: Onstar is watching you...



ctsvett
04-08-05, 04:33 PM
I posted this in the "black box thread", but I think it deserves its own thread...


Here is onstar's terms and conditions.. they are watching you.
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THE INFORMATION WE GET FROM YOUR CAR INCLUDES THINGS SUCH AS DATA ABOUT ITS OPERATION, ABOUT YOUR USE OF OnStar SERVICES, ABOUT WHERE YOUR CAR IS JUST BEFORE AND DURING REQUESTS FOR OnStar SERVICE IN YOUR CAR, AND (DEPENDING ON YOUR OnStar Equipment) DATA ABOUT ACCIDENTS INVOLVING YOUR CAR (for example, the direction from which your car was hit).
You agree that we can, subject to applicable law, use any of this information to: (a) provide OnStar services to you or your Car (including sharing that information with roadside assistance providers, emergency service providers, or others, as needed); (b) check or maintain your OnStar Equipment; (c) provide information to the maker of your Car about the Car's performance and to enable the maker of your Car to comply with law; (d) help you or managers of fleets of Cars (if your Car is part of a fleet) to maintain the Car; (e) evaluate and improve our service; (f) enforce this agreement with you or others; (g) prevent fraud or misuse of OnStar service; (h) comply with legal requirements, valid court orders and exigent circumstances; (i) protect the rights, property, or safety of you or others; (j) offer you new or additional products or services; or (k) perform market research.

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NOTE: The part that gets me in the above is the "perform market research" part.. You have basically agreed to let me track you for market research purposes...


Thats why I am unplugging the module (no power) since my service is over with them...

Sometimes you need to read the fine print.

Reed

trukk
04-08-05, 05:12 PM
(l) apply anal lube, and bend you over, (m) read your thoughts.

Dave's V
04-08-05, 06:01 PM
I think the "market research" applies to most companies or "discount cards" in food stores. They raise the price and then offer a discount card to track what you buy.

The V has that black box you mentioned anyway so we are screwed already. Another thread is about starting a road tax in which another monitor would be attached to your car. They will vary the gas tax by how much you drive. Of course they will be able to tell where/when you drive.

Everyone needs to write to their state senators now and express their concern about losing our privacy rights. And yes they are RIGHTS.

I've been to too many #(@#* countries that throw privacy rights out the window and tax their citizens for programs that even take away more rights. We are already paying taxes on money already taxed mulitple times.

They are also trying to mandate taxing internet and EBAY sales.

Eventually you will be monitored from the government everywhere you go.

Vrocks
04-08-05, 10:11 PM
It's a good thing they don't do anything with the info they get.... A lot of us would be in jail :yup:

Actually, I haven't shared this story which happended literally one week ago:

I was on my way back from playing golf with my brother around 5:30PM. About 2-3 minutes into our drive home a guy in our lane was drunk, high and suicidal... I called OnStar to give a "good samaritan call", they were quick and very professional. Unfortunately, about 1-2 minutes later the guy hit a guy on a motor cycle..... Of all people to hit, he managed to hit a person on a bike, :mad: and this happened just before emergency services were able to get to the intersection to stop the guy.

The bikers left leg was pulled out of the socket really bad, and turned 90 degrees to the right. I later heard form my brothers friend who's a volunteer fire fighter that he lost his leg. I don't know if they'll ask me to testify in court but about 30 other people witnessed the accident, so I doubt they'll need me ( at least they know who I am if they do need a witness).

Harley Guy
04-13-05, 05:01 PM
Vrocks,

Where in PA did this happen. You can see from my forum name that this is an especially sensative issue with me.

I am not paranoid about what OnStar may do with data from my car, but I have been debating the value of renewing my OnStar subscription. I have never used it and am not sure I see the value of just keeping it to cover emergencies. Would be glad to hear other's opinions. Worth it, or let it go?

benjet
04-13-05, 05:12 PM
I posted this in the "black box thread", but I think it deserves its own thread...


