: Unsprung Weight Reduction: 09-13 Forged Aluminum Knuckle?



FuzzyLogic
09-19-13, 06:54 PM
Hey,

So, we have cast-iron knuckles. They weigh a LOT.

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/03-08-Cadillac-CTS-CTS-V-OEM-LH-Spindle-w-Hub-Assembly-/00/s/NzU4WDEwMTA=/$(KGrHqFHJBEFBbZL2j4VBQ,,15(48g~~60_57.JPG

After talking to the lead designer at Speed Tech Performance, he recommended that I try installing the forged aluminum spindles from a 2009-2013 CTS-V on my car (which might require purchasing second generation upper control arms, since they use a threaded bolt to hold the upright in place), or contacting LG Motorsports to see if they might consider fabricating them for us.

What do you guys think? About 10 pounds less unsprung weight on the front wheels, plus potentially more room for larger wheels. Anyone know why this isn't possible, or why we shouldn't be pursuing this already?

http://www.factoryoemparts.com/inventory/63_01.jpg

Naf
09-20-13, 12:42 PM
U have me interested, i will call luke and see how much the parts will set me back then if the price isnt too much i will get the parts and try ur idea out

Junior1
09-20-13, 01:53 PM
Less (weight) = More (speed)

in my book...

FuzzyLogic
09-20-13, 02:08 PM
Apparently they're $150 on eBay. My primary concern is the lower control arm through-hole. These spindles are almost certainly shorter than the V1 and will put the upper control arms in a good place for those of us that are lowered.

barrok69
09-20-13, 02:40 PM
One thing to keep in mind will be the position of the hub face relative to the iron one. If there are any changes in that area (thickness) x,y,z, position it will alter the position of the front wheel potentially making them stick out more or get sucked into the wheel well more due to differences in offset between V1 and V2 wheels.

Another place to look into is the hub face position relative to lower control arm balljoint. This could change the camber curve during suspension loading, for better or worse.

If everything checks out this would be an awesome mod with an OEM tested part.

I'm assuming that the hub to knuckle bolt pattern is the same as ours?

FuzzyLogic
09-20-13, 03:23 PM
Another option would be to provide a shop with one of our uprights and ask them to build a replica using forged 7075 aluminum. With a little extra curve and an inch less height, if possible.

barrok69
09-20-13, 04:44 PM
Another option would be to provide a shop with one of our uprights and ask them to build a replica using forged 7075 aluminum. With a little extra curve and an inch less height, if possible.

I think your other option is pretty much not feasible. If you could amortize the cost of a $1million dollar tool to be able to forge these, I'm not sure that even if you had 100 people interested would be willing to pay $10,000 per upright + the cost of the material and manufacturing of parts. lol
Also, Since you are using a different material you can't use the same shape as the cast iron ones as the material strength properties are vastly different and would definitely fail. Aluminum needs to be much thicker in some of the sections to carry the same stress levels as the Cast iron. so add another few thousand to that price to hire an engineering firm to do FEA work for you while they redesign the upright from scratch :)

Also what shocks would you use if you changed the height? The travel/valving would be all wrong.

Just something I've noticed... With all the money you've put or planning on putting into your V1 you could of had a V2 and then some, which arguably is a better performing vehicle all around especially given the shock technology it has and the easy bolt on 650rwhp mods available for it, better diff, trans... etc etc... the list is too long.

I love my V1 for it's looks. the interior sucks and the driveline issues are quite bullshit :) But I'll continue driving it living with the imperfections until they push me to something else.
I love modding cars, but it gets to a point where you want to mod the car to the level and beyond of the next gen car that exists for only 12k (used) more than what your current car is worth seems ...futile. Just my 0.02

----------

A quick and relatively easy weight save would be to convert to 5lug hubs and wheels.
Another option is you could also convert to electronic park brake, eliminating the need for internal shoes, cable, and footbrake assembly.

BradCTSV
09-21-13, 12:12 AM
Interestingly I called a guy who had a Mallet V for sale and he said the spindles were different which allow a 265 tire up front on a Mallet 9" custom front wheel. Is anyone familiar with this spindle? For those that have the Creative Steel trailing arm which easily allows a 295+ rear tire, it would be great to stuff a wider tire/wheel up front.

To Barrok's point, I just installed Recaro Speed leather seats which are great. To address the suspension I did Bilstein specially valved coilovers which are amazing along with the Creative Steel 8.8. I know the HP will need to be addressed but if I can figure out if the LS7 500hp 427ci will pass smog in California, this would be a great project. Sorry to go off topic but just some ideas for dedicated V1 fans......

Naf
09-21-13, 11:09 AM
Mallet cuts and rewelds their spindles.

I found these parts for 2800 with the full setup on ebay...

A bit rich for my blood...

AAIIIC
09-21-13, 01:24 PM
A bit rich for my blood...
OK, who hijacked Naf's account? There's no way he would ever post those words! :p

Naf
09-21-13, 03:55 PM
Dudei have a wife and son...

Have to tone down my spendin...

rand49er
09-22-13, 08:58 AM
Ten pounds is a bunch.

Selecting certain tires and certain wheels, I'd think you might be able to come close to that (though probably with compromises).

Doing all of it (i.e. getting a 20-lb reduction in unsprung weight) would seem to have the capability to really change the handling dynamics especially for the track junkie.

Naf
09-22-13, 09:22 AM
the shocks could give you the same savings...

I know for sure my new shocks weigh much less than stock...

I also think its a lot of work gettin the new arm to fit our rides, not to mention you will need a new sway bar end link...

FuzzyLogic
09-22-13, 11:40 AM
the shocks could give you the same savings...

I know for sure my new shocks weigh much less than stock...

Not really. As I noted here (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/2004-2007-cadillac-cts-v-performance/212441-weight-reduction-checklist-5.html#post3310601), the KW Variant 3 weighs about a pound and a half less than the FG2. Add Team Dynamics or Forgestar F14 wheels to that (22 or 24.1/24.7 lbs per wheel, versus 25 lbs stock), and you're doing a little better. But then you have to take that weight back because of the wider tires.

The important thing to remember is that suspension components behave as both sprung and unsprung weight. For simplicity, most people assume a 50/50 distribution. If you're anal-retentive, the ratio depends on the the distribution of mass along the length of the component (which is rarely uniform).

Naf
09-22-13, 02:55 PM
Fair, i am runnin 3 pc hre wheels with full ti fasteners.

Also runnin hollowed out spacers for i missed the offset by 3/8 of an inch all around the car

I asked luke for the parts so lets see what comes of this idea

Naf
09-24-13, 02:51 PM
Parts on order i will have them in a weeks time them start to fiddle and see how the difference helps the wheel movement

Naf
10-03-13, 01:49 PM
Parts for the right side arrived. All i can say is wow they feel light...

Will do a weight comparison and try it out on the car...

Will keep you posted

xbladr
10-04-13, 11:18 AM
Awesome Naf keep us posted

BradCTSV
10-05-13, 02:00 PM
Naf- I look forward to hearing how this works for you!

UnsafeAtAnySpd
10-05-13, 06:36 PM
Although I would LOVE for this to work, I'm not going to hold my breath. It would be too convenient for it to work out for us. :D

dmax/04v
10-05-13, 07:00 PM
After all the mod hell we go through with these cars, I think we're due for one gimmie. Just one....

Naf
10-06-13, 03:39 AM
Upon initial inspection, it looks like the upper arm mount is plug and play. I noticed the same holes in roughly the same location. I weighed the knuckle and it came in at 5.3kg. I forgot to weigh the upper arm mount but will weigh it when i get the other side later on.

Will weigh the stock knuckle once i have it removed from the car.

Things you will need to buy from Luke are #1, #9, and #10 thus far.

I will update you all once i know which other parts you will need...

Naf
10-06-13, 09:49 AM
I weighed the original knuckle and it came in at 5.950kg, thats 650g heavier than the new one...Talk about diminishing returns. You need to drop about a grand for two pounds of weight...

Have to order the lower arm as well to fit the new knuckle.

As a dry fit, i have positive camber, but it all depends if the new lower arm sticks out more than the OEM. Also the new upper arm sweeps the top of the knuckle about an inch backwards givin it more negative caster.

So before you go for this, you need to order the upper arm, knuckle, new V2 calipers, and lower arm. Unless you are plannin to upgrade to the new V2, i wouldnt recommend this upgrade...

FuzzyLogic
10-06-13, 10:28 AM
If the CTS-V and CTS control arms are the same, we should be able to pick up all three pieces for about $300 per side (1.43 lbs reduction per side, assuming the arms are the same weight). Out of curiosity, did you only get the knuckle, or did you order the control arms as well? If you didn't get the latter, I'll look into ordering used pieces and do some test fitting of my own.

Naf
10-06-13, 12:29 PM
I ordered the upper unit and knuckle. Didn't think i would need the lower arm as well.

Luke is supplyin me all the parts as i dont trust used critical ones... U never know if they are bent

BradCTSV
10-07-13, 02:10 AM
I'm curious to know whether there would be more clearance from the inner side of our wheels. My thought would be to run a larger front wheel with more backspace/offset.

Naf
10-07-13, 02:51 AM
I am already running a spacer on my wheels for i forgot to add it to my new offset. I am also runnin the GMPP longer studs so i am not too worried about pushing it out...

I am a little worried about the caster being further back, it may interfere with the steering or upward movement. Will have to wait another week for the part to arrive so i may fully try everythin out.

The idea is sound, and you will have a slight issue with the rear "horizontal" bolt, mine was tight during tightening, but the others went in with no issues...

Naf
10-12-13, 01:26 AM
Luke shipped my missin parts out yesterday so about a week from now we will all see if this mod is possible

Naf
10-20-13, 05:22 AM
I received the part to complete this mod.

First problem, you need a 18mm spacer for the rear bolt to be snug. Am havin my machine shop create two for me. The problem with a standard spacer is it may slip when tightened down. You need to create grip notches so when you tighten it down it holds snugly and doesnt move under pressure...

Second problem, the sway bar end links may need to be changed for instead of holdin onto the bottom arm it holds onto the knuckle. Will see how much longer they need to be...

The shock is pressed back a bit as well though i dont see that as a problem. But its a concern that should be noted...

