: When will the Chinese Buy Ford and GM?



Ralph
05-25-05, 11:53 PM
This got my attention, even though I know it's not a big deal. Yet.

"Ford Gets China Engine Approval

Ford will be enjoining a new venture in China to build engines, with a production startup of 2007 in the works, the company announced on Wednesday. Ford, in the midst of spending $1 billion in the Chinese market, will partner with Mazda and Chinese firm Changan Automobile to build the plant and assemble up to 400,000 engines yearly. The engines will be used in vehicles assembled in a plant next door to the newly announced powerplant facility."

http://www.thecarconnection.com/Industry/Daily_Edition/Daily_Edition_May_26_2005.S173.A8667.html


So here's an idea: Since it looks like the Chinese car companies are going to follow the Japanese and Koreans, how long will it be before they really become a force?

I'm sure they'll start selling their cars in North America very, very soon. At first the models will be junk, but they'll be way cheaper than anything else on the market.

Then they'll start copying the Japanese and Korean designs and their cars will improve.

Finally, just like Toyota or Hyundai before them, their cars will compete with the best in the world. This seems inevitable. After all, at the rate the Chinese economy is exploding, it won't be long before the number of cars purchased in that market will be greater than in the US.

http://www.autoindex.org/makelist.plt?cntr=15&letter=All

At their current share prices, many of the hungry, acquisitive Chinese car corporations could probably buy GM with their coffee money, and still have change to buy Ford too. They'd get all the researchers, the plants, and thousands of dealers to sell their cars. Plus the already established brands, which is something they don't have yet.

Will the 3rd generation CTS be built in Shanghai?

Stoneage_Caddy
05-26-05, 12:15 AM
if the guy that brought us subaru and yugo is sucessful we willbe seeing cars in a few years on these shores from china ...

Ive got a chinese motorcycle ...

as for me owning a chinese car ....well it would be nice to drive something disposeable to keep miles off good cars like my cadillac ...or a cavailer ...LOL

DopeStar 156
05-26-05, 01:25 AM
I voted for the last one. I can guess, but I prolly won't be right....

BeelzeBob
05-26-05, 02:19 AM
if the guy that brought us subaru and yugo is sucessful we willbe seeing cars in a few years on these shores from china ...

The company name will be (if it happens) "Chery".

powerglide
05-26-05, 06:21 AM
Sure, why not......almost everything else I own is made in China.

Sandy
05-26-05, 09:11 AM
I will only buy GM, Ford or Chrysler cars made in the USA or Canada. I will not buy their cars made in Mexico. I will buy no other brand of car. Ever.

Why people feel the absolute need to critique me on these beliefs is way beyond my comprehension, since they don't take kindly to when I criticize their opinions...but are V-8 fast to jump on me!

Playdrv4me
05-26-05, 10:55 AM
I will only buy GM, Ford or Chrysler cars made in the USA or Canada. I will not buy their cars made in Mexico. I will buy no other brand of car. Ever.

Why people feel the absolute need to critique me on these beliefs is way beyond my comprehension, since they don't take kindly to when I criticize their opinions...but are V-8 fast to jump on me!

I dont think theres anything wrong with that at all, in fact its very respectable.

I think the opposite happens almost as much, I get flack for liking cars from Europe or Japan frequently.

El Dobro
05-26-05, 11:01 AM
The 3.4 motor in the Equinox is supposedly assembled in China.

Elvis
05-26-05, 12:06 PM
The 3.4 motor in the Equinox is supposedly assembled in China.

:yup:

That's one of the two main reasons I dropped that vehicle from my list. There have been some problems reported, so I don't think China has the quality thing under control like Japan does. I'm sure it won't take but another ten years.

Vesicant
05-26-05, 01:23 PM
The 3.4 motor in the Equinox is supposedly assembled in China.

Should be able to swap in the ameri-canadian version then... or take the internals. They use powdered steel connecting rods on the chinese version!!!

JimHare
05-26-05, 01:33 PM
I bought a Chinese car once...half an hour later, I wanted to buy one again.... :)

Elvis
05-26-05, 01:40 PM
<rim shot>

Ralph
05-26-05, 05:57 PM
I bought a Chinese car once...half an hour later, I wanted to buy one again.... :)

LOL!!!

I also think it will be less than 10 years before they become a force.

I've never owned anything other than a Ford, GM or Chrysler, so I don't think I would start now.

DopeStar 156
05-26-05, 10:56 PM
I will only buy GM, Ford or Chrysler cars made in the USA or Canada. I will not buy their cars made in Mexico. I will buy no other brand of car. Ever.

Why people feel the absolute need to critique me on these beliefs is way beyond my comprehension, since they don't take kindly to when I criticize their opinions...but are V-8 fast to jump on me!
Haha I'm like that too. I really don;t like import cars just because I've had many bad experiences with imports. I will really only buy an american car, especially GM because of the habit of their cars running extremely well in their older age. Fords don't age well, I learned that, but they still make some great cars. Chrysler I really don't like too much, my dad had a bad experience with a Plymouth that was brand new. Our 89 Suburban provided 11 years of loyal service before we let it go. My grandfather's 84 Buick still runs strong along with my Fleetwood being 16 years old. My grandfather always bought GM, mostly Oldsmobile. My family tends to hold onto a GM car longer than any other company.

Ralph
05-27-05, 12:45 AM
Haha I'm like that too. I really don;t like import cars just because I've had many bad experiences with imports. I will really only buy an american car, especially GM because of the habit of their cars running extremely well in their older age. Fords don't age well, I learned that, but they still make some great cars. Chrysler I really don't like too much, my dad had a bad experience with a Plymouth that was brand new. Our 89 Suburban provided 11 years of loyal service before we let it go. My grandfather's 84 Buick still runs strong along with my Fleetwood being 16 years old. My grandfather always bought GM, mostly Oldsmobile. My family tends to hold onto a GM car longer than any other company.

Good points! All our GM cars have held up VERY well including our 1980 Pontiac Phoenix coupe with not a rattle or loose bolt even after 250,000 kms! And these cars were written off as lemons!?

TomDeville
05-27-05, 01:19 AM
G.M. Rules!

Sandy I always agree with
you; but, as you are keenly aware,
only 110% of the time.
I know that you grow frustrated
when apart from Randy W. and a
few notable other awesome American
Men, it is consistently You and My fellow
Canadian Ralph (although I live closer
to you than him), who assert the merits
of U.S. protectionism. Why don't more of
my American friends have Sandy's back?

This is a concern for the future. Moreover,
the reality is Red China is slowly taking over
the world. The Berlin Wall fell, not the Great
Wall of China. The automobile sector is part
of their domination scheme;but, there will be
other Red China priorities met in advance of the
domination of the auto sector, examples of which
are already happening around us ( ie. property).
How many Cities and Towns have more than one
Chinatown now, for example? ...What country has
the largest population on earth?.. I don't blame the
Chinese, don't get me wrong. When your opponent
presents as weak and is prepared to yield to you,
one cannot be blamed for dominating them.

Accordingly, American protectionism must be a priority!
The Japanese have written the blueprint,
and are conducting themselves like masters.
The most stolen car in my region is Korean.
I do not care if it was assembled or even
built in North America... the profits go elsewhere...
the local guy in Tennessee or Ontario who gets
a Japanese paycheck is not worth a cornerstone
industry capitulating to foreign masters.

Yours very truly,


TomDeville :coolgleam
:coolgleam

DopeStar 156
05-27-05, 01:55 AM
G.M. Rules!

Sandy I always agree with
you; but, as you are keenly aware,
only 110% of the time.
I know that you grow frustrated
when apart from Randy W. and a
few notable other awesome American
Men, it is consistently You and My fellow
Canadian Ralph (although I live closer
to you than him), who assert the merits
of U.S. protectionism. Why don't more of
my American friends have Sandy's back?

This is a concern for the future. Moreover,
the reality is Red China is slowly taking over
the world. The Berlin Wall fell, not the Great
Wall of China. The automobile sector is part
of their domination scheme;but, there will be
other Red China priorities met in advance of the
domination of the auto sector, examples of which
are already happening around us ( ie. property).
How many Cities and Towns have more than one
Chinatown now, for example? ...What country has
the largest population on earth?.. I don't blame the
Chinese, don't get me wrong. When your opponent
presents as weak and is prepared to yield to you,
one cannot be blamed for dominating them.

Accordingly, American protectionism must be a priority!
The Japanese have written the blueprint,
and are conducting themselves like masters.
The most stolen car in my region is Korean.
I do not care if it was assembled or even
built in North America... the profits go elsewhere...
the local guy in Tennessee or Ontario who gets
a Japanese paycheck is not worth a cornerstone
industry capitulating to foreign masters.

Yours very truly,


TomDeville :coolgleam
:coolgleam
Yeah that!

Ralph
05-27-05, 05:16 PM
I notice many people say they will buy the "better quality car" when they make one well lately Cadillac was second only to Lexus and many here still bought Infinity, or Acura, Benz, etc. or kept their remaining. I'm not being judgemental or anything, just simply what I've observed and it's certainly their choice. This just proves there really isn't anymore "Brand Loyality" IMO. It's interesting that people here have had so many different types of cars because then we can compare, etc. and discuss likes and dislikes. However, I think it's time more people start to look closer to home for their next vehicle because the dollar will sink even worse when the Chinese "invade," and invade they will.

People must consider that something negative might happen when a country purchases more Japanese cars over their own. At least consider it!

Why is it that Canadians purchase over 50% of American cars and Americans prefer the likes of Toyota, etc.?

Playdrv4me
05-27-05, 05:34 PM
I would probably never buy a Chinese made car, but not because they wont be any good. The Koreans have proven with Hyundai, who is now building cars here, that they can take a brand from the depths of disaster (their first car was a Mitsubishi produced vehicle ironically) to a very respectable status. And its not just because of their outstanding warranty program, the cars themselves are of very good quality and hold up quite well over time and much better in comparison to the Hyundai's of just 7 or 8 years ago.

Still, Ive decided to pretty much stick with the American's and the Germans from now on. I think they compliment eachother very well, and if you cant find something you like made by one, the other will most certainly have it. Japanese and Korean cars just dont have any real character or soul.

Ralph
05-27-05, 05:38 PM
Japanese and Korean cars just dont have any real character or soul.

I agree, and it's likely because they just copied what everyone else did, and built on that.

I wonder if most people really keep a car long enough nowadays to take advantage of an 8 or 10 year warrenty? I doubt it, but I don't think I would base my car buying decision on warrenty length because the cars that usually offer those lengthy warrenty coverage are mundane at best. (thinking of the smaller Korean brands)

I couldn't think of owning a Chinese car at this point, sorry Sir Stoney. :sneaky:

slk230mb
05-27-05, 06:48 PM
From 1985-2000 my dad was a Mercedes Benz Man. He switched to GM for their trucks. My Deville was courtesy of a lease for my visually impaired grandmother and my truck was going to be GM all the way according to my dad. Mom moved to Lexus in 1994, after 3 Cadillac's which she loved, but wanted something smaller. I wouldn't hesitate to by a Toyota product if I needed the gas mileage and minimal maintenance. I'll be GM all they way cause I plan on owning my future cars for a long time.

Ralph
05-28-05, 05:12 AM
Jerry Flint just wrote this article about Chinese car companies.

"If you want to see hypocrisy in action, look at some of the auto manufacturers who talk of building cars in China for export to other industrial nations but not to their own.

Perhaps General Motors should announce it will build a car in China for export but only to Japan, hundreds and thousands of them, very low priced. See how they like it."

http://www.forbes.com/columnists/business/global/2005/0606/035.html

Sandy
05-28-05, 10:09 AM
The answer to all of this is so simple, yet so elusive to all.

Human nature is short-sighted, especially in the land-of-plenty.

Let's take a Toyota Camry, for an example. Follow along with me & the bouncing ball. It's made in America, using an American Work Force, BUT the factory management (Read: Big wage earners) are mostly Japanese, many of whom are here on work visas, and are not American citizens. Americans view this as good, since many of these semi-skilled workers would be on unemployment rolls, if not for Toyota. They view it as helping Americans. In the short-sighted view of things, they are correct.

