: Urgent! Where Is The Black Box???



V-Love
04-08-05, 11:58 AM
Where is the black box located???? CAN IT BE RESET????

turbojimmy
04-08-05, 12:01 PM
Why - what have you done?

No, it can't be reset. In the Deville it's under the console - it's a silver box clearly labeled with an air bag warning. Probably same on the CTS.

EDIT: here's a pic. You asked just as I was scanning the label on my new one.

Jim

trukk
04-08-05, 12:18 PM
Where is the black box located???? CAN IT BE RESET????

RuhhhRuoHHH.

There must be a story behind this. Please share.

Groo-V
04-08-05, 12:39 PM
For us technical neophites....what the hell is "the black box"? Anxiously awaiting to hear the story too. Sounded serious.

urbanski
04-08-05, 12:52 PM
sounds like a big "OOPS"

GNSCOTT
04-08-05, 12:59 PM
from the sounds of this post, his air bags may have already been deployed and there may be a homeless man with a shopping cart full of cans stuck in his grille.

If it was THAT bad I would drive the car off a pier into the ocean. Just tampering with it alone may be evidence of someone hiding something.

trukk
04-08-05, 01:00 PM
Heh, I'm waiting for:

"I need a good lawyer....FAST"

-Chris

Dave's V
04-08-05, 01:17 PM
It definitely doesn't sound that good. Tampering with it can only get you into potentially more trouble and you pretty much just admitted your guilty if you do tamper with it.

A lot of cars put it under the rear seat because it is usually in the center of the vehicle.

fcuk
04-08-05, 01:51 PM
For us technical neophites....what the hell is "the black box"? Anxiously awaiting to hear the story too. Sounded serious.

It is now being installed in all GM cars, it tracks a whole load of information, such as air bag deployment, speed, breaking, etc. Just another instance of DAMN big brother in our lives. Vote Libertatian! :thumbsup:

ronr
04-08-05, 02:02 PM
PCM remove and install instructions:

http://www.cadillacfaq.com/faq/answers/sm/pcm/

turbojimmy
04-08-05, 02:05 PM
PCM remove and install instructions:

http://www.cadillacfaq.com/faq/answers/sm/pcm/

It's not the PCM - it's the SDM.

Jim

ctsvett
04-08-05, 02:44 PM
The SDM is the :Inflatable Restraint Sensing and Diagnostic Module (SDM)

You do need to be more specific. If you had a problem with the airbags, you will need to access the SDM.

However, I think the PCM also logs and monitors Speed, rpms, etc in a short term buffer.

For reference, TurboJimmy is right. The SDM is located under teh center console in the interior of the car for protection.

Reed

heavymetals
04-08-05, 02:56 PM
Here is what it does::shhh:

http://www.iihs.org/fed/nhtsa_ds_akl_081804.pdf

turbojimmy
04-08-05, 03:05 PM
Usually when people say 'black box' they're referring to the SDM. The SDM is more than just the 'air bag module'. It "stores information in the few seconds before a car sensor identifies a crash and fires the air bags. The data includes the speed of the car, whether the driver was wearing a seat belt, when an air bag deployed and whether the driver used the brakes."

It's the device causing all the controversy over who owns the data and how it can be used.

See this thread:
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7037

Jim

CoupeDevilleRob
04-08-05, 03:06 PM
You need that Goldeneye satellite from the James Bond movie, take care of your blackbox and everyone else's within a 500 mile radius. LOL. But seriously bro, don't go tampering with evidence, get a good lawyer.

ctsvett
04-08-05, 03:23 PM
Here is a page from the OWNERS manual (page 7-10)...

