: pig in slop



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philistine
09-07-13, 12:46 AM
Weekend just isn't long enough...

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-09-06232231_zps96ee0b25.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-09-06232231_zps96ee0b25.jpg.html)

brngrhd
09-07-13, 09:15 AM
Lucky!!!! IIRC you're going with a McLeod right? What flywheel and throw out/slave?

Heavybody
09-07-13, 09:48 AM
My question is what parts are still in your car??


And I hope you don't need it for Monday!

barrok69
09-07-13, 11:23 AM
That diff looks massive compared to the size of the car. Nice optical illusion :)

Looks like you have a bunch of work to do !

philistine
09-07-13, 12:16 PM
Went with the Katech LS9x clutch, 12lb aluminum flywheel, stock slave. I have the exhaust, entire drivetrain and cradle removed. Got the clutch and bellhousing bolted back up. I put some shifter bandaids in there from some bushings I got from PISNUOFF along with the Home Depot bushings - it's really tight now!

I'm installing the CS 8.8 complete turnkey kit. Then gonna drop the gas tank and interrogate the fuel system with a DW300 pump, Racetronix hotwire, trapdoor, and new a new bulkhead connector for the fuel bucket etc.

I got some DEI tunnel shielding to wrap the trans tunnel - it's sticky back but very stiff stuff so gonna form it and bolt it in. There are a few other odds/ends to get off my work desk and install - spherical RSM, brakes etc.

I'm waiting for other parts to come in...new Revshift MMs since my headers torched the old ones (weren't shielded), new Tick Bleeder, and hopefully the CS trailing arms come in soon.

I work in 2 modes...fast get-er-done mode, and slow beer drinking having fun wrenching in the garage with loud music mode. It'll be down for at least another week.

FuzzyLogic
09-07-13, 12:29 PM
What kind of bulkhead connector and trapdoor?

philistine
09-07-13, 02:08 PM
What kind of bulkhead connector and trapdoor?

I purchased the following from Racetronix for the wiring:
BCWS-001 - bulkhead connector wire kit
BCA-4W - spare 4-way connector in case I mess up the connector
RCS-001 - connector for intank pump
WR-TEW-10-0-25 - 10awg black wire
WR-TEW-10-2-25 - 10awg red wire

Trapdoor hardware:
gasket - FDA SILICONE RUBBER SHEET 1/16" THICK 12" X 12" SQUARE FOOD GRADE HIGH TEMP
trap door cover - 12 ga 12" x 18" 304 2B Finish Stainless Steel Sheet
fastening nuts - NEW PEM CLSS-032-2 SELF CLINCHING NUT , 10-32 THREAD ( 75 PC. LOT )
screws - Stainless Steel Phillips Pan Head Machine Screw 10/32 x 3/8 Qty-25

I also got a 16 gauge air nibbler.

Basically, I'm going to go directly from the pump to the bulkhead connector and directly to the hotwire kit. I'll have to modify the current hotwire kit for the new bulkhead connection. After I get all that done, with any luck I'll fab up a trap door. It will be sealed and easy to access. The new bulkhead connector enables the addition of another fuel pump if/when the time comes. I will also eliminate the stock thin wire in the process.

Edit: Hey Fuzzy, that writeup when you installed the Revshift cradle bushings was very handy when I dropped my cradle - thanks!

AAIIIC
09-07-13, 02:15 PM
Well, at least if you don't get the V done this weekend you can just drive the police cruiser. It's always good to have a 2nd car when you've got big projects going on!

philistine
09-07-13, 05:16 PM
Here's some car porn:

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-09-07122425_zpseb5a244c.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-09-07122425_zpseb5a244c.jpg.html)
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-09-07122437_zps1df47bec.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-09-07122437_zps1df47bec.jpg.html)
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-09-07122451_zps673284df.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-09-07122451_zps673284df.jpg.html)
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-09-07122507_zps35e6a421.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-09-07122507_zps35e6a421.jpg.html)
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-09-07133445_zps66f1e348.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-09-07133445_zps66f1e348.jpg.html)
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-09-07133630_zpsa1286c46.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-09-07133630_zpsa1286c46.jpg.html)
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-09-07133640_zps985721ce.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-09-07133640_zps985721ce.jpg.html)
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-09-07133653_zpsf6e5b0d7.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-09-07133653_zpsf6e5b0d7.jpg.html)
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-09-07133705_zps4c3cf150.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-09-07133705_zps4c3cf150.jpg.html)

