: Acetone and the Northstar



eldorado1
05-09-05, 08:57 PM
Anybody seen this?

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Acetone_as_a_Fuel_Additive

Supposedly adding a few ounces of acetone to your tank at fillup cuts the surface tension of the gasoline, and/or stabilizes the flame front (I've heard 2 different stories), allowing you to more efficiently combust the fuel... Giving you 10-70% better gas mileage. I'm on a yahoo list, and everyday people are reporting these gains... The larger gains tend to come from the cars with poorer gas mileage to begin with (larger displacement, older EFI).

My concerns are dissolving the injector or fuel pump winding enamel... and specifically in the case of the northstar powered cars, the plastic fuel rail (although that was "taken care of" for most cars by the recall) But the concentration of 0.02% seems to be almost moot.

Thoughts? Comments? I'm doing a blind study right now, so we'll see if it works... ;)

If it does work, I'll probably toss some in the northstar gokart... Even a 10% gain will offset the costs of the acetone (with the $2.29 /gal premium) http://cadillacforums.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif

powerglide
05-09-05, 11:01 PM
Anybody seen this?

..... Giving you 10-70% better gas mileage.

no way....I find that hard to believe.

I don't think its gonna be good for your car neither.

If its that simple to get that kinda fuel savings, there will be gas stands sellin acetone dosed fuel to begin with no?

danbuc
05-09-05, 11:25 PM
Paint thinner does not belong in the gas tank. "Reduced surface tension"...how is that going to change the volatility of the fuel? Acetone is very corrosive, and probably one of the worst things you could put in your car, other then something like Bleach.

Ranger
05-09-05, 11:44 PM
"If it sounds too good to be true........." Acetone is bound to eat the insulation off the fuel pump windings. I would not put that stuff near my fuel tank, much less in it.

eldorado1
05-09-05, 11:51 PM
If its that simple to get that kinda fuel savings, there will be gas stands sellin acetone dosed fuel to begin with no?

Yes! Brilliant! Lets sell our customers something that will keep them away from our gas stations! ;)

eldorado1
05-09-05, 11:59 PM
"If it sounds too good to be true........." Acetone is bound to eat the insulation off the fuel pump windings. I would not put that stuff near my fuel tank, much less in it.

Well think of it this way...... If you save $100 a year absolute worst case, and cut the life of your fuel pump in half (say 5 years), you'll still come out ahead ;)

There are at least 100 documented cases of it working as described, and about 10 or so where it detrimentally effected the gas mileage... It's been used in everything from 2004 trucks to lawn mowers. I find it fascinating.

eldorado1
05-10-05, 12:12 AM
Paint thinner does not belong in the gas tank. "Reduced surface tension"...how is that going to change the volatility of the fuel? Acetone is very corrosive, and probably one of the worst things you could put in your car, other then something like Bleach.

I'm sure you could say the same thing about Benzene, Xylene, Toluene, MTBE, etc etc.

btw - all the above (save mtbe) are paint thinners as well, and are found in various concentrations of up to 15% in your gasoline. :hmm:

danbuc
05-10-05, 12:15 AM
What I would be most concerned with, would be the injectors. If that coating get stripped off, then they're junk. Even some fuel rail/injector cleaners can damage that stuff.

Ranger
05-10-05, 12:26 AM
What I would be most concerned with, would be the injectors. If that coating get stripped off, then they're junk. Even some fuel rail/injector cleaners can damage that stuff.
That is true. You would have to add the cost of 8 injectors to the fuel pump/gas savings equation. I find it very interesting also but I would not try it. Again I have to fall back on the, if it sounds to good to be true theory.

eldorado1
05-10-05, 12:30 AM
What I would be most concerned with, would be the injectors. If that coating get stripped off, then they're junk. Even some fuel rail/injector cleaners can damage that stuff.

My thinking is, if it can survive the above at 15% concentrations, it can surely survive acetone at 0.02% concentrations. If it doesn't, they can be chalked up as another "consumable" wear item, because if it gets me an extra 10% fuel economy, that's $150 a year. If it gets me an extra 30%, that's $450 a year, and that will cover any necessary consumables, assuming I don't have to replace injectors every year of course... ;) But a dozen people or so have been running this for 6+ months with no problems whatsoever... Not that I'm ever lucky or anything ;)

by the way - IF it does get 30% better mileage, AND it completely destroys my injectors annually, I'll still use it... I'd rather have my money go to GM rather than greedy oil _insert word here_'s ;)

danbuc
05-10-05, 12:42 AM
Only newer injectors have this coating, so older car's may not be affected by the acetone in this way. New injectors for a caddy are around $200, and that's on ebay. That plus whatever the cost of labor is to put them in (unless you do it yourself), is not worth saving an extra $150 a year, since you'll still spend at least twice as much on broken parts.

If you do try this, make sure you get the magnetic fuel de-ionizer, to straighten out the molecules of gasoline. I've heard it helps the combustion as well as fuel economy. :thumbsup:

BeelzeBob
05-10-05, 12:43 AM
I'd put the acetone in the tank down as an urban legend. Total BS.

It was probably started by the company that sells acetone. There sales must have skyrocketed due to all the internet traffic that is getting.

Acetone does NOT belong in your gas tank.

If you understand the turbulence and mixture motion inside the combustion chamber the idea of acetone "reducing the surface tension of the fuel" and improving atomization is ludicrous.

If you insist on trying it, throw in a turbonator and several fuel line magnets at the same time. They will do just as much as the acetone. Nothing.

eldorado1
05-10-05, 12:46 AM
Only newer injectors have this coating, so older car's may not be affected by the acetone in this way.

What coating? I assumed you were talking about the injector coil windings?




If you do try this, make sure you get the magnetic fuel de-ionizer, to straighten out the molecules of gasoline. I've heard it helps the combustion as well as fuel economy. :thumbsup:
Yeah, we'll see who's laughing when the results come back :yup:

eldorado1
05-10-05, 12:49 AM
If you understand the turbulence and mixture motion inside the combustion chamber the idea of acetone "reducing the surface tension of the fuel" and improving atomization is ludicrous.

That's just one of the theories of how it works... I'm not a chemical engineer, so I don't know much about it, but the other theory is that it stabilizes the flame front, giving more complete combustion...



If you insist on trying it, throw in a turbonator and several fuel line magnets at the same time. They will do just as much as the acetone. Nothing.
Not you too... :p

danbuc
05-10-05, 12:51 AM
The coating is there to help prevent build up of crud and dirt, which can cause the injector to stick. Removing this coating can permanently damage the injector, causing it to leak of fail. I know who will be laughing when you fuel pump fails, and you need to buy 8 new injectors. Just remember, if something goes wrong, don't come crying to us about all the stuff you damaged from putting paint thinner in your gas tank.

eldorado1
05-10-05, 12:56 AM
The coating is there to help prevent build up of crud and dirt, which can cause the injector to stick. Removing this coating can permanently damage the injector, causing it to leak of fail. I know who will be laughing when you fuel pump fails, and you need to buy 8 new injectors.


On the pintle? Or what? This is the first I've ever heard of this coating... What injectors use it? When did it start???


Just remember, if something goes wrong, don't come crying to us about all the stuff you damaged from putting paint thinner in your gas tank.
Deal. I'll also post about it here, as a warning to others who may want to try it.

dkozloski
05-10-05, 01:07 AM
You're going to need the "Platinum Gas Saver" and the "Electronic Supercharger" as well. Be sure you have a can handy to drain the tank so it doesn't over flow. You might also want to stop by the tatoo shop on the way home and have gullible written across your forehead.

eldorado1
05-10-05, 01:13 AM
and the "Electronic Supercharger" as well.

You mean like one of these?
http://turbomagazine.com/tech/0406tur_knight02_z.jpg



You might also want to stop by the tatoo shop on the way home and have gullible written across your forehead.
No... I don't like needles.

Spyder
05-10-05, 01:20 AM
I used DOT 3 once, because I couldn't find any soap when I wanted to wash my caddy, and it made my car sooo SHINY!!! I was blinded when the sun was out!

eldorado1
05-10-05, 01:26 AM
I used DOT 3 once, because I couldn't find any soap when I wanted to wash my caddy, and it made my car sooo SHINY!!! I was blinded when the sun was out!

You know, with some clearcoat, you'd have some delorean-like action going there... I think it'd look good.

Spyder
05-10-05, 03:37 AM
Yea, but the rust showed up about three minutes later, so I just had it repainted the original color...good as new!

powerglide
05-10-05, 05:17 AM
Yes! Brilliant! Lets sell our customers something that will keep them away from our gas stations! ;)

There's a pricepoint that works for everything.....besides, if someone formulated a new type of gasoline that gave you better mileage don't you think consumers would wanna buy it? Besides, its hard to believe that all the gas stands would form a pact to keep it out.......it'll hit the market in one form or another (as an additive of whatever....if it really worked...which it doesn't.....)

eldorado1
05-10-05, 10:22 AM
There's a pricepoint that works for everything.....besides, if someone formulated a new type of gasoline that gave you better mileage don't you think consumers would wanna buy it? Besides, its hard to believe that all the gas stands would form a pact to keep it out.......it'll hit the market in one form or another (as an additive of whatever....if it really worked...which it doesn't.....)

"
Roger Crawford, a businessman and independent researcher in Midland, Texas, takes a different approach to fuel economy. He has just begun marketing a gas additive he calls "XtraMPG." He says it boosts octane, burns cleaner and enables motorists to get better fuel economy and buy less expensive grades of gas -- saving 10 to 15 percent overall on gas.

