: Check Engine light not lighting up



AllenPacla
04-13-05, 02:31 PM
I have just read the manual and was surprised to know that during start up, or when i turn the key to the "on" position, the "Check Engine" light should light up for a while like all the others, but mine doesn't. Does this mean that I will have to bring it to a specialist to check on it or is it something i can check myself? I am thinking that it could just be the bulb or whatever is behind that instrument panel that makes it light up that is the problem. Now, this is scary, because although I am not noticing anything wrong with the car, I am afraid that after I get the light fixed then it will be lighting up on me for the rest of the car's life. So far, I am happy with the way things are turning with the car compared to most owners here that have their "Check Engine" light lighting up like clockwork. Anyway, if there is a fix for this that i can do myself, I would be grateful to whoever it is as usual. Thanks

omermurat
04-13-05, 02:41 PM
If I were you I would leave it alone :)

The light in the instrument panel must be dead or "removed". Check the following link to find out how to remove your instrument panel;

http://www.angelfire.com/tx2/mannyyy/ipwriteup.html

AllenPacla
04-13-05, 05:39 PM
I went on to remove the instrument cluster assembly and checked the bulbs, and as it turn out, the bulb that is for the "Check Engine" light is busted. I went to replace the bulb, and lo and behold, the "Check Engine" light lit up when the the car is started and never went off again:banghead: . So, since i am at Autozone, why not have them read the code if there is. And there it is, two codes came out, one is P0411 and the other one is P0160(O2 sensor no 2) and the previous one has something to do with an incorrect flow in the Secondary Air Injection system. The question now is, what should I do? Should I continue using the car with these codes or probably just remove the bulb for the "Check Engine" light so it won't bother me again and just enjoy the ride. I didn't listen to Omermurat and now, I'm faced with the prospect of buying that O2 sensor which is very expensive and the other one which i don't know yet what to do with. But anyway, it's good that I had the light fix, because, who knows, the problem might escalate and create further problems if left unchecked. So, Catera Gurus, show me the path and guide me through this road i'm gonna travel. :(

omermurat
04-13-05, 06:16 PM
Secondary air flow is not that important for your car's health. All it does reducing the emission when the engine is cold, but the same thing can not be said for your O2 sensor problem. The engine continiously adjusts itself by the inputs from those O2 sensors.

For P0411 DTC read the below message that I posted a few days ago.

I had the same problem. The secondary air injection is the system that injects air in to the exhaust manifolds when the engine is cold in order to help burning not burned gas to reduce emissions and warm catalitic converters sooner to get them work faster. It's located in front of the left front wheel in the fender. It's nothing but an air pump like the ones in any vacuum cleaner. You need to make sure that the motor is fine, the switches, check valve etc.

In my case the check valve was bad and it was sending hot exhaust gases to the pump, and the water in the gas got accumulated in the pump and ruined it.

The new pump runs about $250, but same year BMW air pumps are actually the same ones only its electric connector is different. I used an BMW model for $160 and changed the rear cover where the connector located. It fit right in and has been running just fine for 6 months.

But you need to check the pump & check valve to make sure they are alright. If you need it I can send the procedure in pdf format.

For the O2 sensor, I remember reading a message about that. Simply pull the O2 sensors out, clean then by putting them in an injector cleaner solution overnight and you should be fine. Even if it doesn't work, it's worth to try.

Good luck :)

AllenPacla
04-13-05, 06:47 PM
Okay, now, where is this O2 sensor located so I can pull that piece of junk and clean it. I'll check that pump you are talking about. By the way, I decided to try and reset the system by disconnecting the cables, and voila, the "Check Engine" light turned off. I turned it on and off for a couple of times to make sure I didn't just busted up another bulb. I even drove it around the block for a few minutes and so far the "Check Engine" light remained off..... for now. I am crossing my fingers and toes on this one. I am hoping it would not come back and just decide to give me a break this time. Thanks Omermurat.

omermurat
04-13-05, 07:16 PM
Basically there are 4 O2 sensors. They are located at the netrance and exit of each catalitic converters.

