: CTS-V vs. 6.0 GTO?



V-Beach
04-20-05, 07:26 PM
There's a 6.0 w/custom exhaust lurking in my neighborhood, If I encounter this guy at a red light am I in a heap of trouble?

akm2k5
04-20-05, 07:32 PM
Yes. and no. Its a drivers race.. Whoever gets the better launch.

davesdeville
04-20-05, 07:48 PM
They're very close. All else equal the GTO will take you by a hair.

Devil_concours
04-20-05, 08:03 PM
They're very close. All else equal the GTO will take you by a hair.
Are you sure? All the comparsion points towards cts-v being as a victor by little margin.

Crozier
04-20-05, 08:06 PM
Yes. and no. Its a drivers race.. Whoever gets the better launch.

:yeah:

slow35th
04-20-05, 08:10 PM
The V has a 3.73 rear and the GTO has 3.42. Similar weight and similar HP. It's a drivers race. The car rags have the V a little faster.

jdodman
04-20-05, 08:12 PM
My question is, does the GTO hook up ? Or does the rear beat itself like a jack hammer ??? This is a drivers race, but the first 60 feet might make the diff from a dead stop. Try an talk him into starting the race at 30mph, and hope your rear can handle the power shifts at 6000rpm's...

Katshot
04-20-05, 08:45 PM
As was already said, IMO it's up to the drivers. The cars are so close that any error by either driver will immediately hand the other the race.

Vrocks
04-20-05, 08:53 PM
What everyone else said... virtually a dead heat, if the drivers are equal.

Devil_concours
04-20-05, 08:57 PM
My question is, does the GTO hook up ? Or does the rear beat itself like a jack hammer ??? This is a drivers race, but the first 60 feet might make the diff from a dead stop. Try an talk him into starting the race at 30mph, and hope your rear can handle the power shifts at 6000rpm's...
They hop around like the cts-v

Dave's V
04-20-05, 09:04 PM
The GTO is lighter by only 100 lbs, the CTS V has 3.73 instead of 3.42 gears. Generally a race will be close and it depends on the drivers. I believe if they have the same skilled driver, the V would win even just by a close gap. It also depends on tires. As long as the V has the F1s, the GTO is a goner.

GTO's have rear end issues also, just Pontiac says they are normal so they won't fix them. I know an 04 that whines like my old 74 Plymouth did.

akm2k5
04-20-05, 09:48 PM
wheel Hops can be expected with Ind Rear suspensions...

jdodman
04-20-05, 10:20 PM
I wonder how come you do not see the hop on the V commercials ?? You know, the zero to 60 in under 5 seconds one..

I wonder why the V race car does not hop ?

I believe these all have the indy suspension.

akm2k5
04-20-05, 10:23 PM
Thats a good question. Ive heard GTOs have wheel hop and mustang cobras have wheel hop.. So I asked, and someone said that Ind Rear Susp. get wheel hops compared to the solid rear axel. I dont know why you dont see wheel hop in the commercials or in the V race car... But thats a good question...
and I would like to know also.


I wonder how come you do not see the hop on the V commercials ?? You know, the zero to 60 in under 5 seconds one..

I wonder why the V race car does not hop ?

I believe these all have the indy suspension.

dannystang
04-20-05, 10:34 PM
Ive never heard of the high performance mercedes or bmws hopping...

Don't they have Ind?

Hell I read in article on ones of those 600 hp benz convertibles, where the guy couldnt hook up the tires...never mentioned hop though.

I think we have a consperiecy

Got to learn to spell.

Florian
04-20-05, 11:24 PM
:yeah:

You aint lyin!!!!! Yikes



Florian

Dennisscars
04-20-05, 11:28 PM
Blaa Blaa Blaa... I could have won the Superbowl on Monday...

Get the car out of the garage, go hunt the guy down and find out.....

maybe he's out in your neighborhood huntin' for you...

homer403
04-20-05, 11:37 PM
V-MAX, you still reading this board??? What's your opinion? BTW, V-MAX got rid of his V for an 05 GTO.

Florian
04-20-05, 11:40 PM
welcome back Vmax.....I understand your frustration with the V....but like a good woman, the more often you stick your....wait, thats another saying. The V can be a vexing temptress, but ride her out and she'll prove her worth.

Florian

Barak
04-21-05, 12:25 AM
I would really like to know why anyone would be so, so....something to get rid of their V for a GTO. Please explain, I'm intrigued.

V-Max
04-21-05, 12:54 AM
I cannot put my finger on but I am truly impressed with the LS2 compared to the LS6, in the GTO and V respectively. Even though the cars are similar in weight the responsiveness and torque of the LS2 in the GTO is an eye opener.

With 500 miles on the GTO I have not really rung it out but can remember the V being a little sluggish below 3500 RPMs and really taking off and not letting up until the rev limiter. The LS2 sets you back in the seat and does not let up. It does not have the visceral feeling of the LS6 and is lacking a noticeable lope at idle.