The truck drivers that deliver the cars benefit, as there's less time "down" at reduced wages. These drivers are Americans.

The dealers are happy, they have a big financial stake in their dealerships.
The salesmen in Toyota stores make more money than any other car salesmen in the land! My friend constanlty breaks $1,300 @ week selling these things, while my friend who sells Chevrolets at a large dealership last year made $19,000 Gross. Which would YOU sell?

So, you see, the little guy benefits the most. I am not using the word little in a derogatory sence. Line Workers, Truck Drivers, and Car Salesmen work very hard for the money they make, and less than 2% of them are "rich" ~ I am merely saying that these are individuals who benefit. Who will NOT benefit? FUTURE GENERATIONS, and therein is the meaning of the word SHORT-SIGHTED!
When GM & Ford are ultimately owned by Nissan, Honda & Toyota and/or other groups of foreign corporations, then 90% of all parts made that go into these cars will be sourced off shore as well (as they ARE, right now, on Toyota). So, we lose our American Automobile Manufacturing Industry (the largest industry we have, BTW), or parts manufacturing industries, and so much more, with a domino ripple effect. This will give way to a total recession and then to a depression to dwarf the former depression.

The Asian market's goal, unlike that of England, Sweeden, Italy, France or Germany is NOT to participate in the American marketplace, as a player, but rather to dominate, control, and ultimately OWN the market, either buying or forcing all other players out of existence.

But, the average Joe cannot see it. He knows his Toyota was made in America (and therefore MUST be American, right?) and is a good car, and his last one served him well, too. (and) That's ALL he sees!! (and) That's JUST the way Toyota wants us all to see it!

We live in a unique transistion period, right now, as we are witnessing the ride to "Second Base" of the collapse of Ford & GM.
Remember what I have always said:
The #1 car in Germany, is German (VW)
The #1 car in Sweeden is Sweedish (Volvo)
The #1 car in France, is French (Peugeot)
The #1 car in Italy, is Italian (Fiat)
Outside of Japan & the USA, THOSE are the only car producing nations....
and.....
the #1 car in America is .... Toyota! The only land where a home product is NOT #1. (and) THAT friends was the ride to "First Base" !!! !!!

Smell Coffee ?

Eric2203
05-28-05, 10:27 PM
Great I just typed a whole reply and it logged me out. :(

Let's try this again.

Sandy, while what you say is true, it also goes the other way. American companies outsourcing. There was talk of GM cars produced in Mexico in this very thread I believe.

As to other countries trying to dominate, I'd venture to say the US wouldn't mind doing the exact same thing to everybody else.

I'm talking in general, not just car-manufacturing.

That's pretty much how it goes with worldwide companies. I don't claim to have the solution. But I don't see how a company can't be attracted to cheaper workforce and/or taxes until wages, taxes and supplies are on an equal level everywhere in the world. Which is never gonna happen.

There is one thing to remember though. Workforce might be more expensive here, but it's also skilled. While it's true, as you said, that part-manufacturing or even full assembly lines may end up abroad, the high-end products (read high-skill level required) tends to stay in countries like the USA. Because of better training, skills and talent. So not everything is running away from here, even if it comes down to foreign parts with only final assembly in the US. I see it everyday at work (nothing to do with cars, by the way).


PS: You wondered before in this thread why you were being criticized for your opinions. I can answer because I've opposed you before. I've seen you blame an entire country's population as justification for not buying their cars. Which I strongly oppose, personally. Plus, it had nothing to do with cars. On the contrary, your post above deals with economic realities, which are related to car-manufacturing. Or for example, DopeStar's post saying he doesn't buy imports because of bad experiences. It has to do with the subject at hand. Hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I thought I'd explain.

Sandy
05-29-05, 12:53 AM
I don't understand your "PS"
Otherwise I understand the rest.

Eric2203
05-29-05, 01:05 AM
Sandy, I'm referring to a thread like this:
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28945

Wasn't the only one I've seen. As far as I'm concerned, that was out of line, hence my replying in that other thread. That's an example of what I was saying in that PS above.

Night Wolf
05-29-05, 01:12 AM
The answer to all of this is so simple, yet so elusive to all.

Human nature is short-sighted, especially in the land-of-plenty.

Let's take a Toyota Camry, for an example. Follow along with me & the bouncing ball. It's made in America, using an American Work Force, BUT the factory management (Read: Big wage earners) are mostly Japanese, many of whom are here on work visas, and are not American citizens. Americans view this as good, since many of these semi-skilled workers would be on unemployment rolls, if not for Toyota. They view it as helping Americans. In the short-sighted view of things, they are correct.

The truck drivers that deliver the cars benefit, as there's less time "down" at reduced wages. These drivers are Americans.

The dealers are happy, they have a big financial stake in their dealerships.
The salesmen in Toyota stores make more money than any other car salesmen in the land! My friend constanlty breaks $1,300 @ week selling these things, while my friend who sells Chevrolets at a large dealership last year made $19,000 Gross. Which would YOU sell?

So, you see, the little guy benefits the most. I am not using the word little in a derogatory sence. Line Workers, Truck Drivers, and Car Salesmen work very hard for the money they make, and less than 2% of them are "rich" ~ I am merely saying that these are individuals who benefit. Who will NOT benefit? FUTURE GENERATIONS, and therein is the meaning of the word SHORT-SIGHTED!
When GM & Ford are ultimately owned by Nissan, Honda & Toyota and/or other groups of foreign corporations, then 90% of all parts made that go into these cars will be sourced off shore as well (as they ARE, right now, on Toyota). So, we lose our American Automobile Manufacturing Industry (the largest industry we have, BTW), or parts manufacturing industries, and so much more, with a domino ripple effect. This will give way to a total recession and then to a depression to dwarf the former depression.

The Asian market's goal, unlike that of England, Sweeden, Italy, France or Germany is NOT to participate in the American marketplace, as a player, but rather to dominate, control, and ultimately OWN the market, either buying or forcing all other players out of existence.

But, the average Joe cannot see it. He knows his Toyota was made in America (and therefore MUST be American, right?) and is a good car, and his last one served him well, too. (and) That's ALL he sees!! (and) That's JUST the way Toyota wants us all to see it!

We live in a unique transistion period, right now, as we are witnessing the ride to "Second Base" of the collapse of Ford & GM.
Remember what I have always said:
The #1 car in Germany, is German (VW)
The #1 car in Sweeden is Sweedish (Volvo)
The #1 car in France, is French (Peugeot)
The #1 car in Italy, is Italian (Fiat)
Outside of Japan & the USA, THOSE are the only car producing nations....
and.....
the #1 car in America is .... Toyota! The only land where a home product is NOT #1. (and) THAT friends was the ride to "First Base" !!! !!!

Smell Coffee ?

:( its so true....

When people knock on GM's quality, (helps if I am driving it at the time) but i point to my 1979 DeVille.... and I say, well, this car is 26 years old... and it is still a daily driver, and more reliable then alot of cars only 5 years old... THAT is a test of quality.... the test of time... I then ask how many 1979 Toyotas they see? there are NONE... the oldest import car aorund here is a 1985 or so... but there are a handful of 70's GM/Ford/Chrysler cars and trucks in my town alone, not to mention the other towns....

If it wasn't for my gas bill being about $80/week, I would be driving the '79 a whole bunch more... and, oh yeah... the tires are bald, and i can't afford new ones... and it goes for inspection in 2 days....ugh...

Ralph
05-29-05, 02:52 AM
As far as I'm concerned, that was out of line, hence my replying in that other thread.

He recites some factual history, and you call him "out of line?!"

C'mon, and do you also think ONLY the United States has skilled workers trained enough to handle the job?? Give me a break!

I got more news for you, when GM set up in Mexico, they promised many new jobs to Mexicans but what happened was GM shifted and moved many American workers down to Mexico supposedly so they never did hire as many Mexicans as they had planned initially. That is NOT to imply that a Mexican cannot handle the job of learning a new skill. Perhaps YOUR assumption is "out of line in this regard!??" And I would hope you weren't implying that.

Isn't the whole point of your "Memorial Day" to NOT forget the events of some 50 years ago. (regarding the thread you referred to in the link)

I just watched my newly bought copy of "The Avaiator" and couldn't help but wonder what Howard Hughes would say to an American owning a Toyota today....................he MIGHT even say "it's un-American!?" Sure, times are different now, global economy but who is it benefitting and you got to wonder if we are screwing ourselves by just "giving in" to purchasing so many Japanese/Chinese products. I say YES!

You want to sell more American cars, and have more American cars built in America????? Then kill off the greedy Unions that demand health care for all it's workers, as well as all the retired workers! That is bleeding GM dry. Quite frankly, after the Oldsmobile fiasco I don't believe GM can afford it! Why do you think GM is happy building and setting up shop in Canada?? Because we already have health care coverage through our taxes, that's why. Think of how much that saves GM in the long run...

Sure, people can drive what they want, but no one is "out of line" for pointing out some history that must NOT be forgotten. He is entitled to his opinion as much as anybody here!

In case some of you NEVER bothered to read the very good Jerry Flint article I linked.........

"The next chapter in this story as it is commonly told is that China will become an exporter of cars and trucks and destroy the U.S. manufacturing base. When? I can't say, but a few things are certain: China can't do it by itself. Malcolm Bricklin, who has had some success (he brought Subaru to America) and some failure (remember Yugo?) talks about importing hundreds of thousands of Chinese cars from the tiny Chery automobile company. I say don't hold your breath."

He's right, they can't do it "by themselves" it's up to suckers like us to buy their automobiles and let us screw ourselves......get it?

Eric2203
05-29-05, 03:24 AM
He recites some factual history, and you call him "out of line?!"

C'mon, and do you also think ONLY the United States has skilled workers trained enough to handle the job?? Give me a break!

I got more news for you, when GM set up in Mexico, they promised many new jobs to Mexicans but what happened was GM shifted and moved many American workers down to Mexico supposedly so they never did hire as many Mexicans as they had planned initially. That is NOT to imply that a Mexican cannot handle the job of learning a new skill. Perhaps YOUR assumption is "out of line in this regard!??"

Isn't the whole point of your "Memorial Day" to NOT forget the events of some 50 years ago. (regarding the thread you referred to in the link)

I just watched my newly bought copy of "The Avaiator" and couldn't help but wonder what Howard Hughes would say to an American owning a Toyota today....................he MIGHT even say "it's un-American!" Sure, times are different now, but you got to wonder if we are screwing ourselves just "giving in" to purchasing so many Japanese/Chinese products.

You want to sell more American cars, and have more American cars built in America????? Then kill off the greedy Unions that demand health care for all it's workers, as well as all the retired workers! That is bleeding GM dry. Why do you think GM is happy building and setting up shop in Canada?? Because we already have health care coverage through our taxes, that's why. Think of how much that saves GM in the long run...

Here we go... I knew this would happen.

1. That wasn't factual history, that was justifying his opinion today based on events which happened 60 years ago. Did you read that other thread and my reasons for posting ?

2. I never said only the US had skilled workers. Mexico was only an example by the way. I also deal with Mexican parts every day and thanks to that, I got nice insights into the way things work over there. A Mexican worker will leave a job from 1 min to the next if the company next door pays even 1 cent more. Some companies force them to have limited contracts so they can't get "old" within one company. That's so the company doesn't have to pay them benefits. Which means extremely high turnover, which also means skills are lost, which means new people to train constantly, which also means the worker's not gonna care much about his job knowing he'll be gone within a few years anyway. How does anyone expect quality like that ? Btw, it's not the worker's fault, but that doesn't change the situation. Other countries do have similar situations.

3. How do you know it's not for skill reasons that GM didn't hire as many as planned ? Call me out of line if you will, I've just explained how I know that there is a skill problem (no I don't work for GM).

