: Age -vs- Purchasing Preferances



Sandy
10-26-03, 12:52 PM
Ever notice this....
A really high percentage of persons today who are over 60 will not purchase ANY German car, because they recall 1939-1943. An equally high percentage of 55-ish folks will not purchase any Asian car, as they were possibly in service at the time of Pearl Harbor. However, even though they may be the offspring of these people, today's youth-to 45 years of age have no problem buying Asian or German cars.
Leads me to this question. How would YOU feel, if in 20 years your kid bought a new car sourced from Iraq or Afghanistan? (and) Don't think it can't happen, look at the cars Korea is turning out.

gothicaleigh
10-26-03, 01:03 PM
I'm 25 and have a '03 CTS. Really wouldn't mind a German car (almost bought a 3 series...) but the Asians just aren't attractive to me (the 350Z and G35 are nice but feel cheap to me when I test drove them).

As for the Middle east... If they brought out a competitive car that I liked over my CTS I would buy one tomorrow. People should focus on world economy (we're all in this together) rather than keeping an 'us versus them' mentality.

Elvis
10-26-03, 01:40 PM
Ever notice this....
A really high percentage of persons today who are over 60 will not purchase ANY German car, because they recall 1939-1943. An equally high percentage of 55-ish folks will not purchase any Asian car, as they were possibly in service at the time of Pearl Harbor. However, even though they may be the offspring of these people, today's youth-to 45 years of age have no problem buying Asian or German cars.
Leads me to this question. How would YOU feel, if in 20 years your kid bought a new car sourced from Iraq or Afghanistan? (and) Don't think it can't happen, look at the cars Korea is turning out.

Pearl Harbor was 62 years ago. I read somewhere a few years ago that WWII veterans were dying at the rate of 1000 per day. The YOUNGEST WWII vets are now approaching 80. Not a whole lot of them are buying cars anymore. Your statements were ALL true in 1983.

German & Japanese automakers' improved reliability, providing what the American market demands, and the next generation of buyers not having animosity towards them all play a role in their success in this country. And of course you have to throw in the decline in American quality. (Thanks, UAW!)

My father is 63, he's had three Acuras and two Mercedes. I really don't care as long as the car is a quality machine. I'm seriously looking at American cars this time as a post-9/11 reaction.

Spike
10-26-03, 01:48 PM
Blaming the people of the present, for the crimes of politicians/dictatorships of the past?

Yup, I have owned BMWs, Hondas, and Mitsubishis in the last 10 years.

Does that make me some kind of AXIS supporting traitor in the service of Hitler and Hirohito? I guess some people don't realize that time advances, the world isn't a static place. I guess we really do inherit inherit the crimes of our fathers?

It is impossible to point at an ethnic group or nation and label them BAD, and expect that label to apply 5, 10, 50 years later. Sounds very narrow minded, biggoted, and unethical/immoral.

According to those people we Americans must still go around tossing nuclear bombs on civilian populations, killing millions of women and children instead of sending our military in and risking USGI lives, maybe we still lock up japanese people assuming them all to be spies and sabotures, allow slavery for the economic benefit of wealthy land owners, enforce race segregation in public for the general well being of the white population, work small children to death for pennies a day in filthy coal mines and factories, and slaughter indigenous natives to clear the way for "true" Americans... those savage Canadians and Mexicans better watch out!! America's right of imminent domain is headed their way - we need another 50 states, and those pesky indigenous savages are going to have to be relocataed or (better yet) simply slaughtered! Time to introduce those vermin to some smallpox infected blankets for the good of our nation.

I know what you say is true though, and it's really sad so many people still feel that way. I can see it and understand it for a few years after something as horrible as WWII but 60 years later is just plain ignorance
:mad:

bob2231
10-26-03, 04:56 PM
Ever notice this....
A really high percentage of persons today who are over 60 will not purchase ANY German car, because they recall 1939-1943. An equally high percentage of 55-ish folks will not purchase any Asian car, as they were possibly in service at the time of Pearl Harbor. However, even though they may be the offspring of these people, today's youth-to 45 years of age have no problem buying Asian or German cars.
Leads me to this question. How would YOU feel, if in 20 years your kid bought a new car sourced from Iraq or Afghanistan? (and) Don't think it can't happen, look at the cars Korea is turning out.
Looks like you started something ugly here Sandy. For a few months after 9/11 it was generally ok to be proud of America, and to support it.
Now though, it's remote enough that selfishness has taken over again. One reply to your question was half right referring to the "world economy". But the wat the world economy works is, we go into a country, show them how to use resources and compete in the world market, pay for everything, then they tell us to get the hell out. And if we don't leave fast enough they fly a plane into something.
I remember in the late 60's and early 70's you saw a lot of "Buy American" bumper stickers. Sadly, if you go look up most of those people today they're driving imports. America has this unfortunate streak of " I got mine, screw you"

bob2231
10-26-03, 05:10 PM
Pearl Harbor was 62 years ago. I read somewhere a few years ago that WWII veterans were dying at the rate of 1000 per day. The YOUNGEST WWII vets are now approaching 80. Not a whole lot of them are buying cars anymore. Your statements were ALL true in 1983.

German & Japanese automakers' improved reliability, providing what the American market demands, and the next generation of buyers not having animosity towards them all play a role in their success in this country. And of course you have to throw in the decline in American quality. (Thanks, UAW!)

My father is 63, he's had three Acuras and two Mercedes. I really don't care as long as the car is a quality machine. I'm seriously looking at American cars this time as a post-9/11 reaction.

A quick question Elvis. What part of the auto industry did you work in ? In the 11 years I was in the UAW, if I remember right, the line workers installed the parts that someone else designed, developed , ordered and bought. The UAW didn't have one freaking word of say in the quality of the components the workers were supplied with. So now let's all hear about some fifth hand story about a door that was installed with no screws. On a Monday. By a blind, drunk, drug addicted, aids spreading UAW member who only showed up for work to satisfy his parole officer. Happens all the time ! And that damned UAW wouldn't let the poor manufacturer fire him !
And let's not forget how much those illiterate hillbillies make either ! Right ? $20, $22\hour ? Why, I think I'll just sit here watching those starving NFL players and spout some more crap about how they deserve every penny they make because of the enjoyment they bring to my mundane life. Wow ! If only Warren Sapp could get a job on an auto line !
So Elvis, where was it you work ?

Sandy
10-26-03, 06:09 PM
Boy! Gosh! Did I ever open a can of pent-up emotions.

Well, what caused this is....
I recently attended a speaker (guest) at a fairly large VFW hall. Not being of (how to say it) ? Ahhh, foreign-car friendly mind, I was pleasantly surprised that the parking lot held (yes, I counted) 45 cars. I looked real hard, and could only find 2 foreign cars, a Camry & a Diamante. The other 43 were pretty evenly split beween 40% & 40% GM & Ford and about 19% Chrysler. My friend said to me, "These guys will not buy foreign, they believe in BUY AMERICAN, and support America!

THAT guys is what prompted my question, which in turn unleased some old Texas-style Chilli replies :mad: Hot Sizzle!

bob2231
10-26-03, 06:43 PM
Boy! Gosh! Did I ever open a can of pent-up emotions.

Well, what caused this is....
I recently attended a speaker (guest) at a fairly large VFW hall. Not being of (how to say it) ? Ahhh, foreign-car friendly mind, I was pleasantly surprised that the parking lot held (yes, I counted) 45 cars. I looked real hard, and could only find 2 foreign cars, a Camry & a Diamante. The other 43 were pretty evenly split beween 40% & 40% GM & Ford and about 19% Chrysler. My friend said to me, "These guys will not buy foreign, they believe in BUY AMERICAN, and support America!

THAT guys is what prompted my question, which in turn unleased some old Texas-style Chilli replies :mad: Hot Sizzle!

Well, sorry I got a bit irritated, but it gets old beeing blamed for all the ills in the auto industry.If I was so overpaid and underworked as a Die Maker, why are there so many kids in here with newer, more expensive cars than mine ?
It's kind of funny that people bitch and moan about America, but before they canned the INS I don't think they had a huge waiting list of people applying for emmigration visas. Oh well, everyone has a right to their opinion. I guess I'm old.
Bob

HotRodSaint
10-26-03, 06:58 PM
In the 11 years I was in the UAW, if I remember right, the line workers installed the parts that someone else designed, developed , ordered and bought. The UAW didn't have one freaking word of say in the quality of the components the workers were supplied with.
I'm not pro-union. And I don't want to irritate you any further. But I think unions have run their coarse in America.

