: Indifferent Diff



lasstss
04-07-05, 10:59 AM
Well folks , a substantial reply. I was impressed. For those who have detonated a rear. Please forward your story. Looks like someone is interested..

Martin/Dave,

Hello, let me introduce myself, my name is William and I received both
of your inquiries through intra-company mail. As I read through the
verbage below several questions come to mind that need clarification
before any further information can be given. One important factor is
clearly understanding the nature (both noise/leaks) of the failures
listed below. It can be inferred that the failures you mention, in
regards to torque loads, below result in an inoperative differential
(catastrophic failure). Is this accurate or is some other phenomenon
occurring? As warranty information is reviewed, these failures are not
typical for the CTSV. In regards to the cast iron differential as a
possible fix to the issue mentioned; there is no part available that
fits this description, thus no part number is available to give to
dealers. Though cast iron has its pluses and minuses, the differential
designed in the CTSV comes fully tested under rigorous durability
cycles. Is there any information available as to which online forum
specifically mentioned below? Any clarification would assist in
understanding and responding with the appropriate information.

Regards,
William Deal
<dave@t-gsales.com>, <engineering@t-gsales.com>
"Bahman Haghshanas" <BHaghshanas@getragusa.com>, "Jochen Wieland" <JWieland@getragusa.com>, "Rodolfo Limas" <RLimas@getragusa.com>, "Friedemann Strasser" <strasser@getragusa.com>

haveboost
04-07-05, 11:21 AM
Slowly but surely they'll have to listen. With these large corporations there's so much red tape that it takes awhile to reach the right people.

But looking good!

trukk
04-07-05, 11:45 AM
Heh, I hope you will point them to the sticky post:

"IS YOUR REAREND SHOT" close to 12k views, and 150 posts.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16314

-Chris

lasstss
04-07-05, 03:07 PM
Well folks , a substantial reply. I was impressed. For those who have detonated a rear. Please forward your story. Looks like someone is interested..

Martin/Dave,

Hello, let me introduce myself, my name is William and I received both
of your inquiries through intra-company mail. As I read through the
verbage below several questions come to mind that need clarification
before any further information can be given. One important factor is
clearly understanding the nature (both noise/leaks) of the failures
listed below. It can be inferred that the failures you mention, in
regards to torque loads, below result in an inoperative differential
(catastrophic failure). Is this accurate or is some other phenomenon
occurring? As warranty information is reviewed, these failures are not
typical for the CTSV. In regards to the cast iron differential as a
possible fix to the issue mentioned; there is no part available that
fits this description, thus no part number is available to give to
dealers. Though cast iron has its pluses and minuses, the differential
designed in the CTSV comes fully tested under rigorous durability
cycles. Is there any information available as to which online forum
specifically mentioned below? Any clarification would assist in
understanding and responding with the appropriate information.

Regards,
William Deal
<dave@t-gsales.com>, <engineering@t-gsales.com>
"Bahman Haghshanas" <BHaghshanas@getragusa.com>, "Jochen Wieland" <JWieland@getragusa.com>, "Rodolfo Limas" <RLimas@getragusa.com>, "Friedemann Strasser" <strasser@getragusa.com>




Anyone who has blown a rear, e mail these guys... Help us all along.. Squeaky wheel gets the grease...

Florian
04-07-05, 04:53 PM
I would be the "Dave" in that reply. I wrote them as well and they replied in less than 10 days. Get on em and stay on em and theyll have to address the issue in full, instead of lipservice

Florian

lasstss
04-07-05, 05:21 PM
I would be the "Dave" in that reply. I wrote them as well and they replied in less than 10 days. Get on em and stay on em and theyll have to address the issue in full, instead of lipservice

Florian

Youre the Dave. I was kind of baffled on that one. Thats good..:thumbsup:

lasstss
04-21-05, 04:32 PM
Final reply from Getrag... an answer, yet non answer..:hmm:


Martin,

While it is very important as well as appreciated for information to
flow back from customers of our supplied products to GM, it is of
greater significance that the proper lines of communication are not
completely bypassed. As part of our warranty analysis it is important
to view a representative sample of parts that are occurring through
warranty. With this in mind, certain differentials that are exchanged
at dealerships are selected to be returned to the GM supplier for root
cause and corrective action. Rest assure, we are actively working with
GM on any issue that arises throughout the driveline that relates to the
differential. This may include but is not limited to durability,
reliability, and integrity to the design intent. When customer failures
are reported/resolved at dealerships, several avenues are available
throughout the GM service organization which allow feedback to be
presented to the responsible parties. When these avenues are
incorporated, the appropriate changes can be made to ensure satisfied
customers. Once again, thanks for the information...