4. Sigh. Read that other thread again. Nobody said anything about forgetting. Does that mean you can use the entire German population for justifying not buying their cars TODAY ? Did they choose to be born Germans (or Japanese, or whatever enemy country you want to use) ? Have you ever spoken to Germans ? Noticed how ashamed they are of their history ? I have. Oh and I'm not American (reference to Memorial Day). I'm neither Mexican, nor German, nor Japanese... doesn't mean I don't care though. You're missing the point if you think this is about forgetting what happened during WW2.

(I wonder how much flaming I'm gonna take for living and working in the USA, without being an american.)

5. Yeah maybe people should only buy things made in their countries. Is it gonna happen ? No. I've explained that in my previous post in this thread. It's not gonna happen until every country is equal in wages, taxes, supplies, quality of life... etc.

6. You think unions are bad in the USA ? Go to Europe. Try France, for example. You'll think you're in hell. That country is one example of unions being way too powerful. Having a healthcare system entirely supported by a government isn't always best either. Can't say I know how Canada fares in that domain, but others do bad. Example. Funny that, France again... the government health system is a little more in the black every year. Never actually earned anything. Though medical care is considered good. Why ? Because taxes are high and that's how they can afford to keep it running. What the government gives you with one hand, they take back with the other. For bad medical care, try UK for example. Country where most research against cancer is performed, yet the developed country where the most people die of it. That's messed up.


In any case, this was a debate for that other thread. I added some points to Sandy's economical post above, that was the purpose here. Though I hope what you're reading now makes you understand why I said he was out of line in that other thread.

Ralph
05-29-05, 03:50 AM
Here we go... I knew this would happen.

1. That wasn't factual history, that was justifying his opinion today based on events which happened 60 years ago. Did you read that other thread and my reasons for posting ?

2. I never said only the US had skilled workers. Mexico was only an example by the way. I also deal with Mexican parts every day and thanks to that, I got nice insights into the way things work over there. A Mexican worker will leave a job from 1 min to the next if the company next door pays even 1 cent more. Some companies force them to have limited contracts so they can't get "old" within one company. That's so the company doesn't have to pay them benefits. Which means extremely high turnover, which also means skills are lost, which means new people to train constantly, which also means the worker's not gonna care much about his job knowing he'll be gone within a few years anyway. How does anyone expect quality like that ? Btw, it's not the worker's fault, but that doesn't change the situation. Other countries do have similar situations.

3. How do you know it's not for skill reasons that GM didn't hire as many as planned ? Call me out of line if you will, I've just explained how I know that there is a skill problem (no I don't work for GM).

4. Sigh. Read that other thread again. Nobody said anything about forgetting. Does that mean you can use the entire German population for justifying not buying their cars TODAY ? Did they choose to be born Germans (or Japanese, or whatever enemy country you want to use) ? Have you ever spoken to Germans ? Noticed how ashamed they are of their history ? I have. Oh and I'm not American (reference to Memorial Day). I'm neither Mexican, nor German, nor Japanese... doesn't mean I don't care though. You're missing the point if you think this is about forgetting what happened during WW2.

(I wonder how much flaming I'm gonna take for living and working in the USA, without being an american.)

5. Yeah maybe people should only buy things made in their countries. Is it gonna happen ? No. I've explained that in my previous post in this thread. It's not gonna happen until every country is equal in wages, taxes, supplies, quality of life... etc.

6. You think unions are bad in the USA ? Go to Europe. Try France, for example. You'll think you're in hell. That country is one example of unions being way too powerful. Having a healthcare system entirely supported by a government isn't always best either. Can't say I know how Canada fares in that domain, but others do bad. Example. Funny that, France again... the government health system is a little more in the black every year. Never actually earned anything. Though medical care is considered good. Why ? Because taxes are high and that's how they can afford to keep it running. What the government gives you with one hand, they take back with the other. For bad medical care, try UK for example. Country where most research against cancer is performed, yet the developed country where the most people die of it. That's messed up.


In any case, this was a debate for that other thread. I added some points to Sandy's economical post above, that was the purpose here. Though I hope what you're reading now makes you understand why I said he was out of line in that other thread.

What you call flamming I call defending/discussing. If I wanted to "flame" you, you would know it! I've seen hundreds like you run your mouth and then simply disappear just to get your "rush" in. So call it what you want. You walked right into it by basically singling out one of our most respected and truthful, educated long standing members here and mocking him in my eyes. I also don't agree with you outlook on Japanese cars and that's also my purpose for responding to you. You won't admit where you are from so it's hard to know what I'm dealing with, (probably Germany) but I sure get your jist. You ARE in denial of history and historical events it would seem and what you don't "get" is that many people relate those events DIRECTLY to what kind of car a person drives. It is most certainly related to some people and their purchasing decisions! Many people are old enough to remember those events and not purchase a certain type of car for that reason alone. There have been stories related here of insurance salesmen driving up to farm (in the U.S.) in an Acura and promptly ordered to leave on that reason alone because their father was killed at Pearl Harbour. That is also related directly to "history" and don't try to swade that in any way shape or form.

I'm well aware of the union situation in Europe and I also know that they are still able to sell a great many cars there and IMO due to the fact that they do not "kill off" divisions as many here would like GM to do. I'm not sure if you are aware of what happened to GM after killing off Olds, but it was not cheap as the Olds dealerships sued GM for leaving them in the dust and it cost billions! The point......GM could learn something from the Europeans in that killing off divisions can be much more costly than just keeping existing ones and adding one occasionally.

So don't even think of illogically accusing someone of flamming just because they do not agree with you! Like I said, your opinion is as valid as Sandy's or mine, so stop reading things the wrong way.

That was the debate from the other thread, and it is closely related to the theme of THIS thread, evidenced by YOUR linking it HERE.

Lighten up.

Ralph
05-29-05, 03:54 AM
5. Yeah maybe people should only buy things made in their countries.

You just answered your own question here. I believe when most people realize this, it will be too late.

Toyota's success is just one example offered as proof.

Eric2203
05-29-05, 04:04 AM
What you call flamming I call defending/discussing. If I wanted to "flame" you, you would know it! I've seen hundreds like you run your mouth and then simply disappear just to get your "rush" in. So call it what you want. You walked right into it by basically singling out one of our most respected and truthful, educated long standing members here and mocking him in my eyes. I also don't agree with you outlook on Japanese cars and that's also my purpose for responding to you. You won't admit where you are from so it's hard to know what I'm dealing with, (probably Germany) but I sure get your jist. You ARE in denial of history and historical events it would seem and what you don't "get" is that many people relate those events DIRECTLY to what kind of car a person drives. It is most certainly related to some people and their purchasing decisions! Many people are old enough to remember those events and not purchase a certain type of car for that reason alone. There have been stories related here of insurance salesmen driving up to farm (in the U.S.) in an Acura and promptly ordered to leave on that reason alone because their father was killed at Pearl Harbour. That is also related directly to "history" and don't try to swade that in any way shape or form.

I'm well aware of the union situation in Europe and I also know that they are still able to sell a great many cars there and IMO due to the fact that they do not "kill off" divisions as many here would like GM to do. I'm not sure if you are aware of what happened to GM after killing off Olds, but it was not cheap as the Olds dealerships sued GM for leaving them in the dust and it cost billions! The point......GM could learn something from the Europeans in that killing off divisions can be much more costly than just keeping existing ones and adding one occasionally.

So don't even think of illogically accusing someone of flamming just because they do not agree with you! Like I said, your opinion is as valid as Sandy's or mine, so stop reading things the wrong way.

That was the debate from the other thread, and it is closely related to the theme of THIS thread, evidenced by YOUR linking it HERE.

Lighten up.

Gah I never said you flamed me. I suggested I'd get flamed for being foreign and not necessarily by you.

So you're posting because I disagree with Sandy ? What's that got to do with anything ? This in no way changes the fact that he is extremely knowledgeable and helpful here. He's even helped me before.

Who said I won't admit to where I'm from ?! It didn't occur to me to post it. I'm half-french, half-british. I told you I wasn't german, so where does that come from, lol ?

No I am not in denial of history. Don't give me that. That's absolutely untrue. I've said it has nothing to do with forgetting/remembering. It's about basing one's decisions today on facts that happened 60 years ago. Actually no, it's not even that, it's about generalising to an entire country like it was done in the other thread.

Yeah, some people base they purchase decisions on that. I never tried to say it doesn't happen. Does that make it right ? Does that prevent me from saying so ?

About GM, divisions and Europe, I'm not familiar enough to comment. Though I do see that the UK doesn't have many car brands that are still British. What's left that's still indepedent ? TVR ? I also see Rover disappearing.

No, I'm not sure it's related to the debate at hand. Next time, I won't offer an explanation.

Lighten up ? I'm not mad. You jumped at me because it's THE Sandy. Like you said, I've rights to disagree.

Actually I think YOU need to lighten up. Telling me I'm just here to run my mouth... I'll reply to every single one of your posts, I stand by my opinions and I'm not afraid to do so. Your "denial of history" argument is laughable. I told you where I'm from, so you know I'm on the US side, so-to-speak, as far as WW2 is concerned. Doesn't mean I'm ignorant enough to make every german, japanese, italian... etc pay for it TODAY. That's what this is about, not what happened then. You say you disagree with my view on Japanese cars, that this is why you post here, yet you don't even talk about it...

Why did you post exactly ?

EDIT due to your other post: K, try to convince companies to make products only in one country and in some cases, at a higher cost. Good luck to you. I'll support you all the way, but it's not gonna happen. I've already said why in my opinion (wages, taxes, supplies).

Ralph
05-29-05, 05:11 AM
Next time, I won't offer an explanation.


We finally agree on something! Just remember, there is a difference between flaming and debating.

Ralph
05-29-05, 05:13 AM
yet you don't even talk about it...

Why did you post exactly ?


LOL! You might want to go back and read this entire thread from the beginning and maybe then you'll figure out what I'm talking about, and the theme of this entire thread for that matter.....no one has discussed this situation more than myself or started more threads on it...read into that what you want..and there is NOTHING wrong with being a little patriotic and since there are many GM, etc. cars built here I consider then domestics, but I will NEVER consider a Toyota or Chinese car domestic because more of that money will go overseas, and there is a negative impact from that outcome. This thread was about a simple poll as well and it would look like more than a few people are concerned of the outcome of a foreign-flooded market as well as myself. Don't read so much into everything. When cornered, you ask silly illogical questions that one could write a novel to.......examples...

"Does that make it right ? Does that prevent me from saying so ?"

"Why did you post exactly ?"

"Who said I won't admit to where I'm from ?!"

"How do you know it's not for skill reasons that GM didn't hire as many as planned ?"

"How does anyone expect quality like that ?"

I'm curious what some of these even have to do with the topic at hand.

Ralph
05-29-05, 05:26 AM
Gah I never said you flamed me. I suggested I'd get flamed for being foreign and not necessarily by you.


Ahhh, no! It's more than obvious that's not what you meant by stating THIS...."Here we go... I knew this would happen."

Don't try to "kid a kidder," that was in direct response to what I said. :shhh:

"I wonder how much flaming I'm gonna take for living and working in the USA, without being an american."

And why in the world would ANYONE flame you for that?? If they flammed you for that I would also take offence to it!


p.s. I still DO NOT believe Sandy was "out of line" and that most certainly IS MY OPINION! I will defend someone if they are accused of being "out of line" when in fact I don't believe they were.

Ralph
05-29-05, 05:52 AM
Your "denial of history" argument is laughable.

REALLY??!! Care to tell me what in Sandy's statement as quoted HERE is false??

"I have not forgotten German's Reich, the gas chambers and what they did, nor have I forgotten Pearl Harbor."

THAT sounds like ACCURATE HISTORY to me whether people like to admit it or not.

Good day sir! Now please, stick to the topic at hand.....

SilverCTS
05-29-05, 09:48 AM
I'm not totally convinced that Chinese automakers will be as successful as Japanese automakers. In fact, I believe that China will really struggle in the US marketplace.

