"What really cooks my engine oil is your knocking of Bob Lutz. Do you really think that Wall Street would be happy to see Lutz fired? Wake up. Lutz is the only one at the top of GM who knows anything about cars and trucks. You don't like the designs of some of the new cars. Well, Bob Lutz doesn't, either, but it's the best he's been able to get, given the time constraints, designs locked in before he came to GM, the company's policy of reusing ancient platforms and GM's bureaucracy.

"Look what GM was designing before Lutz: vehicles like the Pontiac Aztek. I have talked some people on GM's design staff. No one listened to them until Lutz joined the company. He raised morale down the line. If Lutz goes, forget morale and forget about empowering the car guys. That's all over.

"You don't like those old pushrod engines and four-speed automatics in new cars? Neither does Lutz. Dan, can't you figure it out? Former GM Chief Executive Officer Jack Smith let it be known that GM wasn't going to spend on stuff that he couldn't see. Well, he couldn't see pushrod engines and old transmissions under the hood. That's how GM saved money--by shortchanging the product. Lutz can't just snap his fingers to come up with billions of dollars needed to put 5 million modern automatic transmissions into production.

"Mr. Neil, you are one of those guys who wants to kill Pontiac and Buick. That's 800,000 sales last year. Kill them and GM is done. Any fool can say, "Fire this guy, kill that car, shut that plant." But the art is in building cars and trucks for which people are willing to pay list price."

http://www.forbes.com/columnists/columnists/2005/04/14/cz_jf_0414flint.html

Good post Ralph.

Good article, but it doesnt change the fact that Pontiac and Buick are bleeding red ink and causing a parasitic effect on the entire company. Taking one or both of those brands away may represent a short term financial downfall, but in the long run itll shore up more problems than it creates, and it will only serve to strengthen the rest of the brands.

good dig on that ralph ...thats what ive been saying all along ...these cars are bean countered to death ...

imagine how well the Malibu Maxx would sell if it had a beatter nose, the CTS 3.6 and 5 speed auto ...and the CTS 2.8 and 6 speed manual as the base powertrain ....

the car has been a lame duck because of its crappy rough powertrain and gutless acceleration ...and a nose that looks like barbra striesand was working with the clay ...

The Maxx SS still has a along way to go , the SS should have been the base car .....

I don't think pushrod motors are that big a problem honestly. They provide excellent powerbands, compact packaging, and can be made to create very nice power. Another key, is the location of power. Below 4000 RPMs, a pushrod will overpower most DOHC. However, part of GM's issue, imo, isn't the technologies, it's the mating of those technologies. They haven't built 1 fully good car in a while. The new Cadillac line is a step there, but still some issues. Essentially, most of GM's line of cars has some nice features, but almost none of them combine all those features in a cost effective manner. More on that later, just poking in at this hour.

when the class standard for a V6 is 240-250 hp and were coming to play a full 50 hp less with a engine that is no where near as smooth ....thats a problem ....

in fact a proper DOHC v6 is avaible in eurpoe for the Malibu ...but they chose to rehash what started out life as the 2.8v6 one more time .....

belive me this engine is harsh as hell , nothing like the beatter selling accord or camry v6......

its so bad saturn passed it up infavor of buying honda engines for the VUE ....

there is even a CVT tranny sitting in the parts bin that could have went into the malibu

i hate to harp on the malibu but its the best example of how they screwed the pooch on something that could have been a best seller ...

Good article, but it doesnt change the fact that Pontiac and Buick are bleeding red ink and causing a parasitic effect on the entire company. Taking one or both of those brands away may represent a short term financial downfall, but in the long run itll shore up more problems than it creates, and it will only serve to strengthen the rest of the brands.