Regards,
William Deal

Reliability Engineer
Getrag Corporation

urbanski
04-21-05, 05:02 PM
Final reply from Getrag... an answer, yet non answer..:hmm:


Martin,
...With this in mind, certain differentials that are exchanged
at dealerships are selected to be returned to the GM supplier for root
cause and corrective action. Rest assure, we are actively working with
GM on any issue that arises throughout the driveline that relates to the
differential. This may include but is not limited to durability,
reliability, and integrity to the design intent. ...

BS

Lass...reply to this standard party line....GM is doing SQUAT to address this. There is no new fix for 06. StealthV HAS the pics of the iron diff, either he's blind or stupid to deny it exists.

Ask this guy just how many diffs GM has sent them to analyze....ask them why it's only rated for 310 ft/lbs when the car makes way more than that. Where is our fix Getrag?

Dave's V
04-21-05, 06:29 PM
The Dana 44 on the GTO isn't holding up much better either. There are 4 pages of a rear end failed post on ls2gto.

onebadcad
04-21-05, 06:59 PM
As an aside, I e-mailed Mark Laneve and questioned why only some V-owners have received the 7yr/100k extended drivetrain warranty-I reminded him we all have the same product/component. He gave a canned reply and said an Area Manager would be contacting me-that was a week ago and I am still waiting. He completely ignored my comments regading the high percentage of documented failures. IMHO, GM will not take an action until they are forced to do such (i.e. accidents, deaths, CTS-V owners' sponsored riots, etc). I am in for any solution, GB, class-action, covert assault, etc..., as at 12,xxx miles, I am driving on borrowed time. Did I forget to mention its still a great car!!!

lasstss
04-21-05, 08:52 PM
As an aside, I e-mailed Mark Laneve and questioned why only some V-owners have received the 7yr/100k extended drivetrain warranty-I reminded him we all have the same product/component. He gave a canned reply and said an Area Manager would be contacting me-that was a week ago and I am still waiting. He completely ignored my comments regading the high percentage of documented failures. IMHO, GM will not take an action until they are forced to do such (i.e. accidents, deaths, CTS-V owners' sponsored riots, etc). I am in for any solution, GB, class-action, covert assault, etc..., as at 12,xxx miles, I am driving on borrowed time. Did I forget to mention its still a great car!!!

Call Rachel Hennesy

866-932-4368X 39019 Got my extended from her. 7 yr 100k. Express your concerns. Ask what they can do about it.

BTW. the class action can be done individually also. See previous info and contact.

Rich H
04-21-05, 09:10 PM
I am in total agreement that GM needs to be treating everyone with this car the same way - whether they have had a problem yet with the diff or not. However, I have tried to get the 7 yr 100,000 mile warranty as well and it seems that they have completely clammed up. Unless you were in touch with a few specific individuals at the Cadillac Customer Assistance Center earlier this year it's too late now. I think they know that dissatisfaction with the drivetrain is spreading fast amongst the owners, particularly on this website, and it's going to cost them. However, the bigger cost to them will be their reputation if they don't act soon. I believe the only way all of us are going to be treated fairly is to band together

Vrocks
04-21-05, 09:38 PM
Martin/Dave,

Hello, let me introduce myself, my name is William and I received both
of your inquiries through intra-company mail. As I read through the
verbage below several questions come to mind that need clarification
before any further information can be given. One important factor is
clearly understanding the nature (both noise/leaks) of the failures
listed below. It can be inferred that the failures you mention, in
regards to torque loads, below result in an inoperative differential
(catastrophic failure). Is this accurate or is some other phenomenon
occurring? As warranty information is reviewed, these failures are not
typical for the CTSV. In regards to the cast iron differential as a
possible fix to the issue mentioned; there is no part available that
fits this description, thus no part number is available to give to
dealers. Though cast iron has its pluses and minuses, the differential
designed in the CTSV comes fully tested under rigorous durability
cycles. Is there any information available as to which online forum
specifically mentioned below? Any clarification would assist in
understanding and responding with the appropriate information.

Regards,
William Deal



I checked with the dealer that I leased my V through about diff failures on the V's they sold. Of the 12 CTS-V's they sold, not one has been in for a rear differential problem (failure). This makes me suspect that the few ( 25 or so ) members on this board with diff problems have been unlucky.

Or, if you're driving the car so hard off the line that you're experiencing severe wheel hop... and during 1 - 2 shifts, that the driving style is causing the failures. If it's possible, I'd be willing to take a fellow CTS-V owner in my area for a test drive in my V, that way we could compare our driving behavior.

Dave's V
04-21-05, 09:56 PM
I checked with the dealer that I leased my V through about diff failures on the V's they sold. Of the 12 CTS-V's they sold, not one has been in for a rear differential problem (failure). This makes me suspect that the few ( 25 or so ) members on this board with diff problems have been unlucky.