What's in XtraMPG? "Most of us know it as nail polish remover," Crawford says. "It is simple acetone, a nonhazardous organic chemical ... rated at 150 octane.""


"xtrampg.com" appears to be down though, otherwise I'd post a link. ;)

danbuc
05-10-05, 12:20 PM
I was wondering if burnt acetone will adversely affect the platinum, palladium, or rhodium in the catalytic converter. Also, if it act anyting like aclohol in gasoline does, it will only decrease fuel economy. You shoudl try putting Mothballs in your gas tank. They did that on mythbuster's and it worked pretty good.

dkozloski
05-10-05, 01:25 PM
The Electronic Supercharger was a thing that went under your distributor cap that looked to me like it promoted cross fires to "energize" the fuel mixture. There were also some spark gaps that plugged into the middle of the plug wires to tear up your radio reception.

WoodShoe
05-10-05, 01:40 PM
Mothballs in your gastank episode? Dang I missed it. What happened?

dkozloski
05-10-05, 01:49 PM
Years ago the aviation industry converted to a fuel known as 100LL or "low lead". Because tetraethyl lead is such an efficient octane improving additive there were a lot of problems coming up with a substitute that would make the new fuel work as well as the old 100/130 grade. Soon after 100LL was introduced some strange incidents were reported. Fuel system components were reported to have disappeared from some aircraft. Most of these were plastics. Some aircraft would not run because the rubber tipped carburetor float needle would swell up so large that fuel would no longer flow. Old time petroleum engineers were consulted by the "new breed". The old timers asked what the heck they were putting in the fuel to replace the TEL. When presented with the list they announced; "We tried this stuff during WWII and got the same kind of complaints. You better go back to the drawing board.". It turned out that the worst offender was toluene. Aromatic hydrocarbons are good octane improvers because they have ring chain molecules. Straight chain hydrocarbons like lubricating oils and kerosene are the worst. Iso-octane has branches off the main chain that give it it's slow burning properties. Aromatic hydrocarbons have very strong solvent properties which cause the problems but is also why they are added to stuff like Stoddard Solvent so they will clean parts efficiently. During WWII the Germans made gasoline from coal that was a reasonable octane rating (about 93) but was very high in aromatics and did damage to fuel systems.

dkozloski
05-10-05, 02:08 PM
When WWII started, the U.S. was the only country in the world that had standardized on a very high grade aviation fuel 100/130 octane(100 lean mixture/130 rich mixture). Everybody else was using stuff you would be reluctant to use in your cigarette lighter. Thanks to Shell oil company and a salesman of theirs by the name of Lt. Col. Jimmy Doolittle when it came time to drop the A-bomb on the Japanese we had an airplane with enough performance to deliver it. All of the other countries were using fuel with an octane rating in the low 90's unless we gave it to them. By the end of the war we were using 115/145 octane on a regular basis and there was even some 165 octane being tested. With this stuff some engines were capable of over 150 BHP/liter. The Sabre II was 36L in displacement and was putting out 5500HP. Installed in the Hawker Tempest, it was the only machine that the allies had that would catch a V1 "Buzz Bomb" in a tail chase. They shot down over 600 of the nasty little things.

turbojimmy
05-10-05, 02:19 PM
Yea, but the rust showed up about three minutes later, so I just had it repainted the original color...good as new!

Back in the early 70's, when my dad's '67 Vette was fairly new, a mechanic spilled brake fluid on the top of the fender. Took the paint off. It was repainted, paint came off again. We did a frame-off resto on the car and took it down to bare fiberglass in that area (took the gel coat off and everything). The paint still comes off in that one spot to this day. It's maddening.

My GN has an alcohol injection system on it that is just a separate tank with a submerged fuel pump in it. It squirts Home Depot-variety denatured alcohol right into the intake. I use it when I can only put 94 octane in the car. It keeps the engine very, very clean inside. I was thinking of de-carboning the Northstar with it actually. Just hook it up to come on in small amounts at WOT. Over time you'd think it would clean things up.

Jim

dkozloski
05-10-05, 02:24 PM
Older brake fluid is a mixture of wood alcohol and castor oil. The wood alcohol strips the paint and the castor oil penetrates the fiberglass and deposits a very tough film that is as bad as to paint over as silicones if not worse.

BeelzeBob
05-10-05, 02:28 PM
On second thought....maybe you better not put the fuel line magnets on at the same time you are trying the acetone in the fuel....if the surface tension of the fuel molecules is reduced by the acetone AND they are aligned by the magnet the result could be a catostrophic explosion due to the huge energy release.


The fuel flows directly around the windings on the fuel pump armature and the injector coil windings. Things like acetone will eat the insulation off the wire windings and cause the fuel pump and injectors to short out and fail. not saying how fast with low concentrations but it will happen eventually.

Just be aware that it is almost impossible to run a real world fuel economy comparision on things that are KNOWN to change the fuel economy much less something like the acetone trick. There are WAY too many uncontrollable variables in real world fuel economy testing to pin anything down. So don't get your hopes up regardless of what the "results" show.

dkozloski
05-10-05, 02:39 PM
Years ago there used to be a multi-day, head-to-head competition for the best fuel milage between cars called the Mobil Economy Run. Every year all the makes were represented and competed over a common course that was run on rules very similar to a rally that required a minimum speed. A strange phenomonon was that it made a huge difference who the drivers were. It was obvious that the biggest variable was driver technique.

dkozloski
05-10-05, 03:19 PM
When Thomas Midgely and Charles Kettering first constructed a test engine with a quartz window in the combustion chamber one of the first things they noted was that as the engine was forced into detonation the light in the combustion chamber changed from a normal blue flame to a blinding white light. A multitude of fual additives were tried including analine dyes, all available base petroleum stocks, and the Lord knows what in the interest of controlling combustion. Eventually Thomas Midgely settled on tetraethyl lead, founded the Ethyl Corporation, and made one hell of a lot of money.

dkozloski
05-10-05, 03:22 PM
Pardon me for rambling, this stuff just keeps popping out of my head.

dkozloski
05-10-05, 03:36 PM
Back in the 1920's and 30's if a pilot was going to be flying to areas where the fuel was of an unknown quality he was forced to carry along TEL in gallon cans and add it as he thought it was required. This was a nasty business because TEL is highly poisoness and the cans liked to leak. You can tell by looking at the exhaust pretty well what happened to cause the crash with a detonating aircraft engine. First you can see the black plume as the carbon is scoured out, next the exhaust is white as metalic engine parts melt and burn, then the exhaust changes to blue smoke as the hole melts in the piston and the engine destructs.

eldorado1
05-10-05, 03:48 PM
Just be aware that it is almost impossible to run a real world fuel economy comparision on things that are KNOWN to change the fuel economy much less something like the acetone trick. There are WAY too many uncontrollable variables in real world fuel economy testing to pin anything down. So don't get your hopes up regardless of what the "results" show.

I'm trying to minimize the uncontrollable variables... The vehicle will be refuelled at the same gas pump/station, and make exactly the same 90 mile commute every day (95% highway driving will give consistant results). The driver of the vehicle will not know whether the tank has the acetone or not until after it's over... Just to make it fair, and not have any unconscious actions come into play.

It will be put into 2 cars, a caravan, and a grand am, (and maybe my northstar ponticaddy). This will be done for several tanks, to get a decent statistical average. Maximum concentration will be 3oz/10gal.

If any drastic changes occur, I'll check the gasoline to make sure they didn't switch over to summer blend without warning, although they *should* be on summer now.

eldorado1
05-10-05, 03:52 PM
I was wondering if burnt acetone will adversely affect the platinum, palladium, or rhodium in the catalytic converter. Also, if it act anyting like aclohol in gasoline does, it will only decrease fuel economy. You shoudl try putting Mothballs in your gas tank. They did that on mythbuster's and it worked pretty good.

The mothballs was to increase the octane rating though, not for better gas mileage.. IIRC it was the napthalene in them, but I don't remember.

Burnt acetone seems to just release CO, CO2 and water vapor...

powerglide
05-10-05, 05:55 PM
"
Roger Crawford, a businessman and independent researcher in Midland, Texas, takes a different approach to fuel economy. He has just begun marketing a gas additive he calls "XtraMPG." He says it boosts octane, burns cleaner and enables motorists to get better fuel economy and buy less expensive grades of gas -- saving 10 to 15 percent overall on gas.

What's in XtraMPG? "Most of us know it as nail polish remover," Crawford says. "It is simple acetone, a nonhazardous organic chemical ... rated at 150 octane.""


"xtrampg.com" appears to be down though, otherwise I'd post a link. ;)



.......I said "If it REALLY worked".......XtraMPG doesn't work and thats probably why the site is down....