The new lower arm is 49mm higher for the bushings which may allow a lower stance with no negative effect on the arm position.

Will report my findings as they come to light

FuzzyLogic
10-20-13, 07:58 AM
Can you provide a picture of the end link issue? That should be the easiest to solve, given the wide selection of aftermarket parts.

I'm mostly concerned about "pressing back" the shock. What do you mean? Are you saying that the mounting points are located further inboard?

Naf
10-20-13, 12:42 PM
I am sayin the shock mounts are further back than stock. Maybe because of the needed spacer it felt like it was pushed backwards.

The spacer is done. Am makin gear like notches so it locks in place. Pix will come tomorro promise

FuzzyLogic
10-20-13, 01:29 PM
Would you be willing to make 8-10 sets of spacers, assuming this thing pans out? Because I can probably name that many forum members who would be eager to lose 1-2 lbs of unsprung weight per side, potentially be able to run bigger wheels, and have better lowered geometry. I'll contact Revshift and see what they say about making bushings for this application. Of course, it's possible that the existing ones will fit--only time will tell.

Naf
10-21-13, 12:12 AM
The end link will be a problem. Thought about it last night.

With the end link now tied to the knuckle i do not know how it turns and works...

FuzzyLogic
10-21-13, 01:44 AM
It looks like we might have to use a straight (or via a S-curve) end link to go into the knuckle. Something like the Energy Suspension 9-8121 (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ens-9-8121r)R might work. Or there may be a simpler solution, like tapping two bolt holes for a piece of angle iron and drilling a hole in the upright section to accept a standard sway bar end link.

http://d3groupinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/D3-CTS-V-Sway-Bars-07.jpg
http://a248.e.akamai.net/origin-cdn.volusion.com/pthex.zxfye/v/vspfiles/photos/CTSV-HPE-Sways-2.jpg

Naf
10-21-13, 01:55 AM
I saw those pics as well...

Just need to figure out how it all works. I think there is a bit of tilting and slightly twistin involved. Thus the reason for the long end link.

I will be updatin you today in a about 4-5 hrs after i try and install all the parts...

xbladr
10-21-13, 10:40 PM
Cant wait for the info here great work guys

Naf
10-23-13, 08:51 AM
Its a no go!

Shock is tilted too far back

The knuckle wont go in for the sway bar touches it

And there is no way to bolt the end link to the suspension...

If you wanna give it a try pm me for the parts and i will sell them to ya

FuzzyLogic
10-23-13, 10:36 AM
Wonderful. I already have a spindle and control arm coming in the mail. I'll take a look at it.

Naf
10-23-13, 02:22 PM
The geometry is all wrong. On the new cars the lower arm is more forward. Maybe 18mm

Also the sway bar has to be changed for it sticks out the wrong way.

Which side did u get fuzzy?

FuzzyLogic
10-23-13, 06:25 PM
The geometry is all wrong. On the new cars the lower arm is more forward. Maybe 18mm

Also the sway bar has to be changed for it sticks out the wrong way.

Which side did u get fuzzy?

Passenger side.

Naf
10-24-13, 12:22 AM
Hahahaha

We both must have been scared to mess with the drivers side...

If you want this to maybe work you will need to drop 3 grand on the front under carriage. It may bolt in it may not. But u will have two wins

One u get an all alu carriage instead of steel
Two no one else is gonna drop that kind of coin for a few lb so u will be the only one

liqidvenom
10-26-13, 09:04 AM
I think your other option is pretty much not feasible. If you could amortize the cost of a $1million dollar tool to be able to forge these, I'm not sure that even if you had 100 people interested would be willing to pay $10,000 per upright + the cost of the material and manufacturing of parts. lol
Also, Since you are using a different material you can't use the same shape as the cast iron ones as the material strength properties are vastly different and would definitely fail. Aluminum needs to be much thicker in some of the sections to carry the same stress levels as the Cast iron. so add another few thousand to that price to hire an engineering firm to do FEA work for you while they redesign the upright from scratch :)

Also what shocks would you use if you changed the height? The travel/valving would be all wrong.

Just something I've noticed... With all the money you've put or planning on putting into your V1 you could of had a V2 and then some, which arguably is a better performing vehicle all around especially given the shock technology it has and the easy bolt on 650rwhp mods available for it, better diff, trans... etc etc... the list is too long.

I love my V1 for it's looks. the interior sucks and the driveline issues are quite bullshit :) But I'll continue driving it living with the imperfections until they push me to something else.
I love modding cars, but it gets to a point where you want to mod the car to the level and beyond of the next gen car that exists for only 12k (used) more than what your current car is worth seems ...futile. Just my 0.02

----------

A quick and relatively easy weight save would be to convert to 5lug hubs and wheels.
Another option is you could also convert to electronic park brake, eliminating the need for internal shoes, cable, and footbrake assembly.

Each time you post, i think its me doing the typing. But yeah the 5 lug would save more weight and have benefit. and cost less overall it seems.

Naf
10-27-13, 02:03 AM
It is probably possible to upgrade the front suspension, but like you said it wont be cheap..

We have a few options. contract a chinese company to make the new arm for us. or spen 3,000-5,000 dollars and buy the full front end.

Either way it may or may not work...

The first option is the better of the two and probably cheaper.

liqidvenom
10-28-13, 08:23 AM
Nothing wrong with having a chinese company make you a new arm, only difference is that a big company can afford to have them build it...test it and add revisions to the product. We would be doing the durability for this part on the open road which would be a bad idea.

You could buy the majority of the front end from a scrap yard, have it checked for straightness and spend maybe 500 bucks in parts.

FuzzyLogic
01-01-14, 04:35 PM
Just played with the cast aluminum and cast iron pieces. They are identical in weight. Once you notice that the cast aluminum V2 spindle is roughly twice the size of the cast iron V1 spindle, it's not surprising. If you have any detailed questions about the differences, let me know. Bottom line is that Naf was correct in saying that you have to use upper and lower V2 control arms. The ball joint interfaces are the problem.

The next thing I want to do is look into V2 upper control arms. Weight considerations aside, they should permit several additional degrees of caster due to the better ball joint location. The trick is going to be figuring out how to resolve the threaded ball joint problem. If Creative Steel or Revshift is reading this, it may be worthwhile looking at compatibility with the V2 spindle if you're thinking about building lower control arms. You'd triple your userbase, and the people that would be interested in that product would probably not think twice about spending an additional $400 on used V2 spindles/upper control arms.

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/CADILLAC-GM-OEM-15219467-Control-Arm-Suspension-Control-Arm-/00/s/MTEwN1gxNTAw/z/wxMAAOxyRNJSlQxE/$_57.JPG
V2 upper control arm

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/03-07-Cadillac-CTS-CTS-V-Left-Hand-Front-Upper-Control-Arm-/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/$(KGrHqN,!pcE7Bcvmh6+BOzP-I(Z-!~~60_58.JPG
V1 upper control arm

liqidvenom
01-01-14, 11:56 PM
good info

TimmyC
01-03-14, 10:11 PM
STS spindles are aluminum. Has anyone looked at those?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/07-CADILLAC-STS-LEFT-FRONT-SPINDLE-KNUCKLE-DRIVER-SIDE-LH-OEM-/160944037698

FuzzyLogic
01-04-14, 12:23 AM
STS spindles are aluminum. Has anyone looked at those?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/07-CADILLAC-STS-LEFT-FRONT-SPINDLE-KNUCKLE-DRIVER-SIDE-LH-OEM-/160944037698

I can immediately see that the top of the spindle will not be compatible with the CTS-V1 upper control arms. I just contacted the seller, asking them to weigh the piece. If there's a significant weight loss possible, I'll let you all know.

TimmyC
01-04-14, 12:52 AM
I can't see the top of the CTS spindle. What is not compatible?

FuzzyLogic
01-04-14, 01:02 AM
I can't see the top of the CTS spindle. What is not compatible?

The STS spindle requires an upper control arm that has a threaded ball joint. The 04-07 CTS-V upper control arm has a threadless ball joint that relies on the upper branch of the spindle to pinch closed, capturing a machined rib in the ball joint. If you were to simply swap in the STS part, you would not be able to drive the car. because you would not be able to secure the upper control arm to the spindle.

Unfortunately, I've checked everywhere and cannot find threaded ball joints that fit the 04-07 upper control arm. If I could, it would make things much easier. Given that, the next step is to buy a couple of 09-13 upper control arms, test fit them, and if they fit, then see if they're compatible with this STS spindle. They might not be. There's a possibility that the increased caster angle, caused by the 09-13 control arm, will cause contact between the bottom corner of the spindle and the lower control arm. The ball joint in the 04-07 CTS-V lower control arm has a limited range of articulation, and the 09-13 upper control arm is going to be pushing it.

All of this is a moot point if the STS spindle isn't appreciably lighter than the CTS-V spindle.

TimmyC
01-04-14, 01:05 AM
Would sts control arms work

FuzzyLogic
01-04-14, 01:35 AM
Would sts control arms work

Using the Mark 0 eyeball, I'd say no. It looks too pushed out--you'll probably scrub the inside rim of your wheels on the spindle. And even if it works, you'd pay a huge price in terms of camber gain during cornering. But you just helped me find a potentially compatible upper ball joint. The K500065. Of course, I'll need to buy an Arbor press to start experimenting. Harbor Freight sells these small (30" tall) 6-ton presses for $70. It's on my list now.

http://www.harborfreight.com/6-ton-a-frame-bench-shop-press-1666.html

TimmyC
01-04-14, 01:41 AM
Hmm, that's all I have to add to the party.

FuzzyLogic
01-04-14, 01:43 AM
Hmm, that's all I have to add to the party.

Hey, I appreciate it. Your input was invaluable! :thumbsup:

TimmyC
01-04-14, 01:48 AM
Hey, I appreciate it. Your input was invaluable! :thumbsup:

Thanks. I guess it was a little addition by subtraction. We know one more part that doesn't work.

It seems that milling some unneeded material out of the CTS-V knuckle would be the easiest way to reduce the weight.

ctsv247
01-04-14, 02:03 AM
So creative steel, ready to pull another one off for us? Looks like a matched set of upper and lower arms that would allow us to bolt on a v2 spindle would be a winner. I would rather buy a set of fully assembled arms than go to the hassle of installing bushings and balljoints in my old ones....