In many ways, the Japanese automakers were sort of lucky. They just had the right product at the right time. Back in the mid to late 70s, people wanted to get away from the big gas guzzling sedans, and many embraced the Accord, Corrolla, etc. The Pinto and Chevette were simply not very attractive alternatives.

Plus, China is still a communist country. This is important to note because communist countries generally don't have good business and marketing skills. Remember: China is very good at manufacturing and distributing someone elses product. They are not very good at designing, engineering and marketing their own products.

US is tops in terms innovation. Everything is invented here, and as long as that is true, we'll be ok regardless of where things are manufactured.

Eric2203
05-29-05, 04:48 PM
Christ Ralph, enough of this. All I did was add a "PS" at the end of one of my posts, for Sandy's attention. You turned it into this. You're the one bringing it off-topic, not me. Quit accusing me of that, that's quite enough.

I don't see how my questions are illogical. Perhaps because you can't answer them ?

Look at me saying "How does anyone expect quality like that?". Go re-read what I said. It was at the end of a paragraph giving the answer to the question. This was a rhetorical question. Learn to read for crying out loud. And this has everything to do with the economic realities posted here.

Enough Ralph. I never said Sandy gave any false statements. I have never said anything about denying what happeneed in history. I told you, this is about blaming today's people for yesterday's events.

You really want to know why it matters to me ? I'll tell you. Just like I just told Sandy in PM. I'm of mixed origins, I live in the USA, which isn't even one of the countries I'm from. And I've experienced racism and xenophobia myself before. Even here I've been told "Go back to your country" because I have an accent. That was told by an "American" who forgot he was as European as I am. Not a native. Seems like a lot of people forget who populated the north-american continent. And I'm supposed to let posts accusing entire populations for WW2 go ? Even though my origins are on the US side as far as WW2 goes ? I will never let such posts go.

Get out of your country and go talk to other people out there. Perhaps you'll realise how wrong you are to still make them pay for it.

Ralph
05-29-05, 04:54 PM
I'm not totally convinced that Chinese automakers will be as successful as Japanese automakers. In fact, I believe that China will really struggle in the US marketplace.

In many ways, the Japanese automakers were sort of lucky. They just had the right product at the right time. Back in the mid to late 70s, people wanted to get away from the big gas guzzling sedans, and many embraced the Accord, Corrolla, etc. The Pinto and Chevette were simply not very attractive alternatives.

Plus, China is still a communist country. This is important to note because communist countries generally don't have good business and marketing skills. Remember: China is very good at manufacturing and distributing someone elses product. They are not very good at designing, engineering and marketing their own products.

US is tops in terms innovation. Everything is invented here, and as long as that is true, we'll be ok regardless of where things are manufactured.

Hmmm, good points. I just wonder if the Chinese will do exactly what the Koreans did at first and then learn how to make good cars as time passes, etc. Just like Korea did and now they are getting much better and in some cases matching Toyota's quality! (Hyundai) I don't think anyone expected Korea would become a threat, but they have now and have learned to improve....

I'm still not that optimistic about the future regarding this and I'm VERY concerned for the North American economy! I think it's about time GM dumps thousands of low cost economy cars in Japan and see how they like it, or how it effects their economy! IF they would even allow it!!! NOT bloddy likely!

Ralph
05-29-05, 05:12 PM
Get out of your country and go talk to other people out there. Perhaps you'll realise how wrong you are to still make them pay for it.

Who's making who pay for what!!! I'm damn concerned for the future of the NA economy, that's WHAT!!! THAT's what this thread is about!!!!! So you are saying that by my buying a new Cadillac, I am actually making Germany or Japan "pay for it!?" That's the best one I've heard all year! (well almost) BOO HOO for Germany or Japan! We in NA have to consider the LONG TERM effects of allowing too many foreign car manufacturers because we are already experiencing the impact of market saturation in this regard, and it is not, nor will be, positive! ie. talk of GM killing off Buick or Pontiac or BOTH, which would be a huge mistake and not realized until it's too late! Do you honestly THINK that Germany or JAPAN give a rats ass about the (American) North American economy!!!???

This all started when you called someone "out of line" for providing a personal opinion (and one I believe to be true as well). He was NOT "out of line!" If YOU cannot respect someone's own personal opinion, how do you expect me to respect your bleeding heart opinion about caring for the people of Germany and Japan and their economy??!!. One would also think that someone who lived or grew up in England of France, especially after the impact of WW2 (we still don't know your story, and I don't care anymore) would certainly respect the opinion of personal preference towards purchasing an American automobile and understand where they are coming from especially if they had family killed in France by the Germans. (like my family) THAT is personal buying influence for millions of people and you CANNOT accept that fact!

You trolled on the GM corporate thread and now you Troll on mine with the same topic! Go pick someone else's thread to ruin! I could care less about your infamous "PS" to Sandy, but when you go around mocking a personal belief and opinon I HAVE issue with that! Then you turn around and expect people to respect YOURS!!! :hmm: :tisk:

You probably won't even be around here is 2-6 months, so why am I wasting time with you again????

I still think you owe Sandy an apology for insulting his personal belief on this topic! Until then I cannot take you seriously.

Have a wonderful day!

Stoneage_Caddy
05-29-05, 05:52 PM
go figure id stop keeping tabs on a thread and this would happen.....

im watching now .....finger on the lock button ....everone plase get back on topic , its an excellent discussion untill we got petty

personally i think everyone is partly right and mostly wrong .....america failed on boath ends of the transaction , american desingers and engineers failed to deilver a product to the american public at a fair price and beatter quaility than what the japanese brought over....they failed ot make the product fashionable or envouge to the american buyer.....GM is gripeing about the extra thounsands in each car built int he us becuse of healthcare costs , when really they could have done more to jusify the cost of doing busness....people will buy a higher price if they belive its worth it ....sadly you cant sell american cars on partiotisim alone ...

toyota has perfected the art of giving the public what it wants , a unobstrusive appliance to get them thru there daily life ...

If the cars that roll out the door at lansing assembly or lordstown assembly were built to such a high standard and desgined to grab appeal the cost of doing business with american workers would make sense to the big 2 ...

right now in my book , the cars rolling out the door in osaka are equal in quailty to those rolling out the door in norman oklahoma ..now we need to do it beatter than they do ....

GM need to be the first to bring ISO9000 to automobiles ...

Ralph
05-29-05, 05:59 PM
american desingers and engineers failed to deilver a product to the american public at a fair price and beatter quaility than what the japanese brought over....they failed ot make the product fashionable or envouge to the american buyer..

True. I think there were other factors as well...

I think at first, in the 1970's when Toyota and Honda hit the scene, no one took them seriously. People still wanted to drive a large American car because gas was cheap and I remember only a few of these things around in the 1970's, and they were considered a joke. NOW, with the likes of Lexus and Infinity offering good quality and larger, more powerful cars with V8's GM, Ford and Chrysler are really suffering! Then came the Koreans, now the Chinese! How can this be positive for GM? I don't think it will be but people don't seem to care at this point.

The poll indicates that half would buy one of the Chinese POS. That's a bit alarming to me. Because GM quality will be leaps and bounds ahead of the first wave of crappy Chinese cars, yet, people will still buy one??

Stoneage_Caddy
05-29-05, 06:04 PM
its comapnys like GMs fault that they are in trouble to begin with ...

part of doing business is noteing upcoming treands and adjusting your operations to meet those trends...GM and ford both realyed on the "what we do is best for the country".....toyota honda and nissan never rested on there laurels (even tho nissan produced a car named laurel)

remeber the japanese started out the way huyndai did ..slinging the worst cars in the world to americans ....if it wasnt for the 73 oil crisis happening at the same time toyota implented what they learned from GM and fords manuafutureing processes they would have never got so much momentum...

1955 was more than a state of mind folks .....

Eric2203
05-29-05, 07:58 PM
Who's making who pay for what!!! I'm damn concerned for the future of the NA economy, that's WHAT!!! THAT's what this thread is about!!!!! So you are saying that by my buying a new Cadillac, I am actually making Germany or Japan "pay for it!?" That's the best one I've heard all year! (well almost) BOO HOO for Germany or Japan! We in NA have to consider the LONG TERM effects of allowing too many foreign car manufacturers because we are already experiencing the impact of market saturation in this regard, and it is not, nor will be, positive! ie. talk of GM killing off Buick or Pontiac or BOTH, which would be a huge mistake and not realized until it's too late! Do you honestly THINK that Germany or JAPAN give a rats ass about the (American) North American economy!!!???

Exactly, that's what this thread is about. Give economical reasons for not buying their cars as you just did. And do you think the US gives a rat's ass about others' economies ? Goes both ways... Doesn't mean I want to see the car-manufacturing industry crumple in the US or any other country for that matter. Let's talk about that.


This all started when you called someone "out of line" for providing a personal opinion (and one I believe to be true as well). He was NOT "out of line!" If YOU cannot respect someone's own personal opinion, how do you expect me to respect your bleeding heart opinion about caring for the people of Germany and Japan and their economy??!!. One would also think that someone who lived or grew up in England of France, especially after the impact of WW2 (we still don't know your story, and I don't care anymore) would certainly respect the opinion of personal preference towards purchasing an American automobile and understand where they are coming from especially if they had family killed in France by the Germans. (like my family) THAT is personal buying influence for millions of people and you CANNOT accept that fact!

I accept that fact, I've told you. It doesn't mean it's right in my view and I can most certainly post about it.


You trolled on the GM corporate thread and now you Troll on mine with the same topic! Go pick someone else's thread to ruin! I could care less about your infamous "PS" to Sandy, but when you go around mocking a personal belief and opinon I HAVE issue with that! Then you turn around and expect people to respect YOURS!!! :hmm: :tisk:

You probably won't even be around here is 2-6 months, so why am I wasting time with you again????

I still think you owe Sandy an apology for insulting his personal belief on this topic! Until then I cannot take you seriously.

How am I trolling ? I've given you examples regarding Mexico, I've talked about economic issues and all you manage to post about is WW2.

Why is it that because I disagree with someone, I am mocking them ? It's not lack of respect for their opinion, it's a disagreement. You don't accept it because you agree with him. Fine, but why treat me that way ? At least discuss it.

Why should I owe anyone an apology for disagreeing with them ? It's like me asking you to apologize to me for disagreeing with me. I'm not asking you to, I'm asking you to discuss it in an adult manner. Instead you're accusing me of not telling where I'm from, of now knowing my whole story. What do you want to know ? Ask. If it's not too personal, I'll answer. I have no problem with that. I've been civil. Please act the same way. For example, what's with the "running your mouth", "you won't be here in 2-6 months" commments ? Is that relevant ? What, you want me to leave ? I've already been here 6 months, I own a Caddy, I like it very much and I've come here wanting to learn about my car. As long as I own one, I don't see why I wouldn't be able to be here. Unless Sal wishes to ban me, of course.


Have a wonderful day!

Same to you. And I do mean it, regardless of our opinions. I'm not foolish enough to believe I'll change the world. But I can post my opinions on a forum, that's what they're for.

Stoneage, rather than locking it, if you must act, delete my posts. I have no wish to get an interesting debate get locked. Though I'll most certainly think twice about posting from now on, even if it has nothing to do with this subject.

Stoneage_Caddy
05-29-05, 08:07 PM
look i have to let you guys know that im considering locking it ....its spiraling into something that might become a flame war ....and i dont want that

you and ralph have now made your points ...

i dont know why youd think twice about posting .....are you going to do that "the mods are natzis thing too "?

im not here to opress you and your thoughts....but i am here to keep everything cool ....oviously you and ralph arent playing nicely ...im not blaming anyone but i would like to ensure it doesnt get any worse ....

i wont act unles this contunies to go down hill .....thats why im talking about locking it ...hopeing you two will go back to being civil ...so to boath of you : the arguement is over settle your diffrnces over PM or forget it ...ralph made his points , you have made you rebuttle ,its over......but dont leave here in a huff over some crazy idea that i am some natzi out to get you and that sal is gonna ban you ....i dont see why the thought would cross someones mind unless they thought they were doing something wrong

Eric2203
05-29-05, 08:42 PM
Understood. I wasn't thinking I was gonna get banned or blame you for locking this. I was saying that would be the only way I wouldn't be here, I'm most certainly not leaving. I'll understand if you lock it too. The reason for thinking about posting twice is because I'm attacked for disagreeing with a valued member instead of for the issue at hand. Not because of mods or admins.