JimHare
05-10-05, 09:52 PM
I don't have anything specific to add here, but I'd just like to say that reading all the posts by dkozloski and bbobnski has got to be one of the most entertaining, elucidating, and illuminating pastimes on the 'net. These are the kinds of guys you wish lived next door...long live 'em both.

danbuc
05-10-05, 10:11 PM
Yes, the mothballs were for an increase in octane. I just mentioned it, because I thought it might be a cool thing for you to try, along with the paint thinner. Maybe it will be just like putting CAM 2 in your car...hehe. :D

dkozloski
05-11-05, 03:41 AM
Just about any aromatic hydrocarbon will improve the octane rating of gasoline to varying degrees including napthalene, mothballs. Remember though that the oil companies are really in a bind to use as much of the barrel of oil as they can to make motor fuels. If there were no pitfalls to using napthalene to accomplish this they would use it by the boxcar load for that purpose. Since they don't it must be some baad s__t. The same goes for acetone. That thump you just heard was some petroleum engineer that just fell out of his chair laughing at you guys.

danbuc
05-11-05, 05:05 AM
What you also have to consider about substances such as Acetone, is that while they may increase the octane rating of the gasoline, they may not burn as efficiently. One really good example of this is Alcohol. Losts of fuels have alcohol mixed in, to help trap water, and to help the fuel burn cleaner. The alcohol also raises the octane level of the fuel as well. The major drawback to this though, is that alcohol burns much cooler, and much less efficiently than gasoline. This results in better emissions, but lower fuel economy since it requires more alcohol mixed fuel, to produce the same level of energy, as regular non-diluted gasoline does. Alcohol has an octane rating of roughly 130. One gallon of alcohol produces about half the BTU's that a gallon of gasoline does, thus requiring more to make the same power.

Judging by how alcohol, and other cooler burning/higher octane chemicals affect gasoline, and it's ability to burn efficiently, I have a good feeling that acetone will behave in a similar manner. While acetone may have a relatively high octane rating, it probably burns much cooler than gasoline does, just like alcohol. If this is the case, the only thing it can do, is decrease fuel economy. It's simple math here. If it takes one and a half gallons of a gasoline/acetone-or-alcohol mixture, to produce the same amount of energy that 1 gallon of gasoline does, your going to burn more fuel, while trying to attain the same level of performance. This basically means more fuel is used, to get the engine to make the same power it did, but while burning cleaner. That's about it.

Maxoom
05-11-05, 09:57 AM
JimHare - my sentiments exactly! I only discovered this forum a few months ago, but it's already become one of my favorite places on the 'net.

I tried to PM dkozloski to tell him how much I enjoy his posts, but I haven't been around here long enough to have earned that privilege. So here's to you DK (and of-course Bbob too).

Cheers!

eldorado1
05-11-05, 11:46 AM
What you also have to consider about substances such as Acetone, is that while they may increase the octane rating of the gasoline, they may not burn as efficiently. One really good example of this is Alcohol. Losts of fuels have alcohol mixed in, to help trap water, and to help the fuel burn cleaner. The alcohol also raises the octane level of the fuel as well. The major drawback to this though, is that alcohol burns much cooler, and much less efficiently than gasoline. This results in better emissions, but lower fuel economy since it requires more alcohol mixed fuel, to produce the same level of energy, as regular non-diluted gasoline does. Alcohol has an octane rating of roughly 130. One gallon of alcohol produces about half the BTU's that a gallon of gasoline does, thus requiring more to make the same power.

Judging by how alcohol, and other cooler burning/higher octane chemicals affect gasoline, and it's ability to burn efficiently, I have a good feeling that acetone will behave in a similar manner. While acetone may have a relatively high octane rating, it probably burns much cooler than gasoline does, just like alcohol. If this is the case, the only thing it can do, is decrease fuel economy. It's simple math here. If it takes one and a half gallons of a gasoline/acetone-or-alcohol mixture, to produce the same amount of energy that 1 gallon of gasoline does, your going to burn more fuel, while trying to attain the same level of performance. This basically means more fuel is used, to get the engine to make the same power it did, but while burning cleaner. That's about it.

Yes, but alcohol is used in concentrations of ~10%. (actually here they're trying to pass a measure to require a MINIMUM of 20% ethanol! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But that's a story for another time). In theory, 0.02% should not affect anything at all. I'll be honest - I'm not expecting anything to change. I think changing driving habits would have more of an effect on MPG than anything else, which is why I chose to do this little experiment blind, so unconscious changes in the driving habits wouldn't effect the fuel economy.

IF there are changes, then it would imply that it is definately affecting the burn characteristics, even in that low amount. I guess we'll see if this "gasoline soap" actually works. From what I have been reading, "B12", the additive that's been in use forever, has 30% acetone, and 40% toluene and a few others in it... People have been using it in EFI cars for years, with no complaints.

Also, I've noticed many people saying ethanol is worse (corrosive, low thermal energy, etc) than just about anything else you could put in your car... I hate the stuff. Now they're pushing higher quantities, which has me worried..

eldorado1
05-11-05, 11:57 AM
Just about any aromatic hydrocarbon will improve the octane rating of gasoline to varying degrees including napthalene, mothballs. Remember though that the oil companies are really in a bind to use as much of the barrel of oil as they can to make motor fuels. If there were no pitfalls to using napthalene to accomplish this they would use it by the boxcar load for that purpose. Since they don't it must be some baad s__t. The same goes for acetone. That thump you just heard was some petroleum engineer that just fell out of his chair laughing at you guys.

I heard no thump... :hmm:

Gasoline formulations are so heavily regulated, that I doubt they can change the formulations much... Volatility, octane, oxygen content, etc are regulated. I'm sure if it were up to them, they would have our engines run on crude.

danbuc
05-11-05, 12:33 PM
Now are you going to use .02% for every gallon, or .02% for all 16 gallons. .02% of one gallons is about .757 milliliters. .02% of 16 gallon is only 12.11 milliliters. That's very, very small amount of acetone. Even if it did somewhow affect the burn, such a small amount would probably never make much of a difference at all, one way or another.

dkozloski
05-11-05, 02:29 PM
eldorado1, in the absence of specific state regulations such as California, the composition of automotive gasoline is the result of a contract between the seller(refinery) and the buyer(bulk distributor). That is why the FAA has specific regulations regarding the type of auto fuel that can be legally used in small aircraft. Fuel formulated to those specs is not for sale in most states especially with someone certifying what's in it. The fact is that in most states there is no way to tell what you have been sold at the pumps. Wood alcohol is the corrosive variety and is specifically prohibited in some owners handbooks. Ethanol(white lightning) is fine, plus it has more heat value.(BTU/lb.)

eldorado1
05-11-05, 02:48 PM
eldorado1, in the absence of specific state regulations such as California, the composition of automotive gasoline is the result of a contract between the seller(refinery) and the buyer(bulk distributor). That is why the FAA has specific regulations regarding the type of auto fuel that can be legally used in small aircraft. Fuel formulated to those specs is not for sale in most states especially with someone certifying what's in it. The fact is that in most states there is no way to tell what you have been sold at the pumps. Wood alcohol is the corrosive variety and is specifically prohibited in some owners handbooks. Ethanol(white lightning) is fine, plus it has more heat value.(BTU/lb.)

What about federal regulations though?

As far as ethanol goes:
Ethanol: 76,000 Btu/gal
Gasoline: 114,000 Btu/gal

I don't know if ethanol is less dense than gasoline or not.

ShadowLvr400
05-11-05, 03:06 PM
If you want some fun, take some plastic parts, put them in a glass with some acetone. They'll go soft and pliable, start to break down. I can think of plenty of fuel system plastics that I dont want going soft. That's one reason you dont want to run too high on acetone. It might be fine once in a while if it gives more power, but be prepared for damage.

eldorado1
05-11-05, 03:15 PM
If you want some fun, take some plastic parts, put them in a glass with some acetone. They'll go soft and pliable, start to break down. I can think of plenty of fuel system plastics that I dont want going soft. That's one reason you dont want to run too high on acetone. It might be fine once in a while if it gives more power, but be prepared for damage.

Several people have already done this with 5 and 10% acetone solutions (250 to 500x the recommended concentration) using various rubber, butyl-n, viton(sp?), and fuel components. The regular rubber swelled a bit, but the others did nothing. PVC on the other hand (not used in automotive fuel components) did swell at both both levels, and became plasticine. It returned to normal when it was removed from the bath.

ShadowLvr400
05-11-05, 03:15 PM
Or is it rubbers? Damn, I forget...

dkozloski
05-11-05, 03:24 PM
eldorado1, federal regulations apply to aviation fuels. In the absence of specific state requirements, anything goes for auto fuel. Specific octane numbers are the result of a contract between buyer and seller. If you watch the trucks load out at the refinery, sometimes you see the additives favored by a particular bulk supplier being added as the truck is filled. i.e.,Chevron has Techron, Shell has Tom Cat Piss, there may be alcohol. There are regs for what can't be in the fuel such as lead, some other metallic additives, and soon to be more stringent rules on sulphur but if you want to put horse sweat in it that's up to you.

dkozloski
05-11-05, 03:32 PM
As I stated in an earlier post, some Ford execs were looking at jail time for faking some long term emission systems testing for the EPA. What they were doing was changing and adjusting parts that were required to last without such monkey business for a specific time. On a national TV financial show a Ford exec stated they had cured the problem the same way GM did by using Chevron gasoline for all emissions systems testing. The inferrence being that the parts in question didn't gum up over time.

eldorado1
05-11-05, 03:33 PM
eldorado1, federal regulations apply to aviation fuels. In the absence of specific state requirements, anything goes for auto fuel. Specific octane numbers are the result of a contract between buyer and seller. If you watch the trucks load out at the refinery, sometimes you see the additives favored by a particular bulk supplier being added as the truck is filled. i.e.,Chevron has Techron, Shell has Tom Cat Piss, there may be alcohol. There are regs for what can't be in the fuel such as lead, some other metallic additives, and soon to be more stringent rules on sulphur but if you want to put horse sweat in it that's up to you.