I don't agree that is a good solution. If you want to continue that theory to it's ultimate end, you might as well dump ALL model line names and just call them all GM. No more Chevy, Pontiac, Buick etc. Just GM. The bean counters might enjoy it initially but I think it would really kill brand loyal shoppers, and that would certainly hurt the bottom-line.
I still think trimming each line to a more specific type of car in each line is the trick. Go ahead and keep all the brand lines (pontiac, Buick etc.) and make sure that there is virtually no overlap within GM product lines. All Buicks would be loyal to a specific style and road character, and the same for all the others. That way you keep all the brand-loyal shoppers, eliminate model overlap, and allow each brand to finally concentrate on what they do the best rather than trying to be something to everyone.

Good article, but it doesnt change the fact that Pontiac and Buick are bleeding red ink and causing a parasitic effect on the entire company. Taking one or both of those brands away may represent a short term financial downfall, but in the long run itll shore up more problems than it creates, and it will only serve to strengthen the rest of the brands.

Or it could kill GM PERIOD! That's a big risk and 800,000 less cars sold each year. The Olds demise was more damaging than keeping them around imo. Again, it could have been saved.

But that's what I worry about Ian.

Or it could kill GM PERIOD! That's a big risk and 800,000 less cars sold each year. The Olds demise was more damaging than keeping them around imo. Again, it could have been saved.

But that's what I worry about Ian.

I do think that Lutz was probably starting to get some "performance anxiety" in that position he was in for a while. There is nothing like coming in with a whole new perspective on things, tons of ideas, and a desire to make a change, only to be smacked head on by the policy and redundancy of the bean counters at GM.

Lutz had a ton of ideas and I think he had alot more drastic plans for the models in different brands, but in the end I think he probably ended up being responsible for some of Cadillac's resurgence, the Solstice and a few other things. Its like trying to steer a damn sea-going vessel without a rudder, you might as well just let it go and see where you end up.

I don't think pushrod motors are that big a problem honestly. They provide excellent powerbands, compact packaging, and can be made to create very nice power.

I don't disagree, but if Cadillac isn't competitive, when people go looking for a Lexus I'm sure the Lexus salesman would love to point out that Cadillac uses 100 year old technology in it's engines.

Enter the Northstar...

I don't disagree, but if Cadillac isn't competitive, when people go looking for a Lexus I'm sure the Lexus salesman would love to point out that Cadillac uses 100 year old technology in it's engines.

Enter the Northstar...

Yeah, but let them try to talk-down the CTS-V! :D

Yeah, but let them try to talk-down the CTS-V! :D

Exactly! It just seems that technology sells. All you hear advertized is about the car's toys and how it's "more advanced." That can be a downfall too.

I don't disagree, but if Cadillac isn't competitive, when people go looking for a Lexus I'm sure the Lexus salesman would love to point out that Cadillac uses 100 year old technology in it's engines.

Enter the Northstar...

hmmm... if they are saying that Cadillac uses 100 year old technology.... then what do they say about their cars? 120 year old technology?

OHC designs were out before OHV was.... just looking at the idea of how each works makes it obvious.

Plus, the first Cadillac in 1903 had variable valve timing and rack and pinon steering.... so isn't every one using 100 year old technology?

plus, what is wrong with sticking to something that works? I would take a tried and true, solid design... like, say the 3800 V6 over any "new" stuff today.

I personally believe that with enough time, the s/c 3800 V6 could push well over 300hp in stock form, it would be the best V6 in that market segment out there. As it is now the s/c 3800 is 240hp, a simple pully swap will bring it around 275hp, maybe up grade the s/c and some other things, and there is an engine that will kick ass. Why can you buy a '97-'03 Grand Prix GTP, spend $500 in mods, and run 13's?

Plus, the first Cadillac in 1903 had variable valve timing and rack and pinon steering.... so isn't every one using 100 year old technology?


If that's true, I had no idea. How many Lexus buyers know that? VVT sure has been promoted as a "newer technology" most predominantly in Honda's IMO. Why should Cadillac's "toys" breakdown more than Lexuse's "toys?" If Lexus had a couple more issues, I would bet Cadillac would be considered the best car on the road today!