Vehicle Data Collection and Event Data Records

Your vehicle, like other modern motor vehicles, has a
number of sophisticated computer systems that monitor
and control several aspects of the vehicle’s performance.
Your vehicle uses on-board vehicle computers to monitor
emission control components to optimize fuel economy,
to monitor conditions for airbag deployment and, if so
equipped, to provide anti-lock braking and to help the
driver control the vehicle in difficult driving situations.
Some information may be stored during regular
operations to facilitate repair of detected malfunctions;
other information is stored only in a crash or near crash
event by computer systems commonly called event data
recorders (EDR).
In a crash or near crash event, computer systems, such
as the Airbag Sensing and Diagnostic Module (SDM) in
your vehicle may record information about the condition
of the vehicle and how it was operated, such as engine
speed, brake applications, throttle position, vehicle
speed, seat belt usage, airbag readiness, airbag
performance data, and the severity of a collision.
This information has been used to improve vehicle
crash performance and may be used to improve crash
performance of future vehicles and driving safety.
Unlike the data recorders on many airplanes, these
on-board systems do not record sounds, such as
conversation of vehicle occupants.
To read this information, special equipment is needed
and access to the vehicle or the SDM is required.
GM will not access information about a crash event or
share it with others other than
• with the consent of the vehicle owner or, if the
vehicle is leased, with the consent of the lessee,
• in response to an official request of police or similar
government office,
• as part of GM’s defense of litigation through the
discovery process, or
• as required by law.
In addition, once GM collects or receives data, GM may
• use the data for GM research needs,
• make it available for research where appropriate
confidentiality is to be maintained and need is
shown, or
• share summary data which is not tied to a specific
vehicle with non-GM organizations for research
purposes.
Others, such as law enforcement, may have access to
the special equipment that can read the information
if they have access to the vehicle or SDM.
If your vehicle is equipped with OnStar, please check
the OnStar subscription service agreement or manual for
information on its operations and data collection.
----------

That is in the CTS/ CTS-V owners manual.. so technically, you have been notified by GM....

Big brother IS watching...

Reed

ctsvett
04-08-05, 03:31 PM
and adding on to that... here is onstar's terms and conditions.. they are watching too..
-------------
THE INFORMATION WE GET FROM YOUR CAR INCLUDES THINGS SUCH AS DATA ABOUT ITS OPERATION, ABOUT YOUR USE OF OnStar SERVICES, ABOUT WHERE YOUR CAR IS JUST BEFORE AND DURING REQUESTS FOR OnStar SERVICE IN YOUR CAR, AND (DEPENDING ON YOUR OnStar Equipment) DATA ABOUT ACCIDENTS INVOLVING YOUR CAR (for example, the direction from which your car was hit).
You agree that we can, subject to applicable law, use any of this information to: (a) provide OnStar services to you or your Car (including sharing that information with roadside assistance providers, emergency service providers, or others, as needed); (b) check or maintain your OnStar Equipment; (c) provide information to the maker of your Car about the Car's performance and to enable the maker of your Car to comply with law; (d) help you or managers of fleets of Cars (if your Car is part of a fleet) to maintain the Car; (e) evaluate and improve our service; (f) enforce this agreement with you or others; (g) prevent fraud or misuse of OnStar service; (h) comply with legal requirements, valid court orders and exigent circumstances; (i) protect the rights, property, or safety of you or others; (j) offer you new or additional products or services; or (k) perform market research.

-------------
NOTE: The part that gets me in the above is the "perform market research" part.. You have basically agreed to let me track you for market research purposes...


Thats why I am unplugging the module (no power) since my service is over with them...

Sometimes you need to read the fine print.

Reed

Rickerbucks
04-08-05, 03:48 PM
This begets an interesting Q?

I have not subscribed to Onstar.

Can I remove the antenna? I'd also like to know how to disable Onstar?

My view is that I OWN the car and everything about it. That being said, I would assume that insurance policies probably have fine print saying they have the right to deny a claim if I don't give them access to these computers.

:mad:

Dreamin
04-08-05, 04:04 PM
Thats why I am unplugging the module (no power) since my service is over with them...

How do you do that?

dreamcarc6
04-08-05, 04:13 PM
NOTE: The part that gets me in the above is the "perform market research" part.. You have basically agreed to let me track you for market research purposes...

Thats why I am unplugging the module (no power) since my service is over with them...

Sometimes you need to read the fine print.

Reed

How do you "unplug" it?

ctsvett
04-08-05, 04:21 PM
I will try and do the procedure this weekend (if I get time)...

