: northstar turbo



syhnthetik
05-22-05, 07:44 PM
I found a guy on ebay that claimed he was selling a turbo kit for the STS. His auction wasn't very detailed aside from the fact that it would include all neccessary hardware and parts. I wrote to him with the following conversation:

Me:
Does this come with EVERYTHING that would be needed to install this on a 99 cadillac STS? You say that this is a stage 3, but then in the description it says both stage 2, and stage 1. So which is it? And if this is a full kit with everything you need and its a stage 3, why are you selling it so cheap? Please let me know what the deal is with this auction. Thanks.


Him:
Yea, I noticed later there was a few errors. Even the price on the stage 3 isn't right. I have all three kits for your vehical.

The stage one kit cost $550. and will include everything you will need for your install. Including hardware, upgrades, and directions for your vehical. It will work great, without any other modifications. The turbo model and upgrades that come with the turbo vary with the vehical type. So will the turbos model and even location. But with out adding any other mods to your car, you will see a major hp increase to your stock or near stock vehical. As long as you can read and follow the detailed instruction you can install this yourself if you have the basic tools. Installation time is about three and a half hours.
The stage 2 and 3 kits will both come with all upgrades and hardware needed for the installation. The stage 2 kit cost $900 and is capable of 14psi. The stage 3 kit cost $1200. and is capable of 20psi. All car models will vary with the turbo model and hardware. But the stage 2-3 kit will always include coated charge pipes. Compressor and exhaust turbine, coated tubular manifold, intercooler, blow off valve, external wastegate, oil lines, clamps and all hardware needed including detailed instructions. Make sure to leave a note to seller in your way of payment telling me your vehical type. Thank you.


Me:
I am still very interested in a stage 1 kit for my 99 STS. Please let me know the psi of the stage 1 kit and what exactly comes with it. You say what comes with the stage 2 & 3 kits, but not what all comes with the stage one kit. Also please let me know how much hp I can expect out of the stage 1 kit for a 99 Cadillac Seville STS. Thanks.


Him:
the stage one kit is capable of 8 psi. I am a dealer so I don't have every kit memorized. All kits will very in hardware and uprades depending on vehical type. The stage one kit doesn't come with an intercooler becuase it's not needed for lower boost. I am only suppose to say that all kits are guaranteed 60hp but the stage 2-3 are capable of much more. The stage one kit cost $550. and will include everything you will need for your install. Including hardware, upgrades, and directions for your vehical. It will work great, without any other modifications. The turbo model and upgrades that come with the turbo vary with the vehical type. So will the turbos model and even location. But with out adding any other mods to your car, you will see a major hp increase to your stock or near stock vehical. As long as you can read and follow the detailed instruction you can install this yourself if you have the basic tools. Installation time is about three and a half hours.






I don't really know what to think about this. I haven't seen any other kits out there, and a Stage 1 kit capable of producing 8 psi and over 60hp for only $550? This sounds too good to be true. I just bought my car (haven't even picked it up yet), and I don't want to go doing something stupid that might ruin it. I plan on putting an exhaust on first, and I would love to get this kit too, I just thought I would see if you guys thought this could be right.

mcowden
05-22-05, 08:24 PM
I'm sure you can finish the following quote:

"If it sounds too good to be true..."

And it sounds like the guy has no idea what he's talking about and with no documentation or better description of what he's got, I would stay light years away from that scam. I doubt he has any turbos for Northstars. As far as I know, it can't be done with the stock computer anyway and so far there are no chips or aftermarket computers that will work with it. Maybe user eldorado1 could help you out a bit if I'm wrong about this, but I'd still tell you to stay away from that ebay scam waiting to happen.

Good luck...

CTX-SLPR
05-23-05, 09:56 AM
There is a company that makes turbos that they mount where the mufflers normally are called STS. Its probably one of those, its actually a decent idea for already high performance cars since the long duct work required helps cool the charge kind of like a really ineffecient intercooler and they don't build boost very fast or very high. the F-body and GTO guys seem to have good luck with them. I wonder how much extra air, and therefore fuel, the stock PCM can accomodate? Might be an interesting side project if someone wants to do it, though I think a 2000+ Northstar would be a better foundation with its lower compression.

Lord I was born a rambl'n man,

eldorado1
05-23-05, 11:08 AM
"If it sounds too good to be true..."
.....Maybe user eldorado1 could help you out a bit if I'm wrong about this, but I'd still tell you to stay away from that ebay scam waiting to happen.