The suspension over all is more planted and sure footed. You have to really hamfisted to engage TC in the GTO. There is no Stability program in the GTO if that tells you anything. The GTO does ride a bit firmer but does not have the edgey ride quality that I think the runflats create in the V. The engine in the GTO sits so low that GM added a skid plate. Lowering the CG in highspeed turns. Have not done any burnouts but have heard a few on ls2gto.com complain about wheel hop. My buddy has the first year S2000 and gets wheel hop occasionally.

The drivetrain is pretty much flawless in a car with this much power and price. I'd love to compare it the C6 as I had a '99 FRC. There is no clunking noises when shifting like the V and the gear box and diff. are rewardingly quiet. There is a very slight diff. whine at 50 MPH under light throttle which I will keep track of as the miles grow. Though my passengers cannot hear it. The diff(Dana) is hugh compared to the V.

The GTO could use some sway bars or some aftermarket spring/shock combo to eliminate body roll. The BFG KDW with a 400 wear rating don't help with track like the F1 runflats in the V.

I have a 3 day track school at Grattan in Michigan this weekend and will give a full report. Since I only had the car a week(1,000 miles) I'll be on street tires for three days. :)

Norm

akm2k5
04-21-05, 01:21 AM
wow.. VMAX, make sure you come back to give us updates on the GTO. I love the GTO a lot, but I wanted 4 doors.. So the V was my obvious choice... Did you ever post any pics of your car?

V-Max
04-21-05, 01:57 AM
Here a few pics my buddy took at his house in Independence, OH.

http://img258.echo.cx/my.php?image=gto17ti.jpg
http://img258.echo.cx/my.php?image=gto26op.jpg
http://img258.echo.cx/my.php?image=gto32md.jpg
http://img258.echo.cx/my.php?image=gto45yd.jpg
http://img258.echo.cx/my.php?image=gto54ot.jpg
http://img258.echo.cx/my.php?image=gt060iy.jpg

Norm

Dave's V
04-21-05, 02:18 AM
Well they have a 4 page article on ls2gto.com about rear end whine, so it looks like the Dana 44 isn't any better than our Getrag. Plus numerous tranny problems, paint at 3,500 looking worse than "my 50,000 mile GTP"(Grand Prix), tires rubbing against struts, etc.

It is a nice ride but both cars throw you back in the seat pretty good. GTO's have wheel hop also.

I liked the GTO's power and interior but I couldn't convince myself to like the exterior. The rear end looks like a lot of import cars, the front like a certain GM car that is gone.

If my V had so many problems, I would probably get Cadillac to take it back and buy another one.

akm2k5
04-21-05, 02:40 AM
Norm (vmax), those are some great pics. I like the GTO exterior, but the aussies get some really nice body kits. Look at the pics below. If we had that option, I would get the GTO no questions asked... (this is a Holden Coupe4)

http://www.rsportscars.com/foto/03/hsvcoupe403_01.jpg
http://www.rsportscars.com/foto/03/hsvcoupe403_02.jpg

http://www.rsportscars.com/foto/03/hsvcoupe403_05.jpg

Playdrv4me
04-21-05, 03:20 AM
Nice car, and by all means more power to those who want the raw power and smoothness of the LS2, however the car has to do something for me from the outside too, and on this point, the CTS-V is the hands down no-contest winner. The V has a soul, the GTO just looks like an smoothed over Grand Prix to me.

But then remember... the original GTO was not a looker in its time either, and look where it is today...

Devil_concours
04-21-05, 03:21 AM
Isn't holden monaro lighter than gto?

V-Max
04-21-05, 08:39 AM
Styling is not everyones liking, especially considering the nameplate. I call it my pumped up Chevy Cavalier. :)

The LS2, probably like the V when it gets the motor, recieved a new differential. We'll find out how it breaks in.

Not sure of the weight but about 100 lbs. can be removed including the spare tire and accessories.

http://www.exoticperformanceplus.com/projectCar.php?car=24

I was really impressed with the paint quality, especially orange peel compared to other Pontiacs on the showroom floor. It was noticeably better than anything on the floor under the flourencent lighting.

Norm

akm2k5
04-21-05, 10:56 AM
IIRC there was a discussion on ls1gto.com about which one weighs more, after research we found that the monaro weighs more. This is probably due to the extra features that the monaro comes with that the GTO does not. For example: Side airbags, auto climate control, backup sensors.. etc.

darvish
04-21-05, 11:31 AM
I think if i had it to do all over again.... I would buy a GTO having problems on a cheaper car would not piss me off so much PLUS the aftermarket parts for the GTO are a lot easier to find as there are probably more RED GTOs alone than there are Vs of all colors.... as for the styling.... eh... it looks like a rental car..

I would debadge it.... put Pontiac Grand Prix emblems.. a Hertz decal in the back window and drive it around. then dump the 20K less i paid for it into modifications!!