I'm out of this thread. Everyone else, please ignore all this and post away.

Ralph
05-30-05, 07:10 PM
We live in a unique transistion period, right now, as we are witnessing the ride to "Second Base" of the collapse of Ford & GM.
Remember what I have always said:
The #1 car in Germany, is German (VW)
The #1 car in Sweeden is Sweedish (Volvo)
The #1 car in France, is French (Peugeot)
The #1 car in Italy, is Italian (Fiat)
Outside of Japan & the USA, THOSE are the only car producing nations....
and.....
the #1 car in America is .... Toyota! The only land where a home product is NOT #1. (and) THAT friends was the ride to "First Base" !!! !!!


Thanks for posting this info again. I know I could have used it in other threads. Now I can find it. :D

The poll really suprises me. 50%!

Adam
05-30-05, 08:09 PM
i voted never. no reason, just the fact that i have owned a jap car and it was terrible and would hate to see a chinese car and its supposed quality.

Ralph
05-30-05, 08:10 PM
i voted never. no reason, just the fact that i have owned a jap car and it was terrible and would hate to see a chinese car and its supposed quality.

So is your computer fixed now or what?! Hopefully you are back for good!
Could be too many firewalls....

Adam
05-30-05, 08:16 PM
i sent you a pm. dude i love your avatar with the Eagle and the helmet and gun and the flag. very classy my friend, i wouldnt have expected that from you (you as in any non US citizen).

Ralph
05-30-05, 08:20 PM
i sent you a pm. dude i love your avatar with the Eagle and the helmet and gun and the flag. very classy my friend, i wouldnt have expected that from you (you as in any non US citizen).

Soldiers are soldiers, and as long as they fight for the same cause. Considering the amount of medals and awards the U.S. government is awarding to the Canadian soldiers lately, I figure we all the same in the endeavour.

Sandy
05-31-05, 12:02 AM
MY FINAL POST HEREIN THIS THREAD

Ralph & Eric....
Your points each have validity. Please, stop going at one & others throat. I have PM'd Eric and we have corresponded. I do not believe Eric's intentions are based upon any evil or trolling. He & I do see things from a different perspective, and THAT'S simply because we are different. Isn't that nice? How would it be if we were all identical in appearance & opinion.
I think enough feathers have been riuffled over this debate and it's time each of us accepted the fact, that people don't aways agree. Accept & move on.
On another note.....
Stoneage, Pleeease my feathers are up, please refrain from using "NAZI" this and "NAZI" that and so forth and so on. As club journalist, it's not proper and it most definately trivializes the true meaning of a NAZI, what it stood for in history and what the terminology stands for in {our} history!!
Thanks !

Ralph
05-31-05, 04:35 PM
A couple of China's cars aren't TOO bad in appearance.......

http://www.cardesignnews.com/autoshows/2005/shanghai/highlights/index.php

The "X-Coupe" is nice to look at.

Stoneage_Caddy
05-31-05, 04:46 PM
MY FINAL POST HEREIN THIS THREAD

Ralph & Eric....
Your points each have validity. Please, stop going at one & others throat. I have PM'd Eric and we have corresponded. I do not believe Eric's intentions are based upon any evil or trolling. He & I do see things from a different perspective, and THAT'S simply because we are different. Isn't that nice? How would it be if we were all identical in appearance & opinion.
I think enough feathers have been riuffled over this debate and it's time each of us accepted the fact, that people don't aways agree. Accept & move on.
On another note.....
Stoneage, Pleeease my feathers are up, please refrain from using "NAZI" this and "NAZI" that and so forth and so on. As club journalist, it's not proper and it most definately trivializes the true meaning of a NAZI, what it stood for in history and what the terminology stands for in {our} history!!
Thanks !
Seems i cant do anything here without someone getting offended ....i cant even use the terminaology that has been used on me by memebers here at these forums in regards to how i moderate....I have been called that word on more than one occasion ....my featers are ruffled all the time ....thinking i was about to get another PM regarding that word i went ahead and brought the subject up ....

Sorry if i offended you sandy ....the term instelf was not ment by me to do harm or referance the crimes against humanity that took place in history (and still do) in the sick and twisted society we live in ...

Sure does suck for me to be a plain young single white guy ....Im not allowed to be offended by anything ....but i am allowed to be a racist ...

Why i bother comeing here anymore is beyond me ....

Sandy
05-31-05, 06:32 PM
I'm not calling you are racist! Where you get such an idea. You can use over zealous regarding a situation, or Police-Like. But Nazi ? That's over the top. If it's used upon you, you need to just delete the word, or post, as you see fit. I would delete the word. (ya know..it's the OTHER "N" word).

Ralph
05-31-05, 06:41 PM
I'm not calling you are racist! Where you get such an idea.

I don't believe he meant you, Sandy, he probably meant "in society" in general. And he did apologize for any misunderstanding.

either way I believe Stoney is doing a very good job as a moderator...personally speaking..it's a tough job being a Mod and stepping in between people and friends and making hard-lined decisions that can affect one or the other, etc.

Sandy
05-31-05, 10:12 PM
Stoney IS doing a REMARKABLE job. I was only making a suggestion that would take him from a A to an A+ :yup:

Stoneage_Caddy
05-31-05, 10:40 PM
OK im cooled down about this subject right now...

Ralph , thanks ....its been very hard , being your freind and still doing whats right around here ....i have alot of freinds here id like to think ....being that way i always like to see everyone get along .....

Sandy , I came back to reply to you out of the respect i have for your accomplishments and aititude...

As a real writer you know that you have to speak to your audience in the language they speak ....People that think mods here at cadillac forums are out to get them are also the type that doesnt understand and frequently uses the "N " Word...while that isnt an excuse it expalins why i used it ...

Im pretty sensitve to the needs of such a diverse group as this one , just last night i caught myself and kept myself from making a referance of how my ex girlfreind was hitlers twin sister....I didnt post it because of you , i didnt want to offend you or anyone else we may have of jewish faith ....So i omitted it ....So when you piped up on the "N" word you caught me off gaurd , and curretly in one hell of a battle im wageing to get my job back , due to what ammounts to as rascisim against me ...Im pretty damn grumpy lately over it so i snapped ...

Ill try to be more senstive ....its a fine line between being senstive and looseing my "color".....

Ralph
05-31-05, 10:57 PM
Ralph ....its been very hard , being your freind

:crying2: :disappoin :crying: :banghead:



;) :D

TomDeville
06-01-05, 01:34 AM
G.M. Rules!

Sandy I always agree with
you; but, as you are keenly aware,
only 110% of the time.
I know that you grow frustrated
when apart from Randy W. and a
few notable other awesome American
Men, it is consistently You and My fellow
Canadian Ralph (although I live closer
to you than him), who assert the merits
of U.S. protectionism. Why don't more of
my American friends have Sandy's back?

This is a concern for the future. Moreover,
the reality is Red China is slowly taking over
the world. The Berlin Wall fell, not the Great
Wall of China. The automobile sector is part
of their domination scheme;but, there will be
other Red China priorities met in advance of the
domination of the auto sector, examples of which
are already happening around us ( ie. property).
How many Cities and Towns have more than one
Chinatown now, for example? ...What country has
the largest population on earth?.. I don't blame the
Chinese, don't get me wrong. When your opponent
presents as weak and is prepared to yield to you,
one cannot be blamed for dominating them.

Accordingly, American protectionism must be a priority!
The Japanese have written the blueprint,
and are conducting themselves like masters.
The most stolen car in my region is Korean.
I do not care if it was assembled or even
built in North America... the profits go elsewhere...
the local guy in Tennessee or Ontario who gets
a Japanese paycheck is not worth a cornerstone
industry capitulating to foreign masters.

Yours very truly,


TomDeville :coolgleam
:coolgleam



Dear Esteemed CaddyCommunity:

I do not think that the vigorous
debate herein has exceeded the
boundaries of civility, and it now
appears that all concerned are duly
'playing nice'; nonetheless, and,
notwithstanding the foregoing, I hereby
respectfully assert the following contentions
and key points:

1) Stoneage is an exceptional on board
Moderator and Journalist.
2) Eric is intelligent.
3) Sandy and Ralph are right.
4) I am happy to play the 'smarty
pants game' with Eric, if and when
the aforesaid right guys are tired of
debating with him.

In any event,

the paramouncy of U.S. protectionism
must constitute an overarching priority
that cannot be compromised by American
youthful indifference and apathy, and/or
more sinister and organized proponents
of subversive activities, including but not
limited to those who are challenged to the
extent that they think that purchasing a
Toyopet assembled in Tennessee or Ontario
means they have purchased a North American
vehicle.

I smell the coffee Sandy. I hope and pray
that the majority of others have the capacity
to do the same.

Best Regards,

TomDeville :coolgleam
:coolgleam

Sandy
06-01-05, 05:44 AM
They are making Instant Coffee, & are burning it.
It's Taiwanese coffee and it's very good! Much better
than ours, cheaper too....comes from a plant in
Arkansas, ya know. :rolleyes2 :banghead:

Ralph
06-01-05, 05:50 AM
No weak coffee for me. Nabob "Tradition" and no less please. :thumbsup:

Sandy
06-01-05, 09:49 AM
the paramouncy of U.S. protectionism
must constitute an overarching priority
that cannot be compromised by American
youthful indifference and apathy, and/or
more sinister and organized proponents
of subversive activities, including but not
limited to those who are challenged to the
extent that they think that purchasing a
Toyopet assembled in Tennessee or Ontario
means they have purchased a North American
vehicle.
:yeah: :yeah:

Ralph
06-01-05, 03:48 PM
We seem to be the minority in voicing this opinion and concern guys, but the poll would indicate others feel as we do but will NEVER discuss it, or feel it is politically incorrect to admit so.

Eric2203
06-04-05, 05:15 AM
1) Stoneage is an exceptional on board
Moderator and Journalist.
2) Eric is intelligent.
3) Sandy and Ralph are right.
4) I am happy to play the 'smarty
pants game' with Eric, if and when
the aforesaid right guys are tired of
debating with him.

Sorry for the delay in replying. Had a busy week.

Thanks... I think... :hmm:

Not trying to be smart. Justifying my convictions I guess. And the power of friendship is powerful here.

* sliding away *

weister42
06-05-05, 08:20 PM
Hum....I think I can say somthing about Chinese car building quality...

I used to live in Taiwan and our second family vehicle is a FORD, a Ford Uranus if translate the name straight but basically it is a Mazda 626 but a Ford built in Taiwan. It had a 2.0(?) fourbanger with optional 2.8 v6. We never had any problms with it and we took it everywhere; from high mountains through mudslides to traffic jams and high speed highway driving, it never gave us any problems and all we did is scheduled maintanence. I remember I used to get sick in that car because the new car smell is so strong:halo:. If you know anything about Taiwan all possible road conditions are all within a few hours of driving, so to me this is a bit of a challenge for daily driven car.

The quality control of products made in Taiwan is higher than in China however.

Ralph
06-05-05, 08:29 PM
Hum....I think I can say somthing about Chinese car building quality...


The quality control of products made in Taiwan is higher than in China however.

Thanks for the input. I would agree about anything from Taiwan being quality nowadays. If it's made in China, you know it's crap. I've heard friends mention this and I've had numerous radios, electronics etc. from both locations, etc.

China will improve in their automobiles I'm sure because they want a piece of the pie.

Elvis
06-05-05, 09:10 PM
When I was a kid, if I got a toy that had a "MADE IN JAPAN" sticker on it, I knew it was crap and it wouldn't last an hour.