$10 says this "turbo" is a bilge pump. Anybody else want in? $550 would barely cover the appropriate turbocharger... and it comes with everything? Must be a different kind of everything than I'm used to... If the "stage 1" kit was $2000, then you might have something.

If you're still seriously considering it, demand pics. Feel free to post them here..

Concourson20s
05-23-05, 01:35 PM
Are you sure he's not talking about the STS turbo kit as in the company? They make rear mounted turbo kits for ls1 f-bodys like mines. Just 8 psi will put my ls1 near 500 rwhp. Now from what I understand they don't make any kits for lacs. I know the starting kit for ls1's is about 3300, I get a better price because I'm a member of SFFBA (south florida f-body asso) and one of the members is a distributor.
CHECK THEM OUT: www.ststurbo.com (http://www.ststurbo.com)

syhnthetik
05-23-05, 04:39 PM
Yes, I am familiar with the STS turbo kit that runs off of the exhaust back by the mufflers. The title on this was "Turbo Cadillac Seville STS Deville DTS XLR CTS". I am still waiting to hear back from the guy after writing this:


"If you are a dealer, there must be some sort of site that I can view the kit? Surely you must understand my hesitation, as there are currently NO turbo or supercharger kits available for this car. According to everyone I talk to, the computer code can't be cracked to change the programming necessary for a turbo or supercharger. Please let me know how I can find more information about the testing process that this kit was put through before it was considered safe for a cadillac. Thanks."


I will let you guys know what he writes back (if he writes back), and I will post links to pics if he gives me any. Thanks for all the comments.

K2K
05-23-05, 09:52 PM
Please keep everyone updated with his response :-)

danbuc
05-24-05, 12:34 AM
syhnthetik, how about a link to his page on ebay so we can check it out.

dkozloski
05-24-05, 02:35 AM
The energy that is present in the exhaust that the turbocharger converts to boost pressure is in three forms: pressure, velocity and temperature. If any of these is allowed to decline on the way to the turbo the whole operation is down hill. The ideal location for the exhaust turbine is as part of the exhaust manifold as close to the ports as you can get it. Any extension of the plumbing that locates the blower farther away allows the heat to radiate away which lowers the pressure and allows the velocity of the exhaust to drop. This is just basic high school physics. A remote mounted turbo is bad news. The only reason for doing it is to produce a second rate setup to fool the gringos. I had a 1964 Corvair Monza Spyder with a TRW blower that I glued the exhaust system together with caterpillar exhaust cement. I used sodium silicate, asbestos, aluminum foil and stove pipe wire to wrap and insulate everything between the engine and the blower. When I got through that thing would carry both front wheels for 150 feet off the line. Go have a look at industrial installations and you will find a large percentage of them are insulated to keep the exhaust temps up. The turbo on most aircraft installations is wrapped with an insulating blanket. Remote blowers are losers or more accurately lossy.

danbuc
05-24-05, 03:48 AM
The reason people are using this setup on the LSx engines, is mostly due to the fact that it drastically reduces the temperature in the engine compartment. Also, they are only relying on the turbo for higher RPM boost. Because most of the engines they are running these on are already making 350-400+hp, they don't need the low end boost, that a Honda would. That is why they can make do with the excessive turbo lag, caused by such a design. They don't need it for any low end power, and therefor, there really is no draw back. As I mentioned before, what they do gain, is a cooler engine compartment, and much less heat soak, resulting in more overall power. While a setup like this would be completely worthless on a 4 cylinder like a Honda, which needs the low end boost from a turbo, the much more powerful V8's can rely on mere low end torque, and only need the turbo for higher RPM power.

syhnthetik
05-24-05, 05:19 AM
syhnthetik, how about a link to his page on ebay so we can check it out.


All of his turbo auctions were pulled off of ebay, I don't know why. Looks like it was a scam afterall.

Randy_W
05-24-05, 07:29 AM
The turbo on most aircraft installations is wrapped with an insulating blanket. Remote blowers are losers or more accurately lossy.