The other thing i will not do again is pay for a car by check. I was wondering if financing with GMAC for example gives you a bit more leverage for repair issues? can you threaten to invoke a lemon law to GMAC who will have to eat the first year depreciaition when you turn the car back in?

Bill
St Louis

trukk
04-21-05, 01:58 PM
Here a few pics my buddy took at his house in Independence, OH.

http://img258.echo.cx/my.php?image=gto17ti.jpg
http://img258.echo.cx/my.php?image=gto26op.jpg
http://img258.echo.cx/my.php?image=gto32md.jpg
http://img258.echo.cx/my.php?image=gto45yd.jpg
http://img258.echo.cx/my.php?image=gto54ot.jpg
http://img258.echo.cx/my.php?image=gt060iy.jpg

Norm

HEY! That's not a GTO, it's a C32 AMG!

:histeric:

-Chris

Klamath
04-21-05, 04:09 PM
I would debadge it.... put Pontiac Grand Prix emblems.. a Hertz decal in the back window and drive it around.

LOL. :histeric: :histeric:

GNSCOTT
04-21-05, 04:59 PM
I think the main problem is it is an old design on an old chassis with an overpriced msrp. GM had to DEEP discount the GTO to get it to sell. The name had/has little to do with making or losing sales. Its the OLD design (looks) combined with a high price tag. It is a good bang for the buck and I think a slap in the face to V owners if we are going to have to pay $20k more for the same HP. The V's LS2 better have alot more.

jdodman
04-21-05, 05:44 PM
A friend of mine picked up a 04 GTO in January 2005, off a dealer lot, with 500 miles, for 24k. I do not think much of the car, but that is one hell of a deal for that car... Granted the 05 is the one to have, but still....

eski
04-21-05, 11:53 PM
Good luck:burn:

Katshot
04-23-05, 08:58 AM
wheel Hops can be expected with Ind Rear suspensions...

Funny how The CTS-V seems to have far more wheel-hop than the GTO though. Probably due to the suspension being softer.
Oh and BTW, I've never heard any Cobra guys bitching about wheel-hop. ;)

Devil_concours
04-23-05, 09:53 AM
Funny how The CTS-V seems to have far more wheel-hop than the GTO though. Probably due to the suspension being softer.
Oh and BTW, I've never heard any Cobra guys bitching about wheel-hop. ;)
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=308589&postcount=5

HDMLNIUM
04-23-05, 10:07 AM
This GTO doesn't seemed to have any wheel hop..:thumbsup:
http://www.moderndaymusclecars.com/gto/videos/mdmc11.49.rm

If my V would launch like that I would be a happy man..:banghead:

Bill-05-V
http://photobucket.com/albums/v466/HDMLNIUM/th_front-1.jpghttp://photobucket.com/albums/v466/HDMLNIUM/th_engine-yeah.jpghttp://photobucket.com/albums/v466/HDMLNIUM/th_rear-1.jpg
05 CTS-V--- Light Platinum
Llumar Clear Bra and Tinted windows, LS6 Emblem, Stealth-V z06 fuel rail covers and Cags Eliminator,
K&N drop in filter, B&B 3" resonator exhaust....more mods coming..
Online Photos http://photobucket.com/albums/v466/HDMLNIUM/

jdodman
04-23-05, 01:24 PM
There was a post here about 6 months ago, with a link to a very cool video, where the guy was doing about a 2 minute burn out with his V. It was done with to a tune by Papa Roach... I could not find it with a search.
I would like to know what that guy did to his rear suspension, and I am sure he put a line lock in.

Dave's V
04-23-05, 01:44 PM
I think the main problem is it is an old design on an old chassis with an overpriced msrp. GM had to DEEP discount the GTO to get it to sell. The name had/has little to do with making or losing sales. Its the OLD design (looks) combined with a high price tag. It is a good bang for the buck and I think a slap in the face to V owners if we are going to have to pay $20k more for the same HP. The V's LS2 better have alot more.

The name is one of the GTO's big problems. The original GTO was a legend. It changed the way we looked at cars. The new GTO is a redesigned Holden Monaro so Pontiac didn't even give the GTO name respect. Add in the boring exterior and high prices and lack of power the first year and the GTO was in trouble for the start. Plus it is made in Australia.

The GTO will probably stay on the same platform since GM had to let Holden build the car in Australia for 3 years so they can get the platform.

Katshot
04-23-05, 05:03 PM
I think one thing that everybody misses is the fact that the "original" GTO was pretty boring from a styling standpoint. Early GTO's were far from the flashy ones of the late 60's and early 70's like the Judge for example. They were just like most other muscle cars of that era, cheap middle of the road cars that the OEM dumped big engines and stiff suspensions in. Hell, sometimes not even the stiff suspensions! My '65 Impala SS was virtually impossible to tell apart from the standard Impala from the outside. Different wheel covers and a couple badges?