It takes them a while, but eventually they get it. The Asian culture and work ethic is very conducive to mass production with strict quality control standards. We're in serious trouble and don't know it yet.

Sandy
06-05-05, 09:30 PM
I still have a few small scars on my fingers where the unfinished raw sharp edges of Japanese Toys my Mom got me cut me! (Some Badly) !! In America there was a law stating that metal toys edges had to be "Rolled" and smoothly finished, but the cheap Japanese imports were unfinished with many sharp edges that were not friendly to skin. That's okay. I've gotten back at them!! 20 to 30 cars I've bought, not one from Japan ! Ha.

Ralph
06-05-05, 10:06 PM
LOL! Back in the '70's I had this plastic "Highway Patrol" helicopter that smoked!!! It had the little jet turbine thingy that somehow produced smoke and the blades turned and people "lit up" inside! I think it was from either Taiwan or China, but it worked even years later and I still have it back home. I've always wanted to take it to a lab or somewhere to see how carcinogenic the smoke was!! When I had that thing turned on, it was worse than when my Dad smoked and Mom made me go outside!!!!!!

A quality toy that was harmful.......ahhhhh the '70's. :worship:

sog
06-05-05, 10:33 PM
OK histort time
1st the japanese kicked our buts in the 70s because of our own fault. The US was labor union dominated with respects to mant industries, notably the auto industry. Unions tend to increase prices and not allow market forces to play. I was only a matter of time before the market forces crushed the american auto maker.
2nd the auto plants were very old and unchanged, for many reasons including but not limited the union control...Notice most US plants are new today, and consequently build some of the best cars in the world today.
3rd, we allowed the japanese to subsidize their auto manifacturers and run up one hell of a deficit with the us...WHAT ABOUT GATT.
4th, pansy legislaors and politicians alike wee purchased in full, either thru lobbyist or directly....disgusting and unamerican.
I love the good ole USA and believe that this so-called engagement has to be severley curtailed, else, world destruction will follow....Why you ask? Simple, the history of the chinese has been one of isolationaism and distrust...Just look at what happened to the pilot "wrong way..lol"
Look what they did to the military aircraft they forced to land...All they have been doing with their new found wealth that we are responsible for is militarizing....dont believe me....see the Spratley islands...See formosa (taiwan as its called today)
Look at their theft of Intercontinental ballistic missile technology at the hands of our friend the cigar inserting saxaphone player(clintoris) ...mispelling intended
DISTRUST THE CHINESE, CUZ THERE IS GOOD RESON TO!

adam_mcd
06-06-05, 07:25 PM
we're going to be in a cold war with china soon..if not, already. it would be asking if you would buy a russian car during the cold war. hyundai hasnt proven anything yet. kia neither. theyre still shoddy and the customer service, even on the west coast, is the worst i have ever seen...dont even get me started on the cost repairng the damn things...worth the price of the car itself (and that isnt good..)

Ralph
06-06-05, 08:03 PM
hyundai hasnt proven anything yet. kia neither.

KIA is still crap, but I beg to differ regarding Hyundai. They have made leaps and bounds in quality and have matched or even beat Toyota!!

http://cadillacforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23977

The Chinese will "pick it up" soon enough, I'm sure. Like we REALLY need MORE market saturation. Then eventually, the Chinese will build luxury cars once they get the compacts "right." They actually do build one or two luxury models currently for the chinese market, and if I can find that link, I'll repost it.

Elvis
06-06-05, 08:05 PM
I read something really interesting about 12 years ago explaining why we were being hurt so badly by our trade deficit today. Basically the opinion of the writer was that things are just balancing out after our economic boom during the late 40's, 50's, and 60's.

The reason we were able to dominate the world during those three decades is that we bombed our top two competitors into oblivion during WWII. There was nobody except the Russians who could compete with us. Their primary focus was military power--every Ruble of their GDP went into military, space, and what was left over went back into agriculture. There were virtually no exports. They even sat on their vast oil reserves.

But, being the solid world citizens that we are, we implemented the Marshall Plan to help re-build the two countries we destroyed. We showed them the blueprint for our success. They took it, improved on it, and whipped us at our own game.

No other country in the history of the world has ever done that for a vanquished foe. Our problem right now is that we're soft, and we've become a service economy rather than a manufacturer or producer. Our labor force is poorly educated by world standards.

I don't want to sound like a bleeding heart liberal, but things don't happen in this country because they're the RIGHT thing to do, they only happen if someone can make money doing them.

Ralph
06-06-05, 08:07 PM
Here are some of the Chinese cars, the first one being the concept for a luxury RR type....

http://www.cardesignnews.com/autoshows/2005/shanghai/highlights/index.php

Elvis
06-06-05, 08:15 PM
Scary.

jspano
06-06-05, 08:16 PM
i find ironic that kia name.
kia during the vietnam thing
meant ... killed in action

hmmmmm.

Ralph
06-06-05, 08:20 PM
i find ironic that kia name.
kia during the vietnam thing
meant ... killed in action

hmmmmm.

LOL, I never throught of that. Maybe the American car companies will be called KIA one day?! :(

Sandy
06-06-05, 10:39 PM
Those are the ugliest cars I have ever had the misfortune to lay eyes on.
They can have them.

Ralph
06-06-05, 10:41 PM
They can have them.

Fear naught my friend! We'll be seeing MANY of them putting around here soon enough. :sneaky: :eek:

Ralph
06-07-05, 12:45 AM
OK histort time
1st the japanese kicked our buts in the 70s because of our own fault. The US was labor union dominated with respects to mant industries, notably the auto industry. Unions tend to increase prices and not allow market forces to play. I was only a matter of time before the market forces crushed the american auto maker.
2nd the auto plants were very old and unchanged, for many reasons including but not limited the union control...Notice most US plants are new today, and consequently build some of the best cars in the world today.
3rd, we allowed the japanese to subsidize their auto manifacturers and run up one hell of a deficit with the us...WHAT ABOUT GATT.
4th, pansy legislaors and politicians alike wee purchased in full, either thru lobbyist or directly....disgusting and unamerican.


Or maybe the Japanese were producing cheap, small, fuel-efficient cars in '70s when Detroit only had Vegas and Pintos to offer during the OPEC crisis. Then they started incorporating improved technical expertise in their designs. Plus they kept the yen low. (I don't think the Japanese did subsidize their car companies). And American manufacturers never bothered to engineer their cars for the Japanese market, as the Japanese do for America and Europe. Actually, Detroit still doesn't.

Ralph
06-07-05, 01:33 AM
Here's yet another story:

"Car-Crazy China is Third-Largest Market

Motor mania is sweeping China, despite a clampdown on car purchase loans by the Beijing government. Growth in car sales is expected to continue at a minimum of ten percent a year and reach as much as a whopping 20 percent in the foreseeable future, according to an overview on China's expanding automobile culture in The Economist magazine (June 2).

In a frenzy which historians have compared to the U.S. a century ago, China has constructed the world's third-largest highway network, now at 21,000 miles; built outside Shanghai its first Formula One race track; spawned a craze in drive-in movies, with some offering up to six screens; and, even more impressive, has surpassed the five-million mark in sales last year to oust Germany as the third largest global auto market.

Chinese tastes in cars subordinate performance, however, unlike those in the U.S. or Europe. Fancy interiors including leather, wood, and backseat video screens are favored over zero-to-60 speeds. Long highway trips are still frowned on, possibly because the government forbids topographical road maps; and the country has an abundance of dialects and cuisines, which inhibit independent adventuring. Also plentiful, though, is a crushing world-leading highway crash fatality total averaging 680 a day, versus 115 in the U.S., and noxious smog over the largest cities, like Beijing, where 12 million reside who have so far acquired two million cars, one quarter of them in just the past two years.

With a 1.5 billion population, China seems destined to eclipse Japan as the second-largest market (5.9 million sold in 2004) by 2007 or 2008, according to Ford's China sales chief, Dave Thomas. All this among an unmistakable growth sign: Those ubiquitous bikes are fading away, like the horses and buggies we saw here 100 years ago. -Mac Gordon"

http://www.thecarconnection.com/Industry/Daily_Edition/Daily_Edition_Jun_7_2005.S173.A8727.html

Sandy
06-07-05, 09:31 AM
I hate to get political, but cannot help myself. The next thing you will witness will be President Bush aiding & abetting the Chinese government as well as the chinese auto manufacturers in setting up export/import relief to ship cars to America, and then the formation of low interest loans and other enticements that I cannot think of, to set up shop, here in America and export their cars here, and then to eventually buy land here & build assembly plants on that land and be granted tax-free property for 25 or so years IF they hire Americans for their lowest paying jobs therein. Be sure to watch for Bush at the ribbon cutting ceremonies of the Da Wah motor car company, all smiles and wishing them the best of everything.
Funny, I did not see Bush at the demolation of the Linden NJ GM assembly plant that makes Blazers & pick ups, NOR at the Edison, NJ Ford plant's demolition that made Rangers and before that Mustangs, and before that Mercurys, that got cleared away to make room for a Wal Mart Super Center to sell billions of dollars worth of Chinese & Japanese goods. Nor, did I see Bush at the closing of the Ramsey NJ Ford plant - that I believe made engines. 3 weeks ago - on the day that GM posted a big loss and the NYC markets relagated GM Bonds to JUNK status and it made all the news.....where WAS our president on THAT day? Why he was at the Nissan plant in Tenn. saluting them. Exactly a week later, when Ford Credit was demoted to 1-step above Junk Status, where was Bush on THAT day?
Saluting the all new Hyundai assembly plant, that's where.
More than likely on the day GM goes bankrupt, Bush will be at the opening of the first Chinese owned/controled automotive assembly plant in America, perhaps smiling & driving the first Bing-Toy Coupe off the line! Geeez!

HotRodSaint
06-07-05, 10:25 AM
Funny, I did not see Bush at the demolation of the Linden NJ GM assembly plant that makes Blazers & pick ups, NOR at the Edison, NJ Ford plant's demolition that made Rangers and before that Mustangs, and before that Mercurys, that got cleared away to make room for a Wal Mart Super Center to sell billions of dollars worth of Chinese & Japanese goods.

I feel your pain! But, I think your dog is barking up the wrong tree.

Walmart buys 18 billion dollars worth of goods from China, and something like 45 billion from the US. The anti-corporate doomsayers, never mention this.

Also, Bush predecessor didn't show up in Van Nuys California, to watch the destruction of GM's Camaro/Firebird plant amongst others that were decommissioned.

And until the government takes over responibility for the design, manufacturing, distribution and marketing of vehicles, I am hesitant to blame the government for the closing of any factory.

But maybe they should take control of the unions, in the name of national security?

And lastly, a factory in the middle of one of the hottest real estate markets is probably worth closing to get the equity out to invest elsewhere, instead of spending to upgrade it to todays standards. Much like the US government is looking to close military bases, to save and raise money.

You either lead, follow or get out of the way. GM hasn't been a leader in many, many years. Following has kept them afloat for the last 20 years, but they are about to be pushed aside if they don't return to a leadership position soon.

If GM made an entry level, 4 cylinder RWD car, they'd have no competition and the basis for a great tuner product. Innovation is what they need now, RIGHT NOW!!

HotRodSaint
06-07-05, 10:29 AM
I should also remind you, that it was Clinton who pushed for China to be accepted into the WORLD TRADE ORGANIZATION.

weister42
06-07-05, 12:57 PM
Ya know I really don't care where any of my belongings are made from, as long as it works like it should then I'm happy.

Let's see...my cell is made in Korea, my speakers and amps are made in Taiwan/japan/Mexico, my car is made in the US(Cadillacs are made in the US right?), my TV is made in China, my computer monitor is made in Thailand, my custom computer is made in Taiwan/korea/Mexico/China/Philipines, my bed in made in China, all of my kitchenware are made in China, my lothes are mae in Mexico/China, this chair I'm sitting on is made in China, this pen I'm using right now is made in China...