My plan is to access the module (right rear of the trunk) and disconnect the 3 connectors... This will kill the entire onstar system and SHOULD NOT affect anything else. I checked the diagrams and it looks good.

Reed

Groo-V
04-08-05, 04:32 PM
I still want to hear from V Love.....what the hell happened???? Inquiring sick minds want to know!

Dave's V
04-08-05, 04:44 PM
The big question is can Cadillac use the info to prove you abused the car so they can deny your claim. What would define abuse? Would that be idling for minutes before duing a max acceleration run for 1/4 mile before slamming on the brakes?

I personally don't like all of the electronic gizmos in the cars these days. They know too much about you already. Now some states are trying to start up a road tax. They will use a transponder to track where and when your vehicle has been, then charge you a road use tax on the amount of miles you drove. Here is the link to an article. http://techdirt.com/articles/20050406/1418216_F.shtml

Dave's V
04-08-05, 04:49 PM
This begets an interesting Q?

I have not subscribed to Onstar.

Can I remove the antenna? I'd also like to know how to disable Onstar?

My view is that I OWN the car and everything about it. That being said, I would assume that insurance policies probably have fine print saying they have the right to deny a claim if I don't give them access to these computers.

:mad:

I don't know the legal side of this. While you own the car, the VIN tells the insurance company what is on it. I don't know about On Star but they might get pissed if you disable an airbag, ABS or stabilitrak.

Eventually, you'll need permission from the government to travel between states if you can afford the gas/road tax.

6104696
04-08-05, 04:50 PM
I still want to hear from V Love.....what the hell happened???? Inquiring sick minds want to know!

Maybe his lawyer advised him that it may not be a good idea to discuss this on the internet......

maydog
04-08-05, 05:48 PM
I could think of several "good" ways to garble Black Box data depending on how the data is stored. I assume that it is some type of non voliatle RAM like flash or maybe EEPROM.

Without pulling it apart and knowing what is inside your options are limited. Maybe you can procure some cesium and place it next to the box. The gamma rays should sufficiently scramble the memory over time - just wrap your nuts in lead foil and watch you face as the airbags may deploy.

heavymetals
04-08-05, 08:22 PM
From the info that I read, it is mostly for liability issues, not warranty abuse.
Ya know, safety equipment failures and what the car was doing before an accident.
Manufactures are tired of getting sued for accidents that aren't their fault.
The pilot always blames the airplane for the crash.

As far as big brother monitoring what your doing or where your going or how fast you were getting there, anything is possible. That is why Tony Soprano yanks the GPS the first chance he gets.

V-Love
04-08-05, 08:51 PM
I was just curious.... ...thats all. So the memory is stored in the silverbox by the drivers feet, right?

V-Love
04-08-05, 09:04 PM
Usually when people say 'black box' they're referring to the SDM. The SDM is more than just the 'air bag module'. It "stores information in the few seconds before a car sensor identifies a crash and fires the air bags. The data includes the speed of the car, whether the driver was wearing a seat belt, when an air bag deployed and whether the driver used the brakes."

It's the device causing all the controversy over who owns the data and how it can be used.

See this thread:
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7037

Jim


That thread doesn't work for me. Is there another way to find it?

Dreamin
04-08-05, 09:15 PM
www.airbagcrash.com

CVP33
04-08-05, 09:39 PM
How do you "unplug" it?

There is no way to unplug "it", however, you can disable it. You will need a 25ft. roll of aluminum foil, a 50ft. roll of duct tape, one coat hanger, a cheese grater, one bic disposable razor, shaving cream, a 2" diameter pvc pipe 14 inches in length, one small gerbil and a 12oz. bag of cheetoes. (do not get the spicey kind, I will explain later.)

Wait a minute, I'm getting my inventions mixed up. I'll post later and clear this up.

V_Power
04-08-05, 09:54 PM
V-Love, i think you are throwing some serious B***S*** our way. You came out saying that it was serious, and now your just curious?

What's the story?

dannystang
04-08-05, 11:32 PM
Guys are getting me paranoid.

Im going to start ripping everything but the motor out.

