night-vision and just go with HID headlights

Originally posted by elwesso
I realize that they have been trying, but it doesnt seem like it. I think that they could. Granted, the wont be able to now, but if they can get their name re-established, then maybe in 5 years they will be able to.

That is what I said, they need to be the ones taking the initiative. I agree to a certain extent that they arent as good as the imports, but will that stop me from buying caddy, ABSOLUTELY NOT. I have been searching for a caddy for about 3 months, and havent found one I like, but i am bound and determined to find one. Hell, there is a jaguar sitting down the road from me for 4500. I could pounce on that one (pun intended) and have a car, but I want to go caddy, if I can. I may get something else, but my ultimate goal is to get caddy w/northstar. Everything in that car is american.

I agree with the nightvision. How big is the little rectangle, about 3"x3"?

What GM brand can actually compete with the euro market? Not looks like, but COMPTETES

Originally posted by elwesso
What GM brand can actually compete with the euro market? Not looks like, but COMPTETES

Saab, Vauxhal and Opel can and do compete in the Euro market.

But there is no American GM nameplate that can compete in Europe at this time.

The only new Cadillac I would consider purchasing, is the CTS-V. I would likely wait till the second year for GM to fix any problems left undone in their rush to market. I would probably even wait till the 3rd year, and purchase a used 2nd year model so I don't take the huge depreciation that all Cadillac suffer from.

I was origionally referring to GM nameplates. For that matter, i dont hink taht there is any AMERICAN brand that really competes with the euro market.

BTW, when i think of saab, vauxhal, and opel, they are euro with GM nameplate, they really arent AMERICAN.

Its the same way with ford and jaguar.......

Originally posted by elwesso
I was origionally referring to GM nameplates. For that matter, i dont hink taht there is any AMERICAN brand that really competes with the euro market.

BTW, when i think of saab, vauxhal, and opel, they are euro with GM nameplate, they really arent AMERICAN.

Its the same way with ford and jaguar.......


There is no American car maker that can compete in Europe with American products. That's why Ford and GM purchased European nameplates many, many years ago.

On the other hand, there are many European name plates that can't compete here and don't even try.

Yes, like pegeuot (sp?), fiat, and all those other euro trash. I suppose it all evens out.

I agree most of the euro cars I hope never make it here many of them are just 2003 Yugos. Peugeot and Opel and those type cars have their own market and have it flooded over there just as we have our el cheepo cars here festiva, fiesta, geo, omni.

again, it all evens out. No one over in europe would buy a geo.

yep Im thought about buying a M series over in Gremany and having it shipped back. Many many military guys have done this. BMWs and Mercedes over there are much cheaper and even after shipping you are still way ahead compared to buying one here.

Yeah, but arent all the guages metric and right hand drive??

nope not every one there drives on the wrong side of the road :D Guages are an easy fix if you need to do it at all.

ok, i guess you have your grounds covered. Would you go over to germany, or buy one over the internet?

Can you speak german???? :D

many gremans speak engilsh. I'd go over to Germany.

Originally posted by elwesso
Yeah, but arent all the guages metric and right hand drive??


MB,BMW and Audi among others have European delivery programs that can save you alot of money. Check out their websites its pretty cool...you take delivery of your US spec car in germany and drive around europe for a few days then drop your car off and they ship it back to the us...you can save almost enough money to make the trip free and dont worry insurance is part of the deal...check out MB's program:

http://www.mbusa.com/brand/container.jsp?/edp/index.jsp

great link. thanks.

Why wouldnt everyone do this, cheaper car and a trip to europe?

they don't know about it! and most impulse buy and have to take it right off the lot and dont want to wait for it to ake a boat ride. same reason people don't order cars

Originally posted by elwesso
Why wouldnt everyone do this, cheaper car and a trip to europe?

ive talked to a couple people that have done it and although you can do it cheap, i guess depending on what you do in europe it can get pricey. Some of the itineraries are pretty expensive, but if you made your own arrangements with cheaper hotels and such you can get it down where the trip would be free, plus getting to take your new car on the autobahn would be pretty cool

Originally posted by Dead Sled
they don't know about it! and most impulse buy and have to take it right off the lot and dont want to wait for it to ake a boat ride. same reason people don't order cars


and theres another reason

I can hitch a ride on a space available military flight to germany hitch a ride to a dealer or used car dealer. then over to Mugen to make the bimmer go fast cheaper than I can over here then ship it back hop back on a plane then wait for my car

question answered.

