: New owner of a 1987 Brougham



FrankieSixxxgun
04-14-05, 11:15 AM
Alright, I just typed up a huge post, but it got lost when I tried to post it. Here's the summary:

I was going to introduce myself before asking questions. My name's Frank, and I just picked up a 1987 Brougham for $1500. It's white on white on white with blue carpeting. Straight body, minimal rust, good condition top, and 99% perfect interior. I was out shopping for a beater to drive while I fix my '67 Camaro, but this thing is seriously nice. I'm thinking about keeping it, even after the Camaro is back at 100%. Oh, and it has to be the longest car I've ever driven!

Now to the questions:

The hood ornament and trunk emblem are missing. Is there somewhere online I can buy them? I gotta have the crosshair on the hood.

The engine appears to have NO power. I'm talking like a 15 second 0-60. Is this normal for the 307ci Olds? Would swapping out the carb make a difference? Right now the previous owner has the timing too advanced and it pings, so I'm going to bring it back to stock timing this weekend.

The transmission kicks into OD at 45mph. Is this normal? It appears to shift up fine, but when I floor it, it only kicks down one gear. This normal? Sometimes when stopping it gets a little rough shifting down. I think I'm doing to drop the pan, replace the filter, and put all new fluid in it to see if that helps.

cmgrafmc
04-14-05, 09:14 PM
Welcome to the club, Frank. I'll address your questions in order:

Hood ornament and trunk emblems CAN be found on places like Ebay but do some research to see which years fit which cars. (I don't happen to know, I'm sorry.) Another place to try is your local TRUSTED body shop. They have access to these things, at a price of course. I can get all my badges and a hoody for about $100 and have them put on for some extra $. I don't feel comfortable messing with the badges on my vinyl roof or trunk.

About the engine...yeah, it's normal. 15 seconds isn't all too bad for these cars considering the small engine and near 5,000 lb. weight. The thing the 307 has going for it is torque. IF you're serious about keeping it (and you should be) you can swap an Olds 350, 403, 455 in without too much trouble. The tranny will mate up but you may want to have it rebuilt if you go with anything over 350. The pinging is a pretty common problem, too, and can be solved either the way you suggest or by simply burning 92 octane gas. I'd adjust the timing but I don't know how, so I use premium gas for now. Swapping the carb and all that can make a SMALL difference and I'm not sure if you already have the 5A heads or not. I think in '87 you might. Pick up a GM shop manual on Ebay for like $20 and it'll tell you everything, or search on these forums and you'll get soooooooooo much information you may not need the manual.

OD kicks in at about 25 for the '89, depending on engine load; I'm not sure about the '87. Yes, it's normal. In fact, for around town driving, use 3rd and save D for constant speeds over 35. OD makes a difference with your mileage, of course, so use it when practical. The kicking down you experience at WOT (wide open throttle--sorry if you already know this; it took me a week to figure it out!) to 3rd gear is pretty normal, sorry. You really won't get pinned to your seat with this engine and don't expect to pass anyone going faster than 70. LOL

The rough shifting is POSSIBLY (I think probably) a lockup solenoid. If, when slowing down at a stop sign, for example, you feel the engine lug down and it stops abruptly, that's a sure sign. Downshifting is usually harsher, right? I bet it's the solenoid. It costs under $100 to fix, I remember that much.

Congrats on the Brougham. To be honest, while the engines are weak, they're very strong and should last WELL over 100,000 miles. The trannys are okay, not great, but if you ever have to get it rebuilt it'll last a LONG time. They're a real pleasure to drive, as I'm sure you now know. Some basic care and the Brougham will provide years of comfort and cruising joy, plus some admiring glances. Or evil glares. I live in Portland, OR...Some of the looks I get at Portland State would make you think the Caddy burns trees and villagers for fuel.

Might be cheaper, though.

The Ape Man
04-14-05, 10:24 PM
Your car will feel slow even when everything is working. The payoff is in the fuel economy. Some things to check are: Throttle cable not opening carb secondaries all the way. Get an assistant for that. EGR valve not opening or passeges blocked. Might cause pinging. Leave things like the airpump and EGR in working condition on these. Check for any mis-routed or leaking vacuum lines. This engine has the most involved vacuum lines of just about any Cadillac. 1987 on up is good news for the 200-4R transmission.