I'll have to try that Shell gas ;)

Taken from chevron's site:
"Lower quality gasolines, currently sold to an estimated 50% of the market, are usually formulated with less effective, less expensive additives (also using the minimum additive level legally required)" in re: gasoline detergents

I know there have to be some restrictions, otherwise the refineries would go willy-nilly, and we'd be seeing cars dying all over the place from vapor lock, etc.

read this:

"Reformulated gasoline" (RFG) is now required in many urban areas to reduce air pollution. RFG requires extra refining to remove aromatic chemicals, and uses higher amounts of "oxygenates" such as MTBE, ETBE or ethanol alcohol. This raises the cost of RFG 2-10 cents a gallon and reduces its energy content about 1-3%. But the EPA insists the benefits outweigh the tradeoffs.

There is some evidence to suggest that RFG doesn’t keep very well if allowed to sit in a vehicle’s fuel tank for long periods of time (say 8-10 days or more). According to one engine builder, the ingredients separate and absorb water, which can lean out the fuel mixture excessively and cause driveability problems. Vehicles that sit unused for long periods of time, therefore, can benefit from a dose of fuel stabilizer in the gas tank.

I love you ethanol! :crying:

BeelzeBob
05-11-05, 03:51 PM
As I stated in an earlier post, some Ford execs were looking at jail time for faking some long term emission systems testing for the EPA. What they were doing was changing and adjusting parts that were required to last without such monkey business for a specific time. On a national TV financial show a Ford exec stated they had cured the problem the same way GM did by using Chevron gasoline for all emissions systems testing. The inferrence being that the parts in question didn't gum up over time.


Somehow this seems fishy.....

All emission testing at the manufacturers and the EPA labs at Ann Arbor, including mileage accumulatin vehicles, is done with specific test fuel so that there is really no variability in deposit formation and such.... Not sure what the real story here was...no doubt that there was a "story"...but testing on a specific brand of fuel really does not sound realistic.

One of the problems with field compliance to emissions standards is the TREMENDOUS variability in automotive gasoline fuels. It is huge. Basically seems like anything the refineries want to get rid of they put in gasoline to be "burned"..... High sulfur levels, high levels of peroxides (which have NO place in gasoline), high silicone contamination, etc... have all been documented in pump gas in different states at different times. As well as the wide variety of alcohols added to fuel for cosolvents, "cutting" the fuel so as to save money, added as an oxidant for emission reasons, etc..... What you pump is far from closely regulated.

dkozloski
05-11-05, 05:26 PM
Bbob, from another source I heard a GM spokesperson bragging that they did all their emmissions system testing with gasoline supplied by Chevron. This may mean what is used in-house for developement. That is why I was not surprised when I heard the guy from Ford on Neil Cavuto mention Chevron by name. I also noticed that Chevron was the only member of the "Top Tier" program that you were likely to see selling products across the country until recently. It seems to me that for a long time the only partcipants in the "Top Tier Detergent Gasoline" program were Chevron and Quick Stop which I have never seen.

eldorado1
05-11-05, 05:48 PM
Wasn't there something on this board about high sulfur gasoline from a station ruining the fuel senders?

It's interesting to note what's in common "fuel treatments" sold OTC... A lot of them carry polyether amine, which as far as I know, is "Techron", or a large percentage of it. Almost all of them contain naptha, which is the same stuff you put in your Zippo...

http://householdproducts.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/household/brands?tbl=brands&id=5019

Check out the "STP fuel treatment". It has JP5 jet fuel in it! :bouncy:

dkozloski
05-11-05, 06:15 PM
JP-5 is a low flammability jet fuel developed for the military.

95Concours
05-11-05, 07:59 PM
On that note.. Are any over the counter fuel treatments/additives (i.e. STP, Lucus, Gumont etc.) good for your engine and or fuel system? I use STP Fuel Injector Cleaner every oil change (around 4k), I like the results, but if its going to eat away anything I'd rather not use it.

eldorado1
05-11-05, 09:28 PM
On that note.. Are any over the counter fuel treatments/additives (i.e. STP, Lucus, Gumont etc.) good for your engine and or fuel system? I use STP Fuel Injector Cleaner every oil change (around 4k), I like the results, but if its going to eat away anything I'd rather not use it.

Polyether amines seems to be tops in all the articles I've been reading... Whether it's a techron formulation or
http://householdproducts.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/household/brands?tbl=brands&id=16004034
or
http://householdproducts.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/household/brands?tbl=brands&id=16004083

etc.
Also, Texaco apparently has it in their gasoline, along with chevron.

eldorado1
05-11-05, 09:37 PM
Bbob, from another source I heard a GM spokesperson bragging that they did all their emmissions system testing with gasoline supplied by Chevron. This may mean what is used in-house for developement. That is why I was not surprised when I heard the guy from Ford on Neil Cavuto mention Chevron by name. I also noticed that Chevron was the only member of the "Top Tier" program that you were likely to see selling products across the country until recently. It seems to me that for a long time the only partcipants in the "Top Tier Detergent Gasoline" program were Chevron and Quick Stop which I have never seen.

"In fact, the "Big 3" automakers use Chevron gasolines with Techron® to help their engines pass the United States Environmental Protection Agency's (EPA) emission system durability test."

from http://www.chevron.ca/ProductsServices/Retail/Gasolines.htm

dkozloski
05-11-05, 10:19 PM
Chevron and Texaco are now Chevron-Texaco but a Chevron card still won't work at a Texaco station.

eldorado1
05-11-05, 10:25 PM
Chevron and Texaco are now Chevron-Texaco but a Chevron card still won't work at a Texaco station.

That's somewhat ironic, because Chevron sued Texaco for claiming their "Cleansystem3" was the best...

Both gasoline brands carry the same PEA additives.

dkozloski
05-11-05, 10:31 PM
Sounds like a tax scam to me. Chevron wins the suit and collects damages that are tax free. Texaco pays damages that are written off as an expense.

jackc
05-12-05, 06:43 PM
Chevron and Texaco are now Chevron-Texaco but a Chevron card still won't work at a Texaco station.

That's because Shell and Texaco aren't affiliated but you use Shell cards at Texaco stations.......http://cadillacforums.com/forums/images/smilies/16suspect1.gif ..

eldorado1
05-18-05, 10:24 PM
Update: Both vehicles showed no statistically significant deviation from their typical gas mileage. :hide:

ktills45
05-18-05, 11:19 PM
Update: Both vehicles showed no statistically significant deviation from their typical gas mileage. :hide:

Anything dissolve? :lildevil:

eldorado1
05-19-05, 02:50 PM
Anything dissolve? :lildevil:

Nope! :coolgleam

I asked if there was any noticeable difference in the idle or anything like that, and nada. I highly suspect that those that did put it in and got xx% increase was purely due to the subconscious change in driving habits.

dkozloski
05-19-05, 08:20 PM
Anybody putting that crap in their engine would have to be unconscious or maybe no conscience.

lry99eldo
05-19-05, 09:25 PM
Absolute BUNK! Take a teaspoon of gas and a teaspoon of acetone on a 100 deg.F day, in the sun and see which one disappears first. No concentartion calculations just straight up volitility. How in the world could anyone think that there would be any substantial gain in mileage and or performance. This test is acute to an ambient boil, and as the temp goes up in you engine and related parts that acetone is not even reaching anywhere near you combustion chamber. If you put enough in you'll wind up with a charcoal sludge in your return vapors system is about it. Really people! And you'd better go get a Turbonator to go with it, you'll visit the gas station maybe once a year if they are lucky! Now that I think about it, I'm sure that it also probably cleans the left intake valve in the northern hemisphere and the right intake valve in the southern hemisphere. 35 Bull Elk reported 70% mileage gain and 57 Kangaroo's reported 35% mileage gain, got be true then! OMG, I'm laughing so hard about this I'll never get to drive again, that's how it's gonna save me money!

EldoLak
06-05-05, 05:58 PM
Hey! I drilled holes in my carburetor cover and put marbles in it on my camaro once, I didn't get any better gas mileage, but it sounded cool. Maybe you can try that.

davesdeville
06-06-05, 02:30 AM
Hey! I brought up a dead thread for no good reason. Aren't I cool.

N0DIH
06-24-05, 06:24 PM
I am curious, what requirements do the gasoline companies have to the EPA and the car manufacturers? If they are regulated, by who?

If they "play" with the formulation, what, if any, proof that they don't change the emissions output of a car, do they have to the car manufacturers and the EPA?

I am coming from a QS9000/TS16949 perspective, what is allowed, what isn't? Who is going to prove it is ok or not ok.

What responsibility is the driver of the car on what goes in the tank?

If say Chevron or Mobil or etc, decided to put in 10% some additive that started eating the fuel lines on the cars, and increasing emissions, who would hold them accountable? And the first thing is customers would be running to the dealer claiming warranty and the car manufacturer would be initially fixing, but soon later (FAI) finding out that it isn't them. Then what?


I heard no thump... :hmm:

Gasoline formulations are so heavily regulated, that I doubt they can change the formulations much... Volatility, octane, oxygen content, etc are regulated. I'm sure if it were up to them, they would have our engines run on crude.

eldorado1
06-24-05, 06:46 PM
I am curious, what requirements do the gasoline companies have to the EPA and the car manufacturers? If they are regulated, by who?