Or, if you're driving the car so hard off the line that you're experiencing severe wheel hop... and during 1 - 2 shifts, that the driving style is causing the failures. If it's possible, I'd be willing to take a fellow CTS-V owner in my area for a test drive in my V, that way we could compare our driving behavior.

I agree with you on one point. The wheel hop is probably causing the rear end to fail, possibly the "parade clunk" also.

But I question what any dealer tells me. No one that works for Cadillac will admit there is a problem. I think it is some bad luck and poor modding to fix the wheel hop or clunk. I wonder how many of the 30 cars with rear ends failed were modded. I know I bought mine with 661 miles on it so it was probably driven like a rental car during test drives and dealer use. I wouldn't be surprised if it wheel hopped like crazy.

But, we all paid around $48k for this car so it should not have this "normal" driveline traits. GTO rear ends have also been failing, although they use a Dana 44. Chances are that if you let this car wheel hop every day, your rear end will not last long. I noticed a big difference in tire life from the F1s. Anything from 5,000 to 20,000. I have 3k on mine and they look decent. Usually, wheel hop will cause short tire life.

We shouldn't have to baby this car though. What is the point of owning a 400hp car if you can't use every horse once in a while.

People compare our rear ends to the race cars and why they don't fail. My guess is because they change them often and you probably couldn't here them or really care to here them whine.

The regular CTS has had its share of rear end failures which the rear end should be able to handle either V-6.

I believe the poll on this board is only a very small minority of V owners. I don't think all 3 or 4000 V owners come to this board. My guess would be no more than 200 or around 5% of the Vs.

People that modded their cars and complain legally to Cadillac will get shot down in a heartbeat. Then they'll be out of lawyer costs. I'm sure Cadillac would win. They have Lawyers that live for these arguements.

I still love this car though.

Playdrv4me
04-21-05, 10:07 PM
The Dana 44 on the GTO isn't holding up much better either. There are 4 pages of a rear end failed post on ls2gto.

Thats because the Dana44 is trash. I had them in Jeeps for a few years and they were absolute crap. Whined like the dickens and were frequently a point of frustration for many Jeep owners.

Getrag units are much better.

Vrocks
04-21-05, 10:31 PM
I agree with you on one point. The wheel hop is probably causing the rear end to fail, possibly the "parade clunk" also.

1. But I question what any dealer tells me. No one that works for Cadillac will admit there is a problem.

2. But, we all paid around $48k for this car so it should not have this "normal" driveline traits.

3. We shouldn't have to baby this car though. What is the point of owning a 400hp car if you can't use every horse once in a while.


1. I should have pointed out that I've know the owner for 25 years, and the Service manager for 10yrs. In this one case, I know they're telling me the truth but at the same time, other V's in my area seem to be babied ( no on I've seen will even remotely get on it ).

2. For them to call the trait "normal" is a bit of BS. "Normal", would be a hardly noticable noise, at a very small speed range. Being able to hear it over the stereo at all speeds isn't "normal". I'd be very very pissed off if my V had the same problems as some of the other members. My first V had transmission whine, perhaps some people are confusing diff noise with their transmission?

3. You're right, we shouldn't have to baby the car, and I don't. I had her sideways full throttle in 1st with a power shift into second two times today. :D

lasstss
04-21-05, 10:36 PM
People that modded their cars and complain legally to Cadillac will get shot down in a heartbeat. Then they'll be out of lawyer costs. I'm sure Cadillac would win. They have Lawyers that live for these arguements.

Not true, the class action on the differential for those who have replaced it is no cost to the consumer. THe people that I posted, do this on contingency. Nothing lost, much to gain.

Rich H
04-21-05, 10:56 PM
The issue is not solely with the differential on this car. The entire drivetrain has many issues due to several components that were not adequately tested during the development of the car IMHO. You can't predict the long term failures over the next 5 years or more using the failure numbers posted on this board for 1 year of production. The drivetrain of every car I've owned to date has lasted for the life of the vehicle (except for universal joints & minor maintenance items) and I usually keep my cars for more than 10 years. Hearing unusual noises from underneath (clunking & banging for most and rear end whining for some) is not a good sign that this car's drivetrain is going to last 10 years.

Cadillac owes all of us at least a 7 yr 100,000 mile warranty on every part of the drivetrain from the dual mass flywheel to the rear wheels.