Americans need to stop thinking how this is the greatest country or however u wanna call it, I mean ya we have the best military, the best sports team and the best overall education, but without all the other people in this world the United States won't be where it's at right now.

Sandy
06-07-05, 02:57 PM
I should also remind you, that it was Clinton who pushed for China to be accepted into the WORLD TRADE ORGANIZATION.

'Ya, I know this, and I was mad-as-H at him then for doing that.
I don't think any good is gonna come of it.

davesdeville
06-08-05, 12:19 AM
Walmart buys 18 billion dollars worth of goods from China, and something like 45 billion from the US. The anti-corporate doomsayers, never mention this.

Do you happen to know where you read this? Cause looking through the shelves of Walmart yesterday not a whole lot of things said "Made in USA." I hate Walmart for the record, it's a crappy shopping experiance, but it was the only thing open at 11pm when we needed some power wire.

Ralph
06-08-05, 02:53 AM
the best sports team

That's because all our hockey players (the good ones) moved to the States. :sneaky:

Sad but true.

HotRodSaint
06-09-05, 11:04 AM
Do you happen to know where you read this? Cause looking through the shelves of Walmart yesterday not a whole lot of things said "Made in USA."

I didn't read it, I heard it from an executive who was being interviewed on the radio. I didn't catch his name either. :(

Ralph
06-21-05, 07:11 PM
http://www.americancarfans.com/news.cfm/newsid/2050601.004/generalmotors/1.html

"Shanghai GM’s new plant consists of three shops – body, paint and general assembly – and occupies a total area of 180,000 square meters. Construction was completed in 20 months, a record for China’s automotive industry.

The initial annual capacity of the new plant, which operates on two shifts and has 941 employees, is 170,000 vehicles. It officially began production of the Buick Excelle lower-medium sedan, Buick Excelle HRV hatchback and Cadillac CTS luxury sedan today.

“As part of the $3 billion in new investments in China announced by GM last June, the new facility demonstrates our confidence in the long-term prospect of the country’s vehicle market and our full commitment to grow aggressively with the market,” said Gubbey.

Shanghai GM currently has one of the largest product and brand portfolios among joint venture automakers in China. Its lineup of Cadillac, Buick and Chevrolet products covers segments ranging from luxury vehicles to small cars. The joint venture between GM and Shanghai Automotive Industry Corp. Group (SAIC) plans to launch an unprecedented number of new products this year."

94devilleDM5
06-22-05, 08:20 PM
this is probably a good thing. i heard there was, for the first time, a labor shortage in china. that means pay goes up, and prices go up, and the difference between their poverty and near slave labor and our standard of living will decrease and companies won't go offshore anymore. walmart, american car companies and disney world will bring communist china down, not american military power. (lets call that plan b). eventually the chinese will get enough jobs and money, and have so much american corperate influence from walmart that capitolism will develop itself and unions will take down the communists, then the economical differences will balance and there will be fair trade and jobs for every american, yay.

Ralph
06-27-05, 01:07 AM
this is probably a good thing. i heard there was, for the first time, a labor shortage in china.

At this point, I doubt there could be a labour shortage in China??

Link??

Playdrv4me
06-27-05, 01:17 AM
this is probably a good thing. i heard there was, for the first time, a labor shortage in china. that means pay goes up, and prices go up, and the difference between their poverty and near slave labor and our standard of living will decrease and companies won't go offshore anymore. walmart, american car companies and disney world will bring communist china down, not american military power. (lets call that plan b). eventually the chinese will get enough jobs and money, and have so much american corperate influence from walmart that capitolism will develop itself and unions will take down the communists, then the economical differences will balance and there will be fair trade and jobs for every american, yay.

:wtf:

Ralph
06-27-05, 01:21 AM
:wtf:

:histeric:

Playdrv4me
06-27-05, 01:25 AM
:histeric:

lol... I swear I read that post about 4 times all the way through... and I think I came up with a different conclusion each time...

Ralph
06-27-05, 01:30 AM
lol... I swear I read that post about 4 times all the way through... and I think I came up with a different conclusion each time...
LOL, China is probably the LAST place there could be a labour shortage....with a 1.5 BILLION population....I mean, they can't be getting THAT rich and fat already where they don't want to work anymore :hmm: :suspense: :drinker

I have a bad feeling it's CHINA that will "bring down" the NA economy, and NOT the other way around.

The Koreans too. :sneaky: Hell, do they even have Wallmart in China?? Do we care? :cookoo:

adam_mcd
06-27-05, 04:05 AM
damnit all to hell..the advent of "made in (insert country here) stamping on vehicles is upon us

"And American manufacturers never bothered to engineer their cars for the Japanese market, as the Japanese do for America and Europe. Actually, Detroit still doesn't."

high five, america!

Ralph
06-28-05, 12:24 AM
damnit all to hell..the advent of "made in (insert country here) stamping on vehicles is upon us

"And American manufacturers never bothered to engineer their cars for the Japanese market, as the Japanese do for America and Europe. Actually, Detroit still doesn't."

high five, america!

Except this is why America can't make any money with their cars in Japan and Europe. (Though Jeeps and Chryslers are becoming more common in Europe). Thus the auto trade deficit.

N0DIH
06-30-05, 08:38 PM
I wish the US would enforce some equal trade relations. You want to sell something here? Great! You will sell the US made competing product there.

Or make it so the $ amount in trade is equal. This should apply to ALL countries. You sell here, you also buy stuff from here. Then and only then would I consider buying another country's car.

That is my main frustration with the Japanese market, whether or not they make quality cars any different then here (believe me, that remains to be seen, and Consumer Reports IS biased to Japan, thier own data proves it!), is the reluctance of the Japanese government to allow US made cars sold there. They have 50 Million people there, we have 300 Million here, ok, that is a 6:1 margin. For every 6 of thier cars sold here 1 US car MUST be sold there, else, imports will be restricted to meet that. If Japanese gov tries to put stiff taxes on imports, then we will match dollar for dollar. This will not be tolerated.

Taxes on import cars that do not have 85% or more LOCALLY sourced content will be taxed on the amount of the car sold. So if it is 50% locally sourced and 50% imported parts, then it will be taxed 50% as an imported car, even if it was assembled here. Trust me, the only reason Japan builds cars here is to avoid import taxes, it has nothing to do with jobs other than PR.

Ralph
07-06-05, 06:09 PM
I wish the US would enforce some equal trade relations. You want to sell something here? Great! You will sell the US made competing product there.

Or make it so the $ amount in trade is equal. This should apply to ALL countries. You sell here, you also buy stuff from here. Then and only then would I consider buying another country's car.

That is my main frustration with the Japanese market, whether or not they make quality cars any different then here (believe me, that remains to be seen, and Consumer Reports IS biased to Japan, thier own data proves it!), is the reluctance of the Japanese government to allow US made cars sold there. They have 50 Million people there, we have 300 Million here, ok, that is a 6:1 margin. For every 6 of thier cars sold here 1 US car MUST be sold there, else, imports will be restricted to meet that. If Japanese gov tries to put stiff taxes on imports, then we will match dollar for dollar. This will not be tolerated.

Taxes on import cars that do not have 85% or more LOCALLY sourced content will be taxed on the amount of the car sold. So if it is 50% locally sourced and 50% imported parts, then it will be taxed 50% as an imported car, even if it was assembled here. Trust me, the only reason Japan builds cars here is to avoid import taxes, it has nothing to do with jobs other than PR.

Sometimes I wish the U.S. would just "dump" a bunch of affordable cheap little Chevys in China and Japan and see how they like it and what it does to their economy. I wonder if they would even buy them in the end...or would they only support their own product??

Ralph
08-17-05, 10:51 PM
This looks like the beginning of the Chinese invasion.

http://www.thecarconnection.com/Industry/Industry_News/Bricklin_Signs_Dealers_Feuds_with_GM.S175.A9084.ht ml

"A total of 25 dealers have already signed on with Visionary to sell the cars from Chery ... The vehicles will come from Chery, which has already brought in Italian designers to help prepare a full line of vehicles for the U.S. market. The objective is to sell the very best vehicles at prices 30 to 40 percent below those sold by established competitors such as Toyota or General Motors Corp."

HotRodSaint
08-18-05, 10:13 AM
This looks like the beginning of the Chinese invasion.

Wake me up if and when the Koreans make a big dent in our market, then I'll start to worry about the Chinese. But so far, the Koreans are a side note in history, despite the gloom and doom of the naysayers of the '80's and '90's.

And interestingly, GM and Chrysler control the Koreans. So it's just a matter of time before GM and Toyota control the Chinese.

Ralph
08-18-05, 11:23 PM
Wake me up if and when the Koreans make a big dent in our market, then I'll start to worry about the Chinese. But so far, the Koreans are a side note in history, despite the gloom and doom of the naysayers of the '80's and '90's.

And interestingly, GM and Chrysler control the Koreans. So it's just a matter of time before GM and Toyota control the Chinese.

You are dead wrong on the Koreans making a dent. They sold 690,000 cars in the U.S. market last year. And they are rising very fast. That's about 4.2%, which is a serious foothold. Hyundai alone sold 420,000 which is huge by any measuring stick.

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2005/08/17/140457.html

Any foreign company which sets up a factory on American soil is hardly a footnote in history. It demonstrates a confidence that they will expand ever further.

GM and Chrysler do not control the Koreans. GM owns Daewoo, which used to sell globally, but has been scaled back primarily to its home market (and hasn't necessarily paid back GM's investment). As far as I know, DCX doesn't own any serious piece of the Koreans. Ford had a share of Kia in the 1980s, but sold off most of their investment in the 1990s. (Hyundai now owns almost all of Kia). Samsung Motor Co. is owned by Renault-Nissan. Ssangyong is now owned by SAIC (a teensy-tiny Chinese company which will go nowhere).

Considering the rapid growth of the Chinese and Korean car companies, and the impending funding shortages at GM and Ford, it is far more likely that the Asians will follow the Germans' lead, and acquire some American subsidiaries.

Just as the Koreans have been imitating the Japanese strategies (like Hyundai's possible new luxury division), the Chinese are emulating the Koreans. Build 'em cheap, sell 'em fast to American buyers, then focus on quality, and move upscale.

http://cadillacforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42688

HotRodSaint
08-20-05, 11:47 AM
You are dead wrong on the Koreans making a dent. They sold 690,000 cars in the U.S. market last year. And they are rising very fast. That's about 4.2%, which is a serious foothold. Hyundai alone sold 420,000 which is huge by any measuring stick.

So the Koreans sold 690,000 car's in the US last year, of which about 70% of the Korean car's sold were Hyundai's, and that's a huge foothold for the Korean auto industry?

Let's put those numbers in perspective. Ford sold 939,511 F-series trucks. American Honda sold 551,109 Trucks and 843,289 cars for a total of 1,394,847 units.

So after 20+ years in the US market if this is the best that the Korean auto industry can do, then I have no fear of Chinese car's or Yugoslavian or Indian or Malaysian or whatever country is the latest gloom and doomers feared export country.

addison_ii
08-20-05, 02:33 PM
To all my fellow forum pals. I am a GM man. My father worked for GM, 4 uncles worked for GM. I have had at leats 16 cars and all were GM except a 1980 MB and a 1995 Intrepid still made Dodge. I will not buy an import. I will continue to buy GM or Ford as these are U.S. companies and I feel I am doing my part to help the U.S. auto industry to survive. If we continue to outsource jobs and let importers bring in their goods and services while we are exporting(except our jobs and money) very little to their country this will lead to many U.S. staples being taken over by the companies who were at one time start-ups. I believe in survival of the fittest but at the same time I think in order to survive the U.S. needs to adapt and flood China, Japan, and Korea's boders with low cost N.A. goods. Buy up their small companies and slowly but surely make their way into their markets and see how they like it.
You either lead, follow or get out of the way. GM hasn't been a leader in many, many years. Following has kept them afloat for the last 20 years, but they are about to be pushed aside if they don't return to a leadership position soon. I agree 100%. We need to stop being so nice and considerate and think of our future for once.