Some reading material:

http://cadillacforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13887

http://ecm.ncms.org/ERI/new/IRRpetref.htm

JohnnyO
06-24-05, 10:04 PM
You're going to need the "Platinum Gas Saver" and the "Electronic Supercharger" as well.
I have both and my Sport Trac runs 11's in the 1/4 mile AND gets 40 mpg. :coolgleam

Actually if you look at some of the eBay "Electric Superchargers", then go to www.westmarine.com and look up bilge exhaust fans, you'll see it's the same thing. :histeric:

lry99eldo
06-24-05, 10:42 PM
N0DIH, what has QS9000 got to do with it? That's a Quality Management Systems standard and what a company does with their formulas is their business. I don't see that being a registered company with QS or ISO will mandate discloser of anything other that a companies operating procedures. The changing of any formula that the EPA would be interested in would be between them and I'm quite sure "we" are not to be included in that loop.
lry99eldo

ELDORACER
11-17-05, 01:04 AM
I use acetone in my northstar it is great no problems at all it runs a lot smoother and i went from 19mpg to 20.5mpg city driving this also helps with carbon deposits because fuel is more efficiantly burned. acetones octane is 150+ and it burns cleaner then fuel, its flash point is half of what gasoline is. this will not hurt anything in your engine, ethanol hurts this stuff a lot worse. it also helps with power i add 3oz per 10 gallons to 89 octane gas i love it. if you dont believe me look up the properties of both gas and acetone and compare. i put a lot of reaseach into this and i decided it is legitimate and cheap to use.

peteski
11-17-05, 01:28 AM
Good for you. But don't come cryin' here when your injector and fuel pump winding insulation dissolves from prolonged contact with acetone.

I've also heard that you can drink denatured alcohol if you strain it through a piece of bread. Cheap booze!

Have a blast! :D

Peteski

auroradude
11-17-05, 01:52 AM
http://singingmountain.org/smells-like-bullshit.jpg

ELDORACER
11-17-05, 02:02 AM
the acetone is in such minute quantities that it is hardley even recognized, fuel if you havent noticed is also corrosive in nature not to mention the additives they add to it, now do the math it is less then .1% that is 1/1000particles, it has been proven that in conentrations of 15% ,3/20 particles, it has not damaged any parts. not to mention if you look at the owners manuel of a toyato prius in order to get the stated gas milage you need to add a certain amount of acetone to your gas.

mcowden
11-17-05, 11:24 AM
i put a lot of reaseach into this and i decided it is legitimate and cheap to use.

Exactly what research did you do and where can I find the same information?

ELDORACER
11-18-05, 12:54 AM
its easy i did a seach on yahoo saw the benefits as stated. i didnt trust that so then i went to the encyclopedia if you look up acetone and gasoline and compare both of these elements you will see that acetone is not much more corrosive then regular gas and also it has a higher octane it even has a lower flashpoint. then if you look at the other junk the fuel companies dump in your gas you will not ever want to use ethanol or anything less then 100% gasoline due to the additives corrosive nature, low octane and high flashpoint this does not help your gas milage

Ranger
11-18-05, 01:31 AM
In some areas (where I live for example) you cannot get anything other than 10% ethanol. I have never had a fuel related problem that I can blame on ethanol. If it were so detrimental milliions of cars would be breaking down and it would be off the market. No arguement that it will reduece fuel milage a bit. I have done no research but I would never put acetone in my fuel tank. If it were beneficial, the oil companies would put it in there already as they could claim much better fuel milage and that would be a great marketing tool and give them a big advantage over other comapnies. I just don't buy it.

N0DIH
11-18-05, 02:28 AM
I did some fuel economy testing in my LT1 Fleetwood with Acetone. Nothing, nada, not a hint whatsoever of any improved fuel economy in any quantfyable #'s. Pure gas gets best, 10% Ethanol gets 5-8% less consistently.

Check out my thread on it in the RWD forum.

mcowden
11-18-05, 12:19 PM
I did some fuel economy testing in my LT1 Fleetwood with Acetone. Nothing, nada, not a hint whatsoever of any improved fuel economy in any quantfyable #'s. Pure gas gets best, 10% Ethanol gets 5-8% less consistently.

Check out my thread on it in the RWD forum.

For the sake of clarity, there is no such thing as "100% pure gasoline." It's like oil. There are additives in all gasoline, as mandated by law. The percentages and exact contents vary by manufacturer, grade, and season, but at no time do they sell 100% pure gasoline. It is all a blend, whether it's alcohol or detergents or MTBE or vapor point depressants or octane boosters or all of the above and then some, it always has other stuff in it. I'm with Ranger on the idea that if acetone worked at all, it would be in our gas already. There's no way they would let such a simple solution go unvisited. There has to be some major reason why it's not in there, and my guess is that it damages fuel system components to some degree and the effects are cumulative over time and that it doesn't really serve much purpose anyway. The internet is not the place to do research like this. If it was such good stuff, it would already be in there.

dkozloski
11-18-05, 03:22 PM
Tetraethyl lead was such an efficient way to increase octane rating that the money saved with its use more than paid for the environmental damage done compared to the cost of stuff they are putting in gasoline now. When the use of lead was banned the pressure was really on the oil companies to develope something that worked as well and the public could afford. If any common or semi-exotic additive would do a cost effective and non damaging job it would be in the formulation. Believe me, everything imaginable has been tried. Sometimes with amusing results. When Low Lead aviation fuel was first released for use it didn't take long for reports of missing fuel system components that were dissolving and simply disappearing. The one I remember was vent systen check valves failing that allowed the cross-flow of fuel when the aircraft was parked on a slope. When some old time engineers were consulted the answer was, "We tried that stuff back in WWll and it did the same thing then". Maybe Mythbusters will take a look at this one.

eldorado1
11-18-05, 03:50 PM
I don't see what lead/octane have to do with fuel economy, but okay...

The oil companies are in business for one thing - profits. They want to sell more of their gas, for as much money as they can. That's why ethanol is so great! Its high octane means they can cut back on other more expensive components, it's cheap, and when you use it, you get lower fuel economy, which means you'll be back more often! Brilliant!!

As for whether acetone works or not, it would appear that it doesn't. I suggest anyone that wants to give it a try, to do it blind - i.e. put it in your significant other's car, and don't tell her/him :D

make sure you get mileage and gas receipts. Like I said, I tried this in 2 different cars, with no benefit or loss.

mcowden
11-18-05, 03:56 PM
Tetraethyl lead was such an efficient way to increase octane rating that the money saved with its use more than paid for the environmental damage done compared to the cost of stuff they are putting in gasoline now. When the use of lead was banned the pressure was really on the oil companies to develope something that worked as well and the public could afford. If any common or semi-exotic additive would do a cost effective and non damaging job it would be in the formulation. Believe me, everything imaginable has been tried. Sometimes with amusing results. When Low Lead aviation fuel was first released for use it didn't take long for reports of missing fuel system components that were dissolving and simply disappearing. The one I remember was vent systen check valves failing that allowed the cross-flow of fuel when the aircraft was parked on a slope. When some old time engineers were consulted the answer was, "We tried that stuff back in WWll and it did the same thing then". Maybe Mythbusters will take a look at this one.

The idea has already been submitted to Mythbusters. I just checked at www.discovery.com/mythbusters and then went to the message boards. We'll see if they actually test it. I don't believe their science is always as accurate as it should be, but in the case of this one, I don't think they can really dramatize it much. Pretty simple test. I recently saw the one they did testing whether mileage was better in a pickup truck with the tailgate up or down, and the mileage was unmistakeably better with the tailgate UP, despite what you might think, because of the truck's engineered aerodynamics. They could do the same or a very similar test with acetone in the gas and prove or disprove it. My money is on no difference in mileage, but I don't know how they could show damage to the fuel system in a 1/2 hour show...

ELDORACER
11-19-05, 03:46 PM
first off why would the oil companies put somthing cheap in the gas to keep you away for longer as stated before toyota prius recomends it and it has not shown damage in concentrations of 15% or more end of story it burns cleaner it is better for powr engine and also economy no questions asked

peteski
11-21-05, 02:53 AM
:lies:
You should do some better research. Here is a quote from a Prius owner I know whether Prius Owners manual recommends adding acetone to gasoline:

----------------------------------------------------
No, it only stipulates 87 octane which a lot of owners questioned since the engine does have a 14 to 1 compression ratio. The the engine is no way comparable with a standard internal combustion engine though and does use variable valve timing. It could not be fashioned to run in a standard car.
People in the midwest seem to like changing their fuel formulas and I've learned a lot on the net in the Prius owners on line seeking better milage figures. Minnesota and several other northern states insist on ethanol mixtures in their gas and it decreases milage by better than 5% so a lot of owners try to get to neighboring states without that requirement for fill-ups. I have read of some using acetone but they have been critisized for doing so.
-----------------------------------------------------

Peteski

lry99eldo
11-21-05, 09:02 AM
I'm amazed this thread is still active. No car manufacture recommends the use of acetone, naptha, benzine, methanol, alcohol, or any other such additive to be placed into the fuel tank by the owner. What the EPA mandates as well as States during seasonal changes is bad enough to the car manufactures let alone having owners dump who knows what into the fuel.
The best way to get better mileage, especially in Cadillacs, is to contain the activity of your right foot, not add mythical fluids. These things we love to drive are luxury HIGH PERFORMANCE tanks, not Toyota Prius's. First rule of engineering: You don't get something for nothing.
And I love the Myth Busters angle too, those two Hollywood stunt set builders have alot of fun entertaining us once a week for thirty minutes. Oh, you mean they're not MIT petrochemical engineers with a minor in mechanical engineering as well as SAE standards engineers? Ooooops, my mistake.
lry99eldo

mcowden
11-21-05, 10:39 AM
If you search Google for "acetone gas mileage," you'll get about 63,000 hits, and it seems like most of the first ones go to sites that say you will get better gas mileage by using a 1-3 oz. per 10 gallons of gasoline dosage of acetone. I still don't believe it, and I will not put acetone in my gas tank based on Internet testimonials.

