: Can the 300 HP be swapped with 275 HP motor?



jimg
10-25-03, 08:23 AM
Hi, I have a 97 Deville vin code 9(300HP)has spun rod bearing ,found a vin code y(275 HP) engine with 54K miles for $400. (It was in a wreck,and right side head has 1 mount boss broken (out of 3) .What exactly are the differances between the to engines? I have heard heads(dealer says heads are same part#) The cams,Cam timing,Computer, exhaust manifolds,and gear ratios. Can someone Please help me? thanks jim g

epanightmare
10-25-03, 10:29 AM
Hi, I have a 97 Deville vin code 9(300HP)has spun rod bearing ,found a vin code y(275 HP) engine with 54K miles for $400. (It was in a wreck,and right side head has 1 mount boss broken (out of 3) .What exactly are the differances between the to engines? I have heard heads(dealer says heads are same part#) The cams,Cam timing,Computer, exhaust manifolds,and gear ratios. Can someone Please help me? thanks jim g


the difference between the to motors is just the cam profile and the computer program. A vin#Y motor will bolt in and run just the same as a vin#9 motor. the problem comes when you try to interchange vinY and vin9 transmissions because the final drive ratios are different.
I have done this swap before and no problems yet.

jimg
10-25-03, 10:49 AM
the difference between the to motors is just the cam profile and the computer program. A vin#Y motor will bolt in and run just the same as a vin#9 motor. the problem comes when you try to interchange vinY and vin9 transmissions because the final drive ratios are different.
I have done this swap before and no problems yet.
Thanks,for the quick response! By "cam profile" I assume you mean that cam lobes themselves for different? Would you suggest that swap out cams (my appear to be good 74k on old motor). Was there any notable proformance differance? Is there Anything special I need to do or replace before installing junkyard motor.(I'm selling car,but I don't want any trouble:removal and Install such pain). Thanks jim g

epanightmare
10-25-03, 11:25 AM
Thanks,for the quick response! By "cam profile" I assume you mean that cam lobes themselves for different? Would you suggest that swap out cams (my appear to be good 74k on old motor). Was there any notable proformance differance? Is there Anything special I need to do or replace before installing junkyard motor.(I'm selling car,but I don't want any trouble:removal and Install such pain). Thanks jim g

You can change the cams if you want to but its not required. the motor will run just fine with the vinY cams but about 10-15 fewer HP. If you want to install the vin9 cams then the only speical tools you'll need are a pully puller/installer set and a tool to hold the cams in place when you reinstall the timing chains. I wouldn't worry about changing the cams if you are selling the car. you might notice the power differance but its likely that the puchacer will be more than happy the power output

jimg
10-25-03, 11:35 AM
You can change the cams if you want to but its not required. the motor will run just fine with the vinY cams but about 10-15 fewer HP. If you want to install the vin9 cams then the only speical tools you'll need are a pully puller/installer set and a tool to hold the cams in place when you reinstall the timing chains. I wouldn't worry about changing the cams if you are selling the car. you might notice the power differance but its likely that the puchacer will be more than happy the power output
Thanks Again for your help ! I also wondered about demand for parts for this engine. Heads,starters,etc price? thanks jim g

elwesso
10-25-03, 12:54 PM
If youd like more information, this has been discussed IN DEPTH..... Please search....... :)

Most of the time though, you dont buy individual parts, rather when the engine goes its better just to replace it with a new one.........!

epanightmare
10-25-03, 02:27 PM
Thanks Again for your help ! I also wondered about demand for parts for this engine. Heads,starters,etc price? thanks jim g

I don't know about prices for parts but i know you got a great deal on that motor. From what I've seen the complete engines usually sell for 1000 to 2500 dollars used depending on milage:banana::banana:

Katshot
10-26-03, 09:00 AM
I've always wanted to do an experiment with using the lower geared transaxle and the lower HP (higher torque) engine. I think you'd end up with a nicer package in the end but..........

Oh and BTW, there's more involved in doing a cam swap on a Nothstar than just holding the cams. You'll need the tools for holding the chain tensioners too, and I's probably suggest the flywheel locking tool also.

jimg
10-26-03, 11:15 AM
I've always wanted to do an experiment with using the lower geared transaxle and the lower HP (higher torque) engine. I think you'd end up with a nicer package in the end but..........