Ralph
08-20-05, 03:09 PM
So the Koreans sold 690,000 car's in the US last year, of which about 70% of the Korean car's sold were Hyundai's, and that's a huge foothold for the Korean auto industry?

Let's put those numbers in perspective. Ford sold 939,511 F-series trucks. American Honda sold 551,109 Trucks and 843,289 cars for a total of 1,394,847 units.

So after 20+ years in the US market if this is the best that the Korean auto industry can do, then I have no fear of Chinese car's or Yugoslavian or Indian or Malaysian or whatever country is the latest gloom and doomers feared export country.

Again, you continue to TWIST my words, I said not a "huge" foothold, but a SERIOUS foothold, and only getting stronger! They have most definately made a "dent" and as I've mentioned they are going to become even bigger, and they are serious about it as evidenced by Hyundai planning an ultra-luxury vehicle to compete with the likes of Cadillac under an entirely different name and seperate namesake.

The Koreans have made such serious inroads into NA. (that was the point if you re-read) You cannot shrug off that many sales. That's VERY likely a larger number of sales than all of Cadillac! Like I mentioned, any auto manufacturer that sets up in the U.S. is dead serious about making even more inroads. This cannot be denied and if you don't care to understand this, or seriously consider it and heed the warning signs, just take a look at some simple history of what Japan did with Honda and Toyota. Now the chinese will follow suit so you'd better "wake up" because in the future you may be slaving for a Chinese or Japanese employer.

Typical "short-sightedness."

What's that old expression....."Pride Commeth Before A Fall."

Ralph
08-20-05, 03:13 PM
I think in order to survive the U.S. needs to adapt and flood China, Japan, and Korea's boders with low cost N.A. goods. Buy up their small companies and slowly but surely make their way into their markets and see how they like it. I agree 100%. We need to stop being so nice and considerate and think of our future for once.

GM needs to dump a bunch of crappy little small econoboxes in Japan and see how they like it. See how it effects their economy. I've been saying that for a while now but I doubt they would allow it, or buy them knowing that it might put their workers out of work..

HotRodSaint
08-20-05, 03:15 PM
And to further place this hysteria over China in perspective, the current #1 vehicle seller in China this year through June has sold 308,722.

What 'feared' Chinese company holds that number one spot?

General Motors!! :yup:

Maybe we should teach the Chinese to be more myopic so that they will stop buying Buicks, Chevy's and Cadillacs.

HotRodSaint
08-20-05, 03:20 PM
...in the future you may be slaving for a Chinese or Japanese employer.

We completed work on a styling buck for a Korean auto maker last month, and we are finishing up work on a Detroit show car for a Japanese auto maker.

So as long as they pay me for our services, I don't care if they are a Canadian! :thumbsup:

Ralph
08-20-05, 03:26 PM
And to further place this hysteria over China in perspective, the current #1 vehicle seller in China this year through June has sold 308,722.

What 'feared' Chinese company holds that number one spot?

General Motors!! :yup:

Maybe we should teach the Chinese to be more myopic so that they will stop buying Buicks, Chevy's and Cadillacs.

I think the U.S. needs more protectionism. At least seriously look into it. You have to protect your economy as well as your future economy, etc. GM does not need more layoffs but when millions of Americans are buying the Chinese vehicles we'll see if I'm correct. It may take a while for the Chinese to get "powerful" and it won't happen overnight, (no need for "hysteria" just yet) but who would have thought Honda and Toyota would ever have amounted to more than a joke back in the early days...

HotRodSaint
08-27-05, 03:44 PM
While millions of young Chinese were studying every word in Chairman Mao’s Little Red Book during the 1970s, businesspeople in the Land of the Rising Sun were trying to learn how to improve quality standards, motivate workers to be more loyal to the organization, and redesign products for Western tastes. (http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=4768)

Except for applying Sun Tzu’s tactics used in The Art of War to business strategy, China has yet to make a major contribution to how modern businesses should operate and improve their efficiency.

HotRodSaint
08-28-05, 08:57 PM
China losing cheap labor allure (http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0508/28/B01-295057.htm)

While U.S. companies are still moving to China, industry experts say momentum has slowed, and a question that seemed unthinkable even a year ago now is being asked in the offices of Michigan auto suppliers: Is it really cheaper to produce parts in China?

HotRodSaint
09-20-05, 10:05 AM
Visitors to the Frankfurt car show seemed more impressed by the brightly painted Beijing opera performers and entertainers dressed up as monkeys than by the smattering of Chinese vehicles on display. (http://www.detnews.com/2005/insiders/0509/20/C01-320391.htm)

China's auto industry will undoubtedly boost global competition by several notches, says Carlos Ghosn, CEO of both alliance partners Renault SA and Nissan Motor Co. But the most formidable competitors may not be the Chinese companies now rushing to be the first to export vehicles.

"What they can do, we can do, because we are now in China," Ghosn said, referring to the ventures formed by Chinese companies and global automakers. The ventures have the dual advantage of low Chinese wages and the technological and production know-how of the world's best auto companies. Honda Motor Co. has already begun exporting a Chinese-built compact, the Jazz, to Europe.

"Global automakers established in China are going to be more efficient and they're going to be competing against each other in other markets," Ghosn said. If China's carmakers can copy technology fast enough and grab market share by making appealing and reliable vehicles, "well," said Ghosn, "then welcome to the club."

Ralph
09-20-05, 03:40 PM
Chinese Pose "Daunting" Challenge

The unprecedented display of three separate Chinese brands at this year's Frankfurt Motor Show underscores the "daunting" threat they pose to the established order in Europe and theU.S., said Chrysler Group marketing chief Joe Eberhardt. Though only one of the three is yet on sale in Europe, and none have yet come to the U.S, Eberhardt told TheCarConnection, "it is undeniable they will have a significant impact." And quickly, he fears. The DaimlerChrysler executive noted that it took the Japanese more than 20 years to become serious competitors in Western markets, and the South Koreans, "half that time." With the assistance of foreign partners, Chinese manufacturers could move even faster, once they venture outside their own borders, he said, adding, "It's just the trend to globalization in every segment in every market." -Paul A. Eisenstein

http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto_News/Daily_Edition/Daily_Edition_Sep_19_2005.S173.A9277.html

Then there is the notion that we also have ourselves to blame for this, in that we helped China get their economy get off the ground.

HotRodSaint
09-30-05, 10:03 AM
“Ten years ahead, we think they will compete in all world markets, not just Europe, as equals in size to (current major auto makers). Their main competitive asset will be price. Their products will not be comparable to cars made in other countries, where technology is more developed." (http://wardsauto.com/ar/auto_chinas_design_europe/index.htm)

The German automobile club ADAC recently road-tested the Jiangling Motors Group Landwind, a Chinese 4-wheel-drive SUV that sells for about €17,000 ($21,130). The vehicle is the first Chinese-made vehicle available in Western Europe and is nearly half the price of competitors.

ADAC said it was the worst vehicle it had ever tested for safety and suggested the SUV be barred from European roads.

"China has huge potential in terms of what we can supply to them and what they can supply to us," says a spokesman for Britain’s Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders. "But the initial offerings from China, particularly those shown at the Frankfurt show, don’t inspire much confidence.

"There is a feeling that Chinese vehicle manufacturers will have to up their game to meet the standards required for the European market,” he continues.

“You could argue that with their strategic partnerships with Western auto manufacturers they have the capacity to up their game in the short to medium term.

“Does that mean they will become a long-term threat in terms of large volumes in the European markets? The answer I suppose is yes," he concludes. “But presumably prices will have to rise to reflect the better quality of vehicle.”

Ralph
10-26-05, 11:41 PM
Looks like Chery is planning on being at the Chicago auto show.

http://www.thecarconnection.com/Enthusiasts/Spy_Shots/Spy_Shots_08_Chery_Crossover.S178.A9522.html

RobertCTS
10-27-05, 09:22 AM
TO MANY POSTS FOR ME TO READ THEM ALL. AT THE POSSIBILITY OF BEING REDUNDANT:
I know its a world market. I can't change that but I don't have to like it.
It bothers me that I have a German differential and a friggin' French transmission in my Caddy. I'm not going to make it worse by putting a foreign name plate on it.

I've experienced war and many of these industrial automakers were Our enimies and killed a lot of our allies and American Soldiers. That still bothers me today. I'm told to move on and forgive and forget..but it's usually by someone who never experienced the atrocities.

I think the American car market offer a great number of excellent autombiles for every class of driving. Isee or feel no need to look at imported cars. Even if the Foreign manufacturer makes them here in the United States. If they weren'y here manufacturing their Ricers we would be selling more American cars.
http://usera.imagecave.com/BobsWork/flag.jpg

Ralph
10-29-05, 11:15 PM
TO MANY POSTS FOR ME TO READ THEM ALL. AT THE POSSIBILITY OF BEING REDUNDANT:
I know its a world market. I can't change that but I don't have to like it.
It bothers me that I have a German differential and a friggin' French transmission in my Caddy. I'm not going to make it worse by putting a foreign name plate on it.

I've experienced war and many of these industrial automakers were Our enimies and killed a lot of our allies and American Soldiers. That still bothers me today. I'm told to move on and forgive and forget..but it's usually by someone who never experienced the atrocities.

I think the American car market offer a great number of excellent autombiles for every class of driving. Isee or feel no need to look at imported cars. Even if the Foreign manufacturer makes them here in the United States. If they weren'y here manufacturing their Ricers we would be selling more American cars.
http://usera.imagecave.com/BobsWork/flag.jpg

The upside of a global car market is that it has forced and continues to force companies to build better cars. American companies still lag behind in building truly world-class smal cars, which will become more important in the future as the price of fuel goes up. And there's no rule that says American companies can't export their cars to other markets too. Which is what they should be doing anyways - especially Cadillac.

HotRodSaint
10-31-05, 09:58 AM
Cash shortage halts work on US-market models (http://europe.autonews.com/article.cms?articleId=56798)

"The US market is unique," he says. "US people don't care about fuel economy, they only want horsepower."

The manager is encouraged by a recent shift to smaller models in the US because of skyrocketing fuel prices. He adds: "We will be happy if the US comes closer to other markets" in terms of tastes.

Chery's development of vehicles for export to the US has halted because of a lack of funding from Visionary Vehicles LLC, Chery's US distributor.

"We need to have some kind of contract and some kind of initial funding," a Chery manager working on the export models says.

The agreement with Visionary Vehicles to distribute five Chery models in the US in 2007 is only a verbal agreement, he says.

Chery engineers are also awaiting some final information from Visionary Vehicles, such as what engine size to put in the US-bound models and what quality the interiors should be, another Chery manager says.

Visionary Vehicle's failure to sign dealers is the reason behind both problems, the Chery managers believe.

Automotive entrepreneur Malcolm Bricklin announced in February that he would begin importing five China-made cars to the US in 2007.

Those cars would be sold through 250 dealerships, each costing $15 million (currently E12 million) to build.

But signing dealers has been tough without sample models to show potential investors.

So far, the only confirmed US dealer is Tim Ciasulli of Union, New Jersey. He paid $2 million for the right to build a Chery dealership. Visionary Vehicles says other dealers have been signed, but won't disclose details.

Developing cars for the US also has proved tougher than engineers anticipated, say the Chery managers and Chery suppliers.

"Originally, we did underestimate the amount of time it takes to get all the permits" for selling models in the US, a manager involved in model development says.

Safety demands

Chery engineers also underestimated the safety standards and quality level the US market demands, a Chery supplier says.

"Chery rushed quickly from the design studio to the production stage, but left out real engineering in the middle. The suppliers have to go back and do it the right way to be in line with US standards for safety and performance," the supplier says.

Interiors were also a problem, he adds. For example, Chery picked colors, materials and interior wood trim that did not match US and European driver preferences, he says. In addition, instrument clusters and audio systems were not in line with Western tastes.

Says the supplier: "Engineering needs to work side by side [with the designers] to make the designs feasible and in line with the regulatory environment."