Dreamin
04-08-05, 11:34 PM
CVP... rubber bed-sheets... you forgot the rubber sheets... :histeric:

MikeF
04-08-05, 11:59 PM
I think it may be possible to unscrew the antenna. When I bought the Escalade the salesman had an antenna in his posket that he installed - but I wasn't watching. I am PAYING to be monitored for market research? Screw that! No renewal for me.

ctsvett
04-09-05, 01:07 AM
Ok guys.. it took about 10 minutes to make big brother go away tonight..

I posted instructions here: http://www.cadillacfaq.com/faq/answers/onstardisable/index.html

I drove around a bit, but not too long... No problems so far. The red light is gone and the buttons on the rear view DONT work...

Reed

odysseus
04-09-05, 07:58 AM
The voice commands for the Nav won't work either, if you use that feature.

dannystang
04-09-05, 08:04 AM
The Nav has voice commands?

V-Love
04-09-05, 08:39 AM
No story yet. I, like others, do not like being monitored. I will fill fellow members in when I can. I appreciate the help greatly. Does anybody know of any cases where they denied claim because of the black box (SDM right?)?

GNSCOTT
04-09-05, 12:04 PM
I remeber a case that they were able to use the black box, but there were deaths involved. I would highly dobt an insurance co. would be allowed to request this info. The black box I know only used to be installed in GM performance models, and it would be a little unfair if they are only in certain cars. It would make me go to a different manufacturer that had no black box if I got screwed out of a penny from an insurance co.

ctsvett
04-09-05, 01:27 PM
Odysseus,
The V does not have this feature from the factory (voice commands). even still, there are 2 microphones. There is one inside the mirror and one in the head liner (above the dome lights) the one that goes to the nav system is DIFFERENT from the onstar microphone.

Reed

V-Love
04-09-05, 01:53 PM
I couldn't find it. Its under the steering wheel behind the plastics??? What tools do I need to remove it???

wildwhl
04-09-05, 02:33 PM
V-love, you're amongst friends.

What's the story :hmm:

Wild

Big Brother
04-09-05, 04:00 PM
Ok guys.. it took about 10 minutes to make big brother go away tonight..

I posted instructions here: http:// (http://www.cadillacfaq.com/faq/answers/onstardisable/index.html)

I drove around a bit, but not too long... No problems so far. The red light is gone and the buttons on the rear view DONT work...

Reed

Dear Reed,

Plug it back in. Oh, and while you're at it, take down the instructions.

We'd rather not have to engage secondary protocols...

Bro

GNSCOTT
04-09-05, 04:16 PM
Bro, mind your business and go away. Damn I hate trolls.

V-Love
04-09-05, 04:49 PM
I found it. It really isn't black. Thats all I needed to know(it was buggin' me). HA!

It is located behind the shifter under the cup holders(or thereabouts). You have to take the center console off to properly access it. It is held on by three nuts between 3/8 and 7/16. The studs its mounted on are like 3" long so a hollow nut driver would work. You'll need the right tool or its a bitch.
Airbagcrash.com will diagnose it for you for $200.00 and give you the report back overnight. However, some modules have no information on them. These will be returned free of charge except shipping. They require a VIN# to access the information.? The company seemed happy to answer any questions.

I am sorry to report I am no longer on the team. She gave her life so that others may live. I LOVED that thing. It was a beauty and a beast. Now its gone. I saved no trophy pieces. Its over.

PATIENTLY WAITING FOR THE RUMORED 735 H.P. MODEL DUE OUT SOON!!!!!

GNSCOTT
04-09-05, 07:33 PM
Pics?

V-Love
04-09-05, 10:11 PM
I thought it was only the last 5 seconds at 1 second intervals!!! Airbagcrash.com is wrong?!?

Slapshot
04-09-05, 10:18 PM
My view is that I OWN the car and everything about it. That being said, I would assume that insurance policies probably have fine print saying they have the right to deny a claim if I don't give them access to these computers.

The flip-side to that is that you do not own the road, you do not have the right to endanger others or their property... Driving is not a right it is a privilege that can be denied/revoked by law enforcement or the courts for abusing that right...

