: No spark



97 Eldorad0
10-24-13, 08:47 AM
Hi guys, Need your help again. I have completed the tear down of the 97 eldorado. I installed the sure grip head bolts, and now I have put it back together. After numerous issues with wiring harness, I think I have found homes for nearly all plugs and grounds. I wanted to crank it up before putting radiator back in just to see. Therefore, I have not connected the two front fan plugs. Also, I have not put fluid in the power steering, or brake system yet. And so you'll know, I added what I thought was a LOT of oil (6 or 7 quarts) and it barely registers on the dip stick. I tried to crank it up anyway-nothing. Motor turns (nothing is hitting) but there is no spark. I pulled the number eight plug wire (and then the number 2) and neither had spark so I assume the other 2 do not either. Broke out the electric meter reader and learned all fuses seem to be OK (except cig lighter). Then moved to coil pack. It has four plugs-two on each side. Three out of four showed nothing on meter (could be me) but one seemed to show power to it.
Although I am perplexed a little, I think it is probably something stupid that I am over looking. I say this because at first, whenn I pulled one of the four wires going to coil (front drivers side) the head lights would come on. Plug it back in and they go off. Found a ground wire (another one good grief) and that problem stopped. Could there be a ground wire somewhere that I have missed? Having said that, there is one ground(I think) that is absent. I hope you guys can tell me what goes there an dhow important it is. It just so happens to be connected to the same nut that connects the coil pack ground wire. There is anotherr wire there that has been stripped off and I see no exposed wire hanging around that should go there. I will attach a picture shortly. Thanks for any suggestions trouble shooting this.

97 Eldorad0
10-24-13, 09:04 AM
Here is the wire that is connected to same nut that grounds coils pack. The small wire is missing.155313

Submariner409
10-24-13, 09:44 AM
Your engine takes 7.5 quarts of oil with filter. That brings the proper level to <== XXXXXXXXXX ==== on the dipstick. The oil level warning goes on at about 2 quarts low - just about where there's barely a trace of oil on the tip of the dipstick.

Read the articles on oil, oil life, and oil consumption way up ^^^ in the top black bar - the Cadillac Technical Archive.

You need every ground to be clean and tight - and connected. If the ground wire from the ICM to the engine is not connected, the engine probably will not run.

98eldo32v
10-24-13, 10:54 AM
This is going to be ugly.

Check cam sensor at the cylinder head.

Make sure crankshaft position sensors plugs are in the right spots and connected. Gray connector for top sensor, black connector on bottom sensor on a 97. MAKE SURE YOU HEAR THEM "CLICK" when connected.

I just finished studding Eldorado-Red's engine. I didn't push the connectors to the crankshaft position sensors in all the way.....NO START.

When it tries to run, the engine will give a little hiccup, Stop.

Turn the key off, then restart. It should fire right up the second time.

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If it's an ETC, you're going to love the way it runs.


Eldorado_Red's ETC was unreal when we drove it. I couldn't believe how quick it was for such a massive car.

It impressed me so much I'm looking for an ETC to add to my ESC and Deville.

Good luck with yours.....

Ranger
10-24-13, 11:36 AM
Regarding the ground wire. I can't see where that one is attached, but the nylon fuel rail had a ground wire attached. When GM did the fuel rail recall, the mechanics would simply cut the ground wire rather than take the time to remove it. It was located at the front of the fuel rail near the P/S pump. The SS rail needed no ground wire as it was grounded by mounting it. Perhaps that is what you are looking at.

97 Eldorad0
10-24-13, 02:28 PM
Thanks for the replies. The ICM is grounded. The picture of that stripped off wire is grounded to the same bolt as the ICM.

"Make sure crankshaft position sensors plugs are in the right spots and connected. Gray connector for top sensor, black connector on bottom "

Is that possible? I mean, I've noticed that most plugs are self explanatory as they are a little different, and wiring harness doesn't allow most plugs to stray. Will they plug into each other and does the harness allow for this error?

Let me ask this while im thinking of it. When I took it apart, and found TDC @ cylinder #1, the two sprockets where at 1 oclock and 12 oclock, as opposede to 6 and 12. When assembled it was put at 6 and 12. This doesn't matter right? That top timing sprocket doesn't turn anything right?

Ranger
10-24-13, 03:50 PM
Not 100% positive, but I believe this diagram is for #1 @ TDC.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=108152&d=1368629119

Submariner409
10-24-13, 04:06 PM
That diagram assumes the engine is set at #1 TDC.

The crank sprocket turns the intermediate which turns both chains (4 cam sprockets).

Upon assembly the dots align at 12, 6, 12, 12, 12, 12.