Dave's V
04-21-05, 11:27 PM
The issue is not solely with the differential on this car. The entire drivetrain has many issues due to several components that were not adequately tested during the development of the car IMHO. You can't predict the long term failures over the next 5 years or more using the failure numbers posted on this board for 1 year of production. The drivetrain of every car I've owned to date has lasted for the life of the vehicle (except for universal joints & minor maintenance items) and I usually keep my cars for more than 10 years. Hearing unusual noises from underneath (clunking & banging for most and rear end whining for some) is not a good sign that this car's drivetrain is going to last 10 years.

Cadillac owes all of us at least a 7 yr 100,000 mile warranty on every part of the drivetrain from the dual mass flywheel to the rear wheels.

What about us who purchased an extended warranty when we bought the car? Mabye they'll give me a Corsa Exhaust :thumbsup:. If that is the case, I'll demand some money back. Car has a great motor, brakes, clutch and tranny for a drivetrain but the rear dif got left out.

They can predict long term failures if they test their cars. Did they just base their V tests on the regular CTS? Either the rear axle wasn't whining, they didn't do the test or they were deaf.

Rich H
04-21-05, 11:41 PM
I'll agree to the great motor and brakes. It doesn't get any better than the V! The jury is still out on the tranny (excuse the expression). I'm having some difficulty shifting into third without some gear clashing - although not quite bad enough to take it to the dealer yet.

wildwhl
04-22-05, 01:52 AM
:hmm: the diff fails on V's, base CTS, better CTS, and SRX all the same.

Yes, some of us have been more unlucky than others. I don't abuse my car (can't afford to) and yet diff #3 seems to be handling the mods (what mods?) just fine over the last 2000 miles. Diffs 1 and 2 started whining within this period of time.

I'd like the extended warranty but I'm sure it is not valid since Maggie moved in :burn:

ahahnu
04-22-05, 08:57 AM
There are way too many factors in all this- is your car modded is it not, do you run stock tires, wheel hop etc. It is the same reason too many companies won't make parts for these cars, there are too few of them, and they are already being changed. I really wanted to mod this car, the engine, and CTSV05 AWHK, however if that is going to pose a threat to my warranty, or create more damage I get a little worried. Like the rest of you I shelled out some major duckets for this car, and am starting to get disappointed. I still love it to death, but my rear is starting to whine, and oil changes at the dealer are $90. I think that is obsurd. Maybe its buyers remorse, but the whole reason GM pulled me away from an M3 or something along those lines is turning out to be crap. I apologize for ranting, but yous are the only ones who understands (sob) thank you for listening.

As Wild said (below) THANK YOU to the guys who do make a difference with this car either by making or selling products or just good old fashioned advice.

wildwhl
04-22-05, 09:33 AM
ahahnu -

It's OK, we understand (group hug here).

For me, the first diff went before any mods were done to the car (OK, CAGS!) and before I was brave enough to really drive it hard. Once the dealer ordered the new diff and before it was installed - well - then I went to town and basically the only clutch drops and what I would call abusive driving that has been done to my V was during the month it took for the dealer to get diff #2 delivered.

#2 was during a period where most every trip in my V included my infant son. Very rarely was I alone or "racing", with a couple of incidents I suppose...go figure.

The fact is the diff fails on all the platforms it is used on within the Cadillac lineup, regardless of driving factors and mods, IMHO. There is a QC or engineering FUBAR somewhere here. Will (bankrupt?) GM ever admit it? Nope.

We still must apply pressure where necessary and I thank lasstss for his efforts here.

Wild :burn: out

Florian
04-22-05, 11:59 AM
:yeah: I agree with the above quote, GM is toe-ing the party line....If it wasnt a problem, why would there be TSB's on the rearends and why would Getrag and GM be inspecting the CTS-V's rear diffs on repairs. I work in the automotive field DIRECTLY with the engineers that do the QC work for other GM vehicles and product lines and they have all said that they rarely QC more than 2 or 3 parts (from the field) after a PPAP. The parts are to be 100% QC'd by the supplier based on the GM spec. Now heres the rub....is it GM being cheap and just using (specifying) the base CTS rear in our car? or is it shoddy work at Getrag? Its tough to speculate, but my .02 says GM tried to sneak one by...who knows for sure.....just speculation.

Florian

benjet
04-22-05, 12:07 PM
Now heres the rub....is it GM being cheap and just using (specifying) the base CTS rear in our car?

Ok everyone say it with me....

The base CTS and V rears are NOT the same unit. The base CTS (besides having different gearing) is NOT LSD, the V is.

Florian
04-22-05, 12:12 PM
Ben....

right-o....my bad. :banghead:

Florian

wildwhl
04-22-05, 06:20 PM
Ok everyone say it with me....

The base CTS and V rears are NOT the same unit. The base CTS (besides having different gearing) is NOT LSD, the V is.

Ben -

Do they not use the same case? If so, then, well, at least to me, the case seems to be the problem, not the internals. :confused: