: Major problems at 80K miles. Is this normal?
04-11-05, 10:38 PM
My 99 Deville with 82K miles started experiencing a horrible hesitation this morning on my way to work, so I dropped it at the dealership. I'm still in shock from what they told me. Here's the list of what it "NEEDS":
Diagnostic, Plugs and Wires - $607
Fuel Induction Service - $150
Replace Torque converter, TCC solenoid, Drive sprocket support seal - $1695
Park/Neutral switch, Fluid pressure Switch - $455
Trans Flush - $160
Replace Crank sensors, reprogram pcm - $419
Reseal Lower Crankcase - $2269
Brake Flush - $120
Power Steering fluid flush - $100
I know about the Crankcase oil leak and I've already opened a case with Cadillace Customer Service. But it seems like there is a lot of stuff failing that shouldn't at 80k miles. Any input/advice is well appreciated.
04-11-05, 11:01 PM
Looks like they saw you coming.....
What part of all that work is supposed to address the hesitation....??? Plugs and wires do not just fail suddenly and start a sudden hesitation typically.
Seems like a better diagnosis is in order instead of throwing the kitchen sink at it.
Did you even know that you had an oil leak before you took it in and found that the "case halfs needed sealing"...???
Seems like they just handed you a list of every feel good thing in existence to have done on the car.
Were you seeing a check engine light or any codes prior to this..???
What exactly is a "fuel induction service" for 150
If the hesitation just started suddenly I would expect something like a fuel pump or the fuel pressure regulator rather than any thing listed.
How did the power steering flush get on the list...???....LOL
The car should not need any of the mentioned items at 80K...not even 100K.
04-11-05, 11:08 PM
that is really shady of them telling you all that is needed before you even get a diagnostic. you should only need one of those things on that list
I'm trippin on the drive sprocket support seal...wtf? I may be a little thick sometimes but how the hell can you tell the seals bad till you take the trans apart?
Replace the crank sensors for $419???? What if the engine is already out, supposedly to do the LCC seal...Jeezis!
I'd have 2 words for the guy...and they wouldn't be Merry Christmas! :sneaky:
04-11-05, 11:29 PM
That's so far off the charts that Stephen Hawking couldn't find it. Probably sounds like it would be cheaper and better to just buy a new car, huh? Exactly what they want you to think. No, those problems are not normal and yes, they've got about 6 guys doing their damndest to bend you over the toolbox. Run away from that place as fast as you can and don't look back.
So I've slammed them, now it's your turn. Have you maintained the car the way it is supposed to be maintained?
04-11-05, 11:37 PM
what the F***? You need to get the heck out of there. http://cadillacforums.com/forums/images/smilies/yup.gif
Fuel induction service - spray throttle body with cleaner, scrub with toothbrush.
TB spray cleaner - $0.23, labor - 10 minutes ($6)
Look on the customers face when they get a bill for $150 for something they could've done... Priceless. http://cadillacforums.com/forums/images/smilies/coco.gif
04-11-05, 11:54 PM
My dealership does the same thing... take it in for a recall and you get a list for more $$$ than the car's worth...
And, by the way, when you get the recall for a s/s fuel rail (unless your car has it now) don't let them touch it - go with the old unit until you burn it up. I've been fighting what they did for a couple of months... bottom line, buy it with about 20K and trade it in within two years, or before 50K. Find a way to write these miles off and get a new ride in 24 months!
Be very careful how much $$$ you pour into this car - the resale value drops very quickly - better to pay the maint. cost up front and get rid of it sooner than later. Just my experience, your mileage may vary.
04-12-05, 04:37 AM
sheeeshh.....run like hell!
Is this even legal for them to do that??? Imagine all those people who don't know any better and just go ahead with the so called 'repairs'??!?
This really pisses me off.......
Although I don't totally agree with 1996deville about buy at 20k miles and sell at 50k, I know where he's comin from. I do agree that its certainly not worth dropping 10,000 bucks into a 99 deville.
I bet you'll have the car back running good for less than a 1000, if not much less. Post back the DTC codes, look through this forum. It may take a little more time but it'll be well worth it.
04-12-05, 10:16 AM
Let me add a little more info. It was late when I posted the original, and needless to say, it was not a good day. The service engine light did come on when it started the hesitation. They did a "21 point diagnostic inspection" and that is how they turned all this up.