I'd love to take a blast down the Autobahn too

That would be awesome, that is why they make the 750iL

Id go for a 3 series I like the smaller car even though the 7 series will scoot. mabey I'll settle for an M5 tricked out by Mugen. I like spending money I don't have :D

Unfortunately, creditors dont like that too much. If they did, the world would be much happier :D

they love it they keep wanting to give me more and more. some reason they want it back :rolleyes:

exactly. I dont get it ;)

I once took a M3 for a test drive and teh indian salesman was in the back seat i thought he was about to mess himself when i hit 140 :D and was powersliding around corners. doin tripple didgits and I looks down trying to put the shift knob back on had him worried :D every other shift he knob poped off :D poor guy

Really, sounds you dont mind talking with the uniformed officers in crown vics?? Although in Iowa, that isnt too much of a factor!

they gotta catch me first :D Here in IA the break prusuit at 100 mph and they don't have high speed driving traing like most other states

It sounds just too easy, especially if your in a test car!!!!!!

that or a hearse they don't have the balls to pull one of them over :D

True, if I were a cop I wouldnt pull over a hearse, that would be way to creapy!!!

For that matter, i wouldnt want to be in the back of a hearse, thinking about how many dead people were back there. IDK, I would get over it really fast, but still for that moment it would be weird. It prolly is great for hauling crap around!

it is great!

Originally posted by Dead Sled
I'll settle for an M5 tricked out by Mugen.

Isn't Mugen Honda's son? Don't they tune Honda's, as well as build F1 engines?

Do you mean Brabus? Or Alpina? Or...?

DOH yeah your right now that I think about it :rolleyes:

Hartge was what I was thinking

I think you are changing your mind because mugen may have something to do with RICERS.

That should be a forbidden word here, lets referr to it as the "R" word!!!!

http://www.hartge.de/html/e46m3uk.html

this is what I want!

http://www.hartge.de/html/m5uk.html

or this

SSWWEETT!!

Would you trade in the dead sled for that??

I don't trade cars I just keep getting more. :D Mabey once i get my own business going I'll get one and deduct it off my taxes :D

Good plan.....

one of my teachers in middle school had about 10 cars, all were bought for less than 1000 dollars. That way, if it stopped running, he would just recycle them and the the money for the metal!

750iL?!
Try a 760Li
6.0 liter V-12 = 438bhp/444lb.-ft.
All this equals 0-60 in less than 6 sec.
Now THAT'S a PROPER road car ;)

I forgot about the 760. I am sorry, I dont stay on top of the BMW lineup :D

But I agree, that could wipe any cad out there, stock vs stock. In america, it doesnt really pay to have that much power, except for bragging rights, but with the autobahn, i would get the most poweri could get!!!

Originally posted by Katshot
750iL?!
Try a 760Li
6.0 liter V-12 = 438bhp/444lb.-ft.
All this equals 0-60 in less than 6 sec.
Now THAT'S a PROPER road car ;)

from one of our other thread
BMW
3 series
2.5 i6(184hp/175tq), 3.0 i6(225hp/214tq), 3.2 i6(m3)(333hp/262tq)

5 series
2.5 i6(184hp/175tq), 3.0 i6(225hp/214tq), 4.0 v8(290hp/324tq), 4.9 v8(m5)(394hp/368tq)

7 series
4.4 v8(325hp/330tq), 6.0 v12(438hp/444tq)

MB
c class
supercharged 1.8 i4(189hp/192tq), 2.6 v6(168hp/177tq), 3.2 v6(215hp/221tq), supercharged 3.2 v6(c32 amg)(349hp/332tq)

e class
3.2 v6(221hp/232tq), 5.0 v8(302hp/339tq)

s class
4.3 v8(275hp/295tq), 5.0 v8(302hp/339tq), 5.5 v12(493hp/590tq), supercharged 5.5 v8(s55 amg)(493hp/516tq)
check out mb's 5.5l v12

I have of it, but dont know anything about it. Care to enlighten us???

bmw's 6.0l v12
438hp
444ftlb

v

mb's 5.5l v12
493hp
590ftlb

thats weird, smaller engine, more power and torque.