Tell that to the guys running deep into the 10's with this setup on a basically stock LS1! By the way, what is a "lossy"?:rolleyes2

CTX-SLPR
05-24-05, 10:38 AM
They loose a ton of thermal energy on the trip down the exhauste pipe to the turbo. If you get scientific you have both the bulk flow velocity and the individual partical velocity which is directly related to the temperature of the fluid. You also have a large volume to pressurize with the entire exhauste pipe before the turbo. Like was pointed out earlier, these turbos are designed to be added to stock motors which don't need and can't tollerate much booste. Considering the torque curve on an LS1 engine is pretty flat it already makes 300-400hp Naturally Aspirated, F-body's are already traction limited often without a booste. At low speed engines are more prone to detonate due to decreased chamber motion and increased mixture dwell time, meaning that already high compression engines such as the LS1 and LS6 would knock like crazy if the booste came on low. The limitation of a Naturally Aspriated motor at higher RPM's is that it can no longer spend enough time with the intake valve open to inhale more air, as a solution you increase the cam duration and lift but the more you do that the more you loose your low end to the inability of the engine to build cylinder pressure at low RPMs. With forced induction the engine gets force fed air and can do it on a stock or narrow overlap cam. I'm not saying these setups don't work, its just not a very effiicient design as you loose a ton of energy on the way to the turbo and then on the trip back.

Don't get mad, get informed,

Concourson20s
05-24-05, 11:04 AM
But the funny thing is there is hardly any lag. The main reason for the rear mounted turbo set up is room! There isn't much to spare. Heat is also another big factor. The truth of the lsx setup the exhaust system flows incredibly well from factory, it's the muffler that is so restrictive. It's not uncommon to see an ls1 drop significant tenths in the 1320 with just a airbox and catback system. Although what you say is true, the heat in the exhaust location is enough to supply decent spool up time, and humongous gains from this turbo system. The beauty of the ls engines is how incredible the heads flow, evident of the high mph show in their 1/4 times. there have been applications where a ls1 was bolted in a custom hot rod, with turbo direct on the manifold, and the differences in power were not much different. Why because the ls1 dosen't require much more flow to improve it's performance with it's factory displacement. Tuning is the number one issue, and simply perfecting it's already impressive flow numbers are the key, to make huge power with an ls engine.
The STS turbo kit is currently the best bang for the buck if you drive an ls1 powered f-body. Some guys are actually coating their exhaust to retain more heat, but the difference in hp is minimal 2 or 3 hp.

So the next time you see an ls1 guy, laugh all you want about a boosted muffler, talk all the physics mumbo jumbo all you want, get as technical as you like, but when you race and your car feels like it's parked and you can't even read the plates on it cuz it's so far away... the only advice I can give: Write down everything you told him, and when you get home wipe the crap clean off your arse with it:thumbsup:

eldorado1
05-24-05, 11:31 AM
All of his turbo auctions were pulled off of ebay, I don't know why. Looks like it was a scam afterall.

I don't care who ya are, that's funny right there! :histeric:

dkozloski
05-24-05, 11:39 AM
Early in WWII there was a fighter plane called the P43 Lancer that was a precurser to the P47 Thunderbolt. This aircraft featured a remote mounted turbocharger located in the tail. The exhaust was plumbed all the way back and the compressed air was plumbed all the way up forward. Because of the energy losses the plane had a dismal performance. Added to this was the fact that if any fluid leaks developed such as fuel, oil, or hydraulics, the plane burst into flame off the red hot turbo. It was not a pilot's favorite.

danbuc
05-24-05, 11:48 AM
Good point, but what does that have to do with a Trans Am? I think the P38J Lightning may have used remote mounted turbos as well, don't really remember, but for some reason that plane comes to mind.

Here's a story I'd like to tell about a a 2001 Trans Am. This a guy my friend know's by the way, and he has personally seen the car run at the track. This guy had two moderate sized turbo's wedged into the engine compartment. He ran mid 11's everytime he went to the track. Each time he ran the car, he needed to spark plug wires (the enormous amoutn of heat, kept ruining them evetyime he ran the car). Now, he run's an STS turbo system. He regularly runs mid to low 10's at the track now, and doesn't have to worry about damaging plug wires, or anything else for that matter. People may say that it's so inefficient that it's not worth the money. Well, if it saves you the hassle of having to replace damaged parts evertime you run the car, or loosing power due to excessive heats soak, I'd say that using such a kit, in a car that run 11" naturally asperated, is well worth the added gains (provided you have that kind of money to burn).

dkozloski
05-24-05, 12:58 PM
One important element of any turbocharger installation is the requirement that the center bearing of the turbo gets a LOT of oil flow both for lubrication and cooling. This oil must be scavanged as it accumulates and cannot be allowed to pool, especiallly on shutdown. Ordinarily the turbo is mounted high enough that the return oil can flow to the sump by gravity. If the turbo is remote mounted it must have an active scavange system that runs after the engine is shut down. If any oil is allowed to remain in the turbo it is burned and carbonized by the latent heat and quickly plugs the turbo lube system. Even if the turbo is water cooled it must be scavanged. If not destruction follows. This was handled in remote mounted aircraft turbos by a self contained gear-driven lube system. Be sure to check out the system you plan on buying to see how they engineered this issue.