Tom Paine
04-23-05, 06:30 PM
I just ran into Vmax at Grattan race track yesterday. He and I hung out together with our GTO and CTS V while our Audi friends whooped on us. It was cold and pouring ran. Not a good day for RWD high power cars. However, I'm glad i didn't stay around for the snowy race track that they encountered today. I'll be anxious to hear from Norm on the rest of the weekend.

In the rain, i left all electronic controls on. Lots of intervening but it kept me off the armco. My tires were worn F1's so lots of hydroplaning (yikes). It was an easy day for the car and a hard day for driver. Next time i want dry pavement.

ronr
04-23-05, 09:00 PM
I just ran into Vmax at Grattan race track yesterday. He and I hung out together with our GTO and CTS V while our Audi friends whooped on us. It was cold and pouring ran. Not a good day for RWD high power cars. However, I'm glad i didn't stay around for the snowy race track that they encountered today. I'll be anxious to hear from Norm on the rest of the weekend.

In the rain, i left all electronic controls on. Lots of intervening but it kept me off the armco. My tires were worn F1's so lots of hydroplaning (yikes). It was an easy day for the car and a hard day for driver. Next time i want dry pavement.

I had my V at Grattan last year for the West Michigan Porsche club event. The starter at the track laughed out loud every time I came to the start line. The last thing he ever thought he'd see at a Porsche club event was a Cadillac. After they had to bump me up to a faster class and I still passed most of the field in my bone stock V they had a whole new outlook on Cadillacs. :coolgleam

Crozier
04-23-05, 09:04 PM
I had my V at Grattan last year for the West Michigan Porsche club event. The starter at the track laughed out loud every time I came to the start line. The last thing he ever thought he'd see at a Porsche club event was a Cadillac. After they had to bump me up to a faster class and I still passed most of the field in my bone stock V they had a whole new outlook on Cadillacs. :coolgleam

:histeric: :thumbsup:

CVP33
04-24-05, 02:04 AM
What's all this CTS-V vs. other great cars? What we need to figure out is how we can afford a CTS-V AND a GTO AND an SRT-8 AND a Z06 AND a Viper. I could care less which one is faster as the V is plenty fast. I just want one of each. :lildevil:

V-Max
04-25-05, 10:50 AM
Tom, the weather broke Saturday until the last session. It was dry and about 45F. We did lane change, slalom, and thresold braking exercises in the morning so we got two runs in the afternoon. It rained all evening and then to snow. There was about one inch of snow on the cars before the last beer Saturday and a couple of us had visions of a plowed track like Mid-Ohio was a few weeks earlier. :) It ended up just being wet for the first two sessions. Sunday it was dry for all sessions but breezy around 35F.

The GTO handled good and the brakes and tires started to get hot and fade away about the same time. Many comments about the '05 model with it's hp increase with the LS2 and the awesome exhaust note of from the new dual exhaust. It probably roars like the most untamed B&B system without the sideeffects of an aftermarket system.

I was running stock tires(BFG KDW M+S) and stock brake pads(C5 PBR caliper with some soft probably organic street pad). The the C5 caliper I have a few choices in pads and might try to do some ducting before spending big bucks for brake kit upgrade. Most of the Audi's and other cars in attendance have upgraded to Porsche brakes or Stoptechs. I might have been the only one running stock pads. :)

The tires with the 400 wear rating would only stay quiet for the first 2-3 laps. They worked great in the pouring rain but would fade quickly in the dry. Why they would put a M+S tire on a 400hp car is beyond me. With a street performance tire this car would come alive and even more so with DOT race rubber. But then it would be bumping into performance category of other cars in the line up. ;)

The gearbox/drivetrain seems quieter and better built than the clunking V. I only have a whimpering whine at 50 MPH since new, but it has not changed with three track days and 1500 miles. During lane change maneuvers the steering ratio is a bit slow and like a few could not make it. There is some body roll which stiffer sway bar bushings or sways would help. If you notice in auto mag. testing BMWs have lower slalom skid pad results but excel in the slalom. With it's low sitting engine and a stiffer suspension, back by the LS2, this could be quite a under rated performer.

There is no Stability program in the GTO, just traction control. It is very conservative and could get the back to rotate before it engaged. The GTO has a very low mounted engine which help lower center of gravity. So low they have a skid pate as it is the lowest part of the car.

Below are a few pics of Tom Paine's CTS-V and one of my car and my instructor's Noble M12. The Noble is built in South Africa on a Lotus Elise chasis sporting a twin turbo 3.0 liter Ford Duratec V6 making around 380hp in a 2300 lbs chasis. The handling and mid range power would have my helmut banging the back of the seat if I did not brace my neck. :) Truly impressive package seeing 130 MPH down the front straight. I was seeing 120 MPH before letting off early to save the brakes.

http://img144.echo.cx/my.php?image=050453sh.jpg
http://img144.echo.cx/my.php?image=050524jv.jpg
http://img144.echo.cx/my.php?image=050496yw.jpg
http://img144.echo.cx/my.php?image=050478uf.jpg
http://img144.echo.cx/my.php?image=050559nl.jpg

Norm

6104696
04-25-05, 11:10 AM
There was a post here about 6 months ago, with a link to a very cool video, where the guy was doing about a 2 minute burn out with his V. It was done with to a tune by Papa Roach... I could not find it with a search.
I would like to know what that guy did to his rear suspension, and I am sure he put a line lock in.