Fix 'em, make 'em RIGHT!!! Test test and then TEST AGAIN before releasing a car to the public!

you know what is causing things to break down so much? all the freaking "new technology" that is not needed!

Of course with a luxury car it will have all the extras and stuff... but still, take my '93 DeVille for example, a great mix of new and old technology. an O2 sensor costs $20. An O2 sensor for my cousins '01 Stratus is $140. My spark plug wires are $35 for 8, my friends spark plug wires for a '94 Jetta were $90 for 4 plus a coil wire (5 total). The water pump on my Oldsmobile was such an easy task to replace, I can do it in less then 2 hours, on that same Jetta *every* accessory had to be removed, all the pullies, the timing belt (which had to be aligned with the crank, cam *AND* distrubutor gear) and took 2 days.

The day the Corvette gets a DOHC engine as it's only power plant will be the day that many people turn away from GM

But pushrod technology is still around... check out the C5 Z06, 405hp and it would get 20mpg around town... all from a pushrod enigne. I think we are too worried about playing "get what the Europeans and Japaneese have" instead of working on what we know best... If GM made such an amazing pushrod engine, have the Japaneese copy our designs, not the other way around... hell, 2 amazing pushrod engines come to mind... the Chevy 350 and the Buick 3800.... these engines are now gone for the most part... although there are newer versions of them around, but they could have easily been global market engines...

http://web.telia.com/~u85308305/Trivia.htm

kinda a repeat, but this is always my reply to the whole "old technology" thing:

1903 - Cadillac Model A Runabout with rack-and-pinion steering, variable intake-valve timing debuts at the New York Auto Show. Powered by a single-cylinder 10-horsepower engine, it traveled at over 30 miles per hour and got 25 miles per gallon.

Just say the first Cadillac made in 1903 had rack and pinion steering, variable valve timing and got 25MPG... it shuts people up :)

I guess we have the whole timeline on our site... check it out... not lets hear of some things Toyota, Honda or Nissan invented or was the first to do something of:

http://www.cadillacforums.com/cadillac-history.html

I know one thing, Toyota tells people that the headlights that turn on the new Lexus SUV were first ever in a car and such new technology... it was at the auto show in NYC last year. I waited until the end and the girl asked if there were any questions, I asked how can the turning headlights be a new concept if the 1948 Tucker had them. She was dubfounded and quickly left my question un answered as she moved on....

companys will tell you anything that you want to hear to sell you something, even if it is false. So next time you see some rich yuppie driving his Lexus SUV, make sure to tell them that the "new, never before seen headlights that turn" were in fact standard on a car that is 57 years old :)

I mean, I can go on and on about the whole "old technology" thing... the fact is, that as long as internal combustion engines are being used in cars, EVERYTHING is "old" technology from the late 1800's.... OHC, OHV, any of that... what is "new" stuff is things that are simply added to these engines... fuel injection, all the sensors, coil pack ignition etc... and also things added to the cars... GPS, night vision and all the other electronic goodies. But until we start driving electric cars, or alternative fuel vehicles, then the new vs. old technology argument is just a way for some car compaines to make money.

What I also find funny is, with all the new technology, in some cases, it hasn't made THAT much of a difference....

What I mean is, I saw a commercial on TV for the Yukon, with a "best in V8 class" 16/20mpg (2wd)... and it got me thinking... a new 2wd SUV is only getting 16/20mpg? and this is "best in class"... well, lets go back to 1979, my car weighs close to what the Yukon weighs, both have aerodynamics of 2 bricks stacked on top of each other, I have a 7.0L carburated engine, the Yukon has the new 5.3L fuel injected engine (right?) and I have an old 3 speed trans without over drive, while the Yukon has a 4 spd with over drive.... and yet if my car was in good tuned condition I get 2mpg, if that less around town, and near the same on the highway...... Sure you can simply say, it is a car vs. truck... but not so... in the 70's there were huge land yatchs, today there are huge SUVs, both 2WD, similar weight and aerodynamics, hell my '79 DeVille is longer then a new Yukon... these are very much similar in comparison (throw 4WD on the Yukon and it is probably getting the same, if not worse mileage then my '79)

I know if I was in the market for a midsize family sedan type car, my choice would be simple. Any 3800 V6 powered GM car.... late 90's Eighty Eight, Grand Prix/Bonnieville, Regal/LeSabre etc....