FuzzyLogic
01-04-14, 02:05 AM
Thanks. I guess it was a little addition by subtraction. We know one more part that doesn't work.

It seems that milling some unneeded material out of the CTS-V knuckle would be the easiest way to reduce the weight.

Given the fact that the CTS-V2 spindle is aluminum, but much larger than the V1's steel spindle, do you think that Cadillac made a mistake casting the STS spindles in aluminum from nearly the same mold as the CTS-V? You've gotta wonder if the aluminum STS spindles are stiff enough to handle the cornering loads that we would throw at it.

ctsv247
01-04-14, 02:11 AM
If they're using those on the sts-v you would have to think they'd work alright for us. Maybe they had to use aluminum because they were getting close to a weight threshold of some sort.

TimmyC
01-04-14, 02:18 AM
The STS spindles don't break so I'd say the mistake was using cast iron in the CTS spindles. I never knew they were iron. I assumed the whole front suspension was the same as the STS with the exception of the caliper location.

FuzzyLogic
01-09-14, 08:59 PM
I just bought the 2007 STS-V aluminum spindles.

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/07-CADILLAC-STS-LEFT-FRONT-SPINDLE-KNUCKLE-DRIVER-SIDE-LH-OEM-/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/$(KGrHqJ,!rYFCYuIrItiBQ1eiG75v!~~60_57.JPG
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/07-CADILLAC-STS-LEFT-FRONT-SPINDLE-KNUCKLE-DRIVER-SIDE-LH-OEM-/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/$(KGrHqR,!lgFC3B2tDF0BQ1eh5hSk!~~60_57.JPG

I'll publish part numbers and additional information if/when I engineer a solution. I'm confident enough to put a couple hundred more dollars on the line. However, I don't yet know whether it'll require a) replacing the ball joints on the CTS-V1 UCAs with threaded ones, b) replacing the CTS-V1 UCAs with STS-V UCAs, or c) replacing the CTS-V1 UCAs with CTS-V2 UCAs.

I don't want to get you all excited, but the CTS-V iron spindle weighs 13.1 lbs, and the STS-V spindle weighs 8.7 lbs, for a 4.4 lb weight reduction per corner. If you had to buy everything new, the STS-V spindle costs $180 and the UCA assembly costs $250. Used prices are roughly 1/2 that. Compare that with the two-piece 355mm (not the 370mm) RacingBrake rotor, which weighs 21.5 lbs versus the OEM 26.0 lb rotor and costs about $400 each. Combine the two and you've lost 8.9 lbs of unsprung weight. The CTS-V1 caliper weighs 11.6 lbs (including Ferodo HP1000 pads) whereas the CTS-V2 caliper weighs 13.0 lbs (including ET800 pads). OEM and SKF X-Tracker hubs weigh exactly the same, or at least within the 0.1 lb accuracy of my scale. Therefore, net unsprung weight reduction on each corner should be 7.5 lbs.

ctsv247
01-09-14, 09:26 PM
Thanks for taking the time to push this forward.

FuzzyLogic
02-01-14, 04:50 PM
Teardown for the STS-V spindle / RacingBrake swap is occurring right now. I'm using a set of V2 upper control arms (UCAs). The V2 UCAs are better than the STS-V UCAs in every way. All three UCAs appear to use the exact same bushings, so aftermarket bushings (e.g. Revshift products) can be transferred from one to the other.

Side-by-side spindle comparisons elicited a mixed reaction from me. The STS-V spindle is almost 1" taller than the CTS-V spindle. The camber angle is probably going to be 1-2 degrees less for a given lower control arm (LCA) setting. The caster angle is going to be 2-4 degrees more due to the offset on the V2 UCAs. Wheel clearance looks sufficient to support 10" Forgestar wheels. Pictures and hard data to follow in the next 24-48 hours.

Naf
02-02-14, 04:42 AM
Fuzzy,

I have to commend you on your persistance, but you have to look on how the setup links together...You need the top arm / mount which will fit with out a problem from the V2, but the bottom arm will be your down fall.

If i am not mistaken, on the v1 we have the bolt on the bottom not the top for the lower arm to spindle. Not to mention you will have an issue with the swaybar links. This part looks very familiar to the V2 spindle, in almost every way...

FuzzyLogic
02-02-14, 08:00 AM
Fuzzy,

I have to commend you on your persistance, but you have to look on how the setup links together...You need the top arm / mount which will fit with out a problem from the V2, but the bottom arm will be your down fall.

If i am not mistaken, on the v1 we have the bolt on the bottom not the top for the lower arm to spindle. Not to mention you will have an issue with the swaybar links. This part looks very familiar to the V2 spindle, in almost every way...

The STS-V spindle is very similar to the V1 spindle. As I mentioned earlier, the LCA through-hole on the STS-V spindle is identical to the V1. So, there's no need to replace the V1 LCAs with STS-V or V2 LCAs. Sway bar endlinks aren't a concern.

FuzzyLogic
02-03-14, 12:36 AM
Only had time for a test fit today. Everything appears to check out. For a more thorough report, see this post (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/2004-2007-cadillac-cts-v-performance/363017-pig-slop-36.html#post11841497). Fully assembled spindle/hub weight comparison:

V1 spindle, OEM hub, ARP 100-7708 studs, Grade 10.9 M12-1.75x50 fasteners, front shield = 21.8 lbs
STS-V spindle, SKF X-Tracker hub, ARP 100-7708 studs, Grade 10.9 M12-1.75x70 bolts, front and rear shields: 18.0 lbs (-3.8 lbs)

Preliminary measurements from top of wheel bearing flange and to the upper ball joint hole:

V1 spindle extends 11" upwards (dead vertical) and 5" inwards (to ball joint), providing about 5" clearance where rim of wheel would land
STS-V spindle extends 12.5" upwards (dead vertical) and 5.75" inwards (to ball joint), providing about 6" of clearance where rim of wheel would land

http://i1345.photobucket.com/albums/p663/Fuzzylog1c/V2%20Brakes/DSC03280_zpsebb52f45.jpg (http://s1345.photobucket.com/user/Fuzzylog1c/media/V2%20Brakes/DSC03280_zpsebb52f45.jpg.html)

http://i1345.photobucket.com/albums/p663/Fuzzylog1c/V2%20Brakes/DSC03388_zpsdb2c064f.jpg (http://s1345.photobucket.com/user/Fuzzylog1c/media/V2%20Brakes/DSC03388_zpsdb2c064f.jpg.html)

http://i1345.photobucket.com/albums/p663/Fuzzylog1c/V2%20Brakes/DSC03439_zps19824975.jpg (http://s1345.photobucket.com/user/Fuzzylog1c/media/V2%20Brakes/DSC03439_zps19824975.jpg.html)

http://i1345.photobucket.com/albums/p663/Fuzzylog1c/V2%20Brakes/DSC03451_zpsdc014388.jpg (http://s1345.photobucket.com/user/Fuzzylog1c/media/V2%20Brakes/DSC03451_zpsdc014388.jpg.html)

http://i1345.photobucket.com/albums/p663/Fuzzylog1c/V2%20Brakes/DSC03434_zpscd1e0be1.jpg (http://s1345.photobucket.com/user/Fuzzylog1c/media/V2%20Brakes/DSC03434_zpscd1e0be1.jpg.html)

http://i1345.photobucket.com/albums/p663/Fuzzylog1c/V2%20Brakes/DSC03427_zpsddc81767.jpg (http://s1345.photobucket.com/user/Fuzzylog1c/media/V2%20Brakes/DSC03427_zpsddc81767.jpg.html)

----------

Before I forget, you'll need two M12-1.75, Grade 10.9 nuts for the V2 upper control arms. I recommend trying a batch from this place (http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-M12-1-75-Pitch-Hex-Head-Flange-Nuts-Phosphate-Metric-10-9-Grade-/130593853951?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1e680011ff&vxp=mtr). As far as I know, there's no way to buy a smaller package of them. You can take advantage of these extra nuts if you opt to buy an extra pack of M12-1.75x70mm bolts for your OEM driveshaft. Since you'll need 6 of them for the STS-V spindles anyway, three bags of bolts from this vendor (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006HYFVHA/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) will leave you with four leftover bolts and two nuts.

serik
02-03-14, 02:25 AM
Did you happen to check on the v2 spindle the hub size weather its the same as v1? In other words it would be nice if we could use v2 hubs disc and brakes instead of the corvette swap.

Naf
02-03-14, 03:29 AM
I like where this is goin, the only issue is whether or not the extra inch will cause alignment issues down the road.

Fitment is identical and you will be able to run wider tires upfront. Currently i am runnin 285 upfront and squeezing 305 in the rear. If i am able to run all 305 tires i am gonna be the happiest man alive... Just need to buy more 305s and another two sets of wheel lips from HRE.

Let us know, and Pn for the spindles are 18064146 and 18064147. Heat shields are a little more complicated, i am goin to use the V2 as they protect the steering knuckle, and V1 which protects the lower ball joint.

FuzzyLogic
02-03-14, 06:15 AM
The front V2 heat shields are clocked incorrectly to do their job well. You'll get some benefit from them, but frankly, you're better off going with spindle ducts, which will hit both areas at the same time.

Naf
02-03-14, 07:09 AM
I gave up on the spindle duct project. To route the hoses so i get fresh air, then have my oil cooler, my PS cooler, and my Tranny cooler and, LS7 dry sump return line hoses all in the mix was too much...

And i couldnt just install the spindle duct on its own...Didnt seem right

Naf
02-07-14, 09:26 AM
Any new news?

AAIIIC
02-08-14, 09:24 AM
STS-V spindle, SKF X-Tracker hub, ARP 100-7708 studs, Grade 10.9 M12-1.75x70 bolts, front and rear shields: 18.0 lbs (-3.8 lbs)
I don't think it matters that it's from an STS-V. Searching for the part numbers that Naf posted it appears the spindles are the same whether they're V or non-V. (As far as I know that's the case with CTS and CTS-V knuckles, too, so not surprising.) Plenty of regular STS spindles on ebay or car-part.com.