Some engines have the right exhaust cam sprocket stampings (RE) offset from the dot - use the dot.

97 Eldorad0
10-24-13, 05:18 PM
As long as the intermediate sprocket does't actually turn anything, I don't see why it would matter. The #1 cylinder was TDC on the compression stroke( all valves closed) and when disassembled, the intermediate sprocket was at 1 oclock. Since there are x number of teeth on that sprocket, every time around ends up a different place until it repeats that pattern. In other words, TDC is found when these two sprockets are 1 and 12 AND 6 and 12. The cylinders all fell in the same place at both locations so I just put it back at 6 and 12 figuring it doesn't matter and the intermediate sprocket turns nothing (just a chain guide of sorts connecting several together in sequence).

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"Not 100% positive, but I believe this diagram is for #1 @ TDC."

And that's how I put it back. When I took it apart, the # 1 cylinder was TDC, crank was at 12 and all four cam dots were at 12 oclock (within a tooth or so). The things this issue will make you think of...

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BTW, I even marked the flywheel and it was at same location when re assembling (6 and 12 oclock) just like it was at 1 and 12 oclock. Unless there is an intermediate sprocket sensor, I don't understand how this would matter. It seems to be a math equation using the number of teeth on the intermediate sprocket and the number of teeth on the crank sprocket.

Submariner409
10-24-13, 08:25 PM
With everything initially properly aligned, everything - valve-wise - will be "in time" every 720 degrees of crank rotation. All the chains and dots will align as in the diagram every 17 crank rotations.

The crank chain turns the intermediate sprocket; the intermediate sprocket turns both cam chains which turn the cam sprockets. The odd number of teeth and different intermediate sprocket diameters figures in there somewhere. The GM service manual discusses this phenomenon.

If you had kept manually rolling the engine over you would have reached the point at which all the dots were as in the diagram.

97 Eldorad0
10-25-13, 03:04 AM
'Make sure crankshaft position sensors plugs are in the right spots and connected. Gray connector for top sensor, black connector on bottom"

That was the problem!!! Yay!! I heard her come to life tonight for the first time. The fuel is disgusting and filled with water(was sitting for years) so I must drain it. I also have to hook up radiator, brakes, transmission, and steering lines. I also have to replace one cv axel. Not sure what I would have done without you guys. I can't thank you enough.

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I guess I forgot.....I had those plugs reversed( you get no spark). Just wanted that to be clear for future readers. It's amaziing that those plugs ARE even reversable. It seemed like every plug was a lttle bigger or smaller and was next to impossible to mess up.....except these two....at least they weren't important LOL.

Harry Yarnell
10-25-13, 03:14 PM
This was poor engineering on GM's part. Those two connectors should have been different. That said, the two sensors are the same...
Reminds me of an issue years ago when we were installing a computer lab at the University of MD, and there were two routers involved; both from the same vendor, same part number. Both had external power supplies; only one was AC, and the other DC. Same connectors for both routers. Sure enough, we hooked them up to the wrong power packs, and blew them. ...Something about a mid-production change...

Ranger
10-25-13, 04:49 PM
I could be wrong, but I thought when I installed my new CKP sensors they where different, but that was over a year ago and I have CRS.

From Sub409 ..... How did I do this ???

Up to ??? 98 ??? the CKPs were the same mechanically and electrically - you had to know which connector went to which CKP. The later ones are both mechanically and electrically (connectors) different - one CKP fits one hole and only one connector will match.

Here's a pair of 2002 CKPs ...........

98eldo32v
10-25-13, 08:20 PM
To get most of the fuel out:

Jack vehicle up, preferably high enough to get a bucket or extremely large drain pan underneath the vehicle.

Remove fuel filter, save the retarded plastic bracket that holds it onto the other lines.

Angle flexible line towards the bucket.

Depending on the amount of fuel in there this might take a while but goes rather quickly.

Hop in front seat, cycle ignition key to "On/Run" for 3-5 seconds, then turn off.

Repeat until you get the majority of the fuel out, which will stink.

Replace fuel filter, replenish gas, enjoy vehicle..........

Eldorado_RED
10-28-13, 03:22 AM
Crazy that we had this same exact problem...spent 2 days buying and replacing parts, pulling hair out and punching puppies just for it to be the crankshaft sensors. Glad you were able to get it running

97 Eldorad0
10-28-13, 10:36 AM
Thrilled to have access to you guys. Drove it home yesterday...even though it had some minor issues. Small brake line leak(easy). Small water leak (a little harder), to the heater core water pipes that I had to fabricate (couldn't find the part). I'm sure you guys know, it's the double water line(metal) in back of engine. I bent it but a clamp needs to be tightened, i'm sure.