My father's '99 GP GTP with over 100k gets 22mpg around town and 32 on the highway... he has the smaller s/c pully, new exhaust and some other very basic work done.... and that thing pulls like a beast, runs low 14's and is insane.... yet still extremly reliable, easy to work on and cheap to get parts for. There are only a few engines that I stick by so much for many reasons such as, power, reliability, gas mileage and everything else, and one of those engines is the 3800 V6. In fact if my next car wasn't going to be either a classic car, or a newer sporty car with a manual transmission (really want a manual) then it would be a s/c 3800.... preferably an Eighty Eight LSS or a Regal GS.

and, while on the 3800 note... lets not forget what GM/Buick were doing with the turbo 3.8 in the Grand National in 1984.... hell, I don't even need to get going on that... now picture a new Grand National, with the same 3.8 V6.... with 20 years of newer designs..... gosh if GM spent the time and money on things like this instead of completly new engines, the whole divsion could be turned around....

hell my '89 Olds with 130k, the 3800 gets 22mpg around town and 33 on the highway, regular gas and a heavy foot.... with enough power to make the car more then hold its own 16 years later (is a 1989 Honda Accord or Toyota Camery a speedster today?) in fact my 16 year old Oldsmobile has more power and torque numbers, and similar gas mileage to that of my friends '01 Jetta 1.8T.....

Think outside the box, we have some great engines... there is no reason to dump them and do better.... improve what you have already.

you know what is causing things to break down so much? all the freaking "new technology" that is not needed!

Of course with a luxury car it will have all the extras and stuff... but still, take my '93 DeVille for example, a great mix of new and old technology. an O2 sensor costs $20. An O2 sensor for my cousins '01 Stratus is $140. My spark plug wires are $35 for 8, my friends spark plug wires for a '94 Jetta were $90 for 4 plus a coil wire (5 total). The water pump on my Oldsmobile was such an easy task to replace, I can do it in less then 2 hours, on that same Jetta *every* accessory had to be removed, all the pullies, the timing belt (which had to be aligned with the crank, cam *AND* distrubutor gear) and took 2 days.

The day the Corvette gets a DOHC engine as it's only power plant will be the day that many people turn away from GM

But pushrod technology is still around... check out the C5 Z06, 405hp and it would get 20mpg around town... all from a pushrod enigne. I think we are too worried about playing "get what the Europeans and Japaneese have" instead of working on what we know best... If GM made such an amazing pushrod engine, have the Japaneese copy our designs, not the other way around... hell, 2 amazing pushrod engines come to mind... the Chevy 350 and the Buick 3800.... these engines are now gone for the most part... although there are newer versions of them around, but they could have easily been global market engines...

http://web.telia.com/~u85308305/Trivia.htm

Good points and good link! I emailed it to a couple friends. For Corvette, I agree, but for luxury cars the technology sells. It's like a technology toy war and one make cannot be outdone by the other. I'm sure Lexus has some problems and I've read here somewhere that they don't announce "issues" as much like the sludge problem in some Toyota/Lexus engines. I've read links where they flat out refuse to fix the issue even under warrenty. Maybe this is because they don't want to have a reputation of recalls. I would rather be with a company that officially acknowledged a recall and offered to fix the problem than one that might try to hide it.