I also knew about the oil leak, and knew what the problem was going to be and already had a case open with cadillac on that. Cadillac customer service and another dealer both claim it's not a known problem and they've never seen it before.
How would I get the diagnostic codes? Is there an easy way?
Seems to me, I should just buy the plugs and plug wires, and just go do that myself and go from there, most likely to another dealer.
I would definitely find another dealer. If your car is hesitating while driving, and the dealer tells you you need to flush out the brake fluid, there's definitely something wrong with them. Before you completely write them off however, go back in there, wehn there are lots of other customers around, and see if you can get them to openly explain why a brake fluid flush is needed to fix and engine hesitation problem. I'm sure this little conversation will get the attention of other customers there. This dealer must think your are total idiot, if they expect you to believe this crap. I mean, flushing the power steering fluid...why? It has absolutely nothing to do with the engine, except the P/S switch, which can be used to control idle....whcih is not when the problem happens anyway. I would suggest just doing the plugs and wires yourself. With the right tools, it's actually not to hard, and can be done within aout 2 1/2 hours. Also, just for future reference, I would suggest getting a factory service manual also. Good Luck with your car. :thumbsup:
04-12-05, 11:10 AM
Another update.... I found some of the DTC codes on the notes from the dealer.
And cadillac customer service still denies how widespread the crankcase seal problem is.
04-12-05, 11:14 AM
Not sure if it's the same on your Deville but on my Seville you hold down the off and warmer buttons on your climate control for about 2 seconds and you'll see your message center go into a diagnostic mode. Have a piece of paper and pen ready and write down the codes as they show up. The codes will be something like PO36, PO61, SO43 and so on.
Once you have all the codes post the results here and some of these other fellas will help you out with the specifics of those codes.
04-12-05, 11:32 AM
If I'm not mistaken this is what the codes are telling you,
PO300 Engine misfire detected
PO741 TCC system stuck off
PO1527 Transmission range to pressure switch correlation
PO1599 Engine stall or near stall
If I'm not mistaken the TCC system is your torque converter clutch.
I would suspect there are some other P codes that the dealer didn't mention or write down, the code or codes that will help identify why the engine misfired.
I hope this is accurate information that I've given you and hope it helps.
I believe you can take car of your engine misfire problem for a lot less than quoted by the dealer but that TCC code could be a much more serious problem. I don't know that to be fact because there could be some sensor or solenoid that may be the problem. One of the resident experts will help you out much more than myself. I just happened to be here at the moment and had the time to at least help out a little.
Good luck, you'll get a lot of help here and you can trust the opinions that you receive, bbob has helped myself and was spot on with all of his comments/thoughts.
04-12-05, 11:39 AM
Being a somewhat intelligent individual, I just chaulked the brake flush, ps flush, etc... to routine maintenance that they were telling me I should have done. I really don't care about that at this point. The total of that work amounts to about $500 and the other stuff is somewhere in the ballpark of $5500. The latter is the work they claim needs done asap. It will save a chunk of money to have the torque converter and the oil leak taken care of at the same time (about 11 hours of labor savings). I have spoken to Cadillac who is issuing me a Owner Loyalty certificate to get $ off any new GM purchase or lease on top of any incentives they have going on. Cadillac customer support has also spoken to the dealership and the dealership is willing to work with me. I'm currently waiting for an email with prices on what actually needs done and what kind of deal they can cut me.
04-12-05, 11:45 AM
Curious, did you get the car back or does the dealer have the car and if so, is it somewhat torn apart at this time.
04-12-05, 11:54 AM
The dealer still has the car, but it is not torn apart. I don't think they really had to tear anything apart to diagnose it. I'm not just waiting for an email from them to find out what kind of deal they can work me.
Sounds like these guy are on a fishing expedition. Lets face it, many people just shrug their shoulders and write the check. I guess they figure it never hurts to throw the bait out and see how much you'll swallow.
$607 for plugs and wires, that's highway robbery, and they don't even use a gun. Plugs and wires (OEM wires) from rockauto or gmpartsdirect will cost about $150. That leaves $450 labor! Man I am in the wrong buisness. I wish I could find people willing to pay me 1/2 of that to do plugs and wires.
04-12-05, 12:14 PM
I searched TCC problems on this forum and it appears that a lot of people ignore the PO741 and continue to drive the car and for many miles. From reading it sounds like the torque converter is not engaging so you essentially lose overdrive, I'm sure it could be doing many other things but all in all, I read alot of posts where people have been driving their car for years and thousands of miles while ignoring that code.