First of all, the claim is that acetone reduces the surface tension of gasoline so that it atomizes better and therefore burns more cleanly. I don't buy that for two reasons: For one, the engineers who designed the fuel injectors had to take surface tension into account while they were designing the injector's spray pattern and the fuel system pressure. Secondly, if the burn wasn't clean, there would be a concentration of hydrocarbons in the exhaust. Last time I had an emissions test, the hydrocarbon level was extremely low, almost zero. That tells me that the burn is already nearly perfect and that any benefit it might provide in this arena is very slim and certainly not enough to produce the 10-30% fuel mileage gains claimed.

If acetone could do such wonders, auto makers would tell you to use it. They are under pressure to achieve certain fuel mileage figures, and they spend tens of millions of dollars on research and development to engineer systems that will save fuel. If they could get a 10-30% increase by telling you to add acetone to your gasoline, they would do it without blinking an eye. But as far as I can tell by doing my own research on car company web sites, not a single one of them tells you to put acetone in your gas. None. Not the Toyota Prius or the Honda Civic hybrid or the Honda Insight or the Ford Escape hybrid or the Hummers. Nobody says to put acetone in your gas except a bunch of people on the Internet who are doing very unscientific research and experimentation.

As far as acetone causing damage, my guess is that if there are some nominal fuel mileage increases, it could be because acetone causes faulty O2 sensor readings and that results in a higher fuel trim rate than usual. If that's the case and cars are running lean because of acetone, there certainly could be engine damage, but it wouldn't be shown by soaking fuel system parts in acetone. Lean running means higher temperatures. You do the math.

I will be glad to take some readings with my AutoTap with and without using acetone. Those readings will show definitively whether or not it helps anything, and driving style can't influence the sensor readings like it does influence gas mileage figures. I just need someone to tell me which parameters I should log to prove it one way or another. eldorado1, do you know what I should capture? O2 sensor plus fuel trim rates? I can send someone a full list of the available parameters if needed, but that can't happen until next week because my laptop is locked in my desk at work and I'm working from home this week.

So I am labeling this phenomenon very unlikely to work as claimed. It doesn't make any sense that such a simple solution could yield such great results. I will test it in a scientific manner and post the real answers. If the results show that acetone works, I'll put it in my gas tank too. Until then, I wouldn't recommend it to anybody.

eldorado1
11-21-05, 11:14 AM
As far as acetone causing damage, my guess is that if there are some nominal fuel mileage increases, it could be because acetone causes faulty O2 sensor readings and that results in a higher fuel trim rate than usual. If that's the case and cars are running lean because of acetone, there certainly could be engine damage, but it wouldn't be shown by soaking fuel system parts in acetone. Lean running means higher temperatures. You do the math.

I will be glad to take some readings with my AutoTap with and without using acetone. Those readings will show definitively whether or not it helps anything, and driving style can't influence the sensor readings like it does influence gas mileage figures. I just need someone to tell me which parameters I should log to prove it one way or another. eldorado1, do you know what I should capture? O2 sensor plus fuel trim rates? I can send someone a full list of the available parameters if needed, but that can't happen until next because my laptop is locked in my desk at work and I'm working from home this week.

I thought I already proved that it didn't work? :p

If you insist, you can fill it up normally, drive it around normally, and at the end of the week before you fill it up, drive it around while logging the BLM or long term fuel trim cells (don't know what autotap calls it). I believe you should see 16 different cells for different load conditions. Then fill it up, drive it a week, and do the same with the acetone.

lry99eldo
11-21-05, 12:52 PM
mcowden, best answer yet and really gets to the majority of mechanical circumstances surrounding the use of acetone. Your answer should put this thread to rest and it definitly does for me. When I see it anymore I'll just grit my teeth and pass it over.
lry99eldo

JimHare
11-23-05, 05:38 PM
And I love the Myth Busters angle too, those two Hollywood stunt set builders have alot of fun entertaining us once a week for thirty minutes.


How come you guys are turning off Mythbusters half way through the show? Where I watch, it's an hour long (Wed Evening from 9 to 10...)

:thumbsup:

gdgrosse
11-26-05, 02:20 AM
Why are people uncertain about their cars's performance with acetone? Why they are concerned with if it is okay to view their car's codes while they are driving?

There is a very simple reason I have had to review the code listings while driving. It is because the engineers who designed the system did not consider that mechanics or extremely savvy users would want to view these items in a time timely organized manner. The reason I perform this activity while driving is because it takes so long to do while sitting in my garage. Should I have no alternative but read these seemingly endless list of codes on my boring 20 minute drive to work and perhaps risk dying while doing so?

For instance, should we have to view ALL 150 of the historic codes everytime we scan? Should there not be an option to turn off viewing historic codes for each segment of the system (DDM, ECU, whatever other acryonym, etc)...?

The systems have simply been designed to the best of an engineer's ability to understand how they themselves would want to analyze the specific part of the sytem they designed with the least amount of effort required of themselves to implement such a disagnostic system.

Now, given this information--There will never be a perfectly maintainable, documented and self-sufficient electronic system for one reason--The disconnection between engineers/programmers, their managers and the maintenence personnel/savvy end-users.

If you want to work on a car you have no choice today. You have to be rich. You have to be smart. And you have to quit your job. You must design and build your own ECU, fuel injectors, sensors, etc. and hook it up to a very simple engine block. You have to build your own diagnostic system. In about a year with about a 1 or 2 million dollar budget, let me know what you've accomplished. I'd be happy to buy the first "production" unit you make from your visionary prototype for about $50k provided it comes with that exceptional documentation you always wanted out of a production car's maintenence manual: Pinouts for the ECU, exactly operation of the logic within the ECU and the circuit diagram to build your own computer to toss on your dash to manipulate fuel/air curves in realtime, etc.

Now, after you get about a month into this task with your unlimitted budget, you let us all know how great your car is and how you can view all of your "codes" on one laptop screen that is mounted in your dash, click on them just like in a webpage and cure all your ailments (adjust fuel curves, realize you need to replace a fuel filter or fuel pump due to decreased fuel pressure, replace a cat or cat-back system due to increased exhuast back-pressure, etc).

If we had the information on all of an automobile's failure points at our disposal, any boy or girl could get in their car and say, I have to get my fuel pump replaced because I'm low on fuel pressure. They would not have to take their car to 4 different mechanics until they fould one that was 80+ years old that knew he had to ignore all the diagnostic systems of today and hook up a fuel pressure gauge to the car and drive it around the block to figure out the problem is simply the fuel pump. How many of your family or friends have you heard say they had to replace their fuel pump last week? Probably none, because noone even knows what a FUEL PUMP IS these days.

This is why cars or other electronics (computers) never work the way a technically savvy user wants them to.

mcowden
11-26-05, 03:35 AM
Wow, quite a rant there gdgrosse. Perhaps you've just had a bad week or too much booze. Maybe it was the poor performance of the Dallas Cowboys as you suggested. I dunno, but I hope you view the rest of your life in a better light than you do automotive engineering. Maybe it's time for a career change? I'm not an automotive engineer, so I don't know how horrible your job is.

Anyway, you don't have to view all the History codes. You can clear them very easily. What idiot designed the system, you ask? An automotive engineer. If you need to know how to clear them, just use the Search feature above. You can do it without any special tools on a Cadillac. Not so for most other cars.

If engineers designed sensors and diagnostics for every possible system, the car would cost so much that very few people could afford it. Apparently you haven't noticed, but a car is a complex piece of machinery. You can't boil that kind of complexity down to such extremely simple diagnostics without vastly increasing the costs. How much would all those additional sensors cost? How much would it cost to replace the sensors? How would you know when the sensors went bad? How much computer processing power and programming engineering would it take to monitor all those sensors and make all the necessary calculations on a continuous basis, and then present it in a nice web page format as you suggested? And for all that extra complexity and costs, what percentage of the auto-buying public do you suppose even cares about it when they can just pay a couple hundred bucks and have a technician do the diagnostics and tell them what's wrong?

Let's sum up the feelings between engineers and end-users in a little humorous anecdote: An average guy decided to quit his job and go around the world in a hot air balloon. He got the thing up in the air and started on his journey. After a few days, he wanted to descend far enough to ask someone on the ground where he was. When he got close, he was near an automotive engineering firm. As a man walked out of the building, he shouted to him, "Excuse me, sir, will you kindly tell me where I am right now?" The engineer replied, "Certainly. You are approximately 50 feet above the earth in a hot air balloon." Indignant, the man replied, "You must be an automotive engineer." The engineer, taken aback, retorted, "Why would you say that?" "Because your answer was technically correct, but completely useless," answered the man. "Oh, I see. Then you must be a typical car owner," said the engineer. "Why do you say that," asked the man. The engineer answered, "Because you don't know where you are or what you're doing there, but now you think that's my fault."

For all your complaining about lack of documentation, you never once mentioned a factory service manual. Ever heard of one? Maybe the "leading vehicle manufacturer" you work for doesn't make them, but most of them do. It has all that documentation you apparently need so desperately, and it was written by all those engineers and managers you don't seem to like. If you need one for your 2000 Cadillac, you can get one at http://www.helminc.com or http://www.ebay.com.

There is always room for improvement, but you can't expect a gigantic industry to change overnight, and you also can't tell me that there haven't been tremendous positive changes happening on a continuous basis. You neglected to mention your solution that keeps costs reasonable while providing all the stuff you're demanding. Good luck with that.

Patrick7997
11-26-05, 10:01 AM
Those were interesting rants....