Here is onstar's terms and conditions.. they are watching you.
-------------
THE INFORMATION WE GET FROM YOUR CAR INCLUDES THINGS SUCH AS DATA ABOUT ITS OPERATION, ABOUT YOUR USE OF OnStar SERVICES, ABOUT WHERE YOUR CAR IS JUST BEFORE AND DURING REQUESTS FOR OnStar SERVICE IN YOUR CAR, AND (DEPENDING ON YOUR OnStar Equipment) DATA ABOUT ACCIDENTS INVOLVING YOUR CAR (for example, the direction from which your car was hit).
You agree that we can, subject to applicable law, use any of this information to: (a) provide OnStar services to you or your Car (including sharing that information with roadside assistance providers, emergency service providers, or others, as needed); (b) check or maintain your OnStar Equipment; (c) provide information to the maker of your Car about the Car's performance and to enable the maker of your Car to comply with law; (d) help you or managers of fleets of Cars (if your Car is part of a fleet) to maintain the Car; (e) evaluate and improve our service; (f) enforce this agreement with you or others; (g) prevent fraud or misuse of OnStar service; (h) comply with legal requirements, valid court orders and exigent circumstances; (i) protect the rights, property, or safety of you or others; (j) offer you new or additional products or services; or (k) perform market research.

-------------
NOTE: The part that gets me in the above is the "perform market research" part.. You have basically agreed to let me track you for market research purposes...


Thats why I am unplugging the module (no power) since my service is over with them...

Sometimes you need to read the fine print.

Reed

How is this different from all other cell fone co's?

Vrocks
04-13-05, 05:15 PM
Vrocks,

Where in PA did this happen. You can see from my forum name that this is an especially sensative issue with me.


Malvern PA. About 1,000ft from the Malvern Prep high school.

ctsvett
04-13-05, 08:27 PM
Ben,
Right now, in my verizon wireless Terms and Conditions, it does not say ANYTHING about market research based on my location (besides, I CAN turn off the GPS in my phone).

Can they still track me using 3 towers to triangulate my location, yes, but they are not going to be using that for market research and you DO need a court order to do that (I think)

Reed

benjet
04-13-05, 08:52 PM
Ben,
Right now, in my verizon wireless Terms and Conditions, it does not say ANYTHING about market research based on my location (besides, I CAN turn off the GPS in my phone).

Can they still track me using 3 towers to triangulate my location, yes, but they are not going to be using that for market research and you DO need a court order to do that (I think)

Reed

I disagree (well expect for the fact that I haven't read the Verizion T&C).
I'll get more evidence of this too you offline.

ctsvett
04-13-05, 10:13 PM
Your post prompted me to read the T&C from verizon... nothing in there about location and market research (but surprisingly, they can share my information to market to me- Name and address)

I love data...

Reed

DG2
04-13-05, 10:54 PM
"Market research" in the context that is listed in the Onstar disclousre documentations is refering to collecting various datad from the calls that Onstar receives and using those calls to share with a research company to find "trends" in it's customer base. They are NOT spying on us !

Example;

How many Onstar calls are coming in for food/lodging/ATM's/directions etc. What time of day does Onstar receive the most calls . GM can use a market research company in order to produce mountains of information based soley on the calls they receive. This has NOTHING to do with the claim that Onstar is watching you! They are simply using call data for research no differntly then any other company. You should see what Wal-Mart does to gather research!

In any event, my two cents on Onstar is I think it is a very good service to have. If you do a lot of driving ( like I do) it is just good to know that if you broke down in a remote area you simply push that blue button and they will find you. You cannot do that with a cell phone. In addition, if you ever crash in a remote area ( fall asleep at the wheel) Onstar will get help when your counting the birds spinning around your head. Of course if you do not have a navigation system, the directions plan is helpful.

turbojimmy
04-14-05, 06:36 AM
Forget the market research - that doesn't bother me. It's these 2:

(h) comply with legal requirements, valid court orders and exigent circumstances; (i) protect the rights, property, or safety of you or others

These are WIIIIIIIIDE open from a legal perspective. Particularly (i). Exactly how do they intend to use the data to 'protect the rights, property, or safety of you or others'. How are they making the determination that someone's rights, property, or safety are in jeopardy? Under (i), they could, for example, shut you down remotely if in their opinion, or someone else's, that the rights, property or safety of others are in jeopardy. That's the real BS with this stuff. I didn't bother replacing my OnStar equipment in my car (flood total).

Jim

LS6HVN
04-15-05, 02:31 AM
Read (h) carefully, they can record your in-car conversations (like phone tap) and use them against you in court. This happened to some one I know. Careful what ya say.:canttalk:

LS6HVN
04-15-05, 02:36 AM
Reed(ctsvette), did you post a procedure on cadillacfaq to disconnect the onstar module? My service expires this month and I'm thinkin'...

turbojimmy
04-15-05, 08:20 AM
Reed(ctsvette), did you post a procedure on cadillacfaq to disconnect the onstar module? My service expires this month and I'm thinkin'...