I would think about getting the misfire repaired and see how it drives. Sounds like you had a trans leak that you were dealing with so if your misfire was fixed, you would be back to where you were prior to taking your car to the dealer. If it was me, I would either change the plugs and wires myself or get an estimate from a local repair facility and then take it there assuming you received a quote from $150-$200. Like I said, after the misfire is repaired, drive the car and then make your final decisions.
Then again, if money is not a concern, let the dealer get after it or, just buy a new car. Of course you know they won't give you anything for your car as it is which is kind of a shame, that's car business for you....
04-12-05, 12:46 PM
Also read the tech archive regarding "transmission flush," and see if you really want it done to your car.
Why are dealers now doing this? Why isn't GM doing something about it?
04-12-05, 01:31 PM
That reminds me, I once took my older Eldorado in for a transmission service, drain/flush and fill. Can't remember if it was a flush, sort of remember it just being drained. It was a transmission shop and apparantly that is all they did, transmissions. The fella backs my car out of the garage and gets out, say's there you go, have a good day. I drive away and it doesn't shift out of 1st gear. I go back and the fella gets real mad and say's, you brought the car to me like that and I told him the car never ever had a problem with the transmission.
I don't believe we resolved the problem righ then and there, I think he may have said maybe a peice of dirt got stuck in it and to drive it until the dirt passes. Obviously I was quite mad when I left, after about 1 mile driving in first gear around 15-20 miles an hour I got mad and stomped on it to see if I could force it into second gear. To my delight it shifted into second gear and was okay after that. That taught me a lesson though, every time I take my car in fro any kind of service, I tell them to drive the car so they know that everything is working properly so in the event they screw something up, they can't say I brought it to them like that!
04-12-05, 01:33 PM
The fuel induction service, as I was told by the dealer... They disconnect the fuel line and squirt pressurized fuel injector cleaner into and through the fuel injectors... I told them no and would just buy a bottle of STP fuel injection cleaner for $2.99....
Also, I'd ask them what your incentive would be in buying another GM car if thats what they're steering you towards if thier cars need $6000+ in work at only 80k miles... I hate dealerships, they are the current version of pirates.
04-12-05, 03:31 PM
Many potential causes for a misfire, but some of the obvious ones are real easy to check. Although it couldn't hurt to replace the plugs and wires, just check the coils first to see theyre not the problem. (its a 3 minute job)
Here's a summary thread of my work chasing down a P0300 (it has details on checking the coils):
I did a plug and wire change, heres a summary of the work included, tools needed and costs.....total cost for me was around 100 bucks using AC Delco OEM parts:
These are easy fixes and can save you almost $1000. (dealer fixed my coils for 350$ once, i did the same for $28) (dealer quote on plug and wire change was around 550-$600, I did the same for $100)
I From reading it sounds like the torque converter is not engaging so you essentially lose overdrive,
You didn't loose overdrive. You just lost the torque converter lock up so it now slips a little over 41 MPH when it used to be locked. You can continue to drive it without any problems. You will loose perhaps 1 MPG.
04-12-05, 05:55 PM
That "list" as supplied buy the stealer almost made me loose my Famous Star.
Bunch of turkeys!!
04-14-05, 06:13 PM
My jaw also fell open at the quote for $607 for "diagnostic, plugs and wires!" *lol* If you subtract the $200 for new plugs, wires and the labor involved, that leaves $407 for "diagnostic." Are they talking about the diagnostic time already spent? Or do they mean the time they intend to spend on further diagnosis during the course of these repairs? Either way, it's a rip off. The stories I read on here concerning the wild yarns that dealership service departments feed to their customers is always a source of entertainment. The Cadillac dealer here in my town is no different. They have screwed everyone in town at one time or another. If you are mechanically inclined, invest in some good tools and the factory service manual and become a supporting member of this forum. It is money well spent. You will not only save a fortune in repair costs but you will have the satisfaction of knowing the work was done correctly. That would be my advice. All of the items on your list are either unecessary, or a way over priced. The learned minds on this forum can help you find and fix any problem you have with your car. If you just don't want to be bothered with doing repairs yourself, then trade it in on a new car with an extended, bumper-to-bumper warranty.
04-14-05, 07:11 PM
It never ceases to amaze me how someone in business feels they have something to gain by abusing their customers.