Oh and BTW, there's more involved in doing a cam swap on a Nothstar than just holding the cams. You'll need the tools for holding the chain tensioners too, and I's probably suggest the flywheel locking tool also.
Thanks so much ,for everyone's help! You all sure know your caddy's. So I know for next time:(God forbid) When removing the engine/trans/subframe; what is the trick with the wiring? That seemed to be the biggest headache! I got the engine out ,but sure seems like there should be a better way,It took me about 13 hours ! What the deal with the plug at the firewall(passenger side),that's not a connector,do you have to remove interior pieces to undo. I know someone touched on it,but I didn't know the best method. thanks Everybody! jim g

Katshot
10-26-03, 11:45 AM
If all you're doing is an engine R&R, you CAN do it in the car which makes it way easier unless you have a lift and subframe stand. The harness connectors you describe generally break apart by removing a screw in the center which holds them together.

jimg
10-26-03, 01:01 PM
If all you're doing is an engine R&R, you CAN do it in the car which makes it way easier unless you have a lift and subframe stand. The harness connectors you describe generally break apart by removing a screw in the center which holds them together.
According to the haynes manual(I know there not alway right) and 4 differant cadillac dealership mechanics that have removed and replaced engines; the only way to do this is from the bottom;and as an assembly. But I know there are usually tricks,so please elaborate. thanks jim g

zonie77
10-26-03, 02:04 PM
The plate the wiring goes through is just a big grommet for the firewall. The screws let it loose and you pull the wires through from the computer (after you disconnect them of course).

zonie77
10-26-03, 02:15 PM
I've pulled front wheel drive engins out the top so I will not argue with Katshot. If you are only swapping engines that might be easier but I the Caddy looks harder than the others I've done. The N* is the first I've dropped out the bottom and with the exception of the wiring it wasn't that bad.

zonie77
10-26-03, 06:24 PM
To Jimg:
I ran across another thread of halcyon026 looking for a cam.

http://cadillacforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3673


Maybe you two can do a deal.

jimg
11-15-03, 05:50 PM
I've pulled front wheel drive engins out the top so I will not argue with Katshot. If you are only swapping engines that might be easier but I the Caddy looks harder than the others I've done. The N* is the first I've dropped out the bottom and with the exception of the wiring it wasn't that bad.
Hi, everyone! Just an update I have completed the engine installation of the 275 hp engine in place of the 300HP. My observations: # 1 Man that was a pain in the neck!!! I have installed well over 100 engines ,transmission in various imports/ american made cars, and I can say without question ,that was as Bad as it gets. (please respond if you have done 1996-1999 deville engine replacement and have done worse? I do about 20 cars a year ,That are in need of engine replacement/repair,burnt wiring harness,light wrecks ect. If there are cars that are worse please let me know! Yes, the two engines(vin code Y and 9 ) will exchange The only Differance I could visually see was the oil cooler ,on the 300Hp and althought the heads are same part no. the cams are differant. Other wise everything fit and ran great. thanks guys jim g Ps There is one other thing? I have a 4 feet long two wire connector(blue and yellow ) That come off of the main anti-lock brake harness (right next to main unit located in the front lower left engine compartment on 1997 concours models (traction control) Where does that connector go? I beleive it has to do with the traction control ,but I'm over 40 and my memory is bad , and I just can't remember where this wire came from ? Help thanks again jim g

epanightmare
11-16-03, 07:39 PM
Hi, everyone! Just an update I have completed the engine installation of the 275 hp engine in place of the 300HP. My observations: # 1 Man that was a pain in the neck!!! I have installed well over 100 engines ,transmission in various imports/ american made cars, and I can say without question ,that was as Bad as it gets. (please respond if you have done 1996-1999 deville engine replacement and have done worse? I do about 20 cars a year ,That are in need of engine replacement/repair,burnt wiring harness,light wrecks ect. If there are cars that are worse please let me know! Yes, the two engines(vin code Y and 9 ) will exchange The only Differance I could visually see was the oil cooler ,on the 300Hp and althought the heads are same part no. the cams are differant. Other wise everything fit and ran great. thanks guys jim g Ps There is one other thing? I have a 4 feet long two wire connector(blue and yellow ) That come off of the main anti-lock brake harness (right next to main unit located in the front lower left engine compartment on 1997 concours models (traction control) Where does that connector go? I beleive it has to do with the traction control ,but I'm over 40 and my memory is bad , and I just can't remember where this wire came from ? Help thanks again jim g
sounds like you didn't connect the harness to the driver side front wheel speed sensor hope that helps:rolleyes: ....

jimg
11-16-03, 07:53 PM
sounds like you didn't connect the harness to the driver side front wheel speed sensor hope that helps:rolleyes: ....
I wish that was it. I kept thinking the same thing. But the driver side and passenager side speed senors as well as senors the sense the control arm postion are connected. thanks jim g

Dubya
11-17-03, 11:04 PM
so you just switched the motors, so you have a 275hp motor with the 3.71 geared transmission? if you go to sell it, that would be a plus. as soon as they hit the gas they'll feel torque like no other caddy!

details! stock computer? stock transmission? drove it yet?? feel faster off the line?

jimg
11-18-03, 07:31 AM
so you just switched the motors, so you have a 275hp motor with the 3.71 geared transmission? if you go to sell it, that would be a plus. as soon as they hit the gas they'll feel torque like no other caddy!

details! stock computer? stock transmission? drove it yet?? feel faster off the line?
Yes,all stock 300hp except engine ,just had to change oil filter adaptor to accept oil cooler lines. Yes I have driven car several times ,and seems to have great pick-up for such a heavy car ,but I couldn't drive before ,so I have no basis of comparation. I am pleased with the preformance ,and the car is near mint with 74k on car and 54k on motor. But ,I bought the car to sell ,I need 8k . Thanks jim g

zonie77
11-18-03, 06:53 PM
Just curious...did you pull it out the top or drop the cradle? Not sure from your posts.

jimg
11-19-03, 07:36 PM
Just curious...did you pull it out the top or drop the cradle? Not sure from your posts.
I had no choice;but to drop it out the bottom . Please respond if you have ever sucessfully (actually done it) lifted 4.6 motor out the top of a 1997-1999 deville! Before removing the first bolt: I spoke with countless caddy certified mechanics that have removed engines many times on flatrate(minutes saved is money in there pocket) And they all agreed that the only way to remove engine or transmission; is to remove entire craddle including steering gear,axles,ect. I beleive,and I may be wrong that the 2000-up models are differant . I looked at the manuals,looked at the car,but short of taking a cuting torch to cross-over pipe which runs under oil pan(I took only drop oil pan about 1" ) The worst part is the wiring, the absence of major connectors,is unexcusalbe. (if you've done it you know what I mean.) I still haven't found out where the 4' long two wire connector(blue and yellow ) that comes out of the main anti-lock brake harness, goes . thanks jim g

zonie77
11-19-03, 08:38 PM
two members said taking it out the top was better. I think katshot was one, don't remember other. I didn't think there was a viable option. We dropped the cradle.
You're right about the cables. It indicates Caddy thinks the engine will outlast the car and that isn't always so.

epanightmare
11-19-03, 08:39 PM
I had no choice;but to drop it out the bottom . Please respond if you have ever sucessfully (actually done it) lifted 4.6 motor out the top of a 1997-1999 deville! Before removing the first bolt: I spoke with countless caddy certified mechanics that have removed engines many times on flatrate(minutes saved is money in there pocket) And they all agreed that the only way to remove engine or transmission; is to remove entire craddle including steering gear,axles,ect. I beleive,and I may be wrong that the 2000-up models are differant . I looked at the manuals,looked at the car,but short of taking a cuting torch to cross-over pipe which runs under oil pan(I took only drop oil pan about 1" ) The worst part is the wiring, the absence of major connectors,is unexcusalbe. (if you've done it you know what I mean.) I still haven't found out where the 4' long two wire connector(blue and yellow ) that comes out of the main anti-lock brake harness, goes . thanks jim g
:banghead: :banghead:

I have have now installed either 19 or 20 nstars just losing count , but i can definatly say that pulling the motor out the bottom is the way to go.
It can be pulled out the top but some things I'll warn you about.