I bet the time is coming where it will be an integral part of the car's operation - meaning you can't disable it. Like if you tamper with your emissions now you get a MIL light.

Jim

StealthV
04-15-05, 09:40 AM
MILs are easily defeated. :sneaky: Let us hope spyware on our cars remains easy to defeat as well.

turbojimmy
04-15-05, 10:46 AM
MILs are easily defeated. :sneaky: Let us hope spyware on our cars remains easy to defeat as well.

Yes, MILs are easily defeated now. You just spoof the data the PCM is expecting to see. How long until emissions devices have unique IDs that need programmed into the PCM by dealer-only equipment like many of the body modules? When you swap out your SDM (the black box) for example, you get a MIL light that can only be cleared with the Tech II. As soon as you plug the scanner in, it tells the operator that a module has changed. You need to use the Tech II to register the new module's ID with the DIM.

As an aside, when I swapped my SDM out last week I got a tire pressure monitor error. When the ID was flashed into the DIM, it went away. Evidently that little box is keeping track of tire pressure, too. So if I were to wreck, and damage someone or their property, one could point to my negligence in maintaining my tire pressure as a factor.

It probably won't be long until emissions parts need to have unique IDs, too, that need to be flashed in by the stealer or a licensed facility. Under section (h), they could theoretically use OnStar to report modifications to the emissions systems - what was changed, the new ID of the device and who did it.

OnStar scares me. People are focused on fighting OBD-III's reporting capabilities while this OnStar thing is in the shadows with the ability to do the same thing - and much more. Unlike OBD-III, OnStar knows where you are at all times and can hear you for gawd's sake. They slip it by the general publich with its safety 'benefits'.

If I were to buy a new car I'd insist they take it out.

Jim

Logandiagnostic
04-17-05, 09:55 PM
OnStar and the 'black box' are 2 different things.

The media often calls the GM air bag SDM module the 'black box' due to a lack of a better term.

The GM air bag SDM DOES record pre-accident vehicle data.

You can have crash data recorded in both deployments and near deployments.

The GM Tech 2 cannot access the crash data. You need a very specfic tool, the Vetronix CDR. GM dealers are unable to collect the crash data.

We have the equipment to access the 'black box' crash data and it can be seen here....

http://www.airbagcrash.com

Or see this CadillacForum post.....

http://cadillacforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36792


We think every accident should have the air bag SDM crash data downloaded.



Logan Diagnostic
www.airbagcrash.com
www.crashdatainfo.com
www.ledfix.com

Art138
04-17-05, 11:27 PM
LS6HVN:

Legally no calls can be recorded unless there is a valid court order to do so; This comes under the "consenual" monitoring part of the law. This is no different than if law enforcement wanted to tap your house phone. Without a court authorized consent everything you say will be protected under that part of the law.

crowan
04-17-05, 11:32 PM
You might be interested in knowing that law enforcement uses OnStar to listen in on the occupants of vehicles who are under investigation, with a court order. They can turn your Onstar into an open channel that broadcasts all conversations in the vehicle. Onstar has gone to court to stop the practice because of the obvious negative customer service ramifications. They are also afraid of being sued by customers because, when the law is listening, OnStar will not function for the customer, thereby failing to provide service for which you have paid. The cases are ongoing.

I doubt that this forum is populated by serious felons, but it is something to think about for privacy reasons.

crowan
04-18-05, 12:21 AM
One important fact that may not have been clear in my post: When OnStar is activated remotely by law enforcement, your vehicle transmits all conversations taking place in the vehicle, not just those when you use OnStar as a cell phone.

Even if you are talking to a passener in the vehicle, or talking on your personal cell phone, your words are "on the air."

Interesting technology.

Vrocks
04-18-05, 12:28 AM
Wouldn't it be easy to place a switch in the car that can turn the power on and off to the microphone? You wouldn't have to worry about the technicalities with disabling OnStar, and no one could listen to you unless you turned the microphone on...

turbojimmy
04-18-05, 06:30 AM
OnStar and the 'black box' are 2 different things.


I understand the difference. I was using the programming required when it's replaced as an example of what 'they' could require on emissions devices. OnStar is alerted of an airbag deployment currently, so that must come from the SDM (again I understand that they're separate 'systems') so what's to prevent a little more data from being broadcast (like the rest of the data captured by the SDM - speed, steering wheel position, tire pressure, braking status)? Or what's to prevent collection of that data real-time upon request?

Jim