We all have a responsibility to protect our cars, our rights and the rights of others...

lawfive
04-09-05, 10:25 PM
:tsucks:

ctsvett
04-09-05, 11:37 PM
Dear Reed,

Plug it back in. Oh, and while you're at it, take down the instructions.

We'd rather not have to engage secondary protocols...

Bro

Nice day down there in irvine today was it big brother? It was up here..

Now THAT'S some scarry big brother Sh*t.

Reed

Big Brother
04-10-05, 12:14 AM
Yeah, not Irvine but close enough to score. Figured either the common password or the ref email would do it.

PS: GNSCOTT: buy a sense of humor.

PPS: REED: plug it back in...

ctsvett
04-10-05, 12:18 AM
Plug it back in... NO

Reed

ctsvett
04-10-05, 12:27 AM
Hey lawfive... That was funny... Why did I think you lived in irvine?

HA

Reed

lawfive
04-10-05, 12:37 AM
Don't know... Corona, with the other dirt people.

(PS: Secondary protocols engaged! BWAHAHAHAHA!!!)

BliTzer
04-10-05, 03:05 AM
Week of March 27, 2005

So-called "Black Boxes," or small computers or computer chips, are being used increasingly by automobile manufacturers, police, insurance companies, and others, to gather evidence of speed, braking, even seat-belt useage by owners and drivers of cars and trucks. All this is being done largely without the knowledge, much less the consent, of the vehicle owner or driver. At least one state -- California -- requires automobile dealers and rental companies to inform customers if the vehicles they buy or rent contain the "electronic back seat drivers," but most states do not. A legislator in South Dakota is seeking to change that, by passing legislation that would require dealers in that state to at least inform a potential buyer that the vehicles contains a Black Box so they can make informed decisions whether they wish to have such an electronic nanny in their car.

For more on this story, see "N.D. Debates Black Box Privacy Safeguards," by James Warden, AP Writer, in Newsday.com, March 25, 2005.


The federal Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals in California, ruled the FBI cannot use a vehicle's OnStar computing system to surreptitiously listen to conversations in the vehicle, a technical feat the system allows. While this ruling appears on the surface to be a victory for privacy and against outrageous government snooping, it stopped far short of that. The court ruled on the narrow questions of whether the FBI could secretly listen in to what's going on in a vehicle equipped with OnStar, when in so doing, the FBI had to first surreptitiously disable the vehicle's computer-notification device. The dangerous implication of this federal court ruling, is that if the FBI is able to work with its technicians and those at General Motors, to ensure that in conducting its vehicular eavesdropping it won't disable the system's ability to assist in an emergency, then the Bureau can go ahead with its snooping. This is a dangerous precedent, and a clear reason people ought to be extremely wary of buying such systems.

Court to FBI: No spying on in-car computers (http://news.com.com/2100-1029-5109435.html)


Interesting.....

ctsvett
04-10-05, 09:57 PM
Listen no.. it appears... Track you, yes....

I dont want them to know where I am when I go to my secret meetings... HMMM....

Reed

MikeF
04-11-05, 12:49 AM
The electronics in the V could be used to give us all speeding tickets at the very least - anytime anywhere. Is it only me that wonders why a 400 HP car has this equipment? I plan to disable it whenever I'm on a weekend ride. The fuse diagrams don't show a fuse for the Onstar - that I can find anyway. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but that's ominous in itself.

ronr
04-13-05, 07:16 PM
More on the North Dakota law http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/03/323.asp

Logandiagnostic
04-14-05, 06:26 AM
Hmmm...sorry for the late reply from us. We are a member on this cadillacforum.com site. We just happened to stubble on to this link via a Google search.

Yes, GM air bag systems record the crash data. Typically you can get the last 5 seconds of vehicle data before a crash event. Very, very, valuable information. GM dealers cannot access the crash data with the GM Tech 2. We know, we have a GM Tech 2.

It takes a very specfic piece of equipment to access the crash data. It reqiures the Vetronix CDR crash data retrieval tool. We have one.

You also should be trained on the Vetronix CDR. We are.