1. It will take at least 3 times longer to complete the job plus lots of extra frustration

2. You WILL break the HVAC box, it will happen just deal with it..

3. Your chances of breaking wiring, connectors, and other misc. parts is a whole lot higher

By the way , I can usually complete most nstar removal & instalations through the bottom of the car in about 12 to 14 hours but i'm still getting faster. Also helps to have a lift and the right tools.

If you look on www.alldatapro.com (http://www.alldatapro.com) they have instuctions for removing the engine from the top but I do not recommend it:bighead:

jimg
11-22-03, 04:02 PM
sounds like you didn't connect the harness to the driver side front wheel speed sensor hope that helps:rolleyes: ....
Okay, epanightmare; you were right! and Yes I was definetly wrong! (my wife loves to heard those words!) The 4 ft wire I spoke of; does go to lf wheel speed senor. However , that leaves me with another problem. I connected the wheel senor to a near twin wire that that happen to be with in 2" of the light green and yellow wire just under the master cylinder ,and It just so happen to fit exactly. To clarify ; I now need to know what the light green and yellow two wire connector,(located just under master cylinder ,agaist the booster. ) It come out of a 1'' wire mold loom. I have the anti-lock ,traction control,and the stability warning coming on. Codes tcs c1242 (abs) and tcs c1255 abs pump ground. any ideas thanks jim g

epanightmare
11-22-03, 09:24 PM
Okay, epanightmare; you were right! and Yes I was definetly wrong! (my wife loves to heard those words!) The 4 ft wire I spoke of; does go to lf wheel speed senor. However , that leaves me with another problem. I connected the wheel senor to a near twin wire that that happen to be with in 2" of the light green and yellow wire just under the master cylinder ,and It just so happen to fit exactly. To clarify ; I now need to know what the light green and yellow two wire connector,(located just under master cylinder ,agaist the booster. ) It come out of a 1'' wire mold loom. I have the anti-lock ,traction control,and the stability warning coming on. Codes tcs c1242 (abs) and tcs c1255 abs pump ground. any ideas thanks jim g

OK here's what I found hope this helps.:bighead: :bonkers:

By the way the first thing I would check is the EBTCM (ABS pump) connector. When you pulled the lower coolant hose while removing the engine some coolant probably leak onto EBTCM and was probably still there when the motor was reinstalled and is causing a short at this terminal. pull the connector and use an air gun to dry out the coolant then reconnect the terminal then clear the codes.

DCT c1242 BPMV pump motor curcuit open.

CIRCUIT DESCRIPTION
The BPMV pump motor ground is supplied through a ground stud on the pump motor to a good ground.

CONDITION FOR SETTING THE DTC
DTC C1242 can be set when the pump relay is commanded OFF. A malfunction exists if the pump motor ground CKT 350 resistance is greater than 6900 ohms.

ACTION TAKEN WHEN THE DTC SETS
A malfunction DTC is stored, ABS/TCS/ICCS is disabled and the ABS and traction control indicator lampsare turned ON. Vehicles with ICCS2 will display the STABILITY REDUCED message on the DIC.

CONDITIONS FOR CLEARING THE DTC
Condition for DTC is no longer present and scan tool clear DTC function is used. Fifty start cycles have passed with no DTCs detected.

DIAGNOSTIC AIDS
It is very important that a thorough inspection of the wiring and connectors be performed. Failure to carefully and fully inspect wiring and connectors may result in misdiagnosis, causing part replacement with reappearance of the malfunction. An intermittent malfunction can be caused by poor connections, broken insulation, or a wire that is broken inside the insulation.

TEST DESCRIPTION
The numbers below refer to step numbers on the diagnostic table.

Checks for good pump motor ground. Checks for good pump motor ground through the BPMV.
DTC c1255 EBTCM internal malfunction, ABS/TCS/ICCS dissabled.

CIRCUIT DESCRIPTION
This DTC identifies a malfunction within the EBTCM.

CONDITION FOR SETTING THE DTC
DTC C1255 is set when an internal EBTCM malfunction exists.

ACTION TAKEN WHEN THE DTC SETS
A malfunction DTC is stored, ABS/TCS/ICCS is disabled and the ABS and traction control indicator lamps are turned ON. Vehicles with ICCS2 will display the STABILITY REDUCED message on the DTC.