Why does the UAW have to pick a fight every year with one of the auto makers? The rest of the country is being laid off or taking pay cuts during a recession, but the union keeps seeking more and more. Which is great, we all want more. But you shouldn't complain when a Japanese car (made in a non-union US factory) is cheaper and has better quality.

No, you can't blame the union workers for poor quality. But wouldn't it be wiser to let automakers spend their money on R&D and plant upgrades to keep us competitive rather than forcing them to keep old and outdated factories open just so we don;t have to relocate a union member to another state?

I'm for Federalizing Unions and then dimantling them. They were good for the workers back before OSHA and trial lawyers. I find more self value in the ability to negotiate one on one for the worth I alone bring to the company.

Elvis
10-26-03, 07:16 PM
Flame away, Bob. The truth is that the high salaries demanded by the UAW for jobs like sweeping floors (an uncle of mine made $27.50/hr to do that in the late '70s) is what led the "Big Three" to cut costs. I never said anything about lazy workers. I said UAW.

Need documentation? okay. The companies with higher build quality reputations are avoiding the UAW like the plague.

http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/uaw27_20030827.htm

and no, I don't need to give you a fifth-hand story. It's in the news several times a year...

http://www.click2houston.com/sh/news/wisconsin/stories/news-wisconsin-20000927-221541.html

and yet, the UAW opposes drug testing?

http://www.cleartest.com/testinfo/uaw.html

Flame all you want, a constructive debate would be to produce links confirming your opinions. All I did was state one of mine. You're entitled to yours, too. But I'm not going to get sarcastic with you or flame you about it.

the Sandman
10-26-03, 07:22 PM
Flame all you want, a constructive debate would be to produce links confirming your opinions. All I did was state one of mine. You're entitled to yours, too. But I'm not going to get sarcastic with you or flame you about it.Well said Elvis.

This is a controversial topic. It *must* remain civil...

bob2231
10-26-03, 08:11 PM
I'm not pro-union. And I don't want to irritate you any further. But I think unions have run their coarse in America.

Why does the UAW have to pick a fight every year with one of the auto makers? The rest of the country is being laid off or taking pay cuts during a recession, but the union keeps seeking more and more. Which is great, we all want more. But you shouldn't complain when a Japanese car (made in a non-union US factory) is cheaper and has better quality.

No, you can't blame the union workers for poor quality. But wouldn't it be wiser to let automakers spend their money on R&D and plant upgrades to keep us competitive rather than forcing them to keep old and outdated factories open just so we don;t have to relocate a union member to another state?

I'm for Federalizing Unions and then dimantling them. They were good for the workers back before OSHA and trial lawyers. I find more self value in the ability to negotiate one on one for the worth I alone bring to the company.