FuzzyLogic
09-07-13, 06:04 PM
I purchased the following from Racetronix for the wiring:
BCWS-001 - bulkhead connector wire kit
BCA-4W - spare 4-way connector in case I mess up the connector
RCS-001 - connector for intank pump
WR-TEW-10-0-25 - 10awg black wire
WR-TEW-10-2-25 - 10awg red wire

Trapdoor hardware:
gasket - FDA SILICONE RUBBER SHEET 1/16" THICK 12" X 12" SQUARE FOOD GRADE HIGH TEMP
trap door cover - 12 ga 12" x 18" 304 2B Finish Stainless Steel Sheet
fastening nuts - NEW PEM CLSS-032-2 SELF CLINCHING NUT , 10-32 THREAD ( 75 PC. LOT )
screws - Stainless Steel Phillips Pan Head Machine Screw 10/32 x 3/8 Qty-25

I also got a 16 gauge air nibbler.

Basically, I'm going to go directly from the pump to the bulkhead connector and directly to the hotwire kit. I'll have to modify the current hotwire kit for the new bulkhead connection. After I get all that done, with any luck I'll fab up a trap door. It will be sealed and easy to access. The new bulkhead connector enables the addition of another fuel pump if/when the time comes. I will also eliminate the stock thin wire in the process.

Edit: Hey Fuzzy, that writeup when you installed the Revshift cradle bushings was very handy when I dropped my cradle - thanks!

Glad it helped! I'll probably reference it when I do a front Revshift control arm bushing thread. They've been installed for about two weeks now--I was waiting for Revshift to announce them before I posted. By the way, make sure you lubricated the metal sleeve on the upper control arm bushings. If you don't, they'll start squeaking. If you can move the control arms with your hands and don't hear any sound, then you should be good.

http://i1345.photobucket.com/albums/p663/Fuzzylog1c/Revshift%20Front%20Control%20Arm%20Bushings/DSC01399_zps577b3452.jpg (http://s1345.photobucket.com/user/Fuzzylog1c/media/Revshift%20Front%20Control%20Arm%20Bushings/DSC01399_zps577b3452.jpg.html)

I thought for a minute there that you were going to buy a sealed, stainless steel trap door for the back seat of the car. I'm in the market for one, should you locate a good one. I'm definitely considering purchasing those connectors for the tank. Right now, the debate in my head is whether to go with a DW300 or a Walbro 450 pump. I'm concerned about them overheating in the stock tank, though.

Is that an iron or aluminum 8.8? Which differential option did you pick? Have you considered running a spherical billet bushing in the front?

philistine
09-07-13, 07:36 PM
Is that an iron or aluminum 8.8? Which differential option did you pick? Have you considered running a spherical billet bushing in the front?

Those front arms look good! You'll have to post your impressions on them soon.

I have the Iron 8.8" Truetrac, 3:73 gears. I cleaned and generously lubricated all the bushings - good call though, I had it loosely bolted then tore it apart and lubed it real good.

Regarding the fuel mod - I chose the DW300 for the low ampere load. I'm having all sorts of issues with the 340lph drop in tank in my other car. I originally ordered a bunch of stuff to fix that problem with Racetronix. The wiring is a little more robust on the s2k and that pump is causing all sorts of problems and will absolutely melt 18awg when wired to a relay from the battery. I don't want to repeat that issue with the V.

The limiting factor going with a larger pump is the wiring you have going to it. A Walbro 255 and DW300 is very safe. Once you get past the wiring then it's the limitations of the bucket. A much larger pump is more likely to overheat and cavitate because it is beyond the design of the OEM bucket. That is where you have to run a return line. Just a FYI...the stock bulkhead connector is good for 13-13.5amps and it's a real POS.

What is this spherical bushing you speak of?

FuzzyLogic
09-07-13, 10:39 PM
Correction: none of the products I was referring to fit our cars, but I'll keep looking. Maybe something like this solid aluminum bushing:

http://www.vintageperformancemotorcars.com/differentialkit.htm

philistine
09-08-13, 12:37 AM
Hmm, I see what you are talking about. The CS 8.8 kit differentials eliminate the famous front bushing fiasco. It is all metal contact. I must say that if there is any incredulity about the fitment of the kit...rest assured, Max did his homework - fits perfect! The measurements to get that bracket dead-nuts must have been a pain.