I hate to tell you, but P0411 comes back after several cold start-ups, and you are very welcome :)

AllenPacla
04-13-05, 07:18 PM
And will you send me the pdf file for the pump that you are talking about as well. Thanks

omermurat
04-13-05, 09:42 PM
It should be in your inbox. :o)

AllenPacla
04-13-05, 11:16 PM
So far, no "Check Engine" light. Drove the car again this evening after about 4 hours. Tomorrow, i'll see again what's the verdict. I'm thinking that it may be residual reads by the car's computer since the bulb was busted for a long time. I am not sure about this, actually, I'm kinda hoping it's gone for now. Anyway, would disconnecting the air pump and the sensors be a solution in case it comes back again? Anyway, this weekend I'll be working on the headlights installing the HID retrofit i bought so i would be checking the pump while doing this since I am guessing it will be exposed well after removing the headlights from it's place. Thanks again Omermurat

AllenPacla
04-15-05, 08:31 AM
By the way, Omer, that O2 sensor in question (number 2 sensor in bank 2), do you know exactly where it is and what to look for to identify the thing? I am thinking of giving it a clean up and it might solve the problem. Thanks.

omermurat
04-15-05, 09:16 AM
I am not sure but I believe bank #2 is the driver side, and #2 O2 sensor should be the one after the Catalitic converter on the same side.

I'll take a look at the manual when I go home tonight and post it.

AllenPacla
04-15-05, 12:50 PM
And one more thing, I have been reading on the pdf file you sent me on how to troubleshoot the secondary air pump and most of the step requires the use of a scan tool. Is there a way to command the components of that secondary air pump to turn on without the use of a scan tool? Or should i buy a scan tool that it may be useful for future use? The pump, I can check if it's running by simply removing the hose and see if air is coming out, but the Air Solenoid valve, to see if there is vacuum, I am not sure how to get it to turn on and off when needed. Since you said you have repaired yours in the past, what did you do to accomplish all this tests? Thanks again pal.

omermurat
04-15-05, 01:51 PM
I had siply started from the air pump itself and that was the defective part. I removed the pump's relay and energized it manually to see if it's working and it didn't. As soon as I removed the pump out, I found out that it was full of water with exhaust smell. The pump was beyond repair, but how in the world that water had gotten in there?

Then I checked the check valve. I started the engine and disconnect the hose which comes from the check valve, there should be no exhaust pulses as it is supposed to be stopped by the check valve. But there was alot of gas coming out of it, and this is why I got all this water in the pump itself. I changed both pump and the valve, plroblem solved.

When I go home tonight, I'll post which relay you need to mess with.

omermurat
04-16-05, 11:23 PM
OK, the relay I've been talking about is in the rectangular box by the battery. It's called K12 and located closest to the front of the car (position 21).

Just pull that relay out and by using a piece of wire, apply 12v to the connectors. Just touch the briefly with that wire which is connected to the positive side of your battery (one of them is going to energize the pump) if the pump is OK you'll hear it running.

If it doesn't run after trying all connectors, check the check valve by removing the hose with the engine running. If you feel any pulses, I bet you your pump is full of water like mine. In that case you'll need a pump & a check valve. Similar year model BMW 5 series' pumps just fit like original by changing the rear cover only (connector plug is located on the back cover).

And sorry about the delay :o)

AllenPacla
04-17-05, 12:37 AM
It's fine, I have been figuring out as well which relay it is. I checked the manual and I was also guessing its the one you describe. Because in the manual it says that relay is for the Air pump, I just wasn't sure how many air pump the Catera has. Thanks a lot. I didn't have the time to work on it so the delay didn't matter.

AllenPacla
04-17-05, 01:34 AM
Hey, i checked the manual again, are you sure it's relay #21 and not #1?

omermurat
04-17-05, 10:58 AM
Per service manual it's called "position 21". Let me scan the page and send it to you. I should have done it yesterday.

omermurat
04-17-05, 11:08 AM
The file has been sent.

AllenPacla
04-17-05, 11:25 PM
Thanks a bunch.

jepcorp
05-29-05, 12:16 PM
Can one of you send me the references as to the location of the check valve and any other component for the AIR system is. I have the Check Engine LIght on and I hear the air pump cycle on when I turn the car on. All hoses are connected, but I am not that familiar with these valves. Any help would be greatly appreciated. You can reply to me here or at jepcorp2004@yahoo.com

omermurat
05-30-05, 02:51 PM
Can one of you send me the references as to the location of the check valve and any other component for the AIR system is. I have the Check Engine LIght on and I hear the air pump cycle on when I turn the car on. All hoses are connected, but I am not that familiar with these valves. Any help would be greatly appreciated. You can reply to me here or at jepcorp2004@yahoo.com

Hold on, I'll send them today sometime.. I am using another PC right now.:shhh:

omermurat
05-30-05, 05:22 PM
The file has been sent. Good luck.. :)

jeredenb
06-18-05, 11:22 AM
omermaut can you send me those instructions as well

dwayne
07-21-05, 10:28 PM
omermurat,

i am getting the P0411 code also. i found your thread via google search. it sounds like i have the same problem. could you send me the files you had listed for troubleshooting and repair also? thanks.