I'm sure Ian will clue in... :sneaky:

you know what is causing things to break down so much? all the freaking "new technology" that is not needed!

Of course with a luxury car it will have all the extras and stuff... but still, take my '93 DeVille for example, a great mix of new and old technology. an O2 sensor costs $20. An O2 sensor for my cousins '01 Stratus is $140. My spark plug wires are $35 for 8, my friends spark plug wires for a '94 Jetta were $90 for 4 plus a coil wire (5 total). The water pump on my Oldsmobile was such an easy task to replace, I can do it in less then 2 hours, on that same Jetta *every* accessory had to be removed, all the pullies, the timing belt (which had to be aligned with the crank, cam *AND* distrubutor gear) and took 2 days.

The day the Corvette gets a DOHC engine as it's only power plant will be the day that many people turn away from GM

But pushrod technology is still around... check out the C5 Z06, 405hp and it would get 20mpg around town... all from a pushrod enigne. I think we are too worried about playing "get what the Europeans and Japaneese have" instead of working on what we know best... If GM made such an amazing pushrod engine, have the Japaneese copy our designs, not the other way around... hell, 2 amazing pushrod engines come to mind... the Chevy 350 and the Buick 3800.... these engines are now gone for the most part... although there are newer versions of them around, but they could have easily been global market engines...

http://web.telia.com/~u85308305/Trivia.htm

Good points and good link! I emailed it to a couple friends. For Corvette, I agree, but for luxury cars the technology sells. It's like a technology toy war and one make cannot be outdone by the other. I'm sure Lexus has some problems and I've read here somewhere that they don't announce "issues" as much like the sludge problem in some Toyota/Lexus engines. I've read links where they flat out refuse to fix the issue even under warrenty. Maybe this is because they don't want to have a reputation of recalls. I would rather be with a company that officially acknowledged a recall and offered to fix the problem than one that might try to hide it. (if true)

I'm sure Ian will clue in... :sneaky:

you know what is causing things to break down so much? all the freaking "new technology" that is not needed!

Of course with a luxury car it will have all the extras and stuff... but still, take my '93 DeVille for example, a great mix of new and old technology. an O2 sensor costs $20. An O2 sensor for my cousins '01 Stratus is $140. My spark plug wires are $35 for 8, my friends spark plug wires for a '94 Jetta were $90 for 4 plus a coil wire (5 total). The water pump on my Oldsmobile was such an easy task to replace, I can do it in less then 2 hours, on that same Jetta *every* accessory had to be removed, all the pullies, the timing belt (which had to be aligned with the crank, cam *AND* distrubutor gear) and took 2 days.

The day the Corvette gets a DOHC engine as it's only power plant will be the day that many people turn away from GM

But pushrod technology is still around... check out the C5 Z06, 405hp and it would get 20mpg around town... all from a pushrod enigne. I think we are too worried about playing "get what the Europeans and Japaneese have" instead of working on what we know best... If GM made such an amazing pushrod engine, have the Japaneese copy our designs, not the other way around... hell, 2 amazing pushrod engines come to mind... the Chevy 350 and the Buick 3800.... these engines are now gone for the most part... although there are newer versions of them around, but they could have easily been global market engines...

http://web.telia.com/~u85308305/Trivia.htm

kinda a repeat, but this is always my reply to the whole "old technology" thing:



Just say the first Cadillac made in 1903 had rack and pinion steering, variable valve timing and got 25MPG... it shuts people up :)

I guess we have the whole timeline on our site... check it out... not lets hear of some things Toyota, Honda or Nissan invented or was the first to do something of:

http://www.cadillacforums.com/cadillac-history.html

I know one thing, Toyota tells people that the headlights that turn on the new Lexus SUV were first ever in a car and such new technology... it was at the auto show in NYC last year. I waited until the end and the girl asked if there were any questions, I asked how can the turning headlights be a new concept if the 1948 Tucker had them. She was dubfounded and quickly left my question un answered as she moved on....