It prolly has an insane compression ratio or something

lol
bmw's 6.0l v12 - 11.3

mb's 5.5l v12 - 9.0

mb's v12 is intercooled twinturbocharged

ok, well that explains it. if BMWs was intercooled twinturbo, it would be much higher.

I got a thing for the smaller 3 and 5 series cars I also thing the Z3 Coupe is very cool

Z3, cool car, but wouldnt want to drive one too often, because if i got in a wreck in that i would be toast. Just like a mazda mitata

I dunno I think its a much safer car than a miata

why are we talking about z3 when z4 is out :D

I........ Dont............. Know

Originally posted by Dead Sled
I also thing the Z3 Coupe is very cool

Yea, the M version of that Z3 Coupe is one cool car. It just looks like it supposed to be driven hard and fast.

Thats the way I like 'em

me too, me too!@!

While Im that close to Germany I'm goina find out how much I can get a Hartge M3 for and get it back stateside

get the euro e36 m3.
When you bring it back you can send it to aa to get the turbo work done.

I want to shoot for an E46 M3 full boogie Hartge :D lets see if I can get that insured :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Dead Sled
I want to shoot for an E46 M3 full boogie Hartge :D lets see if I can get that insured :rolleyes:

bah euro e36 m3 all the way.

I liked the E36 untill 99 when the E46 came out :D

euro e36 m3 is not the same as the ones we got here in us.

321hp v. 240hp
6sp v. 5sp

http://www.hartge.de/html/e46m3uk.html

E46 Hartge :D

bah
euro e36 with aa m3 turbo kit

0-60mph: 4.4 sec, 0-100mph: 9.8 sec
1/4 mile: 12.55 @ 113mph
above number is ran with the us version.

I still like the 5.0 V8 mabey get a suoercharger I'd love teh V12 wedged in there too

why not just get a m5 instead?

I like the smaller 3 series the 5s always seemed heavier and slower to me

i got a better idea. Get the old m3s with 4 banger and then drop a ls6 in there(this has been done).

nah Im not a big fan of the E30s E46 all the way :D

Go for it dude!!! Pick one up for me while your there :D

One day when Im not poor :D

let me know when that happens :D

you guys think an M3 is a sports car or no? this is related to another thread where we're having trouble agreeing

M3s will scoot This Hartge M3 is an M3 with M5 motor and lots of other tweaks. I can't even tell what a sports car is any more. I know it isn't a supercar like a Lamborghini or McLaren F1 :cool: (I want one of those). But sports car I could see it

i agree mainly because it goes like a vette, corners like a vette, brakes like a vette, has a backseat like a stang or 911 so i dont know what else to call it if not a sports car. someone suggested sports coupe but that pretty much seems like the same thing

I just call it FUN :D

i have one question for you then. Do you consider 3 series as a sports car? i consider m roadster as a sports car not m3.

I would consider it a "sports type car". sports car you think performance, and the 3 series doesnt have that, stock that is. IMO

I dunno I think most bimmers are sports sedans then there are Z3s and Z8s. there isn't much of a clear line that defines a a really nice car that happens to be fast and a sports car

Originally posted by Devil_concours
i have one question for you then. Do you consider 3 series as a sports car? i consider m roadster as a sports car not m3.


now 3-series i would agree is not a sports car, but M3 i think is....either way i think it is hard to define

you know its probably me, i see something like a Z3 and I think GT...like a nice miata..fun in the turns but no power...tome a "sports car" has to have power...maybe you can change my mind devil, but i want to know why to you the M3 is not a sports car, you said before it was never meant to be, but im wondering why you think its not a sports car, maybe im looking at this the wrong way or something.

yes, please enlighten us....

We're waiting....

Hey deadsled, you DEAD over there!!!!

what? there was a question directed in my direction?

He had to go get something to eat!LOL,LOL, Inside joke!

:D

Hey while were at it, KC, care to enlighten us.