AllenPacla
07-22-05, 11:42 AM
I have been through this problem and likewise, i was helped by Omer, he sent me the trouble shooting guide and it helped me a lot. But the problem with the guide is it requires the use of the scanner to command the different components of the A.I.R. system to be checked thoroughly. I deviced a plan to pinpoint the culprit even without the scanner specially if it's established that the air pump is working. It's a little long to explain everything here so if anyone is interested, pm me your e-mail and i will send the steps and instructions to you.

dwayne
07-24-05, 09:03 AM
AllenPacla,

for some reason i cannot send you a pm. i keep getting told i do not have permission. you can forward the information to me at hartranfts@cfaith.com. thanks. dwayne



I have been through this problem and likewise, i was helped by Omer, he sent me the trouble shooting guide and it helped me a lot. But the problem with the guide is it requires the use of the scanner to command the different components of the A.I.R. system to be checked thoroughly. I deviced a plan to pinpoint the culprit even without the scanner specially if it's established that the air pump is working. It's a little long to explain everything here so if anyone is interested, pm me your e-mail and i will send the steps and instructions to you.

cad99
07-26-05, 03:02 PM
Omermurat, can you send me the pdf file with the procedures. Thanks. :)


Secondary air flow is not that important for your car's health. All it does reducing the emission when the engine is cold, but the same thing can not be said for your O2 sensor problem. The engine continiously adjusts itself by the inputs from those O2 sensors.

For P0411 DTC read the below message that I posted a few days ago.

I had the same problem. The secondary air injection is the system that injects air in to the exhaust manifolds when the engine is cold in order to help burning not burned gas to reduce emissions and warm catalitic converters sooner to get them work faster. It's located in front of the left front wheel in the fender. It's nothing but an air pump like the ones in any vacuum cleaner. You need to make sure that the motor is fine, the switches, check valve etc.

In my case the check valve was bad and it was sending hot exhaust gases to the pump, and the water in the gas got accumulated in the pump and ruined it.

The new pump runs about $250, but same year BMW air pumps are actually the same ones only its electric connector is different. I used an BMW model for $160 and changed the rear cover where the connector located. It fit right in and has been running just fine for 6 months.

But you need to check the pump & check valve to make sure they are alright. If you need it I can send the procedure in pdf format.

For the O2 sensor, I remember reading a message about that. Simply pull the O2 sensors out, clean then by putting them in an injector cleaner solution overnight and you should be fine. Even if it doesn't work, it's worth to try.

Good luck :)

omermurat
07-27-05, 10:15 AM
Omermurat, can you send me the pdf file with the procedures. Thanks. :)

What's your email?

cad99
07-28-05, 06:24 PM
etalle.3@gmail.com.

PRSPower
08-12-05, 01:43 PM
Omermurat, will you please send me the pdf file discussed on this thread. Thank you.

omermurat
08-12-05, 08:52 PM
cad99 & PRSPower,

The file has been sent..!
cad99, sorry for the delay.. :O)

jeredenb
08-18-05, 10:16 AM
Omermurat, can you please send me a copy of the PDF. I forgot my email in the last post...It is j.redenbaugh@verizon.net

Thanks,
John

omermurat
08-18-05, 01:12 PM
It's been sent.

Good luck :)

valle1018
09-20-05, 10:32 AM
Omermurat and AllenPacla,

I am getting the code P0411 code as well.
Can you please send me your procedures to fix this problem?

Thank you.

cesar.valle@asi.com

omermurat
09-20-05, 10:52 AM
The file has been sent. Good luck

stonecoldsteele
09-25-05, 02:20 PM
[B][I]Can someone send me the same file? My check engine light has came on and it is the same incorrect air flow....It was supposed to have been fixed before I got the car but I think they just cleared the code so it could pass inspection....In my state if the check engine light is on they will not inspect it so i need to find a fix for it...Thanks...stonecoldsteele@bellsouth.net

omermurat
09-26-05, 01:04 AM
The file has been sent. Good luck.