Concourson20s
05-24-05, 06:07 PM
The oiling system for the STS kit uses a tap off the oil pan with an inline pump and all the plumbing. It's real reliable and no f-bod owners have complained yet. However I personally don't like the idea of oil lines running from my pan to the rear end. So I have already started making some custom brackets (radio mounting brackets) to mount a reseviour in the spare wheel compartment. F bodys carry the spare wheel on the right rear quater panel, right above where the turbo will be mounted and they have a disperse hole to releive out any water that might get in the compartment. I removed the rubber, ran a hose down to the turbo with an inline filter and the same pump. just fill the tank with 5w30 and change it every 15k miles. Should be fine.

Concourson20s
05-24-05, 06:34 PM
People may say that it's so inefficient that it's not worth the money. Well, if it saves you the hassle of having to replace damaged parts evertime you run the car, or loosing power due to excessive heats soak, I'd say that using such a kit, in a car that run 11" naturally asperated, is well worth the added gains (provided you have that kind of money to burn).

People that say that don't know what they are talking about. They are thinking of the kit and turbo itself rather than the whole picture. For the setup this is going into, and the engine that is going to be running it. It's perfect, maybe for a vg30dett nissan or even a fighter plane this is a waste of money. But for the ls1 and given the standards we have to meet to get it to work, this kit is perfect. Too many people make the mistake of focusing just on the turbo itself when they decided to go that route. They focus on things like polished piping and huge fmi, and the loudest blow off valves, and they lose track of the important details, and thats whats going to work best for what you have, and the compromises you have to make.

dkozloski
05-24-05, 07:10 PM
Concourson20s, if you are going to have a separate lube system for the turbo you will have to have a supply pump, a scavange pump, and an oil cooler able to dissapate at least 10% of the total heat generated by the engine. The turbo must be scavanged of oil at all times but absolutely at shut down or any remaining oil will boil off and coke up the center bearings. Without the oil cooler the oil in the tank will boil and burn on the first good steep hill you encounter. The amount of heat associated with turbos is very, very sizable and must be dealt with.

syhnthetik
05-24-05, 07:41 PM
ok, this thread got jacked hehe

danbuc
05-24-05, 11:07 PM
People that say that don't know what they are talking about. They are thinking of the kit and turbo itself rather than the whole picture. For the setup this is going into, and the engine that is going to be running it. It's perfect, maybe for a vg30dett nissan or even a fighter plane this is a waste of money. But for the ls1 and given the standards we have to meet to get it to work, this kit is perfect. Too many people make the mistake of focusing just on the turbo itself when they decided to go that route. They focus on things like polished piping and huge fmi, and the loudest blow off valves, and they lose track of the important details, and thats whats going to work best for what you have, and the compromises you have to make.


Uhh, I don't think you understood the point I was making by this statement. I am arguing FOR the kit onthe LS1 NOT against it. Maybe you should re-read my other posts a little more carefully. As I said in the statement that you qouted and mis-interpreted, using such a kit on a a car that already runs 11's N/A is worth it, especially if it prevent damaging components, everytime you run the car. The LS1 makes plenty of low end torque, only needed the turbo for higher RPM power.

Concourson20s
05-25-05, 11:51 AM
I know I was simply talking along with you:) .

D koz you are correct. I have a cooler for my differental which I bought. It has two seperate tanks, like if i wanted to hook up a transmission and ps for example. I asked the STS techs and they said it should work fine. If the temp gets out of control I could always add a electric fan, but I think it should work out fine.

danbuc
05-25-05, 08:55 PM
Oh, nevermind...hehe.

syhnthetik
05-31-05, 05:29 AM
Well, I never did hear back from him after my last email, so I guess it was just a big scam. Thanks guys, if it wasn't for this board, I probably would have ended up buying one and losing my money.

hungryhippo
05-31-05, 03:34 PM
it doesnt sound right at all considering turbo kits usually run 3-6k