companys will tell you anything that you want to hear to sell you something, even if it is false. So next time you see some rich yuppie driving his Lexus SUV, make sure to tell them that the "new, never before seen headlights that turn" were in fact standard on a car that is 57 years old :)

I mean, I can go on and on about the whole "old technology" thing... the fact is, that as long as internal combustion engines are being used in cars, EVERYTHING is "old" technology from the late 1800's.... OHC, OHV, any of that... what is "new" stuff is things that are simply added to these engines... fuel injection, all the sensors, coil pack ignition etc... and also things added to the cars... GPS, night vision and all the other electronic goodies. But until we start driving electric cars, or alternative fuel vehicles, then the new vs. old technology argument is just a way for some car compaines to make money.

What I also find funny is, with all the new technology, in some cases, it hasn't made THAT much of a difference....

What I mean is, I saw a commercial on TV for the Yukon, with a "best in V8 class" 16/20mpg (2wd)... and it got me thinking... a new 2wd SUV is only getting 16/20mpg? and this is "best in class"... well, lets go back to 1979, my car weighs close to what the Yukon weighs, both have aerodynamics of 2 bricks stacked on top of each other, I have a 7.0L carburated engine, the Yukon has the new 5.3L fuel injected engine (right?) and I have an old 3 speed trans without over drive, while the Yukon has a 4 spd with over drive.... and yet if my car was in good tuned condition I get 2mpg, if that less around town, and near the same on the highway...... Sure you can simply say, it is a car vs. truck... but not so... in the 70's there were huge land yatchs, today there are huge SUVs, both 2WD, similar weight and aerodynamics, hell my '79 DeVille is longer then a new Yukon... these are very much similar in comparison (throw 4WD on the Yukon and it is probably getting the same, if not worse mileage then my '79)

I know if I was in the market for a midsize family sedan type car, my choice would be simple. Any 3800 V6 powered GM car.... late 90's Eighty Eight, Grand Prix/Bonnieville, Regal/LeSabre etc....

My father's '99 GP GTP with over 100k gets 22mpg around town and 32 on the highway... he has the smaller s/c pully, new exhaust and some other very basic work done.... and that thing pulls like a beast, runs low 14's and is insane.... yet still extremly reliable, easy to work on and cheap to get parts for. There are only a few engines that I stick by so much for many reasons such as, power, reliability, gas mileage and everything else, then the 3800 V6. In fact if my next car wasn't going to be either a classic car, or a newer sporty car with a manual transmission (really want a manual) then it would be a s/c 3800.... preferably an Eighty Eight LSS or a Regal GS.

hell my '89 Olds with 130k, the 3800 gets 22mpg around town and 33 on the highway.... with enough power to make the car more then hold its own 16 years later (is a 1989 Honda Accord or Toyota Camery a speedster today?) in fact my 16 year old Oldsmobile has more power and torque numbers, and similar gas mileage to that of my friends '01 Jetta 1.8T.....

Think outside the box, we have some great engines... there is no reason to dump them and do better.... improve what you have already.

I think we found your area of expertise! :yup:

Wow Ralph, you are quick!

I agree with the statement that luxury cars are always in these wars, and Cadillac has, over the last 100 years, led these wars.... in that case, I think it is ok... but Cadillac already has an amazing high technology engine... the NorthStar, and they have since 1993!.... now today, it is being s/c and making even more power!...... stick with a great design and throw all the extra gizmos in the car itself... not the engine.

Know what else is really funny?

how about for the compact cars... today all the rage is 4 cylinders, high hp etc...

what about a 180hp/165ft-lbs torque engine with 2.3L displacement and DOHC?