There's really not much point in arguing this. I've found that changing someone's opinion on this, either way, is about impossible. But I'm going to address some misconceptions that many people seem to have about unions in general, and the UAW specifically. I have no expectation of changing your view, but you might find a different opinion, and some facts, interesting.
No offense, but I don't think you know how collective bargaining works. The UAW doesn't pick a fight with anyone every year. Or any year. The "fights" I think you're referring to are contract negotiations. It's become fairly standard practice for the big unions, and the massive companies, to pick one manufacturer to negotiate the new contract with it's unions. The UAW may negotiate with GM this year, the next time the contract comes up, it may be Ford. Or Chrysler. Same with the URW and Firestone, Goodyear, Goodrich etc.
And a quick little side-track about the URW. Who do you think insisted on shipping all those defective tires to Ford ? And then trying to cover it up ? The URW line workers ? Or those saints in corporate ?
Back to the subject. Lay-offs and my personal greed. I'm originally from NE Ohio. And I started in a small shop the year after I got out of High school. One thing led to another and I ended up working for a GM outsource Die shop. On 9/11/01 my wife and I watched the Towers fall while she gave birth to our daughter. By early December 60% of the skilled trade workers in Cleveland were either unemployed or on short time. I was kind of lucky. We only got cut from 55 hours to 20 a week. So, I think I know a bit about getting layed off or taking a pay cut. It's not all that much better there now. Think I moved to Florida because it's a hot bed of manufacturing ?
Now as for the union wanting more and more all the time. For at least the last decade, and I'd lean more toward it being twenty years, the unions haven't been pushing for more. They've been trying to stop the bleeding. Every renewal, the manufacturers insist on more give backs. Lower wages, shorter hours, less health care, higher co-pays, less vacation, fewer holidays, scaled back retirement, elimination of prescription insurance for retirees. You name it, they demand the workers give back more. Have you been paying attention to what's happening in the Airline industry ? The Feds gave the carriers $Billions of all our tax money and the companies demanded the workers give back tons anyway. They're never satisfied. But you begrudge us what we have left. And God help us all if the Fed ever gets their grimey claws on our retirement funds. The same group of vultures that ruined Social Security is the one you feel best able to dismantle unions. Will you promise to pay all my bills after I retire ?
Florida is a "right to work state". So unions don't exist here in the traditonal sense. Let me give you one miniscule example of how companies take care of their beloved workers here when no one is standing up for them. We have no hot water to clean up with to go home. They insist that since it's Florida, room temperature water is good enough for us. By the way, we also have no heat. It doesn't get that cold here, right ? Sure am grateful to OSHA and the Trial parasites.
Anyway, I thought I'd give you answers to some of your questions and comments. I guess I should have stuck with buying Chevrolet. The other owners din't feel so threatened that people like me might buy one. But the traditional Cadillac owner seems to see me as an idiot that was just good in shop class. It just amazes me that there's so little respect here for the people that actually built the cars you people claim to love so much.
Hey don't worry, for some reason I don't really feel like posting here after today. I guess I got here too late to get into a really cool clique.
Bob

bob2231
10-26-03, 09:02 PM
Well said Elvis.

This is a controversial topic. It *must* remain civil...

I don't remember saying anything uncivil to anyone. So I'm lost on that one. But to reply to Elvis, I'm not talking about my "uncle", aunt, cousin Elmo, the guy across the street or some cooter I read about on a bathroom wall. I'm talking about exactly what's going on now, and for the past 20 years. Not from someone else's experience, but from my own.
I don't give opinions based on something I've never personally experienced. FIRST hand.
So that's it for me. I never dreamed a Cadillac forum would be populated by so many people, apparently including moderators, that don't give a damn about the workers that made the cars.
Good luck with the forum folks. I hope you can limit it to the elitist few that some of you seem to be looking for.
Bob

HotRodSaint
10-26-03, 09:11 PM
Let me give you one miniscule example of how companies take care of their beloved workers here when no one is standing up for them. We have no hot water to clean up with to go home. They insist that since it's Florida, room temperature water is good enough for us.

You are kidding right? Unless you are in a nurses union, I really hope that the lack of hot water at work isn't a big union issue.

HotRodSaint
10-26-03, 09:18 PM
So that's it for me. I never dreamed a Cadillac forum would be populated by so many people, apparently including moderators, that don't give a damn about the workers that made the cars.
Good luck with the forum folks. I hope you can limit it to the elitist few that some of you seem to be looking for.
Bob

Two people question the validity of unions positive effects in modern America and you're gone?! :confused:

Elvis
10-26-03, 09:21 PM
Hey, all I said was "Thanks UAW" and then the roof fell in. :halo:

I'm damn sorry. :rolleyes:

Die dulci fruere.

That'll probably be taken the wrong way, too. :canttalk:

bob2231
10-26-03, 09:27 PM
Two people question the validity of unions positive effects in modern America and you're gone?! :confused:
First, no I'm not in a nurse's union. But would there be something negative in that ? Or are you fumbling around trying to call me gay ?
Second, it just seems interesting that all the negative responses to my posts are coming from moderators. IT makes it hard to have any confidence in the neutrality of the moderation. I think that's what Katshot had such a problem with concerning the super moderator concept. Also interesting that in a warning to everyone to keep things civil, it was no secret which side the moderator took.
That's exactly why some people are concerned about who may be deleting posts, editing them, removing them from view, and why.
Are you guys getting the whole purpose of this argument yet ?