I was going to say, after working in a paint factory for 7 years and playing around with all kinds of solvents, I wouldn't go anywhere near one of my cars with Acetone. Acetone dissolves a lot of things.....plastic, rubber, pvc, etc...

Toluol causes lots of rubber & plastic parts to SWELL. They may or may not return to normal. Toluol also has the wonderful benefit of soaking directly into your skin and attacking your vital organs. In your body, not your car. You think working on your car is a pain? It's REALLY a pain to have your organs replaced.....

I have it on good authority that the ingredient that makes the Chevron Fuel INjector Cleaner with Techron work so good is Naptha. Naptha is a much milder solvent. Naptha probably does a nice job cleaning things out. I have used that, and it works. As was earlier in this amazing thread... Naptha is what is in a Zippo lighter. You can save a lot of money and just buy a can of Naptha, instead of that Zippo or Ronson lighter fluid. Exact same thing.

Also, if you re-grip your golf clubs yourself, you pay a ton from Golfsmith or Dynacraft for the grip solvent. That again is Naptha, nothing else. Save a ton of money, buy a can of Naptha.

However, the idea of getting any measurable gain in fuel economy...I am skeptical. :hmm:

The problem here is, we're all comparing apples to oranges. Gas is not federally regulated. AVgas, Aviation Fuel, is regulated. Ranger is south of me in Woodstock, so I'm not sure what his situation is, but here in Pewaukee Wisconsin, in the Milwaukee area, we have reformulated gas, which is 10% ethanol, or MTBE's. The MTBE's are well documented to be very hard on GM fuel injectors. Try to stay with Ethanol. Lots of us spend a lot of time driving to outlying counties to buy "real" gasoline.... Also, Ethanol will definitely hurt your fuel economy... minus 5% to 7%.

I personally think some of these fuel economy questions are confused by the fact that #1, gasoline really varies around the country, and #2, the 300hp variants (STS and ETC) will not get as good of mileage as the 270hp cars...

Ranger says he got 30+ on the highway in his new SLS, and I believe that to be true.... however, just asking people that I see in parking lots, parts stores, wherever... The 24 I get in my ETC is close to all I'm going to get. I'm turning an extra 500 RPM's at 75 miles per hour... that has to have a negative effect. A friend of mine in Roscoe IL is getting 21 or 22 on mostly highway in a 2001 STS...

So, Illinois may or may not have better gas, driving habits can vary, and we're comparing 2 gear ratios to each other.... I myself was concerned initially after reading posts of 29-30 mpg, and I wondered "what's wrong with my car? Did I get ripped off? Is there something wrong with this ride?"

No. After my admittedly informal but rather exhaustive survey of what people are getting for mileage, I have concluded that there's nothing wrong with my car, and that's all the mileage I'm going to get. It runs fantastic. I have none of the problems that are routinely discussed here.

So look, if you're not getting 30mpg people, resist the urge to start pouring Acetone in your tank. Where you drive, how you drive, what you're driving, and what kinda gas they're selling you has a lot more to do with it than adding Acetone or anything else to your tank!

Rest easy, drive the car, and enjoy it!!!:rolleyes:

ewill3rd
11-26-05, 10:12 AM
Here is a copy of a bulletin just relased by GM.
There are some good FACTS in this bulletin. There are also a couple of pointers to websites to gather REAL information. One guy testing it in his car is not enough data to make a theory out of guys, it takes real research.

MPG costs carmakers BILLIONS Of dollars in payments to the EPA, do some research on something called "CAFE" or Corporate Average Fuel Economy.
It's in the carmaker's best interests to make sure their vehicles squeeze every mile they can out of a tank of gas. I don't really understand why a person would think that in this day and age carmakers are conspiring to make cars use more gas than they need to. Heck half the posts on this forum seem to be about how to make your car use even more gas?! That being said, I don't want to participate in this argument, I just thought I would drop by and add some FACTS to this discussion instead of conjecture.
Don't mean to offend anyone here, just expressing my personal views on the topic.


WHAT NOT TO DO: Engine and Fuel Additives, Alternate Fuels, and "Miracle" Products
Various unproven products to improve vehicle fuel economy have been reported ranging from magnets that align molecules to chemical combustion improvers.

Most products claiming to provide benefits are based on unsubstantiated claims. Those that do present "scientific" results generally either have too little supporting data to be conclusive, have not conducted experiments in a controlled fashion, or cannot be substantiated by anyone else but the product's manufacturer.

The U.S. Federal Trade Commission summarizes results for products tested by the federal government at www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/autos/gasave.htm. A review of the list shows that the majority did not work, and for those that showed some effect, the benefit was too small to be cost effective.


Harmful Ideas That May Damage Your Vehicle and Increase Emissions
One more recent poor idea to improve fuel economy that should not be attempted is to blend either kerosene or diesel fuel into gasoline. Why? Both kerosene and diesel fuel are distillate fuels meant for use in compression ignition engines, not spark ignition engines. They have very low octane and since they are heavier (higher density) than gasoline, they will cause heavy engine deposits and degradation of engine oil.

Notice: Never put Kerosene or Diesel Fuel in your Gasoline Engine vehicle. This may result in inconsistent performance and permanent damage to your vehicle that is not covered by your New Vehicle Warranty.

Chemicals that are normally used as solvents also should not be used. These include acetone, ketones, and methanol. These solvents can be incompatible with your vehicles rubber or sealing components, and may dissolve the vehicle’s paint finish. In the case of methanol, corrosion of metal parts in the fuel system also may occur.

Notice: Never use acetone, ketones, or methanol additives in your vehicle. Some of these solvents may damage or corrode your fuel system. They are also very damaging to the painted surfaces of the vehicle if spilled.

WHAT TO DO: Maximizing Fuel Economy/Minimizing Costs
The best fuel economy possible is the direct result of proper maintenance and good driving habits. Listed below are GM's recommendations to achieve the best mileage possible. The first group are things to consider for your vehicle, while the second are tips relating to your driving habits.


Vehicle Considerations:


• Tire Pressure - One of the major contributors to poor fuel economy are under inflated tires. Tires low on pressure create drag that the vehicle’s powertrain must overcome, wasting dollars in fuel. Always keep your tires inflated to the proper pressure as shown on the vehicle placard. This not only serves to increase gas mileage but cuts down on tire wear, further decreasing your costs per mile.

• Air Filter - A vehicle that has a dirty air filter can’t efficiently draw air into the engine. This restriction forces the engine to expend energy to "breathe" wasting fuel in the process. Change recommendations are found in your vehicle Owner’s Manual.

• Proper Viscosity "Starburst" Rated Oil - Always use the proper viscosity oil in your engine. Oil that has a higher than required viscosity will create more drag on the internal components of the engine, causing more work for it, especially when cold. Each Owner’s Manual contains information on the proper type of oil for your vehicle. Look for the "starburst" symbol on the front of the bottle, and the SM rating on the API circle on the back label. If you are in doubt, stop by your dealer for an oil change, and any other services required. Most current GM vehicles are equipped with oil life monitors to further assist on the "when" to change your oil. (Aveo/Wave/Optra/Epica currently do not have oil life monitors).
Notice: GM Vehicles DO NOT require additional engine oil additives. Some additives may cause harmful effects to the internal seals and additionally void the terms of your vehicles New Car Warranty.


• Top Tier Fuels - Some fuel manufacturers provide gasoline advertised asTOP TIER DETERGENT GASOLINE (Chevron, Conoco, Phillips 66, Shell, Entec Stations, MFA , 76, Somerset Oil, QuikTrip, and Kwik Trip in the U.S. and Chevron in Canada. These fuels are preferable when and where available. They help to keep your fuel injectors and intake valves free of deposits. Clean engines provide optimal fuel economy, performance and reduced emissions. When Top Tier fuels are not available, consider a bottle of GM Fuel System treatment PLUS, P/N# 88861011 (in Canada, #88861012), at oil change time which will remove intake system and injector deposits. GM does not recommend any other fuel system cleaner.
Important: DO NOT confuse Top Tier Fuels with Higher Octane (Plus/Premium Grade Fuel) commonly sold at most all gas stations. Plus and Premium fuels are required in some high performance GM vehicles. However, they do not necessarily represent higher detergency present in TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline.


Important: For additional information regarding Top Tier fuels and availability, please refer to Corporate Bulletin Number 04-06-04-047E for U.S. or 05-06-04-022 for Canada.


Notice: E85 FUELS: Only vehicles designated for use with E85 should use E85 blended fuel. E85 compatibility is designated for vehicles that are certified to run on up to 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline. All other gasoline engines are designed to run on fuel that contains no more than 10% ethanol. Use of fuel containing greater than 10% ethanol in non-E85 designated vehicles can cause driveability issues, service engine soon indicators as well as increased fuel system corrosion. See Corporate Bulletin Number 05-06-04-035 for additional information.


• Use the Recommended Grade (Octane) Fuel Purchasing higher than required octane fuel is a waste of money. Using higher octane fuels in a vehicle that only required regular unleaded fuel will neither increase performance nor improve gas mileage. In all cases refer to your owners manual and ONLY use the octane rated fuel recommended for your vehicle.
Important: In high performance GM vehicles that DO require Premium (91 octane or higher) fuel, you MUST use fuels of at least this octane. Use of lower octane fuel may result in reduced performance, knocking, and/or permanent engine damage not covered under the terms of the New Vehicle Warranty.