2003 Automotive News market classifications

Upscale cars
Near luxury
Acura CL
Acura TL
Audi A6/S6
BMW 3 series
Buick Park Avenue
Cadillac CTS
Chrysler 300M
Chrysler Pacifica
Infiniti FX45
Infiniti I35
Infiniti G35
Jaguar X-type
Lexus ES 300
Lexus IS 300/Sport Cross
Lincoln LS
Mercedes C class
Nissan Murano
Oldsmobile Aurora
Saab 9-5
Volvo Cross Country
Volvo 70 series
Volvo 80 series

Luxury
Acura RL
Audi allroad
Audi A8/S8
BMW 5 series
BMW 7 series
BMW M3
Cadillac DeVille
Cadillac Seville
Infiniti Q45
Infiniti M45
Jaguar S-type
Jaguar XJ
Lexus GS 300
Lexus GS 430
Lexus LS 430
Lexus SC 430
Lincoln Continental
Lincoln Town Car
Mercedes CLK
Mercedes E class
Mercedes S-class
Volkswagen Phaeton

Premium
Bentley all models
Maybach all models (2004)
Mercedes CL
Rolls-Royce all models

Sporty cars
Touring
Ford Mustang
Mazda Miata
Mazda RX8 (2004)
Mini Cooper
Mitsubishi Eclipse
Nissan 350Z
Pontiac GTO (2004)
Toyota Celica
Toyota MR2 Spyder
Volkswagen Cabrio

Lower Premium
Audi TT
BMW Z4
Chrysler Crossfire (2004)
Ford Thunderbird
Honda S2000

Upper Premium
Cadillac XLR (2004)
Chevrolet Corvette
Jaguar XK
Mercedes SLK
Porsche 911
Porsche Boxster

Exotic
Acura NSX
Aston Martin all models
BMW Z8
Dodge Viper
Ferrari all models
Ford GT (2004)
Lamborghini Murcielago
Lotus Esprit
Mercedes SL

You'll have to go to the admin. area to see what I'm laughing at! He started something he'll probably regret! Lol,Lol!!

Main Entry: sports car
Function: noun
Date: 1928
: a low small usually 2-passenger automobile designed for quick response, easy maneuverability, and high-speed driving

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary

so hotrod...it seems your posts are in conflict...the M3 fits the definition but it wasnt in the auto news market classification under sporty...and to KC no fair on the inside jokes especially when im the only one on here who cant see it

It will make it out form there and spread some time :D

Originally posted by Brett
the M3 fits the definition but it wasnt in the auto news market classification under sporty

Actually, the M3 can be considered many things, but low certainly isn't one of them. :D

So since it's a 5 seater and it's not low, it's not a sports car in the true sense of the word.

I dont think of it as a sports car because of the back seat

Originally posted by Dead Sled
I dont think of it as a sports car because of the back seat

A sports car might have a jump seat, Porsche has since 1948. But when it has a true rear seat, it ceases to be a true sports car.

Look at the values of the 1960's 2+2 Ferrari's. Why do they stay so low, while the two seaters command top dollar? They weren't 'sports cars'. They were GT's. Grand Tourers.

But like I said earlier, the definitions are starting to get blurred.

(No one had the Phaeton answer huh?)

your definition included the word "usually" when it refered to backseats and although i have no numbers my guess is an M3 is not much higher off the ground than a stang or camaro...the fact is as ive said a hundred times in two different threads it is hard to define, but hotrod you still must insist im wrong, even though you know there are examples of non-low 2+2 sports cars all over the place you even brought up a ferrari 2 posts later....i believe its a sports car you dont lets leave it at that...i can counter all your arguments and you can counter all mine and when devil shows up later he'll say im wrong too, but either way i still believe its a sports car

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,3385266%255E13232,00.html


im moving to australia:D

Originally posted by HotRodSaint
But like I said earlier, the definitions are starting to get blurred.

So the Saint and the Devil both say your wrong? Now what are you going to do? :halo:

We can agree to disgree.

Automotive News doesn't even say sports car, it says sporty car. I would not have placed the Mustang on that list and left the M3 off.

Soon, station wagon will have been redefined. SUV already is.