Once again bringing Reed into the Limelight as "da man", this can be found in the image library of the FAQ as "Zane's CTS-V video"

Katshot
04-25-05, 02:36 PM
Tom, the weather broke Saturday until the last session. It was dry and about 45F. We did lane change, slalom, and thresold braking exercises in the morning so we got two runs in the afternoon. It rained all evening and then to snow. There was about one inch of snow on the cars before the last beer Saturday and a couple of us had visions of a plowed track like Mid-Ohio was a few weeks earlier. :) It ended up just being wet for the first two sessions. Sunday it was dry for all sessions but breezy around 35F.

The GTO handled good and the brakes and tires started to get hot and fade away about the same time. Many comments about the '05 model with it's hp increase with the LS2 and the awesome exhaust note of from the new dual exhaust. It probably roars like the most untamed B&B system without the sideeffects of an aftermarket system.

I was running stock tires(BFG KDW M+S) and stock brake pads(C5 PBR caliper with some soft probably organic street pad). The the C5 caliper I have a few choices in pads and might try to do some ducting before spending big bucks for brake kit upgrade. Most of the Audi's and other cars in attendance have upgraded to Porsche brakes or Stoptechs. I might have been the only one running stock pads. :)

The tires with the 400 wear rating would only stay quiet for the first 2-3 laps. They worked great in the pouring rain but would fade quickly in the dry. Why they would put a M+S tire on a 400hp car is beyond me. With a street performance tire this car would come alive and even more so with DOT race rubber. But then it would be bumping into performance category of other cars in the line up. ;)

The gearbox/drivetrain seems quieter and better built than the clunking V. I only have a whimpering whine at 50 MPH since new, but it has not changed with three track days and 1500 miles. During lane change maneuvers the steering ratio is a bit slow and like a few could not make it. There is some body roll which stiffer sway bar bushings or sways would help. If you notice in auto mag. testing BMWs have lower slalom skid pad results but excel in the slalom. With it's low sitting engine and a stiffer suspension, back by the LS2, this could be quite a under rated performer.

There is no Stability program in the GTO, just traction control. It is very conservative and could get the back to rotate before it engaged. The GTO has a very low mounted engine which help lower center of gravity. So low they have a skid pate as it is the lowest part of the car.

Below are a few pics of Tom Paine's CTS-V and one of my car and my instructor's Noble M12. The Noble is built in South Africa on a Lotus Elise chasis sporting a twin turbo 3.0 liter Ford Duratec V6 making around 380hp in a 2300 lbs chasis. The handling and mid range power would have my helmut banging the back of the seat if I did not brace my neck. :) Truly impressive package seeing 130 MPH down the front straight. I was seeing 120 MPH before letting off early to save the brakes.

http://img144.echo.cx/my.php?image=050453sh.jpg
http://img144.echo.cx/my.php?image=050524jv.jpg
http://img144.echo.cx/my.php?image=050496yw.jpg
http://img144.echo.cx/my.php?image=050478uf.jpg
http://img144.echo.cx/my.php?image=050559nl.jpg

Norm

Nice pics! The instructor's car looks real nice. Never saw one before.
You mentioned that the GTO's brakes started to fade? All I've read is that the '05 GTO brakes were damn near fade-proof even on the track. How do you think the GTO compares to the 'V' on the track. I'd like to hear comments from someone with experience with both on the track.

V-Max
04-25-05, 04:35 PM
It might be Grattan which is mostly 3rd gear except for the straight, compared to the V at VIR which uses 2,3,4,5th gears with longer straight aways to allow more cooling time. Both of which got the pads hot enough to leave material on the rotor.

Even the European car owners look to upgrade in this area. Throw in some sticky tires and a better suspension and exit speeds increase, straight away speeds increase as does the load on the braking system.

Norm

Tom Paine
04-26-05, 10:35 AM
Hey Norm, Let me know if you sign up for a day at Gingerman racetrack (South Haven Mi.) I understand they have lots of "open" days. I would still like to try the dry pavement. Thanks for the pictures.

ronr
04-26-05, 10:49 AM
Hey Norm, Let me know if you sign up for a day at Gingerman racetrack (South Haven Mi.) I understand they have lots of "open" days. I would still like to try the dry pavement. Thanks for the pictures.

I think the mid-Ohio Porsche club is having a drivers ed day at Gingerman on May 22 (or there abouts). I was thinking of heading to that one myself.

V-Max
04-26-05, 02:03 PM
Tom, that weekend is open. Just having a hard time finding a link to sign up. PM me if you find something.