• Check Engine/Service Engine Soon Light - Is the Check Engine/SES light on? When this light is on, the vehicles On-Board diagnostics computer has noticed that something is wrong. GM vehicles have many sensors that the computer uses to both control and sense actual fuel usage. When the computer lights the Check Engine/SES light it has lost some ability to run efficiently. This may result in increased fuel consumption, increased emissions, and/or driveability concerns.

• Spark Plugs - Even though current GM vehicles have 160,000 km (100,000 mi) service intervals for spark plugs if your vehicle is at that point in it's life, have the spark plugs changed to assure proper running and continued efficient, trouble free operation.


Changes In Driving Habits:


• Slow Down, Drive Smoothly - Avoid quick/full throttle acceleration from a standstill in town and high cruising speeds on the interstates. While the optimum MPG for highway cruising speed varies from vehicle to vehicle, faster is almost always worse. If your vehicle is equipped with a Driver Information Center that displays Instant Fuel Economy, select that read out and vary your cruising speed while on the highway. The display will change continuously with uphill and downhill sections but you should quickly be able to identify on level ground the speed range that your vehicle does the best in.

• Empty Your Trunk - Avoid leaving unnecessary items in your trunk. It takes power to move increased weight and that means more gasoline consumption and reduced performance. While the change may be slight, multiplied by thousands of miles, it all adds up.

• Avoid Extended Idling - There is no need to idle your engine till it reaches operating temperature. Idling wastes fuel.

• Combine Trips - Your vehicle uses much more fuel when the engine is cold. This is especially true in the winter months when the engine will take the longest to warm up. Combine errands or trips so that the vehicle only needs to warm up once to encompass many different stops.

eldorado1
11-26-05, 11:00 AM
Important: In high performance GM vehicles that DO require Premium (91 octane or higher) fuel, you MUST use fuels of at least this octane. Use of lower octane fuel may result in reduced performance, knocking, and/or permanent engine damage not covered under the terms of the New Vehicle Warranty.

I guess I should post that in the octane thread... heh heh heh... :devil:

Ranger
11-26-05, 12:23 PM
Ranger is south of me in Woodstock, so I'm not sure what his situation is, but here in Pewaukee Wisconsin, in the Milwaukee area, we have reformulated gas, which is 10% ethanol, or MTBE's. The MTBE's are well documented to be very hard on GM fuel injectors. Try to stay with Ethanol. Lots of us spend a lot of time driving to outlying counties to buy "real" gasoline.... Also, Ethanol will definitely hurt your fuel economy... minus 5% to 7%.

I personally think some of these fuel economy questions are confused by the fact that #1, gasoline really varies around the country, and #2, the 300hp variants (STS and ETC) will not get as good of mileage as the 270hp cars...

Ranger says he got 30+ on the highway in his new SLS, and I believe that to be true.... however, just asking people that I see in parking lots, parts stores, wherever... The 24 I get in my ETC is close to all I'm going to get. I'm turning an extra 500 RPM's at 75 miles per hour... that has to have a negative effect. A friend of mine in Roscoe IL is getting 21 or 22 on mostly highway in a 2001 STS...

So, Illinois may or may not have better gas, driving habits can vary, and we're comparing 2 gear ratios to each other.... I myself was concerned initially after reading posts of 29-30 mpg, and I wondered "what's wrong with my car? Did I get ripped off? Is there something wrong with this ride?"

No. After my admittedly informal but rather exhaustive survey of what people are getting for mileage, I have concluded that there's nothing wrong with my car, and that's all the mileage I'm going to get. It runs fantastic. I have none of the problems that are routinely discussed here.

So look, if you're not getting 30mpg people, resist the urge to start pouring Acetone in your tank. Where you drive, how you drive, what you're driving, and what kinda gas they're selling you has a lot more to do with it than adding Acetone or anything else to your tank!

Rest easy, drive the car, and enjoy it!!!:rolleyes:

Patrick,
Down here we (like yourself) are stuck with the 10% ethanol in the Chicago collar counties. You have to go out towards Rockford to get "real" gas.

Re: my 30+ milage, admittedly I was driving the SLS vs STS, most likely using real gas on the 450 mile road trip home with the cruise set at 70-75 (depening on the state I was in). Ideal driving conditions for that type of milage. Now that I am using it in my normal conditions, in colder tempuratures, with 10% ethanol, it has settled down to a respectable 24 MPG. While my 30+ was somthing to brag about, I hope no one took it as a benchmark for anything other than a long road trip. Now that the snow is starting to fly, I'll be giving it another test on a snowmobiling trip to Eagle River Wisc. in the next month or two. Hopefuly, she'll perform as well.

gdgrosse
11-26-05, 12:39 PM
Wow, quite a rant there ....


You hit the nail on the head with your reply... Thanks for filling in the reality part. I'm going to edit my post to remove a few of the [harsh words about engineers], but I still want that webpage-like interactive maintenence system in my car!

mcowden
11-26-05, 12:45 PM
I have it on good authority that the ingredient that makes the Chevron Fuel INjector Cleaner with Techron work so good is Naptha. Naptha is a much milder solvent. Naptha probably does a nice job cleaning things out. I have used that, and it works. As was earlier in this amazing thread... Naptha is what is in a Zippo lighter. You can save a lot of money and just buy a can of Naptha, instead of that Zippo or Ronson lighter fluid. Exact same thing.

So look, if you're not getting 30mpg people, resist the urge to start pouring Acetone in your tank. Where you drive, how you drive, what you're driving, and what kinda gas they're selling you has a lot more to do with it than adding Acetone or anything else to your tank!

Good points, Patrick, but I have to correct you on the Techron thing. It is not Naptha, but it may contain a small percentage of Naptha. Techron contains polyether amines (PEA), which is a chemical technology developed and patented by Chevron in the 1980s. (US Patent number 4564372) They couldn't patent it if it was just Naptha, but it does contain some Naptha. Putting straight Naptha in your tank won't do much to clean the fuel system, but it will help get the grease stains out of your shirt when you're done. :thumbsup:

I stumbled across this site the other day, and people might find some good information here about how to increase fuel mileage. I have no affiliation with the site or its owners, so I'm not promoting it for selfish purposes at all. I just think it's relevant to this discussion:

http://www.gassavers.org

Aaron J Williams
11-28-05, 09:36 AM
I'd rather have my money go to GM rather than greedy oil _insert word here_'s ;)

BTW: The government makes three times as much on a gallon of gas as the oil companies do, and the oil companies are making money for their stockholders (anyone with a 401K) while the government is taking money for the welfare crowd.Now, who are the greedy _insert word here_'s?

ewill3rd
11-28-05, 10:56 AM
I know I am going to regret this... but how does the gov't make more than the oil companies?
Maybe you mean because of the taxes? But those are at a fixed rate.
If the oil companies raise the price on the gas the tax is still directly proportional to the amount of gallons sold.

I am sadly uninformed on how much the taxes are on gas per gallon in a given state but let's say that it's 30 cents per gallon.
If a gas station sells 100 gallons of gas that's thirty dollars.
If the petrolium supplier manufactures 100 gallons of gas at a cost of a conservative dollar a gallon and sells it for 2 dollars versus 3 dollars it seems to me they are making a much larger profit than the "government"?

Please enlighten me.
It's also my understanding that gas tax is slated for the highway budget or otherwise controlled as far as spending. I might be a little naive there too.
I don't think they can take gas tax money and give it to "poor people".

Aaron J Williams
11-29-05, 12:12 AM
In the late 1990s an industry wide study showed that oil industry profits were estimated at approximately 7.3 cents per gallon. Third quarter 2005 ConocoPhillips reported 9 cents per gallon earnings with an average price of $2.60 per gallon during the quarter. According to the US Dept. of Energy the gas dollar breaks down as follows:
crude oil 52%
refining 20%
federal,state,and local taxes 20%
distribution and marketing 8%
Federal tax is 18.4 cents per gallon (over twice the money conoco made) while state taxes range from 14 cents in Wyoming to more than 44 cents per gallon in New York (over 4 times what conoco made) and local taxes on top of that. So I was wrong in my previous post, taxes are more than three times profit. When I said "welfare crowd" I didn't mean poor people. I was thinking of Alaska's "bridge to nowhere" which joins Ketchikan (pop. 5000) to Gravina island (pop. 50) at a cost to build of $315 million and an annual upkeep cost of $110,00 which will be paid for all or in part by the gas tax. Some other things that the $284 BILLION transportration bill will pay for include $3 million to renovate the packard museum in Warren,Ohio;$3 million to build the West Ridge Nature Preserve near Chicago,Ill; $600,00 to rehabilitate a historic transportation-related warehouse on the Erie Canal in the town of Lyons, New York;$750,00 to build the High Knob Horse Trails near Jefferson,Virginia;$1,705,00 to convert Union Station in North Canaan,Connecticut into a transportation museum;$9.6 million to build a bicycle and pedestrian trail network in East Austin,Texas;$9 million to build a bycycle and pedestrian trail in Murfeesboro,Tennessee;$4 million for the Queens and Brooklyn County Graffiti Elimination Program in New York. $ 52 BILLION will go to subsidize mass transit (for the poor people) which works out to about 18% of the $284 BILLION . Mass transit accounts for 2% of the miles travelled per person as opposed to roads which are used for 91% of person-miles travelled . 18% of the gas tax is funding 2% of usage. Crude oil prices are the biggest determining factor in the cost of gas and since prices fluctuate constantly , the oil companies have to factor crude oil replacement costs into pricing of the finished product. I hope this was helpful! BTW I am not in the oil industry, just a mechanic in Wisconsin.:duck:

ewill3rd
11-29-05, 08:21 AM
Thank you for the clarification. :)