The next question is whether the V2 upper control arms are any different from the '08+ V6 upper control arms. Again, would make finding parts easier/cheaper.

FuzzyLogic
02-08-14, 10:02 AM
I don't think it matters that it's from an STS-V. Searching for the part numbers that Naf posted it appears the spindles are the same whether they're V or non-V.

That doesn't match what I saw on eBay. Here's an example of an STS spindle, marked 05-11:

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NjAwWDgwMA==/z/0GQAAOxyOMdS6in6/$_3.JPG

As you can see, this design has transitioned to the inverted lower control arm.

AAIIIC
02-08-14, 10:20 AM
Interesting. Looking at this site (http://www.gmpartscenter.net/parts-catalog/cadillac/sts/2009/base/3-6l-v6-gas/front-suspension/suspension-components) (I just randomly choose 2009, but they have diagrams for the other years, too) they're showing that ^^^ style for the AWD STS (with a PN of 18064126), and the 18064146 style for the non-AWD STS.

The third drawing on that link has a listing for "STS, STS-V; w/AWD" and "STS, STS-V; w/o AWD", so maybe their drawings and part numbers are AFU? (Since there obviously was no AWD STS-V.)

FuzzyLogic
02-08-14, 11:04 AM
Interesting. Looking at this site (http://www.gmpartscenter.net/parts-catalog/cadillac/sts/2009/base/3-6l-v6-gas/front-suspension/suspension-components) (I just randomly choose 2009, but they have diagrams for the other years, too) they're showing that ^^^ style for the AWD STS (with a PN of 18064126), and the 18064146 style for the non-AWD STS.

The third drawing on that link has a listing for "STS, STS-V; w/AWD" and "STS, STS-V; w/o AWD", so maybe their drawings and part numbers are AFU? (Since there obviously was no AWD STS-V.)

Weird. Neither of those parts match the part numbers on my spindles. 18079801EA (left) and 18079802EA (right). Unfortunately, all of the GMPartsDirect-like places have stopped publishing part numbers on their catalogs to avoid comparison shopping, so it's hard for me to get into the system and find something you can plug and chug.

In related news, it's 19 degrees outside, so I'm thinking we're still a week away from me installing these on the car. Unless I get really, really bored tomorrow. ;)

----------

Based on some eBay research, I think I might've figured it out. The RWD spindles are the correct ones. The AWD spindles require the inverted lower control arm, which are incompatible with the CTS-V1. Check out the following two auctions--RWD STS spindle (http://www.ebay.com/itm/05-06-07-08-CADILLAC-STS-Driver-Left-Front-Spindle-w-Hub-bearing-Assembly-RWD-/350902737037?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Make%3ACadillac%7CModel%3ASTS&hash=item51b36ed88d&vxp=mtr) and AWD STS spindle (http://www.ebay.com/itm/05-11-CADILLAC-STS-Driver-Left-Front-Spindle-w-Hub-Assembly-and-ABS-8188-/350786098129?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Model%3ASTS&hash=item51ac7b13d1)--from the same guy.

So, in summary, we want the 18064126 and 18064127 spindles, NOT the 18064146 and 18064147 spindles. The --26 and --27 match #19 on the following chart:

http://www.tonkinonlineparts.com/images/parts/gm/fullsize/0511106D06-044.JPG

Pay close attention to #33. Apparently, that inverted loop was originally a separate piece, until GM made it part of the spindle casting.

AAIIC, if you're trying to grab these things used, there's a right-hand spindle to go with the left one here (http://www.ebay.com/itm/05-CADILLAC-STS-FRONT-RIGHT-PASSENGER-SPINDLE-KNUCKLE-SPRING-SHOCK-HUB-ASSEMBLY-/271389277950?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3f300fbefe&vxp=mtr). If you're willing to take a risk and buy something without pictures, there are two additional sets available here (left (http://www.ebay.com/itm/FRONT-SPINDLE-KNUCKLE-STS-1087841-05-06-07-08-09-10-11-LEFT-FRONT-LESS-HUB-/291073126560?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item43c54f70a0&vxp=mtr) and right (http://www.ebay.com/itm/FRONT-SPINDLE-KNUCKLE-STS-1087840-05-06-07-08-09-10-11-RIGHT-FRONT-LESS-HUB-/191060493199?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2c7c17c38f&vxp=mtr)) and here (left (http://www.ebay.com/itm/FRONT-SPINDLE-KNUCKLE-STS-1245585-05-06-07-08-09-10-11-LEFT-FRONT-LESS-HUB-/291064103422?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item43c4c5c1fe&vxp=mtr) and right (http://www.ebay.com/itm/FRONT-SPINDLE-KNUCKLE-STS-1245584-05-06-07-08-09-10-11-RIGHT-FRONT-LESS-HUB-/350981906211?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item51b826df23&vxp=mtr)). I got my spindles for $185, all told.

darkman
02-08-14, 10:45 PM
Unfortunately, all of the GMPartsDirect-like places have stopped publishing part numbers on their catalogs to avoid comparison shopping, so it's hard for me to get into the system and find something you can plug and chug. I have been able to get GM part numbers by going to the GM Parts Direct alternative website http://www.gmpartsdirect.com/catalog/?CFID=11865479&CFTOKEN=48422024. To get the part number you need to add the part in question to the cart and proceed to check out as if you intended to buy it. Within that process you are asked to provide a vin so the part can be verified - you do not need to give it a vin but you will have to type "I AGREE" to a disclaimer. You will need to do the type "I AGREE"-thing twice to complete the override. It will then show the cart with part numbers.

Naf
02-09-14, 01:42 AM
damn! i goofed on the pn... I was sure i had the right pn...

FuzzyLogic
02-09-14, 02:02 AM
damn! i goofed on the pn... I was sure i had the right pn...

At this point you're going to have a whole V2 in spare parts sitting around! ;)

Motown Cad
02-09-14, 05:33 AM
At this point you're going to have a whole V2 in spare parts sitting around! ;)

And that is a good thing.

darkman
02-09-14, 09:46 AM
And that is a good thing. It sure is.. We call all convert our V1s to V2s one part at time.

FuzzyLogic
02-09-14, 09:48 AM
So... I'm going to be installing everything today. The timer starts in 13 minutes (10 AM EST).

Naf
02-09-14, 11:08 AM
I have a complete right side and A few nick nacks for the left...

I am pausin on u fuzzy. U say the all clear and i am pushin the purchase button again...

With the right parts this time

FuzzyLogic
02-09-14, 07:10 PM
Update: things are progressing very slowly because I started with the rear hubs. Got stuck trying to figure out how to torque the new SKF hubs down to 118 ft-lbs for a while (advice: big bench vise), and then stuck trying to get the parking brake cable back on (advice: pull the cable out past the spring, then prevent it from getting sucked back into the car by clamping it with a Vise Grip).

The night is still young, but I have to get up early. We'll see how late I want to stay up.

Edit: not going to stay up all night cutting out stock bushings from V2 UCAs. Next weekend. In the past 2 hours, it's snowed 1.5 inches outside.

Naf
02-16-14, 12:18 PM
Its new weekend, my trigger finger is gettin a little twitchy...


Does the front work?

FuzzyLogic
02-16-14, 12:44 PM
Its new weekend, my trigger finger is gettin a little twitchy...


Does the front work?

It snowed 3 inches yesterday. I haven't been able to work on it. Fortunately, the forecast for this week looks promising--temperatures in the 40's.

Naf
02-16-14, 01:05 PM
And i though it was cold here startin the day at 50 the soarin up to 75 by lunch then plunging down to 60 for the evenings...

Dust is my greatest enemy!!!

FuzzyLogic
02-16-14, 01:34 PM
And i though it was cold here startin the day at 50 the soarin up to 75 by lunch then plunging down to 60 for the evenings...

Dust is my greatest enemy!!!

I wish dust was my greatest enemy. Here we have snow, rocks, salt, and pollen (enough to turn your car a yellow haze) in addition to dust.

Naf
02-19-14, 09:01 AM
God loves me...

Received the knuckles today and they are the right ones...

40mm longer so i will see what i lose when installing them...

My crew is gonna hate me, installin the drysump tank and hoses at the same time...The hard part was routing the hose away from the exhaust...

odla
02-19-14, 01:53 PM
Post up pics please.

FuzzyLogic
02-19-14, 07:52 PM
God loves me...

Received the knuckles today and they are the right ones...

40mm longer so i will see what i lose when installing them...

My crew is gonna hate me, installin the drysump tank and hoses at the same time...The hard part was routing the hose away from the exhaust...

So your trigger finger got a little itchy? How close are you to installation?

Naf
02-19-14, 10:49 PM
I will start this mornin and post my findings. I leave tomorro on a family trip so its today or neva

Naf
02-20-14, 02:52 AM
Started...

It works but just barely. I have a slight negative camber, but i had to reuse the top upper arm mount, and just change the arm. You will need longer bolts for the hubs, about 10mm. You reuse all the heat protection between the hub and the knuckle.

The steering point is slightly shorter offering more turning at lower effort from the wheel.

I am waiting on new hardware for the hub, but i basically have it all in. I will be trimming the lower arm mounting holes a little, giving me more adjustment for negative camber...

Good luck gentleman, it is possible...

Before Pix

http://www.flickr.com/photos/69163769@N07/12650702325/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/69163769@N07/12650706165/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/69163769@N07/12650709685/in/photostream/

After Pix

http://www.flickr.com/photos/69163769@N07/12650845973/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/69163769@N07/12650718125/in/photostream/

FuzzyLogic
02-20-14, 03:38 AM
If I would have known you were going to do this, I would have warned you about the hub bolts. The stock heat shield won't fit unless you bend the crap out of it or cut the ABS sensor mounting tab off.

Are you saying that you have less negative camber than before? Because you shouldn't have to eyeball it--one look at the length of the V2 UCAs vs the V1 UCAs should tell you that. My biggest concern is the position of the UCAs relative to the top of the wheel well. Will it hit? If not, you should notice that your dynamic negative camber gain is greatly increased.

If you have too much negative camber, drilling the slots is a perfectly acceptable solution, but so is using the longer STS UCAs. However, those do not have that great offset for caster.

Naf
02-20-14, 04:39 AM
You cannot use the lower control arm (UCA) from the sts as the shock absorber doesnt bolt on the same way.

Using the stock UCA I have substantially less negative camber, and positive caster. I will look to trim and strengthen the mounts with some 2mm flatbar welded on. Giving me about 10mm more outwards movement to give me more negative camber and not alter the already positive caster. (the knuckle is sweeping much further backwards then before)

I will have to trim a little off the inside of the knuckle so my swaybay and endlinks dont get in touch with it whilst moving. In the loaded position it all clears, but if i lower the wheel, to mimic the extension of the suspension while in a turn, the swaybar and endlink touch the knuckle slightly.

I am waiting on hardware so i am at a standstill till i get back...My earliest report will be on Sunday the 2nd of march...

You will have to shorten the length for the steering rod ends for they give wicked toe out.

I am ordering the left upper mount from luke for i dont feel like using used busings on my ride, but they are available on ebay for about $80. You just need the arm from the mount, also BEFORE YOU take the arm off the mount mark its position and install the new arm in the same angle. I didnt do it to mine Twice, and now i have to measure the left side to find the correct installed height.

Good idea, but like all great mods, you have to be patient and work the bugs out of it...

Good call on the sts knuckle, i would have given up....

FuzzyLogic
02-20-14, 07:15 AM
What you said about measuring the angle of the arm doesn't make sense to me. You should just have to replace the V1 UCA with the V2 UCA, then attach the spindle and rotate the UCA to connect to the spindle.

Since I'm having a guy come in and do the welded modifications to my rear subframe to accommodate the GeForce 9", I may take that opportunity to ask him to weld flat bar to the lower control arm mounting points. But I'll need to get measurements for the slot (IIRC, it's 14mm) and have everything ready for when he arrives.

Naf
02-20-14, 07:26 AM
The V2 UCA bolts in from the top vs the bottom. Also the mounting position for the V2 UCA is diff by 19mm.

I am going to make the adjustment slots longer so i am able to gain more negative camber and reinforce them with 3mm angle bars welding them to the top and bottom for more rigidness.

The V2 UCA could work, but you need another knuckle. I rather keep the V1 UCA and increase the adjustments. 10mm in the front and 15mm in the rear

----------

For the upper mount, measure the height from the top of the wheel well to the top of the arm near the ball joint in the relaxed position, when you replace the arm you lose its placement for the rubber bushings add suspension tension as you lift the arm upwards.

This way you get the same tension, and your movement is also the same.

FuzzyLogic
02-20-14, 06:30 PM
The V2 UCA bolts in from the top vs the bottom. Also the mounting position for the V2 UCA is diff by 19mm.

I am going to make the adjustment slots longer so i am able to gain more negative camber and reinforce them with 3mm angle bars welding them to the top and bottom for more rigidness.

The V2 UCA could work, but you need another knuckle. I rather keep the V1 UCA and increase the adjustments. 10mm in the front and 15mm in the rear

----------

For the upper mount, measure the height from the top of the wheel well to the top of the arm near the ball joint in the relaxed position, when you replace the arm you lose its placement for the rubber bushings add suspension tension as you lift the arm upwards.

This way you get the same tension, and your movement is also the same.

Maybe what you're saying will make sense when I install it, but it feels like you're talking about a different car. I'll state what I know, along with my assumptions. If you see something you disagree with, let me know:

The V2 UCA bolts to the V1 yoke with no modifications required. The ball joint on the V2 UCA is offset relative to the V1 UCA, and provides several extra degrees of caster. It requires a M12-1.75 Class 10.9 nut (http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-M12-1-75-Pitch-Hex-Head-Flange-Nuts-Phosphate-Metric-10-9-Grade-/130593853951?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1e680011ff&vxp=mtr) to fasten it to the spindle.

The rest of what you're saying sounds like you're fighting the OEM bushings on the UCA instead of tightening them after the spindle is attached.

AAIIIC
02-20-14, 09:20 PM
I thought the the STS spindles wouldn't work with the V1 upper control arm, so you had to use the STS upper control arm? I'm confused.

Naf
02-20-14, 11:27 PM
I thought the the STS spindles wouldn't work with the V1 upper control arm, so you had to use the STS upper control arm? I'm confused.

I used the v2 upper arm in the v1 upper mount. This way i get some negative camber and still get the backward sweep

I have a v2 uca it has the ball joint piontin down. My v1 uca has a ball joint pointin up which i used with my sts knuckle. The sts knuckle ball joint slot is shorter than the stock knuckle thus takin my camber away from me. To repeat i only used the arm of the v2 upper mount and reused the v1 bracket.

The v2 uca bushings are smaller than the stock and u will need to use a 19mm spacer to fill the void.

I have my fab guys extendin the camber slots by 10mm for the front holes and 15mm for the rear holes. I also have them strengthening the rear lower arm slots as well as they are too thin.

Will post pix of my job after i get back

FuzzyLogic
02-21-14, 12:11 AM
I used the v2 upper arm in the v1 upper mount. This way i get some negative camber and still get the backward sweep

Expected. The CTS-V1, STS, and CTS-V2 all have the same yoke ear separation.


I have a v2 uca it has the ball joint piontin down. My v1 uca has a ball joint pointin up which i used with my sts knuckle. The sts knuckle ball joint slot is shorter than the stock knuckle thus takin my camber away from me. To repeat i only used the arm of the v2 upper mount and reused the v1 bracket.

All UCAs have the ball joint pointing down. It sounds like you replaced the V1 UCA ball joint with a STS/V2 threaded ball joint, but you installed it backwards. That shouldn't work because STS/V2 threaded ball joints feature a 37 degree flared bushing that mates with the inverse on the top of the spindle. I have no idea what you mean by "knuckle slot." The only slots in the front suspension are the slots in the subframe where the LCAs bolt on. Those are used to adjust camber.


The v2 uca bushings are smaller than the stock and u will need to use a 19mm spacer to fill the void.

Are you sure about that? The aluminum portion of the V2 UCAs appear to be the exact same thickness as the V1 and the STS UCAs, meaning that Revshift bushings (if you have them) can be transplanted from your V1 UCAs.


I have my fab guys extendin the camber slots by 10mm for the front holes and 15mm for the rear holes. I also have them strengthening the rear lower arm slots as well as they are too thin.

I have 1/8" (3.175mm) 4130 alloy steel plate on order to permit me to play with that too. I'm a little bit confused about the lack of negative caster, since I held the V2 UCAs directly underneath my V1 UCAs and only noted how the ball joint was offset toward the back of the car. Unless there's some interaction between the spindle and the V2 UCA that I didn't catch, or the angle machined into the spindle is significantly different than the V1 and I didn't notice, I'm predicting that up to +7.0 degrees of caster should be possible with -1.5 to -2.0 degrees camber. If welding plates onto the subframe is necessary, that will mandate custom, wider LCA bushings (which Revshift can make) and increase front trackwidth. It's a good thing I'm having larger fender flares fabricated...


Will post pix of my job after i get back

That would be helpful.

Naf
02-21-14, 01:25 AM
The knuckle slot is the place where the uca ball joint slips in and the nut tightens on to.

I wish i took more pix but i am packin now and the car is 30mi away...

The sts knuckle i have bolts perfectly onto my stock uca. Thats the reason i bought it. Less new parts and more plug and play

FuzzyLogic
02-21-14, 07:10 AM
But when you say slot, it's a round hole, not a slot right?

Naf
02-21-14, 07:35 AM
Yes the cone shaped hole that looks round from the bottom...

darkman
02-21-14, 07:45 AM
It's a slot, it's a hole, it's a cone.....you guys are killing me. LMAO

Naf
02-21-14, 07:51 AM
Its hard to visualize text.. Plus we have different terms for the same thing...

Ask away fuzzy

ctsv247
02-22-14, 10:10 PM
Would it be possible to make a tubular upper control arm that would make this a bolt in swap without the need for welding in supports or reworking alignment slots while still keeping "stockish" alignment settings?

And, just so I understand, if you could easily make a replacement control arm, would this spindle swap not only reduce unsprung weight but allow for a wider rim/tire combo up front?

If this is the case, could I pay you to make me some kind of template to work off of so I could have some control arms made?

Thanks for your efforts at pushing this forward!!!

Naf
02-23-14, 01:04 AM
The upper Arm isnt the problem, u just need to make a new lower arm. They are the most expensive with a core charge.

It is possible, i am just not in the mind set to create a new one. I can come up with a 5mm cuttin pattern to help u all adjust a little more. There is enough steel fir 5mm but 10-15 is too much for it.

Let me see what i get from my alterations and i will revert back...

Naf
02-27-14, 12:36 AM
Fuzzy

Any progress?

Naf
03-02-14, 08:16 AM
I am back, and i started to shift the slot outwards so i may benefit from more negative camber.

I increased the front by 10mm and the rear by 15mm, but i am keeping the slot opennng at 30mm total.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/69163769@N07/12878162084/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/69163769@N07/12878167204/

Will take more pix once i get to those stages...

FuzzyLogic
03-02-14, 12:51 PM
I am back, and i started to shift the slot outwards so i may benefit from more negative camber.

I increased the front by 10mm and the rear by 15mm, but i am keeping the slot opennng at 30mm total.

Wondering why you're taking out so much material. Did you measure your camber angle prior to doing this, or are you eyeballing it? The reason why I ask is because you can calculate how much longer the slots have to be:

Roughly, the UCA and LCA mounting holes are vertically displaced by about 500mm (~20"). You might want to check that--I measured the height of the STS spindle in my house and added about an inch on either end. Per basic trig, a 10mm longer slot should give you about 1 more degree of camber capability (arctan 10/500 = 1.146). So, for instance, if you determined earlier that the STS spindle/V2 UCA maxed out at about -1.2 degrees of camber, now you'd have the ability to go to about -2.2 degrees. If you wanted to simply add 2.0 degrees of camber, regardless of what you had earlier, you'd need about 500*tan(2.0) = 17.5mm longer slots. Do you think you need more?