FrankieSixxxgun
04-14-05, 11:50 PM
Wow, you guys are some seriously alright people! I've never owned a Caddy, mostly GM's, just never Caddy. This community seems, at least so far, way more supportive and involved than the Chevy guys. Thanks for the welcome!

Alright, I'm watching eBay for emblems. It looks like there's a lot on there that'll fit, so I should be able to get one. Same for the trunk emblem I'm missing.

Yeah, I guess 330lbs of torque seems like a lot to me because that's all my Camaro has and it really hauls some butt. Then again, my Camaro is <3000lbs, also 300hp, and has an agressively geared transmission and rear end. I can live with the slow response and acceleration just as long as that's how it's supposed to work. I don't wanna be the guy getting laughed at because he's got slowest Brougham in America :)

I noticed the OD kicking in low, but if you guys roll around in 3 instead of D, I can too. I noticed the car really struggles to get to 75mph. It must have some loooooooow gearing in the rear end.

The transmission problem you described is EXACTLY what's happening. Shifts up fine, it just seems to not want to shift down properly sometimes when stopping. It bogs the motor down and then BANG it drops into neutral all hard. I'll check my service manual about the solenoid and see if I can get one at the local shop. Is it something that's in the tranny or just on the side? If it's on the side, I'll return the filter and fluid I bought today.

An update on the knock, it seemed to pretty much disappear with lowered timing. The VECI label suggests timing the motor to 20 degrees at 1100rpm in park, but I noticed the timing doesn't advance at all when the RPMs increase. I thought this car had an HEI with vaccuum advance, but I guess not. Is there a timing advance in the car at all via the computer or something or is timing static? I just knocked it back to 12 degrees and it seems to run 87 octane just fine now with the slightest knock every now and then. I can always take it to 10 degrees if needed.

I also noticed that is has the most unbelievable vacuum line setup in the world. I ran my OBD-I GM diag tool through the system and it didn't report any EGR or thermactor errors, so they might all be okay. I had the air cleaner off today to set the timing, and the only problem there that I saw was that the boot to the PCV was split where it connects the pipe to the air cleaner. I didn't think that mattered much since it's just the PCV.

All in all, I really like this car, and probably will keep it for some time. I've got a nice 1965 Chevy 327 that might look good under the hood eventually. In fact, the only problem I have with it is the previous owner got it REALLY dirty. I think as a bonus, the dirt preserved the paint and top. I'm going to take it Saturday over to the local detail shop and let them do the ultra detail job on it for $100. They did my buddy's Ford, which was comparibly dirty, and it came back looking showroom quality. I'll get pics after I get it back and post them on here.

kmhebert
04-14-05, 11:53 PM
What's up Frank, congratulations on the Brougham. It's an awesome car, you'll like it more the more you drive it.

FrankieSixxxgun
04-14-05, 11:56 PM
You ain't kidding! I drove it around a lot today, and I really do like it. I've never owned a luxury car, but my roommate bought an '89 Towncar last month and has been letting me drive it around. So I got hooked, and had to have one. I got a killer deal on this one, so I figured why not. Compared to driving my Camaro, it really is a smooth ride.

FrankieSixxxgun
04-15-05, 12:01 AM
Oh, I just checked, that lockup solenoid is $29 and change from Advance Auto. Looks like I'll pick one up this weekend and throw it in. How hard can it be?

cmgrafmc
04-15-05, 03:17 AM
The only problem with going from and Olds engine to a Chevy is that I'm pretty sure the transmission won't match...I think I read that somewhere. That's why most people choose to stick with an Olds. Now, I'm not a really mechanically inclined fellow so I won't tackle much beyond some basic stuff and some electrical work; its sounds to me like you have some experience so you might have a better and cheaper time of putting in that Chevy engine and a different tranny. How many miles on it?

My mechanic recently put an Olds 350 in one of these and said there isn't a whole lot of improvement. He told me to just keep driving mine and enjoy what I have. I know it would cost me around $3k to put in a 403 or 455 Olds coz I can't do any of the work myself.

As for the solenoid, I have no idea what's involved. I had my transmission guy do it and I guess it's not hard to do. Let us know if it solves the problem! Have fun.

Big_Blue
04-15-05, 04:42 AM
Look at the site to change the TCC solenid.Different car but same tranny as ours.

http://www.montecarloss.com/TCC_Solenoid.html#Definition (http://www.montecarloss.com/TCC_Solenoid.html#Definition)

I did this job myself and it was very easy to do. The hardest part is dropping the pan while the car is only 14 inches off the ground but if you can get your car on a ramp it would be very easy. Also in the instructions he addes a Tranny drain plug. I did that as well since I drive back and forth to N.C. and I tend to drive down dirty roads alot and use 2nd while doing this for Fishing pleasure. I change my fluid twice in a 6 month period and on the 3rd time I do the filter change. I changed the 4th gear pressure switch since I was down there and they run off the same plug. Tranny works fine now.

Most important is to put the connections tight and route the wires back the same way. If its a lose connection you lock out switch might not work properly and your tranny fluid can get hotter then normal and you will get worst gas mileage

pimpin88
04-15-05, 09:03 AM
clean out the egr passages in the intake manifold. pull the carb and drill them out with a 3/8'' drill bit. they are probably full of carbon. this could stop the pinging if you havent done it yet. and it also helps for power. mine does 0-60 anywhere from about 10.5-12 seconds. its a 1988

FrankieSixxxgun
04-15-05, 10:32 AM
You guys are beyond helpful. I'm going to pick up the TCC and pressure switch today so I can throw this in this weekend while I swap the fluid. The '86 and '87 200-4R should be identical, right?

Yeah, I'm going to check for carbon buildup. You ever use Seafoam on these engines to clean them up? I hear the Mustang/Lincoln guys love it for the knocking the get on their 302 engines.

FrankieSixxxgun
04-15-05, 09:24 PM
Just got done replacing the transmission fluid, filter, and lockup solenoid. The car shifts like a dream now! It only took me about 2-3 hours to get that plus an oil change and cleanup done too, totally worth it.

So the car seems to run a little harder when it's cold vs. when it's hot. Could something that puts the car into closed loop with the computer be causing it to lose power? Also, I noticed there are few tiny rust holes in the pipe between the cat converter and the muffler. Could that be causing a lean condition and thus the knock?

The Ape Man
04-15-05, 09:39 PM
Just got done replacing the transmission fluid, filter, and lockup solenoid. The car shifts like a dream now! It only took me about 2-3 hours to get that plus an oil change and cleanup done too, totally worth it.

So the car seems to run a little harder when it's cold vs. when it's hot. Could something that puts the car into closed loop with the computer be causing it to lose power? Also, I noticed there are few tiny rust holes in the pipe between the cat converter and the muffler. Could that be causing a lean condition and thus the knock?

Check the carbonator to see if the secondaries are indeed working. They are locked out when cold by the choke linkage. You might feel a little more spring against the gas pedal when the choke locks things out.

A few rust holes should not be enough to lean out the mixture enough to cause detonation.

Glad to hear that you are enjoying your new boat. I used to have one car that all the cops looked for and a Cadillac too.

FrankieSixxxgun
04-15-05, 09:43 PM
Yeah, I was going to check the throttle linkage tomorrow after I get it back from the detail shop. I need to go in there and adjust the idle anyway. I accidently set it to 550rpm in park, not drive, so sometimes it stalls when sitting in gear :D My Camaro was the same way with the linkage when I bought it, so I turned that rod all the way in and took it for a ride. I think I still have a poop stain in those pants. :lol:

I am REALLY enjoying this thing, and I swear I'll enjoy it 20 times more when I pick it up tomorrow and it's close to showroom clean. The guy took really good care of this car, just never washed it!

davesdeville
04-15-05, 09:55 PM
The engine appears to have NO power. I'm talking like a 15 second 0-60.

Ahahahahahah! Your car is faster than my friends 96 Saturn SC1. That is damn funny.

ReagansRollsRoyce
04-16-05, 06:55 PM
Congrats Frankie, I have a white 1987 myself and love it. Don't get rid of it, you never know when having a Caddy will come in handy, and the stares, compliments, (or glowers from Prius-driving types) you get when driving it are great.