Back in 1989 GM with the Quad4 HO was making exactly that. Honda is still yet to come up with numbers like that for a "regular" 4 banger (not talking about the S2000 or something) but the Quad4 HO went into cars like the Pontiac Grand Am and Oldsmobile Cutlass.... tied with a 5 speed manual, it was one quick car!. But with all the imports and stuff it kinda got mushed in with the rest of the cars.... but back when a Honda Accord was lucky to get even 100hp, we had 180hp..... hell, the rare W41 package on the Cutlass 442 brought the same Quad 4 to 190HP!

When you look between the lines, you see that GM has had amazing engines throughout time, both big, small, high power or good on gas.... It is really funny how we have already beat the imports at their own game, but car mags are biased, which is what alot of people rely on, and the overall sense of people is imports > domestics.

Perhaps one thing GM does need to work on (and has been doing a great job of) is interrior fit and finish. Honeslty, in the '90s it sucked.... *this* is where Toyota excels, not engines. My fathers '99 Grand Prix GTP, liek I said, insane when it comes to performance, but the interrior is junk.... hard plastics, big gaps, no real feel of quality to anything. Atleast Cadillac didn't suffer as much, the interriors in the '90's were rather good...

But GM should focus on things like the fit and feel, and overall stuff like that, not putting more junk into newer engines to try and sell cars..... also maybe work on that too... sell cars instead of more trucks... like cancling the '08 line of RWD cars to produce more SUV's (whole 'nother argument though)

gah.... here is how I see it though... no matter what the market does, I will always have my 3 "old tech" pushrod cars. No mater what the market does my dream cars such as a 1955 Coupe DeVille, 1959 Eldorado convertible and a 1968 Coupe DeVille convertible will always be around.... so in that respect, I coudln't really care less what the new car market does, as these classics, which are far more cooler then new cars will always be around, with their "old tech" designes.... there... waiting for me to buy, drive and truely enjoy.

I've never had a thread "stickied" before, but I would say THIS one could be. :shhh: :)

you win Ralph... I gotta go to sleep.. it is 1:30AM... I gotta get up around 5:15 to eat and go to work.... less then 4 hours of sleep... yey...

BTW nearing 10,000 posts I see, go do your whoring and be the first CO member to reach 10k :)

good night :)

BTW nearing 10,000 posts I see, go do your whoring and be the first CO member to reach 10k :)

11:36 p.m. here....

I know!!! Is there ANY way to make it STOP??!! :( OMG, 20 to go!! I can do that in 5 minutes! :rolleyes2

I know, if Sal suddenly got bit by the German bug and turned this into Mercedes Benz/BMW Owner's Forum, I don't think I would post as much! :thumbsup:

http://www.autospies.com/article/index.asp?articleID=4096

Not a Cadillac in site.....many Benz and a couple Lexus problems though..


"2003 Mercedes SL 500 Designo introductory model –purchased new in April 2002 – This vehicle was in the shop so often it made ownership a misery. Main issue was electrical/safety, after five visits in the first year for diagnoses and attempted repairs the Mercedes dealership mechanics still could not get the headlights to work consistently. In daily use, the worst thing about this car was not the electrical malfunctions but the leather/suede trim of the Designo edition. This trim could not handle the high heat and humidity of Houston Texas, it smelled like cat’s piss – the car not the city! Conversations with another owner of the same SL500 Designo model (and also with the Mercedes dealer’s mechanics) confirm that this outrageous smell is widespread in the Southern US with the designo trim – it may be due to the suede, or perhaps the glue."

LEXUS...trouble in paradise?....

"LS430: Ultimate Heap!
Comment: My wife insisted that we purchase a 2000 LS430 when it first debuted. Unfortunately I didn't put my foot down fast enough and we ended up leasing a white one for 4 years. I must admit that I never really liked the LS from the start, but the more I tried to like it and the longer I owned it, the more I wished we could get rid of it.