It's certainly the golden age of the automobile.

http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/mostwanted/2002/47596/article.html

woo hoo edmunds agrees with me i can stay in the US...didnt realize the saint/devil thing i guess im screwed either way..oh well ive had the flu all week i probably wont remember any of this anyway

as far as your phaeton question the only thing i could dig up was that a phaeton should have a removable or foldable top

Hell this alone was enuff to make me want to move down there!!!
6-speed with the LS1 V8 :worship:

Originally posted by Brett
woo hoo edmunds agrees with me i can stay in the US...

Yea, but Edmunds lists the Corvette and Porsche as a Coupe! And certainly you have to at least agree the the Mini isn't a coupe?!

Besides, I've been to Australia and I wouldn't be looking for a reason to stay here if I could move there. ;)

Originally posted by Brett
as far as your phaeton question the only thing i could dig up was that a phaeton should have a removable or foldable top

:D :D :D :D :D

edmunds also has 13 wagons under "sport" not that i was gonna bring that up either

Originally posted by Mad'lac
Hell this alone was enuff to make me want to move down there!!!
6-speed with the LS1 V8 :worship:

It should be an El Camino!! Whats keeping Chevrolet from offering this now? Instead they bring us a 42,000 SSR. Why not this at 22,000?

Well with the way Lutz is shaking up GM right now.... I wouldn't be suprise that it would come here in a few years.

ahhh yes we can agree, the SSR makes no sense at 42k...its that thinking that worries me, like the CTS-V will come out at 65k or something

Looks real nice in red too!!!

ok that didn't work

Ausies always had some cool cars. They had retangular headlights way before we did (1978) and they mad some cool looking cars

m3 is nothing but a 3 series with engine and suspension. According to you, if the cadillac came out with an sts that can handle well and have gobs of power then it will be considered a sports car when in fact it's merely a luxury sedan tune for some more fun. What about Audi RS6 station wagon? It handles like a dream and it has 450hp from factory, is that a sports car or a sporty car?
I stand by my statement that M3 isn't a sports car but m roadster/coupe is

I agree the line is so blured that its hard to seperate one from another. I guess I don't know. its kinda like music what fits into what catagory

Originally posted by Brett
...and to KC no fair on the inside jokes especially when im the only one on here who can't see it

Sorry about that! But it was way too ugly for public consumption!:D

yeah it was on the hairy side :D lol ;)

an article from road and track that asks the same question we've been asking:


http://www.roadandtrack.com/reviews/roadtests/ArticleDisplay.asp?ArticleID=141&page=1

Ugly ain't the word for it!!!!! Something about questioning someone's manhood.........oh the horror.........the horror.......

Originally posted by Dead Sled
I dont think of it as a sports car because I'm always in the back seat



????????:D

Originally posted by Brett
an article from road and track that asks the same question we've been asking:


http://www.roadandtrack.com/reviews/roadtests/ArticleDisplay.asp?ArticleID=141&page=1

weren't they the one that declared m3 as the winner because it had backseats and z06 won every single test conducted(title of the article was about performance:rolleyes: ).
Anyways, I wonder if they can make the same comparison with the newer z06, where the new z06 produces more power in a lighter form

Originally posted by Devil_concours
weren't they the one that declared m3 as the winner because it had backseats and z06 won every single test conducted(title of the article was about performance:rolleyes: ).
Anyways, I wonder if they can make the same comparison with the newer z06, where the new z06 produces more power in a lighter form

I think the problem/issue is that the M3 has no competition in the Sport Coupe category. Plus, no one in mid-life crisis is thinking that a sport coupe will help them look better with the girlies. So they have to call it a 'sports car' to get the old guys interested!

I think the Mustang Cobra and the Pontiac GTO, at least technically, are the M3's real competion.

Originally posted by HotRodSaint
I think the problem/issue is that the M3 has no competition in the Sport Coupe category. Plus, no one in mid-life crisis is thinking that a sport coupe will help them look better with the girlies. So they have to call it a 'sports car' to get the old guys interested!

I think the Mustang Cobra and the Pontiac GTO, at least technically, are the M3's real competion.

m3s do have competition from its nearest rival audi. It's called rs4 and it has a 380hp engine under the hood irc.

Originally posted by Devil_concours
m3s do have competition from its nearest rival audi. It's called rs4 and it has a 380hp engine under the hood irc.

Except it is a sedan and not a coupe. That's why I prefaced my comment with 'technically'.