While you're at it, would you mind measuring the shank (M14 IIRC) and underhead length of the LCA bolts? Like you, I think that it's wise to reinforce those slots once you open them up like that. Doubling the tab thickness on the outside will reduce shear stress on the bolt, as a bonus. Earlier this week, I purchased/received a 4x18" piece of 0.125" 4130 alloy steel (http://www.ebay.com/itm/260853959318?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2648) for this very purpose. Since I will be welding one 2.25"-long piece (with slot to match) to each one of the 8 tabs, the bolt must pass through 0.250" = 6.35mm more material. Unless those bolts are longer than I remember, I think we'll want to purchase 5mm longer bolts to compensate. Otherwise there might not be enough bolt to fully thread each nut.

For anyone else reading this--you'll definitely need to POR-15 the sanded/welded area once you're done. Otherwise your subframe will rust. Amazon sells these little $25 starter kits (http://www.amazon.com/POR-15-Super-Starter-Black-Paint/dp/B004LT1ZHS/) that should be more than adequate to do the job, twice over. They come with everything you need, including brushes and gloves.

Naf
03-03-14, 12:30 AM
I eye balled it, but i did use a water level stick to see if i had any negative camber before i started, I had a little but couldnt tell if it was 0.5 or 1 degree. Since i was maxed out, it couldnt be more than 5 more milli till i got the desired negative camber, leaving 5mm more for wiggle room.

We will be fine with the 1/4" thickness. the bolts have more than enough thread to accommodate the new thickness.

We are prepping the frame and i disconnected the pcm for murphy's law. The Tig welder is calibrated and we will tac everything in and see if i get my desired negative camber...

Pix will come as promised, just need to take care of a few personal things...

FuzzyLogic
03-03-14, 12:58 AM
I eye balled it, but i did use a water level stick to see if i had any negative camber before i started, I had a little but couldnt tell if it was 0.5 or 1 degree. Since i was maxed out, it couldnt be more than 5 more milli till i got the desired negative camber, leaving 5mm more for wiggle room.

If you don't already have one, a simple magnetic angle finder is really handy in times like these. Here's the one I use (http://www.amazon.com/JEGS-Performance-Products-81645-Finder/dp/B007VRBCTI/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1393826252&sr=8-2&keywords=jegs+level).

If you go digital, make sure you get something with a backlit screen (http://www.ebay.com/itm/DXL360-Digital-Protractor-Inclinometer-Level-Box-/330517847895?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4cf4661f57). Because most of these things are made China, eBay is going to be your best bet.

Naf
03-03-14, 04:03 AM
This burns for i had a digital one, gave it to one of my workers and now its gone...We were checking to make sure the crane boom was properly leveled prior to cutting it apart...

Naf
03-04-14, 09:27 AM
So i did a quick check and it looks promising, am going to get my 2 degrees very comfortably now

http://flic.kr/p/kGgUx7
http://flic.kr/p/kGfmpa

It may be old school but it works

FuzzyLogic
03-05-14, 05:03 PM
Out of curiosity, how long are your slots, and how big of plates did you make? Those are M14 bolts, right?

Naf
03-05-14, 10:35 PM
The slots are 30mm long with a 3mm thick plate that i covered the while piece with. Pretty much stock.

I am increasing the rear slot by 5mm for more rear camber and also reinforcing them with a 3mm thick plate again the same size of the piece

Naf
03-06-14, 07:53 AM
Observation when you take apart the front suspension components it's best that you set everything up so that the lower control arm in the upper control arm our level with each other and then install the shock absorber this will help keep it where the shock absorber is a neutral tension.

Otherwise you will have either the upper rubber bushing or the lower rubber bushing exerting too much pressure

ctsv247
03-06-14, 09:49 AM
Just so I know....

If you made a new lower control arm that the distance between the bushing mounts and the ball joint were increased by say 20 to 30mm,you could make this a bolt in swap that would offer fairly stock alignment settings, decreased unsprung weight and allow us to run say a 285 tire up front??

Thanks for your efforts!

----------

Edit that last post....

It looks like you could extend the lower control arm to the front control arm bushing by 10mm and to the rear bushing by 15mm and this would position the ball joint about where it needs to be.

I have to say that I am fine with elongating the bolt holes on the frame and then reinforcing them with 3mm plate but I have to say that I'm surprised you are Fuzzy after the reaming you gave Max over his drilled control arm bolts.....

FuzzyLogic
03-06-14, 07:23 PM
Observation when you take apart the front suspension components it's best that you set everything up so that the lower control arm in the upper control arm our level with each other and then install the shock absorber this will help keep it where the shock absorber is a neutral tension.

Otherwise you will have either the upper rubber bushing or the lower rubber bushing exerting too much pressure

Help me understand why anything you do will hold true once the weight goes back on the car.


It looks like you could extend the lower control arm to the front control arm bushing by 10mm and to the rear bushing by 15mm and this would position the ball joint about where it needs to be.

I have to say that I am fine with elongating the bolt holes on the frame and then reinforcing them with 3mm plate but I have to say that I'm surprised you are Fuzzy after the reaming you gave Max over his drilled control arm bolts.....

I've drawn up a design and will be having my local machine shop cut eight 9/16" (14.29mm) slotted tabs out of 3" long, 1/8"-thick (3.175mm) hot rolled 4130 alloy plate steel. Right now, the slots in my drawing are 50mm long, but I'll finalize the drawing when I take my wheels off tomorrow. Ideally, you'd like to have the ability to go to -3.0 degrees of camber on the front wheels to accommodate future lower control arm upgrades that may alter your geometry slightly.

I think that machining these pieces is critical to ensure that you don't make the car a nightmare to align afterwards. Roughly-hewn slots (the kind of stuff that you'd make with a drill and a lot of patience) makes it hard to position the control arms smoothly when you're fighting the suspension for control of the wheels. Plus, 4130 steel is significantly stronger than A36--likely what the subframe is made from. If anyone else is reading this and is interested, let me know and I'll have duplicates made. It won't be cheap (maybe $75-100 including machining and shipping), but I think it'll be worth it. I can also POR-15 or powdercoat the plate if requested, but I think you're better off doing that yourself.

ctsv247, your question seems a little bizarre. Here, we're extending a slot in the subframe, which is certainly compromising the strength of the slot near the end since you don't have as much material left there. But then we're welding a piece of superior quality plate steel onto it that's twice as thick. The result is a subframe mounting point that is vastly stronger in that area than it was previously.

ctsv247
03-06-14, 08:18 PM
Bizarre? I've seen a lot of drilled suspension bolts over the years but modifying a frame is a bit more "outside the box" shall I say.

While I'm not there with you to complete this picture in my mind, I would reinforce the entire control arm mount area while you have it apart but I haven't thought this through as deeply as you have. I spent a lot of time off-roading trucks and it seemed to me that every time I thought I was being smart modifying one part of the frame, I usually unlocked weaknesses elsewhere and before it was all said and done, I had boxed the entire thing.

Weld on soldier.

----------

Almost forgot....based on your up close and personal experience with this project, how hard would it be to make a tubular lower control arm to make this a bolt on. In my current situation, it would be much easier to have all the fab work done off the car and not on it.

Thanks!

FuzzyLogic
03-06-14, 08:25 PM
While I'm not there with you to complete this picture in my mind, I would reinforce the entire control arm mount area while you have it apart but I haven't thought this through as deeply as you have.

Oh, I'm definitely going to be maximizing the size of the plate to provide the largest welding surface possible.

ctsv247
03-06-14, 08:43 PM
With the info gathered here, it shouldn't be too hard to fab a tubular lower control arm to make this a bolt in swap. Could be wrong but I doubt it.

I emailed Max at Creative Steel to see if I could peak a little interest in this as it would make a great complement to his already produced "wide tire rear trailing arms". If any one besides myself sees this mod as being beneficial and you (like me) don't have the time or resources to have parts machined and then weld them on, send Max an email and maybe we can convince him to add something like this to his product offerings.

Thanks to all who have pushed this forward.

Naf
03-07-14, 12:16 AM
It's not holding true as much as neutral position.

When u lift the car everythin pulls down, but when the car is sittin on its wheels the lca is level with the ground. As so should the uca be. If u tighten the uca in the level position then bolt everything on then the rubber bushing will work with ur shocks and not against it

FuzzyLogic
03-07-14, 08:29 AM
It's not holding true as much as neutral position.

When u lift the car everythin pulls down, but when the car is sittin on its wheels the lca is level with the ground. As so should the uca be. If u tighten the uca in the level position then bolt everything on then the rubber bushing will work with ur shocks and not against it

Okay, so you're referring to an issue that is specific to the OEM bushings. Essentially, because the OEM bushings are bonded to the arms, once you torque down the control arm bolts, that rubber get twisted and tries to spring back to its original position as your suspension goes up and down. Torquing down those bolts in a "neutral" position minimizes the effect that the rubber twisting will have on the behavior of your suspension.

But then again, so does buying polyurethane control arm bushings. :stirpot:

Naf
03-07-14, 11:34 AM
Okay, so you're referring to an issue that is specific to the OEM bushings. Essentially, because the OEM bushings are bonded to the arms, once you torque down the control arm bolts, that rubber get twisted and tries to spring back to its original position as your suspension goes up and down. Torquing down those bolts in a "neutral" position minimizes the effect that the rubber twisting will have on the behavior of your suspension. But then again, so does buying polyurethane control arm bushings. :stirpot:

So where does one get bushing for the upper and lower poly bushings?

Pot stirred

tmonttt
03-07-14, 12:29 PM
So where does one get bushing for the upper and lower poly bushings?

Pot stirred

Front Lowers;

https://www.revshift.com/shop/front-lower-control-arm-bushings-2004-2007-cts-v.php

Front Uppers;

https://www.revshift.com/shop/front-upper-control-arm-bushings-2004-2007-cts-v.php

FoD
03-07-14, 12:45 PM
Creative Steel also makes and sells UCA/LCA bushings with zerks.

Naf
03-07-14, 12:51 PM
I rather use revshift better quality and i was theit inspiration to make start making parts for the v

FuzzyLogic
03-09-14, 10:46 PM
After doing some measurements, I adjusted my machine pattern. Notes:


Each mounting "tab" in the subframe is comprised of 1/8" steel with at least 22mm of material between the end of the M14 slot and the end of the tab.