Thanks,
Norm

miscreant
04-26-05, 04:11 PM
The name is one of the GTO's big problems. The original GTO was a legend. It changed the way we looked at cars. The new GTO is a redesigned Holden Monaro so Pontiac didn't even give the GTO name respect. Add in the boring exterior and high prices and lack of power the first year and the GTO was in trouble for the start. Plus it is made in Australia.

The GTO will probably stay on the same platform since GM had to let Holden build the car in Australia for 3 years so they can get the platform.

Regardless of what anyone says about the GTO being overpriced, or the car not living up to the name, etc, it's all in the eye of the beholder.

First, the car is not over priced. People get the notion it's over priced because it did not sell. Well, let me explain the one and only reason "it did not sell"...

GM tried to import too many.

GM sold at average 11,000 WS6 Trans Ams in any given year, with the last couple years being low. The GTO is for all intents and purposes, a WS6 Substitute, at least it would appeal to WS6 buyers over any other comparison. However, GM tried to import 18,000 GTOs the first year, and subsequently allowed dealerships to "stock up" on 04s - basically GM produced way too many. They even eventually cut production in the last two quarters. This is proof alone that GM had delivered over 13,000 GTO's in the 04 model year (which is calendar year Jan 04 to Dec 04 since they were released then). The fact that the dealerships piled up inventory was not because sales were poor, GM way overestimated sales and subsequently over produced the 04 GTO. However, the 05 GTO production is more inline, and in return the 05 GTO sales are much better. Dealerships willing to discount to ~$500 over invoice can't keep them in stock, at least the good color combos.

Secondly, a fully loaded WS6 was easily approaching $33K, if not over, in 2002, The GTO for 04 rung in at just over $33K. I don't think the GTO is overpriced, and I can refute that statement till everyone is blue in the face.

Lastly, the name. What's really interesting, and I'm not sure everyone knows this, but the "Monaro" was the Pontiac Temtest/Lemans/GTO (do a search some time on Holden Monaro and look at the late 60s and early 70s pics, look familiar?), and the Monaro name has stayed in Australia since. The car we see now as the GTO is the actual evolution of that car over the last 3 decades in australia. Alot of people think that GM just went out and picked some car to be the "GTO", but in all honestly, this is the GTO, however Australian it is - We here in the US (actually Pontiac) chose not to continue it here in the US. If Pontiac would have continued production and the name, it's very possible that what see today would be darn close to what pontiac would have come out with. What makes everyone upset really comes down to the fact that there's been 3 decades since we've seen a "GTO" and so we can conjure in or minds tons of possibilities of what it should have looked like. Fact is, what we have today IS what is has become. And take away the sucky stock tires, and the fact that the 04 equipment (brakes and engine) were really not able to be replaced before introduction, the 04 GTO was NOT a bad replacement at all, it's got a great, non-GM quality interior, and the LS1 is really a great engine, 350hp or not.

However, the 05 is a really promising entry for the GTO name, especially with the SAP package.

Mowgli
04-26-05, 04:52 PM
I agree the GTO is not overpriced.

But as for the sales numbers: poor sales numbers or poor estimating, eh. You say toMAYto I say toMAHto... but as a product company for a new product launch when you widely miss your targets and the following year's targets are "refactored" down 80%... there's not just mis-estimating to blame. Poor sales absolutely are a part of that reality.

Regardless - the car itself is a great car. Had I not needed four doors (and already owning the faster 03 Cobra at the time) I woulda bought one in a heartbeat.

akm2k5
04-26-05, 05:35 PM
if you compare the quality of the parts between the Trans Am and GTO, you will realize it really isnt overpriced.. Appeal is what is holding the car back.

Crozier
04-26-05, 06:50 PM
Lastly, the name. What's really interesting, and I'm not sure everyone knows this, but the "Monaro" was the Pontiac Temtest/Lemans/GTO (do a search some time on Holden Monaro and look at the late 60s and early 70s pics, look familiar?), and the Monaro name has stayed in Australia since. The car we see now as the GTO is the actual evolution of that car over the last 3 decades in australia. Alot of people think that GM just went out and picked some car to be the "GTO", but in all honestly, this is the GTO, however Australian it is - We here in the US (actually Pontiac) chose not to continue it here in the US. If Pontiac would have continued production and the name, it's very possible that what see today would be darn close to what pontiac would have come out with. What makes everyone upset really comes down to the fact that there's been 3 decades since we've seen a "GTO" and so we can conjure in or minds tons of possibilities of what it should have looked like. Fact is, what we have today IS what is has become.

Interesting take on the GTO name. I hadn't ever thought of it that way. Makes you wonder what would have happened if the Corvette or Camaro had disappeared for 30 years and then reappeared as we know them now. (or before the camaro 'went away') Then again, I'm already sick of hearing about how 'ugly' the C6 is, so I'll stop wondering now.
BTW- The C6 is gorgeous.... :D

miscreant
04-26-05, 11:38 PM
I agree the GTO is not overpriced.