Skip Robbins
10-23-05, 06:57 PM
omermurat:

Would you please send me a copy of your pdf file RE: the secondary air injection pump / P0411 procedure. Thanks. Please email to:

omay@att.net
:cool2:

aa2ac
11-11-05, 03:23 PM
catera healer..
Would you send me the pdf file on the P 0411 repair?
Tnx
aa2ac@srscales.com

AllenPacla
11-11-05, 08:30 PM
I guess i have to make this post since I had the problem before and was able to figure it out with Omermurat's help. First thing to remember is that the Secondary Air injection system is initialized only during cold starts, so once the engine is warm enough it doesn't have to run. With the help of Omer's pdf file, one can easily identify the different parts that makes up the whole system. The only problem is that, in the pdf file, almost always, a scan tool is required to diagnose exactly which part is faulty. But i found a way to do it manually, but just like i said, it will require several cold starts which means you will be able to accomplish the complete diagnostics in probably 3 days of cold starting the car. The first thing you have to establish is if the air pump is okay. If you don't hear it operate during a cold start then it could be busted or probably just the relay. If you get direct power to the air pump and it runs, then it could be the relay that is not working. If you can establish that the pump runs every cold start, then you will have to move on to the other parts of the system. There are two valves in the system, one is the bell shaped aluminum valve located just before the pipes that leads to the exhaust and the other is made of plastic. If I'm not mistaken, the plastic one is called the vacuum cut-off valve. Anyway, the plastic valve opens and closes as the system is initialized. And it opens up with the use of vacuum pressure. If you look at it, there is a rubber pipe directly connected on top of it, that's the vacuum hose which connects to the control solenoid. When the system initializes, the control solenoid will let vacuum pressure through the hose and will cause the valve to open, letting air coming from the air pump through. Now, we get the dreaded engine light code because there is not enough air or there is no air that is passing through the system. Even though the air pump is running, if the valve is not going to open, air won't get through. So, to check which one among the two is faulty (Control Solenoid or the Valve), try directly connecting the vacuum hose coming from the engine into the plastic valve and try one of your cold starts and see if air will get through the valve. But of course, you will have to disconnect the big hose that connects to the other end of the valve, the one that leads to the exhaust. If after directly connecting a vacuum hose to the valve, you felt pressurized air is passing through then it should be working, try removing the vacuum hose and see if it closes back. After determining that valve is functioning properly, it is now safe to assume that the control solenoid is the faulty one. You can actually feel the solenoid clicking once the system is initialized during one of those cold starts. If the plastic valve is faulty, try replacing it first because it's cheaper and see if it will solve the problem. If replacing it will not solve the problem, then replace the solenoid. This is a long read i know, but i hope that it will give you guys an idea on how to diagnose the problem without using a scan tool. By the way, even if the aluminum check valve that i was talking about is not closing really tight, you don't have to worry about it because the plastic valve is enough to seal the system and prevent back flow of exhaust air into the air pump. Good luck

rpgibbs
08-22-06, 06:17 AM
To Omermurat,

I have a 2000 Sport that I am getting an error code P0411 and have seen that you have a pdf file about how to diagnose the problem. I would appreciate your sending this file to me (email address below) or if anyone else has the pdf file I would appreciate it if you would forward it to me. Thanks.

rpgibbs@hotmail.com

AllenPacla
08-23-06, 02:58 AM
You will need a Code reader that is used by GM technicians if you want to use the pdf file that Omer has. And not so many have that Code reader (which also sends commands to the cars computer) I just can't remember what it's called exactly. Anyway, I was able to diagnose mine when i had the problem by plainly using patience and a little of understanding how the system works. I guess i posted how I did it in this thread. You just follow what it says. Good luck

R3dl3g
03-29-07, 09:56 AM
I have a check engine light on and the code is 0411. I thought it would be the idle air control valve or mass air flow sensor but now Im in doubt after reading this post. Sounds like a check valve from what I have read. If anyone has that pdf file that explains this problem a little more I would greatly appreciate it. Sgtdriggs@hotmail.com

moerome
03-29-07, 11:22 AM
I'd like to get a copy of the PDF as well if you don't mind. Thanks a mil.

moerome@bellsouth.net

brohar
03-02-09, 09:25 PM
I have the same code P0411 as well as some engine misfire codes. Car sounds funny. Can you give me any help? I dont work on cars usually but im about to start.

Matera97
11-07-10, 06:30 PM
I'm gonna bump this since I'm getting the same DTC with CEL. Any know the exact location of the valve and selenoid in the engine bay?

USEDCAT
11-10-10, 01:14 PM
I'm gonna bump this since I'm getting the same DTC with CEL. Any know the exact location of the valve and selenoid in the engine bay?
Matera97, people in the UK just disconnect the SAI motor by disconnecting the electrical connection to the motor. The motor is located near front left if you trace the air hose from the control valve.

http://i802.photobucket.com/albums/yy301/Happy2iam/Catera%20Omega%202001/FrontLeftWtrAuxPump_0804.jpg

Do not disconnect the relay as it will set DTC but disconnecting the SAI motor does not do anything.

This system works on cold starts to heat up O2s faster as well as on extended idles like stop lights, etc. Primary function is Emission control in those scenarios.

Good luck