Besides, they don't offer the RS4 in the US according to Audi's site. At least not yet. Just the RS6.

If we start including car's not offered here, then there is a few more 'coupes' to look at.

Here is a pic of the Red UTE SS

those are cool. That woulld be a good car to cruise around in the big city!

They're coming guys. That's for sure. Holden has them in the pipe and I'm betting Lutz is already figuring out which brand will get the first version of it. I'm betting on Chevy but it MAY be Pontiac.

I think it should be a Chev

Chevy already has the S10, pontiac doesnt have a good truck like auto.

yeah but this is a car based truck like the elky. the more I talk the more I want

Yes, true. I suffer the same fate!!!

Originally posted by Devil_concours
m3s do have competition from its nearest rival audi. It's called rs4 and it has a 380hp engine under the hood irc.

The newest competition from Audi is the new S4 which has a 340 (I think) hp 4.2 L V-8 crammed in and has a similar power to weight ratio to the M3. It too is a sedan though, but a mighty nice one.

Sorry guys,

I'm not to impressed with the new elkie. I cut my teeth on a 1969 SS and those look more like a Suburu Brat to me.

if they bring that ute here it will cause many traffic accidents due to people laughing when they see it on the road

I think it is a modernized version of the elkie. At first glance, I didnt like it. But after i looked at it from a few different angles and colors, it is a cool car. Would I buy it? Maybe, not sure.

They won't be laughing when that LS1 leaves them choking on the smoke from burning rubber.

Originally posted by Mad'lac
They won't be laughing when that LS1 leaves them choking on the smoke from burning rubber.


its like when a heavily modified mustang blew away my corvette a few years ago, they guy may have beat me, but i still had the vette and he was driving a mustang....that ute might be fast but its damn ugly....imho

it all depends on the person. I like how it looks. Of course I'll be the first to say it won't win a beauty contest but for that I'd get a Lambo. Right after I win the lotto.

Originally posted by Allante North *
Sorry guys,

I'm not to impressed with the new elkie. I cut my teeth on a 1969 SS and those look more like a Suburu Brat to me.

I TOTALLY agree with you on that! YUK!

well i think that a 1992 Eldo is the best car of all!!! :bouncy: :bouncy: :bouncy:

Where did this part of the forum come to??? well i missed a lot.

I don't know today's performance rating and handeling, but in the early 90's when I was a Lexus/Cadillac tech, there was no comparison between the Seville and the LS 400. Simply, the Seville would chew it up and spit it out. The LS 400 defense was that maybe so, but once you start to hit 100 to 110, it's . . . Yeah, right. This the United States! Are we reaching? Click! I have never been there, but I have a good imagination, as to square mile per person. They cranking it past 100 on the streets of Toyko?

I'm at a loss as to why the STS's power head rest is a waste. I'm exclusive driver; even so, I have a good imagination. There is driver # 1, me, and driver # 2, the key stashed off in a drawer. Let's say that dirver one is 6'3" and driver 2 is 5'1". The head rest is a safety feature to reduce the chance of whiplash in the advent of a collision. If the poistion isn't set correctly, it can cause more personal injury than without a head rest. Because driver one and two have different settings for the mirrors, streeing wheel, seat postion and head rest settings, that may be the reaon for the ulesless design that Cadillac engineers had in mind when making an electric headrest. If you want ulsless to foucs on useless gadgets, take a look at the Aruora. The whole car is useless gadget.

Oh, one thing that I caught out of the corner of my aged eyes--the comment about useless night vision. I don't have night vision, and I don't think it was available on the 01 STS. The thing is that I have looked through the civilian version of night vision viewers. Even though it's low grade to the military version, it's incredible. Obviously, you are sill at the point, whereby the rods and cones haven't stated to deteroirate. Some people don't suffer from it. For lots of people, however, it starts to kick in about age 40. Yeah, I remember the good ol days when I would have made such a comment.

Obviulsy, you don't keep up on the evolving automtoive history. It was said that tail lights and directionals were useless gadgets, the same with, heaters, automatic transmissions, power brakes, power steering, and A/C. I remember in Automechanics I & II 1974-76, 4 wheel disc brakes were useless gadgets. Mark my words: by 2010 night vision will be standard equipment in all cars.