The exterior is a blatant rip-off of the Mercedes S class and the interior looks like a combination of Camry and Avalon parts/styling. I actually liked the interior at first, but then I realized how tacky it was and how closely it resembled a leather clad Camry

As far as the "legendary" Toyota reliability is concerned... well let's just say we must have picked a lemon. At around 16k miles, I started up the car and was greeted by a barrage of error codes stating that ABS and VSC were inactive. Some sort of control module needed to be replaced under warranty and I didn’t pay a dime; however, I did have to wait 5 days for Lexus to order and receive the part, and I also had to take an entire day off work because my 9:30am service appointment kept getting delayed until well after lunch. We had smooth sailing after that until 46k miles when the transmission began acting up and had to be repaired, out of warranty, to the tune of nearly $2500.

Another downside to the LS, is its piss-poor performance. The steering is vague and uncommunicative, body roll aplenty and the suspension is a bit too soft for my taste. I always knew that the LS wasn't the most agile of its competitors, but I didn't realize how poorly it performed until a C&D article confirmed my suspicions. The only thing the LS does well is accelerate in a straight line. The brakes are horrible and it has the longest in class stopping distance. Road-holding and skid-pad are nearly worse than my aging '92 Silverado work truck. Who says you can't have luxury and performance? Apparently Lexus does.

Basically, the only thing we found the LS430 to do well was comfort. The interior, although very camry-esque, is plush and comfortable. The ride is very smooth and soft and it tracks straight as an arrow. In the end, the LS430 fell short of my expectations in all areas except comfort. Its styling, performance, reliability, features and overall feel were below par in my book, especially considering what can be had from the competition."

Cadillac??? One to go please. :elvis1:

Guy I know worked with Bob Lutz. Said he was mostly an ignorant blowhard who didnt listen to people or display a whole lot of knowledge.

Guy I know worked with Bob Lutz. Said he was mostly an ignorant blowhard who didnt listen to people or display a whole lot of knowledge.

He probably had to be that way to get the "old diehards" to listen to some new ideas. As a leader, you would have to get tough on things. I could imagine it would not be easy to convince people to make drastic changes for the better with regards to certain issues at GM.

Here's an interesting excerpt from a new book which features Lutz.

http://www.thecarconnection.com/Enthusiasts/Book_Reviews_Excerpts/Excerpt_Bob_Lutz_and_Six_Men.S205.A8615.html

http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=102730

Lutz speaks...

"Beginning with the Pontiac Solstice, obviously, which was almost the first order of business when I got to GM, Sky, HHR, certainly the new Malibu, the Buick Lucerne, all of these reflect my coaching of the team. I don’t do these cars, I never do these cars, but I’m like the coach who guides the team, I can’t play designer myself because I’m not much of an artist, but the role of management is that designers are basically artists, and any automobile company has a collection of designers that can adequately render automobiles. We have clay modeling solutions, but when I was at Chrysler, the best thing people would say to me was that I threw out the designers who did the K-Car, and I said, guess what, same designers, because designers are not the people who determine what you do, they basically execute senior management decisions."

"The Honda Element is strong. It is not a whole lot better than the Aztec. On the other hand, if the Aztec had come out as a Toyota, people would have bought it. The Honda Ridgeline – it’s a cute little truck, they spent very little money. It was well-accepted. Strong brands can get away with semi-weak styling and design. We need the compelling design to get people to buy it, and it really takes a car like a G6 coupe or a Pontiac Solstice to get people into a Pontiac showroom. And I’ve gotten a lot of e-mails from people who said they would never set foot in a Pontiac showroom, except the Pontiac Solstice pulled them in. The same thing happened with the Dodge Viper. The average ownership of another Chrysler product was 1 in 10. Five years later, among Viper buyers, it’s 5 in 5. A lot of the Viper owners never been to a Dodge dealership, but now they’re buying a Dodge pickup, a minivan, a Neon for their daughters."

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Columns/articleId=106326

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Columns/articleId=106326

Good to hear. Now perhaps people will stop pointing fingers at him for the situation in the past while. Considering HE doesn't actually design the cars himself....