I can only speak to acceleration above, I have the 140 HP 307 and it does 0-60 in a little under 14 sec.

FrankieSixxxgun
04-16-05, 07:35 PM
Yeah, I really do love it now that I got it back from the detail shop today. They got it really close to new looking! The acceleration does suck, but that's not what it's for, so it's okay.

Here's a pic:
http://www.tamparacing.com/photopost/data/500/caddy_1024.jpg

sizanjdf
04-16-05, 07:38 PM
Hey frankie....I was needing some info on the early 67-69 or maybe 70 camaros that had the 302 in them, If you know anything or can point me somewhere to get more info Id appreciate it

FrankieSixxxgun
04-17-05, 04:33 AM
Hey frankie....I was needing some info on the early 67-69 or maybe 70 camaros that had the 302 in them, If you know anything or can point me somewhere to get more info Id appreciate it

What do you need to know? PM me, I'm pretty good with 1st gen Camaros. You may also want to check www.camaroz28.com, they have an excellent message board. For #'s decoding, check out www.nastyz28.com and www.mortec.com.

sizanjdf
04-17-05, 02:16 PM
I was wondering if you could tell me where to find some production #s...it seems like the z28s all had the 302 right???

cmgrafmc
04-17-05, 06:20 PM
Seems to me like you got a pretty good combination here: your sports car and your luxury sedan. I spent most of yesterday zipping around in a 1974 Corvette with a beefed up 350. I swear the speedometer is wrong because I COULDN'T have been doing 100 all that time. Anyway, after I put the Corvette away and drove back home in the Caddy, I felt almost numb. I was floating on a marshmellow. A huge, quiet, soft mashmellow. It made me appreciate the Caddy more even though I lament it's weak engine. You'll have fun, I'm sure.

BTW, do your opera lights work? =P

FrankieSixxxgun
04-17-05, 06:27 PM
Yup, the Camaro isn't really geared for top speed, more for drag racing, but it jumps up to 120 in about the time it takes the Caddy to get to highway speeds. I drove the Camaro around yesterday, and man, it really is night and day. The Camaro shakes, it's loud, it's fast, manual transmission, no A/C, etc... It really is nice to have that Caddy available now!

What're Opera lights?

FrankieSixxxgun
04-17-05, 06:29 PM
I was wondering if you could tell me where to find some production #s...it seems like the z28s all had the 302 right???

I was going to private message you, but it looks disabled. All 1st gen Z28's came with the high output 302 smallblock in them. That's what designated them as a Z28. In stock Camaros you could get an L6 or a 327, and the SS was a 350 in the first half of '67, and a 396 big block late '67 through '69.

cmgrafmc
04-17-05, 07:00 PM
Yup, the Camaro isn't really geared for top speed, more for drag racing, but it jumps up to 120 in about the time it takes the Caddy to get to highway speeds. I drove the Camaro around yesterday, and man, it really is night and day. The Camaro shakes, it's loud, it's fast, manual transmission, no A/C, etc... It really is nice to have that Caddy available now!

What're Opera lights?

Opera lights are the two white lights between your front and back doors on the exterior B pillar. They're supposed to come on when your headlights or parking lights are on. Most have stopped working because they're electro-luminescent and burn out rather quickly. They're nearly impossible to replace since nobody makes them any more. If yours don't work, check out the sticky thread at the top of the forum about retrofitting your lights if it's something you want to tackle.

FrankieSixxxgun
04-18-05, 03:24 PM
Opera lights are the two white lights between your front and back doors on the exterior B pillar. They're supposed to come on when your headlights or parking lights are on. Most have stopped working because they're electro-luminescent and burn out rather quickly. They're nearly impossible to replace since nobody makes them any more. If yours don't work, check out the sticky thread at the top of the forum about retrofitting your lights if it's something you want to tackle.

I didn't even notice I had lights out there! I don't know if they work, but I doubt it.

Leloz
04-18-05, 03:35 PM
Congratulations, that is a great looking Brougham! The poor acceleration is normal, my '82 Buick has the 307 in it and you can tell these cars were made for long trips.