The M14-2.0 bolts connecting the control arms to the subframe feature super-wide flange heads. I measured their diameter as 33mm and change, which I rounded up to 34mm.

Therefore, a 40mm-long slot (up from Naf's 30mm slots) requires a machined plate that is 74mm long, minimum. Otherwise the bolt flange will not be able to fully clamp to the plate.

Each M14-2.0 bolt has 8mm of untapered thread available, making 1/8" (3.125mm)-thick steel plate the thickest recommended material. 8-2(3.125) = 1.75mm thread margin (87.5% of one thread is left over).

Further complicating matters, I found that the backface of each tab had a widely-varying amount of surface area available, because the subframe forms a "pocket" around each. At the very front of the car, the tab had about 5mm of free space after the nut. At the very back of the car, the tab had a lot more available space, however, it also has a form-fitting piece of plate that is tack welded into place. In order to achieve a nice, strong weld there, the machined plate needs to have about 15mm extra length to cover the existing plate and bridge the existing plate.

Since I can't exceed 40mm width without these plates poking out past the bottom of the subframe, I'm able to produce 10 instead of 8 plates from a single piece of 18" 4130 steel, assuming that the cutting head is 1/4" or smaller. This gives me an opportunity to build two experimental tabs without worrying about accidentally screwing myself when it comes time to fit these things up and weld them in place. Ultimately, I decided to develop a drawing featuring eight, 40x80mm tabs with 40mm-long slots. The other two will measure 40x70mm, with 30mm-long slots. If the edges need rounding off, I'll do that with a grinder or something.

TLDR version: I'm making eight machined plates that will meet or exceed OEM subframe strength while providing a 40mm slot for 2.5+ degrees of camber. Since I have extra material, I'll also be experimenting with a smaller version that uses a 30mm slot.

Naf
03-10-14, 01:57 AM
Its a shame we arent in the same neighborhood, we could have compared approaches and seen which is an easier method.

Naf
03-11-14, 12:57 PM
Chassis is primed and painted. Will be installin the parts later this week then finishin the exhaust flushing the oil passages and startin the engine for the first time in a yr and a half...

Naf
03-19-14, 07:42 AM
I am all installed, and i was seriously curious to know if i can have all four wheels 305. And Guess what?!?!?!?

I CAN INSTALL 305 ALL AROUND MY CAR!!!!

What does this mean for you, well, you can run a 275 up front.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/69163769@N07/13264231344/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/69163769@N07/13264238624/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/69163769@N07/13264027313/

I have an electrician coming in tomorrow to wrap up all my wiring needs, and install my gauge pod, methanol injection with temp activation, and rpm switches for my exhaust baffle control.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/69163769@N07/13264296974/

OneFast V
03-19-14, 10:02 AM
We could already run 275 on all 4 corners with the stock setup. so what size is that wheel? 19x10?

nikdsctsv
03-19-14, 10:55 AM
And there is no rubbing during tight turning?

Naf
03-19-14, 11:11 AM
It's actually 19 x 11 and I do not have any rubbing while turning

ctsv247
03-19-14, 11:45 AM
nice job! look forward to your test drive results!

FuzzyLogic
03-22-14, 04:14 PM
[Deleted in response to Cadillac Forums policy charging members for DIY content. (http://ls1tech.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v/1716676-goodbye-cadillac-forums-community-call-action.html)]

ctsv247
03-31-14, 12:05 PM
Basically, fuzzy decided to leave this forum and decided to take some of his info with him. In case he comes back and wipes everything out, i figured i would post on what i remember while its still fresh in my mind.

Basically, a sts spindle mounted on a v1 will yield more tire clearance on the front along with less unsprung weight. It's almost a bolt on. He used some specific combo of V2 and V1 upper control arms and mounts to mate up with the sts spindle but then discovered that the lower ball joint mount on the sts spindle wasn't where it needed to be in order to preserve stockish v1 alignment settings.

His approach to correcting this was welding lower control arm mount extensions onto the frame but the same could be done by making a tubular lower control arm to make up for this.

I'm sure I've left a few things out and got some of this a little twisted but its very close to reality. I hope to make this mod someday and when I finally get around to it, I'll post up but this is a worthwhile swap.

While its reported fuzzy got his car up and running he wouldn't specify about the success or failure of this project so ill assume he didn't get around to completing it.

Thanks to all who have pioneered this swap.

ctsv247
03-31-14, 01:33 PM
It looks like we might have to use a straight (or via a S-curve) end link to go into the knuckle. Something like the Energy Suspension 9-8121 (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ens-9-8121r)R might work. Or there may be a simpler solution, like tapping two bolt holes for a piece of angle iron and drilling a hole in the upright section to accept a standard sway bar end link.

http://d3groupinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/D3-CTS-V-Sway-Bars-07.jpg
http://a248.e.akamai.net/origin-cdn.volusion.com/pthex.zxfye/v/vspfiles/photos/CTSV-HPE-Sways-2.jpg

Just in case

----------


Just played with the cast aluminum and cast iron pieces. They are identical in weight. Once you notice that the cast aluminum V2 spindle is roughly twice the size of the cast iron V1 spindle, it's not surprising. If you have any detailed questions about the differences, let me know. Bottom line is that Naf was correct in saying that you have to use upper and lower V2 control arms. The ball joint interfaces are the problem

The next thing I want to do is look into V2 upper control arms. Weight considerations aside, they should permit several additional degrees of caster due to the better ball joint location. The trick is going to be figuring out how to resolve the threaded ball joint problem. If Creative Steel or Revshift is reading this, it may be worthwhile looking at compatibility with the V2 spindle if you're thinking about building lower control arms. You'd triple your userbase, and the people that would be interested in that product would probably not think twice about spending an additional $400 on used V2 spindles/upper control arms.

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/CADILLAC-GM-OEM-15219467-Control-Arm-Suspension-Control-Arm-/00/s/MTEwN1gxNTAw/z/wxMAAOxyRNJSlQxE/$_57.JPG
V2 upper control arm

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/03-07-Cadillac-CTS-CTS-V-Left-Hand-Front-Upper-Control-Arm-/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/$(KGrHqN,!pcE7Bcvmh6+BOzP-I(Z-!~~60_58.JPG
V1 upper control arm


Just on case

----------


The STS spindle requires an upper control arm that has a threaded ball joint. The 04-07 CTS-V upper control arm has a threadless ball joint that relies on the upper branch of the spindle to pinch closed, capturing a machined rib in the ball joint. If you were to simply swap in the STS part, you would not be able to drive the car. because you would not be able to secure the upper control arm to the spindle.

Unfortunately, I've checked everywhere and cannot find threaded ball joints that fit the 04-07 upper control arm. If I could, it would make things much easier. Given that, the next step is to buy a couple of 09-13 upper control arms, test fit them, and if they fit, then see if they're compatible with this STS spindle. They might not be. There's a possibility that the increased caster angle, caused by the 09-13 control arm, will cause contact between the bottom corner of the spindle and the lower control arm. The ball joint in the 04-07 CTS-V lower control arm has a limited range of articulation, and the 09-13 upper control arm is going to be pushing it.

All of this is a moot point if the STS spindle isn't appreciably lighter than the CTS-V spindle..

This is good stuff and worth archiving...

----------


I just bought the 2007 STS-V aluminum spindles.

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/07-CADILLAC-STS-LEFT-FRONT-SPINDLE-KNUCKLE-DRIVER-SIDE-LH-OEM-/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/$(KGrHqJ,!rYFCYuIrItiBQ1eiG75v!~~60_57.JPG
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/07-CADILLAC-STS-LEFT-FRONT-SPINDLE-KNUCKLE-DRIVER-SIDE-LH-OEM-/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/$(KGrHqR,!lgFC3B2tDF0BQ1eh5hSk!~~60_57.JPG

I'll publish part numbers and additional information if/when I engineer a solution. I'm confident enough to put a couple hundred more dollars on the line. However, I don't yet know whether it'll require a) replacing the ball joints on the CTS-V1 UCAs with threaded ones, b) replacing the CTS-V1 UCAs with STS-V UCAs, or c) replacing the CTS-V1 UCAs with CTS-V2 UCAs.

I don't want to get you all excited, but the CTS-V iron spindle weighs 13.1 lbs, and the STS-V spindle weighs 8.7 lbs, for a 4.4 lb weight reduction per corner. If you had to buy everything new, the STS-V spindle costs $180 and the UCA assembly costs $250. Used prices are roughly 1/2 that. Compare that with the two-piece 355mm (not the 370mm) RacingBrake rotor, which weighs 21.5 lbs versus the OEM 26.0 lb rotor and costs about $400 each. Combine the two and you've lost 8.9 lbs of unsprung weight. The CTS-V1 caliper weighs 11.6 lbs (including Ferodo HP1000 pads) whereas the CTS-V2 caliper weighs 13.0 lbs (including ET800 pads). OEM and SKF X-Tracker hubs weigh exactly the same, or at least within the 0.1 lb accuracy of my scale. Therefore, net unsprung weight reduction on each corner should be 7.5 lbs.

The boy spent a lot of time on this....

----------


Teardown for the STS-V spindle / RacingBrake swap is occurring right now. I'm using a set of V2 upper control arms (UCAs). The V2 UCAs are better than the STS-V UCAs in every way. All three UCAs appear to use the exact same bushings, so aftermarket bushings (e.g. Revshift products) can be transferred from one to the other.

Side-by-side spindle comparisons elicited a mixed reaction from me. The STS-V spindle is almost 1" taller than the CTS-V spindle. The camber angle is probably going to be 1-2 degrees less for a given lower control arm (LCA) setting. The caster angle is going to be 2-4 degrees more due to the offset on the V2 UCAs. Wheel clearance looks sufficient to support 10" Forgestar wheels. Pictures and hard data to follow in the next 24-48 hours..

Just in case

----------


The STS-V spindle is very similar to the V1 spindle. As I mentioned earlier, the LCA through-hole on the STS-V spindle is identical to the V1. So, there's no need to replace the V1 LCAs with STS-V or V2 LCAs. Sway bar endlinks aren't a concern.