But as for the sales numbers: poor sales numbers or poor estimating, eh. You say toMAYto I say toMAHto... but as a product company for a new product launch when you widely miss your targets and the following year's targets are "refactored" down 80%... there's not just mis-estimating to blame. Poor sales absolutely are a part of that reality.

Regardless - the car itself is a great car. Had I not needed four doors (and already owning the faster 03 Cobra at the time) I woulda bought one in a heartbeat.

Poor sales based on the misappropriated numbers, yes. But by October of 2004, when the big incentives hit, the GTO had sold more units over that 9 months preceding than had the WS6 sold in any 9 month period since 1999. I use the WS6 because the people who GM would expect to buy the GTO would be the people who would buy the WS6. They are priced close to the same, and have about the same performance. So why would GM think that they would sell 18,000??? I don't have a clue. But based on the sales figures with no substantial rebate up till October 04, the GTO was tracking 11,000 sales for the year, which is RIGHT inline with what a Pontiac HP vehicle was doing up until that point.

Let's put this in even more perspective. The WS6 typically carried rebates during the time it averaged 11,000 in sales. The 11,000 in sales also includes an inflated 2002 model year where it was extended in production, and the cars had a much longer sales run (since they were being discontinued), and it also includes the 23xx or so of Collectors Edition models. So the 11,000 is actually skewed. Take out 2002, and the number is around 10,000 or less. But again, keep in mind that the WS6 was typically rebated, you could buy one from the get-go for probably less than 30K. However, the GTO for 8 months out of 2004, had no rebates. None. But it still managed to track sales over the WS6 it substituted for and did so at a higher price point. Sales figures for 2004 are over 13,000 units for the GTO. For a specialty, single price, loaded HP Pontiac vehicle, that's a record in my book. But it's very difficult for it to look that way when you are trying to bring 18,000 units in over that calendar year! That means that at any given point you have 5000 cars sitting compared to 13,000 sold. That sucks, and will look like they aren't moving. Which is why production was cut, because they would have had to roll 5000 units into Jan 05 when the new 05 was released.

Then factor in the last condition, the fact that the GTO community got wind of the 05 with 400hp and better brakes, and that certainly held back 04 buyers as well.

Poor sales based on production numbers, yes, poor sales based on accurate marketing and past Substitute sales, no way. It's kinda hard to sell a car to someone who would have never bought it in the first place, and that is what Pontiac tried to do when they decided to produce so many.

jdodman
04-27-05, 07:00 AM
All that said. At the end of the day, a car like the Ford Cobra or GTO has to have 'eye appeal' along with the performance. I was one of the many who saw previews of the GTO, before sales began, and hoped my eyes were wrong. I did not care for the look. If they called it the Jetstar I still would not have liked it. I think they missed the styling mark....Again...

I think many warned Lutz the 'previews' provided by both the GTO fans and muscle car fans alike, said it looked too much like a Grand Am. It did, and still does.

I was / am a die hard GM car guy, so I thought perhaps this is one of those cars that looks bad in pictures, but is actually better in person. When I finally saw one up close, I still think GM missed the mark and I believe sales will substantiate that opinion.

I would never own a Ford, maybe a Chrysler, but never a Rustang. I have to admit though, the new stang hits the styling mark. I believe Ford will enjoy good overall sales and the Cobra especially, will not sit on lots for long, anywhere in the country. Just my opinion. We shall see.

drmustang
04-27-05, 07:48 AM
The new GTOs are really a nice package. Superb engine that is fit for a much a pricier car with a comfortable, great looking interior which is levels above that of the current Mustang. Gm has grossly mishandled this car from the go. Advertising prior to initial deliveries was virtually nonexistant and has increased slightly in recent months. Market timing is another huge issue. The initial 04 was late to arrive at the dealers. The 05 models were 3-4 months behind the rest of the automotive world as well with rumors now flying that this same sales inhibiting scenario will plague the 06 offering.

jdodman
04-27-05, 08:07 AM
As I have stated before on this board, a friend of mine picked up an 04 GTO off the lot with below 1k miles for 24 or 28k (I forgot). Although I will admit that is a lot of car for the money, and a great deal overall, I still think the car styling was a big part of why this car has very high field stock.

The interior and drive train is excellent. Price is fair..
Other than that......Does nothing for me.

Katshot
04-27-05, 08:51 AM
Great posts miscreant. :thumbsup:
I couldn't agree more with you. I never knew that about the history of the Monaro. You seem very well educated in the industry, what do you do for a living? Almost sounds like you're an automotive analyst. I too, originally thought the GTO was a little boring looking but it's grown on me. Just like the CTS-V, Deville and 300C. It REALLY jumped in mind after I drove a '05 though. What a great car! The only killer for me would probably be the tiny trunk.