CONDITIONS FOR CLEARING THE DTC
Condition for DTC is no longer present and scan tool clear DTC function is used. Fifty start cycles have passed with no DTCs detected.

DIAGNOSTIC AIDS
When DTC C1255 is displayed on the scan tool, it will be followed by two more numbers which should be noted along with any other DTCs that may be displayed. The additional two numbers displayed with DTC C1255 are for aiding Engineering to determine the cause of the internal malfunction.

TEST DESCRIPTION
The numbers below refer to step numbers on the diagnostic table.

Checks for EBTCM damage.DCT c1255 dianostic chart.

1) Was the diagnostic system check peformed.
yes. go to step 2.
no . go to diagnostic system check.

2) Are any other DTC's present besides c1255
yes. Go to applicable DTC table.
no . go to step three.

3) 1.Turn the ignition switch to the off position.
2.Disconect the EBTCM.
3.Check for damaged, pushed out, or miswired terminals.
4.was any damage found.
yes. Go to step four.
no . go to step five.

4) Repair as necessary,Is the repair complete.

5) Replace EBTCM.:bonkers:

jimg
11-23-03, 04:09 AM
OK here's what I found hope this helps.:bighead: :bonkers:

By the way the first thing I would check is the EBTCM (ABS pump) connector. When you pulled the lower coolant hose while removing the engine some coolant probably leak onto EBTCM and was probably still there when the motor was reinstalled and is causing a short at this terminal. pull the connector and use an air gun to dry out the coolant then reconnect the terminal then clear the codes.

DCT c1242 BPMV pump motor curcuit open.

CIRCUIT DESCRIPTION
The BPMV pump motor ground is supplied through a ground stud on the pump motor to a good ground.

CONDITION FOR SETTING THE DTC
DTC C1242 can be set when the pump relay is commanded OFF. A malfunction exists if the pump motor ground CKT 350 resistance is greater than 6900 ohms.

ACTION TAKEN WHEN THE DTC SETS
A malfunction DTC is stored, ABS/TCS/ICCS is disabled and the ABS and traction control indicator lampsare turned ON. Vehicles with ICCS2 will display the STABILITY REDUCED message on the DIC.

CONDITIONS FOR CLEARING THE DTC
Condition for DTC is no longer present and scan tool clear DTC function is used. Fifty start cycles have passed with no DTCs detected.

DIAGNOSTIC AIDS
It is very important that a thorough inspection of the wiring and connectors be performed. Failure to carefully and fully inspect wiring and connectors may result in misdiagnosis, causing part replacement with reappearance of the malfunction. An intermittent malfunction can be caused by poor connections, broken insulation, or a wire that is broken inside the insulation.

TEST DESCRIPTION
The numbers below refer to step numbers on the diagnostic table.

Checks for good pump motor ground. Checks for good pump motor ground through the BPMV.
DTC c1255 EBTCM internal malfunction, ABS/TCS/ICCS dissabled.

CIRCUIT DESCRIPTION
This DTC identifies a malfunction within the EBTCM.

CONDITION FOR SETTING THE DTC
DTC C1255 is set when an internal EBTCM malfunction exists.

ACTION TAKEN WHEN THE DTC SETS
A malfunction DTC is stored, ABS/TCS/ICCS is disabled and the ABS and traction control indicator lamps are turned ON. Vehicles with ICCS2 will display the STABILITY REDUCED message on the DTC.

CONDITIONS FOR CLEARING THE DTC
Condition for DTC is no longer present and scan tool clear DTC function is used. Fifty start cycles have passed with no DTCs detected.

DIAGNOSTIC AIDS
When DTC C1255 is displayed on the scan tool, it will be followed by two more numbers which should be noted along with any other DTCs that may be displayed. The additional two numbers displayed with DTC C1255 are for aiding Engineering to determine the cause of the internal malfunction.

TEST DESCRIPTION
The numbers below refer to step numbers on the diagnostic table.

Checks for EBTCM damage.DCT c1255 dianostic chart.

1) Was the diagnostic system check peformed.
yes. go to step 2.
no . go to diagnostic system check.

2) Are any other DTC's present besides c1255
yes. Go to applicable DTC table.
no . go to step three.