Please visit our website. It has tons more information then what I can provide here in a single post....

See: http://www.airbagcrash.com

We feel that every crash should be downloaded. You can have data stored even if the bags do not deploy. Your GM dealer has no idea this data is stored in the air bag SDM. We can get the crash data...

Logan Diagnostic
www.ledfix.com
www.airbagcrash.com
www.logandieselusa.com

ronr
04-26-05, 09:23 AM
And to think we worry about a black box. This guy installed his own internet based tracking system in his car with a web cam so everyone can see what he's up to.:confused::cookoo:

http://moro.fbrtech.com/~tora/EVDO/testing.html

(it would make for some interesting "kill" footage...camera out the back of course:yup:)

BeagleBrains
04-26-05, 04:26 PM
The electronics in the V could be used to give us all speeding tickets at the very least - anytime anywhere. Is it only me that wonders why a 400 HP car has this equipment? I plan to disable it whenever I'm on a weekend ride. The fuse diagrams don't show a fuse for the Onstar - that I can find anyway. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but that's ominous in itself.
Post crash air bag activation information retrieval is on every OBD II vehicle. My Jeep includes this "crash data", as do most motor vehicles. The CTS V is not singled out because it has above average horse power.

sefa01
04-26-05, 06:26 PM
Thats why I am unplugging the module (no power) since my service is over with them...

Sometimes you need to read the fine print.

ReedI gave up OnStar, too. How do I unplug the module?

StealthV
04-26-05, 06:31 PM
I gave up OnStar, too. How do I unplug the module?

http://www.cadillacfaq.com/faq/answers/onstardisable/index.html

V-Love
04-27-05, 01:15 AM
Hmmm...sorry for the late reply from us. We are a member on this cadillacforums.com site. We just happened to stubble on to this link via a Google search.

Yes, GM air bag systems record the crash data. Typically you can get the last 5 seconds of vehicle data before a crash event. Very, very, valuable information. GM dealers cannot access the crash data with the GM Tech 2. We know, we have a GM Tech 2.

It takes a very specfic piece of equipment to access the crash data. It reqiures the Vetronix CDR crash data retrieval tool. We have one.

You also should be trained on the Vetronix CDR. We are.

Please visit our website. It has tons more information then what I can provide here in a single post....

See: http://www.airbagcrash.com (http://www.airbagcrash.com/)

We feel that every crash should be downloaded. You can have data stored even if the bags do not deploy. Your GM dealer has no idea this data is stored in the air bag SDM. We can get the crash data...

Logan Diagnostic
www.ledfix.com (http://www.ledfix.com/)
www.airbagcrash.com (http://www.airbagcrash.com/)
www.logandieselusa.com (http://www.logandieselusa.com)


LAST 5 SECONDS???

V-Love
04-27-05, 01:19 AM
HOW CAN I GET ALL THE INFORMATION RECORDED?? Not just the last 5 seconds. I find it hard to believe GM created this thing and yet they can't access it. I am not giving my Vin # to get info. That is crap to me and someday I'll let you all know how to get all the info off that thing without anonymously.

V-Love
08-25-07, 10:24 PM
I happen to have a black box fo' free if someone can use it.
I would really prefer someone that could tell me what happened?
Anybody out there can read the black box?

V-Love
08-26-07, 04:22 AM
HOW CAN I GET ALL THE INFORMATION RECORDED?? Not just the last 5 seconds. I find it hard to believe GM created this thing and yet they can't access it. I am not giving my Vin # to get info. That is crap to me and someday I'll let you all know how to get all the info off that thing without anonymously.

That day never came. I will give the Vin# to find out what happened. I was so tough back then. Now I am a a big puss.
I don't know how the data is presented but it would be nice to see.

v-ape
08-26-07, 04:38 AM
That day never came. I will give the Vin# to find out what happened. I was so tough back then. Now I am a a big puss.
I don't know how the data is presented but it would be nice to see.

I would guess its just a table with times and values (g's, throttle input, steering input, abs on/off, tcs on/off, etc (probably a big table). You could probably throw it in excel, but it is most likely in another proprietary format anyway.