Just in case

----------


Weird. Neither of those parts match the part numbers on my spindles. 18079801EA (left) and 18079802EA (right). Unfortunately, all of the GMPartsDirect-like places have stopped publishing part numbers on their catalogs to avoid comparison shopping, so it's hard for me to get into the system and find something you can plug and chug.

In related news, it's 19 degrees outside, so I'm thinking we're still a week away from me installing these on the car. Unless I get really, really bored tomorrow. ;)

----------

Based on some eBay research, I think I might've figured it out. The RWD spindles are the correct ones. The AWD spindles require the inverted lower control arm, which are incompatible with the CTS-V1. Check out the following two auctions--RWD STS spindle (http://www.ebay.com/itm/05-06-07-08-CADILLAC-STS-Driver-Left-Front-Spindle-w-Hub-bearing-Assembly-RWD-/350902737037?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Make%3ACadillac%7CModel%3ASTS&hash=item51b36ed88d&vxp=mtr) and AWD STS spindle (http://www.ebay.com/itm/05-11-CADILLAC-STS-Driver-Left-Front-Spindle-w-Hub-Assembly-and-ABS-8188-/350786098129?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Model%3ASTS&hash=item51ac7b13d1)--from the same guy.

So, in summary, we want the 18064126 and 18064127 spindles, NOT the 18064146 and 18064147 spindles. The --26 and --27 match #19 on the following chart:

http://www.tonkinonlineparts.com/images/parts/gm/fullsize/0511106D06-044.JPG

Pay close attention to #33. Apparently, that inverted loop was originally a separate piece, until GM made it part of the spindle casting.

AAIIC, if you're trying to grab these things used, there's a right-hand spindle to go with the left one here (http://www.ebay.com/itm/05-CADILLAC-STS-FRONT-RIGHT-PASSENGER-SPINDLE-KNUCKLE-SPRING-SHOCK-HUB-ASSEMBLY-/271389277950?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3f300fbefe&vxp=mtr). If you're willing to take a risk and buy something without pictures, there are two additional sets available here (left (http://www.ebay.com/itm/FRONT-SPINDLE-KNUCKLE-STS-1087841-05-06-07-08-09-10-11-LEFT-FRONT-LESS-HUB-/291073126560?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item43c54f70a0&vxp=mtr) and right (http://www.ebay.com/itm/FRONT-SPINDLE-KNUCKLE-STS-1087840-05-06-07-08-09-10-11-RIGHT-FRONT-LESS-HUB-/191060493199?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2c7c17c38f&vxp=mtr)) and here (left (http://www.ebay.com/itm/FRONT-SPINDLE-KNUCKLE-STS-1245585-05-06-07-08-09-10-11-LEFT-FRONT-LESS-HUB-/291064103422?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item43c4c5c1fe&vxp=mtr) and right (http://www.ebay.com/itm/FRONT-SPINDLE-KNUCKLE-STS-1245584-05-06-07-08-09-10-11-RIGHT-FRONT-LESS-HUB-/350981906211?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item51b826df23&vxp=mtr)). I got my spindles for $185, all told.

Good info

----------


If I would have known you were going to do this, I would have warned you about the hub bolts. The stock heat shield won't fit unless you bend the crap out of it or cut the ABS sensor mounting tab off.

Are you saying that you have less negative camber than before? Because you shouldn't have to eyeball it--one look at the length of the V2 UCAs vs the V1 UCAs should tell you that. My biggest concern is the position of the UCAs relative to the top of the wheel well. Will it hit? If not, you should notice that your dynamic negative camber gain is greatly increased.

If you have too much negative camber, drilling the slots is a perfectly acceptable solution, but so is using the longer STS UCAs. However, those do not have that great offset for caster.

Just in csse

----------


Maybe what you're saying will make sense when I install it, but it feels like you're talking about a different car. I'll state what I know, along with my assumptions. If you see something you disagree with, let me know:

The V2 UCA bolts to the V1 yoke with no modifications required. The ball joint on the V2 UCA is offset relative to the V1 UCA, and provides several extra degrees of caster. It requires a M12-1.75 Class 10.9 nut (http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-M12-1-75-Pitch-Hex-Head-Flange-Nuts-Phosphate-Metric-10-9-Grade-/130593853951?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1e680011ff&vxp=mtr) to fasten it to the spindle.

The rest of what you're saying sounds like you're fighting the OEM bushings on the UCA instead of tightening them after the spindle is attached.


Good stuff

----------


Expected. The CTS-V1, STS, and CTS-V2 all have the same yoke ear separation.



All UCAs have the ball joint pointing down. It sounds like you replaced the V1 UCA ball joint with a STS/V2 threaded ball joint, but you installed it backwards. That shouldn't work because STS/V2 threaded ball joints feature a 37 degree flared bushing that mates with the inverse on the top of the spindle. I have no idea what you mean by "knuckle slot." The only slots in the front suspension are the slots in the subframe where the LCAs bolt on. Those are used to adjust camber.



Are you sure about that? The aluminum portion of the V2 UCAs appear to be the exact same thickness as the V1 and the STS UCAs, meaning that Revshift bushings (if you have them) can be transplanted from your V1 UCAs.



I have 1/8" (3.175mm) 4130 alloy steel plate on order to permit me to play with that too. I'm a little bit confused about the lack of negative caster, since I held the V2 UCAs directly underneath my V1 UCAs and only noted how the ball joint was offset toward the back of the car. Unless there's some interaction between the spindle and the V2 UCA that I didn't catch, or the angle machined into the spindle is significantly different than the V1 and I didn't notice, I'm predicting that up to +7.0 degrees of caster should be possible with -1.5 to -2.0 degrees camber. If welding plates onto the subframe is necessary, that will mandate custom, wider LCA bushings (which Revshift can make) and increase front trackwidth. It's a good thing I'm having larger fender flares fabricated...



That would be helpful.

Information....

ctsv247
03-31-14, 02:12 PM
Wondering why you're taking out so much material. Did you measure your camber angle prior to doing this, or are you eyeballing it? The reason why I ask is because you can calculate how much longer the slots have to be:

Roughly, the UCA and LCA mounting holes are vertically displaced by about 500mm (~20"). You might want to check that--I measured the height of the STS spindle in my house and added about an inch on either end. Per basic trig, a 10mm longer slot should give you about 1 more degree of camber capability (arctan 10/500 = 1.146). So, for instance, if you determined earlier that the STS spindle/V2 UCA maxed out at about -1.2 degrees of camber, now you'd have the ability to go to about -2.2 degrees. If you wanted to simply add 2.0 degrees of camber, regardless of what you had earlier, you'd need about 500*tan(2.0) = 17.5mm longer slots. Do you think you need more?

While you're at it, would you mind measuring the shank (M14 IIRC) and underhead length of the LCA bolts? Like you, I think that it's wise to reinforce those slots once you open them up like that. Doubling the tab thickness on the outside will reduce shear stress on the bolt, as a bonus. Earlier this week, I purchased/received a 4x18" piece of 0.125" 4130 alloy steel (http://www.ebay.com/itm/260853959318?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2648) for this very purpose. Since I will be welding one 2.25"-long piece (with slot to match) to each one of the 8 tabs, the bolt must pass through 0.250" = 6.35mm more material. Unless those bolts are longer than I remember, I think we'll want to purchase 5mm longer bolts to compensate. Otherwise there might not be enough bolt to fully thread each nut.

For anyone else reading this--you'll definitely need to POR-15 the sanded/welded area once you're done. Otherwise your subframe will rust. Amazon sells these little $25 starter kits (http://www.amazon.com/POR-15-Super-Starter-Black-Paint/dp/B004LT1ZHS/) that should be more than adequate to do the job, twice over. They come with everything you need, including brushes and gloves.

Just on case

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Okay, so you're referring to an issue that is specific to the OEM bushings. Essentially, because the OEM bushings are bonded to the arms, once you torque down the control arm bolts, that rubber get twisted and tries to spring back to its original position as your suspension goes up and down. Torquing down those bolts in a "neutral" position minimizes the effect that the rubber twisting will have on the behavior of your suspension.

But then again, so does buying polyurethane control arm bushings. :stirpot:

Just in case

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After doing some measurements, I adjusted my machine pattern. Notes:


Each mounting "tab" in the subframe is comprised of 1/8" steel with at least 22mm of material between the end of the M14 slot and the end of the tab.

The M14-2.0 bolts connecting the control arms to the subframe feature super-wide flange heads. I measured their diameter as 33mm and change, which I rounded up to 34mm.

Therefore, a 40mm-long slot (up from Naf's 30mm slots) requires a machined plate that is 74mm long, minimum. Otherwise the bolt flange will not be able to fully clamp to the plate.

Each M14-2.0 bolt has 8mm of untapered thread available, making 1/8" (3.125mm)-thick steel plate the thickest recommended material. 8-2(3.125) = 1.75mm thread margin (87.5% of one thread is left over).

Further complicating matters, I found that the backface of each tab had a widely-varying amount of surface area available, because the subframe forms a "pocket" around each. At the very front of the car, the tab had about 5mm of free space after the nut. At the very back of the car, the tab had a lot more available space, however, it also has a form-fitting piece of plate that is tack welded into place. In order to achieve a nice, strong weld there, the machined plate needs to have about 15mm extra length to cover the existing plate and bridge the existing plate.

Since I can't exceed 40mm width without these plates poking out past the bottom of the subframe, I'm able to produce 10 instead of 8 plates from a single piece of 18" 4130 steel, assuming that the cutting head is 1/4" or smaller. This gives me an opportunity to build two experimental tabs without worrying about accidentally screwing myself when it comes time to fit these things up and weld them in place. Ultimately, I decided to develop a drawing featuring eight, 40x80mm tabs with 40mm-long slots. The other two will measure 40x70mm, with 30mm-long slots. If the edges need rounding off, I'll do that with a grinder or something.

TLDR version: I'm making eight machined plates that will meet or exceed OEM subframe strength while providing a 40mm slot for 2.5+ degrees of camber. Since I have extra material, I'll also be experimenting with a smaller version that uses a 30mm slot.

just in case

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Of all the projects Fuzzy did here this is probably (in my mind) the most significant. I felt that duplicating it made some sense because you just don't know how things will work out when you have personalities colliding. Moderators, please make sure this info sticks around.

Thanks, ctsv247