When driving home, the low oil pressure light cam on and then said shut off motor. This was at about the halfway point home on a 25 mile trip. I did as it said, checked oil (full), got back in, started it up, and no more warning light.

When I initially started it, it idled fine. Sputtered at times but I contributed that to the nasty fuel( I did add water remover to help). Motore coughed a little(like bad gas)THEN, all of a sudden, it just decided to up the idle to about the 2 grand mark on it's own...and spit out a big cloud of white smoke. It still idles like that. Drove it home anyway(went 50 MPH without touching pedal). I know I have a couple vacuum lines off, but I hope the idle returns when it gets better gas. Thanks BTW, for the suggestion of getting gas out. I did that the other day but stopped because I didn't know if I was doing damage to ignition or fuel pump. I was able to just disconnect the fuel line under hood and let it spit 3 or four ounces at a time from there. I will get pictures of vacuum line(s) a little later. Thoughts appreciated.

Submariner409
10-28-13, 10:48 AM
Your oil pressure warning - Did you perform the exact crank pulley torque + rotation sequence ? The oil pump is driven by friction between the crank pulley hub, the oil pump drive sleeve, and the face of the crank snout. If that pulley bolt is not properly torqued/rotated you WILL have oil pressure problems.

Initial torque to 37 lb/ft, then rotated (tightened) 120 degrees.

- or - the oil pressure sending switch is getting ready to pack it in.

You need to have all vacuum/intake/PCV lines correctly hooked up - it won't run right until you do.

Ranger
10-28-13, 11:18 AM
Motore coughed a little(like bad gas)THEN, all of a sudden, it just decided to up the idle to about the 2 grand mark on it's own...and spit out a big cloud of white smoke.
THAT is not from the gas.

I think way too much is made of so called "bad gas". I seriously doubt you'll find any difference when you get the gas changed.

97 Eldorad0
10-29-13, 04:49 AM
If you saw this gas......LOL. The shop I used had diesel fuel in the parts cleaner. I don't know if this is normal or not. I cleaned everything in that. The entire engine was soaked in that stuff so I guess it needs to burn off. It's getting better.
I just tightened the crank. I was told 44 lbs(i think) and that's what I put it at. Thanks for the info-I'll keep it in mind if I see that light again.
Only had time to crank it up for a second yesterday. It didn't idle like it had been-almost sounded normal.
It's like Christine-has a mind of it's own.
I took time off to do this. I am now behind on my work and pretty busy. I just wanted it home so I could work on it at leisure. I will soon tackle the vacuum line issues. And diagrams would be appreciated, as I know Ranger is the king of such.

Submariner409
10-29-13, 08:42 AM
"44 lbs" is NOT anywhere close to the correct crankshaft pulley bolt torque. Did you go back and do the below procedure ?

You lock the engine by blocking the flexpate gear teeth, loosen the crank pulley bolt and torque it to 37 lb/ft and THEN tighten it an additional 120 degrees. Use a new bolt. Talk to Chris in parts at Rippy Cadillac, over there >>>>>

Hope you used all the correct torque settings (GM service manual/year) on the rest of the engine ..................

98eldo32v
10-29-13, 09:18 AM
You better torque that crankshaft bolt to spec, or you're asking for trouble. You better have a long extension on the 1/2" breaker bar that'll be needed.

Getting to the 120 degree mark on the torque angle meter is going to be fun...........

Ranger
10-29-13, 06:03 PM
The shop I used had diesel fuel in the parts cleaner. I don't know if this is normal or not. I cleaned everything in that.
I have kerosene in mine. Not a lot of difference.

Submariner409
10-31-13, 03:13 PM
Kerosene X2.

97 Eldorad0
11-01-13, 11:17 AM
The Chiltons book I used said 44lbs. I'll have to do it again, I guess. 120 degress is about 12 to 4 oclock, right? Perhaps I could just mark the bolt after 37 lbs.

97 Eldorad0
11-01-13, 11:24 AM
Feel free to create new thread if appropriate, but here are two vacuum lines without a home as of yet, if anyone can help. Thank you.

157290

157298

Ranger
11-01-13, 12:30 PM
The lower one is the EVAP system purge vent.

The upper one I think might be for the FPR.

CadillacLuke24
11-01-13, 04:40 PM
The Chiltons book I used said 44lbs.

There's your problem. Chilton and Hayes stuff is pure garbage. Use them for padding the garage floor.

Do yourself a favor and troll eBay for the genuine Factory Service Manuals. I believe there are multiple volumes, be sure to get all needed for your model year. Look long and hard, there are deals to be had. Got mine for $7.