HotRodSaint
10-26-03, 09:32 PM
http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/uaw27_20030827.htm


That's a good article that gives both sides of the argument.

I like this part:
That -- and the lack of layoffs -- have made nonunion workers more willing to overlook the significant differences in pensions, health care costs and work rules, which is where the auto companies say the cost-gap arises. The UAW rose to power by giving strength and dignity to workers who felt taken advantage of by giant corporations. These days, that's just not the case, said Folsom, the former Alabama governor. "There's not a crying need to unionize when you are making $60,000."

Brett
10-26-03, 09:32 PM
The tap water is strangely warm in Tampa, frankly I dont like it.

Elvis
10-26-03, 09:40 PM
That was one of the reasons I posted it, HRS. If there's any legitimate complaint against the UAW, it's the bosses, not the labor. They're the ones who screwed things up for everybody. The pension funds are usually the reason. Jimmy Hoffa wrote the book, but that's another story.

I only posted the drug articles because bob brought it up. Google is a wonderful thing.

HotRodSaint
10-26-03, 09:49 PM
First, no I'm not in a nurse's union. But would there be something negative in that ? Or are you fumbling around trying to call me gay ?
Second, it just seems interesting that all the negative responses to my posts are coming from moderators. IT makes it hard to have any confidence in the neutrality of the moderation. I think that's what Katshot had such a problem with concerning the super moderator concept. Also interesting that in a warning to everyone to keep things civil, it was no secret which side the moderator took.
That's exactly why some people are concerned about who may be deleting posts, editing them, removing them from view, and why.
Are you guys getting the whole purpose of this argument yet ?

My purpose in mentioning the nurses union was because I would want a nurse to wash their hands in hot water for health purposes. To my knowledge, there is no health issue realted to die making.

Your second point obviously goes way beyond the topic that this thread took. You may or may not have valid points. But the topic of this thread wasn't the behaviour of moderators and dissappearing threads. I would have no issue with you discussing this in an appropriate thread.

Ralph
10-27-03, 12:35 AM
Sandy, don't you mean 1939-1945?

I'll keep it simple. Some unions get greedy, then the workers are paid too much, then we all lag behind. I agree with HotRodSaint. Unions were fine when we had children working in factories 150 years ago, but supposedly, things have changed. If the post office goes on strike again, they should fire all of them, and give the jobs to people who will be HAPPY to work for 22 dollars an hour! My stepdad had a union job, and ended up doing most of the work of the other lazy workers who were protected by the union! I'm sick of it. Isn't the high cost of labour the reason some American cars are now made in Canada, or Mexico? Because your unions want too much for the assembly-line workers.

What do you think of the rice cars that are made in the USA? Are they American?? I bet most of the profit still goes overseas??

HotRodSaint
10-27-03, 07:49 AM
What do you think of the rice cars that are made in the USA? Are they American?? I bet most of the profit still goes overseas??

How about the American cars that are made in Canada? Are they American cars?

Spike
10-27-03, 08:09 AM
Some of you guys seem to be living with your heads in the sand. :annoyed:

General Motors owns or has major control over Subaru, Suzuki, Isuzu, and Saab in addition to all the other European and Australian GM companies you may never have heard of.

If you own stock in General Motors or buy their cars then some of your investment is going to godless Japan to benefit Isuzu, Suzuki and Subaru and even to those sinister Swedes for Saab!! :bonkers: shouldn't this be illegal? How can we stand for this?! American money going overseas is horrible!!

And there are constant rumors and whispers that BMW will soon be gobbled up by General Motors as well. :canttalk:

Maybe owning a Cadillac isn't really a good idea for you guys, since CLEARLY General Motors is an AXIS sympathizer. :histeric:

HotRodSaint
10-27-03, 08:42 AM
General Motors owns or has major control over Subaru, Suzuki, Isuzu, and Saab in addition to all the other European and Australian GM companies you may never have heard of.

You forgot Daewoo and a minor stake in failing Fiat.

GM was also one of the first foriegn auto makers to invest in China. They have a Chinese factory making Opels w/ Buick badges. And they will start selling Cadillacs there very soon. So how long before there are Chinese built Cadillacs? Remember that China is still a communist country!!