As for some other posts here, I really hate hearing guys say things like:
"I'd never buy a Chrysler", Or "I'd never by a Ford". Totally discounting an entire marque is ridiculous IMO. I think ALL cars should be taken on an individual basis. I'm an "automotive enthusiast", not just a Cadillac enthusiast, or a GM enthusiast. I go to all kinds of car shows and look at ALL the cars, not just certain makes or models.
We're living in a VERY exciting time. Every couple months there's a new vehicle announced that is not only ground-breaking, but very exciting looking.

Mowgli
04-27-05, 10:48 AM
Poor sales based on production numbers, yes, poor sales based on accurate marketing and past Substitute sales, no way. It's kinda hard to sell a car to someone who would have never bought it in the first place, and that is what Pontiac tried to do when they decided to produce so many.

Good point. And I think we're saying the same thing. One of the growing problems with domestic automakers is their metric for sales targets. In their mind you don't do a new product rollout at all if its going to sell sub 20,000 units. So in the timeframe when Pontiac was putting together the GTO strategy - the project wouldn't even have been greenlighted had they said "it'll sell about 10,000 units". It never would have seen the light of day.

Having said that - that is exactly what is just starting to change in the top tier minds at GM and Ford in particular, and at the other car makers to a lesser degree. Its the gestalt they're just starting to buzz about.

I just returned from Bowling Green conference where this was a big theme and I imagine it will be a big theme up in Dearborn tomorrow and Friday. And that "new realization" is this: the future of models sales is in the 10s of thousands of units, not in the 100s of thousands of units.

They're saying the days of ultra high production numbers ala Taurus and Camry are bygone. The future is Rapid Model Turnaround, sales numbers totalling what were previously thought of as "specialty" numbers, and more model options and packages, distinctors, order-on-demand. Everyone is watching Scion closely, et al. Maybe the GTO being so off target helped drive it home for GM, I'm positive its being used as an anecdote in selling this new strategy to dept heads - it came up in several cocktail conversations at the last conference's meet-n-greets.

This is all a good thing, IMO. Exciting times ahead.

jdodman
04-27-05, 06:45 PM
Katshot,
People who dislike certain car lines, usually have a reason. Like perhaps they had a bad experience while owning one...

Car enthusiasts do not have to like all cars.

I worked in GM car assembly, in 4 different plants across this country and Canada, for over 15 years. I have rebuilt several cars in my garage including a 65 Buick Grand Sport (never should have sold that car).

Although I admit, I have a tendancy to 'root' for GM, I absolutely feel I have the right to an opinion on certain cars.. and certain car lines..

Dave's V
04-27-05, 07:45 PM
All that said. At the end of the day, a car like the Ford Cobra or GTO has to have 'eye appeal' along with the performance. I was one of the many who saw previews of the GTO, before sales began, and hoped my eyes were wrong. I did not care for the look. If they called it the Jetstar I still would not have liked it. I think they missed the styling mark....Again...

I think many warned Lutz the 'previews' provided by both the GTO fans and muscle car fans alike, said it looked too much like a Grand Am. It did, and still does.

I was / am a die hard GM car guy, so I thought perhaps this is one of those cars that looks bad in pictures, but is actually better in person. When I finally saw one up close, I still think GM missed the mark and I believe sales will substantiate that opinion.

I would never own a Ford, maybe a Chrysler, but never a Rustang. I have to admit though, the new stang hits the styling mark. I believe Ford will enjoy good overall sales and the Cobra especially, will not sit on lots for long, anywhere in the country. Just my opinion. We shall see.

I like just about any car that has above average performance. Sure I may flame others, but never on their own enthusiasts board. There are some cars I wouldn't buy due to looks/specific preferences. One example is the RX8. I love the engine and the car but I just not like revving the crap out of something to get decent power out of it. 24mpg from a small engine doesn't sit well with me either.

b4z
04-28-05, 06:15 PM
Just wanted to add that '05 GTO production has been extended 2 weeks to meet demand. Production will now extend into July instead of June.

'05 orders are ending today.

For the money there is not a RWD vehicle available that offers the total package of the GTO.
JMHO.

Dave's V
04-28-05, 07:52 PM
I think they extended production because of the GTOs that were destroyed a couple weeks ago during a train wreck.

I love the powertrain of the GTO but that is about it. I don't like the exterior looks, lack of room and too few standard features for my taste. That is just my opinion.

Besides, putting the GTO name on an Aussie built car is not right no matter what is the Monaro's history. Must my opinion again.

Crozier
04-28-05, 08:32 PM
Besides, putting the GTO name on an Aussie built car is not right no matter what is the Monaro's history. Must my opinion again.


Doesn't the "GTO Name" belong on Italian Vehicles?

Vesicant
04-28-05, 08:41 PM
Not really- Ferrari (which you're implying) did it to specifiy that their car was built for/made for FIA GranTouring racing


GTO: Gran Turismo Omologato, which is Italian for Grand Touring Homologated. The name was originally applied to the famed 1962 Ferrari 250 GTO, and noted that enough of the vehicles had been built for FIA-sanctioned GT racing.