3) 1.Turn the ignition switch to the off position.
2.Disconect the EBTCM.
3.Check for damaged, pushed out, or miswired terminals.
4.was any damage found.
yes. Go to step four.
no . go to step five.

4) Repair as necessary,Is the repair complete.

5) Replace EBTCM.:bonkers: Thanks so much,again, I will check it tomorrow morning, I know for sure, the connector had some anti-freeze on it. "I be the dummy " I should have known it is a highly sensative connection. I take it, the light green and yellow wire I spoke of ; doesn't get connected to anything? thanks jim g

epanightmare
11-24-03, 07:19 PM
Thanks so much,again, I will check it tomorrow morning, I know for sure, the connector had some anti-freeze on it. "I be the dummy " I should have known it is a highly sensative connection. I take it, the light green and yellow wire I spoke of ; doesn't get connected to anything? thanks jim g
the green and yellow probable dosn't go to anything, maybe a option your car dosn't have but is wired for.

let me know what you find..:)

elwesso
11-24-03, 07:27 PM
Yellow wires are related to SRS system!!

jimg
11-25-03, 07:17 AM
Thanks so much,again, I will check it tomorrow morning, I know for sure, the connector had some anti-freeze on it. "I be the dummy " I should have known it is a highly sensative connection. I take it, the light green and yellow wire I spoke of ; doesn't get connected to anything? thanks jim g
Thanks to you ; My nightmare is over! It was the ground the pump.Everything's fine now!thanks one last time Jim g

epanightmare
11-25-03, 07:53 PM
Thanks to you ; My nightmare is over! It was the ground the pump.Everything's fine now!thanks one last time Jim g
No problem glad i could help....:cool:

Aurora By Olds
12-06-03, 04:27 AM
I had no choice;but to drop it out the bottom . Please respond if you have ever sucessfully (actually done it) lifted 4.6 motor out the top of a 1997-1999 deville! Before removing the first bolt: I spoke with countless caddy certified mechanics that have removed engines many times on flatrate(minutes saved is money in there pocket) And they all agreed that the only way to remove engine or transmission; is to remove entire craddle including steering gear,axles,ect. I beleive,and I may be wrong that the 2000-up models are differant . I looked at the manuals,looked at the car,but short of taking a cuting torch to cross-over pipe which runs under oil pan(I took only drop oil pan about 1" ) The worst part is the wiring, the absence of major connectors,is unexcusalbe. (if you've done it you know what I mean.) I still haven't found out where the 4' long two wire connector(blue and yellow ) that comes out of the main anti-lock brake harness, goes . thanks jim gI dropped the cradle on my '95 Aurora (similar to STS) last weekend, and honest to god, it was the EASIEST FWD I have ever done. Every thing is very well laid out, heater hoses, wiring, etc. all was very easy to get to.
I took my time, but if I would have hurried, I could have had it ready to come out in about 1.5 hrs. (give or take for time to drain fluids) The only hard part I found was actually removing the car from the frame, as I tried it with jacks rather than my usual overhead winch. It was a bit tricky, but with a little help, it worked well.
The only FWD's I have done are the GM 3800 series I in a 1988 Delta 88 (two of these), a GM 3.1L in a 1989 Pont. GP, and a Quad Four (out and in about three times) from a 1991 Berretta GTZ. I would seriously do my Aurora over those three anyday. When these drivetrains were designed, someone was really thinking. Everything I tackle on this car amazes me on its design and layout. I am seriously impressed. Its actually fun to work on.
My amazement only grew as I dissasembled the engine down to the heads.
If I can only get it back together with my dream of a vin "9" 4.6 in place of the 4.0, I will be all set :D

doug morra
01-28-04, 11:14 PM
I know this thread is way outdated for this response, but I have a question!

I was driving on the highway and my abs and traction MIL came on. The codes are c1232 and c1255. Its snowy here in NY. Could it be that it is wet from the snow? Where is it located so I can check?

Any help is appreciated! This car is new to me. 98 deville.

doug








Thanks so much,again, I will check it tomorrow morning, I know for sure, the connector had some anti-freeze on it. "I be the dummy " I should have known it is a highly sensative connection. I take it, the light green and yellow wire I spoke of ; doesn't get connected to anything? thanks jim g