So GM is supporting the Red Chinese communists! Who would have thunk it? :canttalk: :confused: :canttalk:

HotRodSaint
10-27-03, 09:49 AM
Good article:
http://www.detnews.com/2003/autosinsider/0310/27/a01-308225.htm

Good Quote:
"Unlike the bitter and divisive rhetoric spewed by pro- and anti-union advocates elsewhere, those in the Mercedes work force tend to be open to opposing opinions. Clanton and Kimbrell, while they disagree about the merits of union representation, have become friends. "

Sandy
10-27-03, 01:15 PM
I am sorry that somehow my original post, the idea of which is so lost now, finding a brand new perfect Yugo would be easier! I promise, in the future I will go no deeper than what's the best wax to use. :)

I can understand those older men not buying a car with a "foreign" nameplate. At 56 I would certainly NOT wanna buy/drive a car made in Viet Nam. It's just the principle guys.

Oh Oh, here I go again. I have noticed - not just here, but other car-boards as well, that you can say that you would never buy Japanese or German cars, and people will fly to the car's defense, as is the case in most of the above. However, say that you'll never buy an American car, because they are all junk.....and NOBODY flies to the American car's defense! We are watching - but few are "seeing" the final stage of errosion of the traditional American car. Plymouth is gone, Oldsmobile has 6 months to go, GM will fit future small Chevys with engines made in China, Korean cars will wear American nameplates and be sold here, and slowly & quietly America is losing her title as the greatest manufacturing industrialized nation in the world, and becomeing a "Packaging" nation. I went to buy a throw-a-way camera. There were two brands displayed. Fugi & Kodak. On the bottom of the Kodak box, I saw an American flag & some writing. I bought the Kodak. It was .25 cents more. When I got it home, put on reading glasses to read the (purposely) tiny print, it said: "Product made in China - Boxed in the USA" - with a big proud American Flag!
Soon, a Cadillac made in So Korea, fitted with an engine from China and the window sticker printed in the USA! :devil:

Elvis
10-27-03, 02:03 PM
I'm sorry your thread got hijacked, Sandy. I'll take my share of the blame for those two little words I uttered that got this whole thing started. Wait, it was ONE word and ONE semi-acronym.

But back to your original question, with the large number of immigrants from eastern Asia in this country, combined with the death rates of the people who "remember Pearl Harbor" there isn't any animosity left in this country.

IMO, If a fundamentalist Islamic nation entered the automobile market with an inexpensive, high-quality, fuel efficient car, it would struggle gaining entry, but I doubt that would last for long.

Americans (despite our prejudices) respect quality engineering and good craftsmanship, capitalist pigs that we are. That's what a free-market economy is all about--competition.

HotRodSaint
10-27-03, 02:23 PM
But back to your original question, with the large number of immigrants from eastern Asia in this country, combined with the death rates of the people who "remember Pearl Harbor" there isn't any animosity left in this country.

We are also largley a forgiving nation.

Ralph
10-31-03, 01:34 AM
How about the American cars that are made in Canada? Are they American cars?

Personally, I still consider them to be American cars. There are no Canadian car companies anymore. But since I have grown-up and lived in "America Junior" all my life, I consider American cars to be "domestic" because in the 1970's, they were all we saw, had, and worked on.

2dfx
10-31-03, 01:40 AM
Personally, I still consider them to be American cars. There are no Canadian car companies anymore. But since I have grown-up and lived in "America Junior" all my life, I consider American cars to be "domestic" because in the 1970's, they were all we saw, had, and worked on.
We're not America Junior. We are Canada. We do not aspire to be like the americans - starting wars with countries because they don't share their system of beliefs, use of the death penalty, legalizing guns, policing the citizens, etc.

Spike
10-31-03, 07:17 AM
starting wars with countries because they don't share their system of beliefs, use of the death penalty, legalizing guns, policing the citizens, etc.

:histeric:

Careful now, you just moved one step closer to "involuntary annexation"... :sneaky:

Ralph
10-31-03, 11:43 PM
We're not America Junior. We are Canada. We do not aspire to be like the americans - starting wars with countries because they don't share their system of beliefs, use of the death penalty, legalizing guns, policing the citizens, etc.

AHHHHHHHHHHHH FREEDOM and JUSTICE. Don't even get me started on gun control! :banghead2