The fuel tank drops right down once you have the cradle out.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-09-07230633_zps28519056.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-09-07230633_zps28519056.jpg.html)
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-09-07230547_zps7f7aa4d2.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-09-07230547_zps7f7aa4d2.jpg.html)

Just unbolt the 2 strap bolts and done - it's just wire management after that. I put my raceramp wheel cribs under there to hold it so I can work on it. I should mention that I was so confident that I could bang that ring off to access the fuel bucket - fail! That phuckin sob pos mfer wouldn't give. I gotta check around for a rental but I did order one from Amazon. Doesn't really interfere with the other crap I gotta do but damn...I really got personal with that locking ring - had to walk away.

FuzzyLogic
09-08-13, 07:54 AM
Hmm, I see what you are talking about. The CS 8.8 kit differentials eliminate the famous front bushing fiasco. It is all metal contact. I must say that if there is any incredulity about the fitment of the kit...rest assured, Max did his homework - fits perfect! The measurements to get that bracket dead-nuts must have been a pain.

Are you sure about that metal-to-metal contact?

http://ls1tech.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v/1609709-need-help-8-8-install-front-bushings-diff.html

philistine
09-08-13, 11:16 AM
Are you sure about that metal-to-metal contact?

http://ls1tech.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v/1609709-need-help-8-8-install-front-bushings-diff.html

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-09-08101131_zps7ec621be.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-09-08101131_zps7ec621be.jpg.html)
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-09-08101148_zpsc39d77db.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-09-08101148_zpsc39d77db.jpg.html)

Check it out...all metal contact and tight fit.

jclayc
09-08-13, 12:42 PM
Wow, that 8.8 & bracket looks great... definitely car porn

Fuzzy - what size/where did you get that single bolt holding your upper control arms in?


Glad it helped! I'll probably reference it when I do a front Revshift control arm bushing thread. They've been installed for about two weeks now--I was waiting for Revshift to announce them before I posted. By the way, make sure you lubricated the metal sleeve on the upper control arm bushings. If you don't, they'll start squeaking. If you can move the control arms with your hands and don't hear any sound, then you should be good.

http://i1345.photobucket.com/albums/p663/Fuzzylog1c/Revshift%20Front%20Control%20Arm%20Bushings/DSC01399_zps577b3452.jpg (http://s1345.photobucket.com/user/Fuzzylog1c/media/Revshift%20Front%20Control%20Arm%20Bushings/DSC01399_zps577b3452.jpg.html)

FuzzyLogic
09-08-13, 02:03 PM
jclayc--those are two wrenches. See:

http://i1345.photobucket.com/albums/p663/Fuzzylog1c/Revshift%20Front%20Control%20Arm%20Bushings/DSC01414_zps614c8a78.jpg (http://s1345.photobucket.com/user/Fuzzylog1c/media/Revshift%20Front%20Control%20Arm%20Bushings/DSC01414_zps614c8a78.jpg.html)

http://i1345.photobucket.com/albums/p663/Fuzzylog1c/Revshift%20Front%20Control%20Arm%20Bushings/DSC01448_zps46e6906f.jpg (http://s1345.photobucket.com/user/Fuzzylog1c/media/Revshift%20Front%20Control%20Arm%20Bushings/DSC01448_zps46e6906f.jpg.html)

If you're asking me for the part number on the bolt, I unfortunately don't know it.

----------

[/COLOR]
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-09-08101131_zps7ec621be.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-09-08101131_zps7ec621be.jpg.html)
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-09-08101148_zpsc39d77db.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-09-08101148_zpsc39d77db.jpg.html)

Check it out...all metal contact and tight fit.

That is awesome.

AAIIIC
09-08-13, 04:58 PM
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-09-08101131_zps7ec621be.jpg
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-09-08101148_zpsc39d77db.jpg

Check it out...all metal contact and tight fit.
There are still bushings in there, though, as seen in your 2nd picture here:

Here's some car porn:

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-09-07122437_zps1df47bec.jpg
Those are the bushings that lollygagger was asking about in the thread that Fuzzy linked from ls1tech.com, and those bushings could be replaced by something like the ones he linked here:

Correction: none of the products I was referring to fit our cars, but I'll keep looking. Maybe something like this solid aluminum bushing:

http://www.vintageperformancemotorcars.com/differentialkit.htm
Assuming the front bushings are normal 8.8" IRS bushings, then aluminum bushings like this should work just fine. There are a number of companies that make them - Full Tilt Boogie Racing, Maximum Motorsports, etc.

philistine
09-08-13, 05:19 PM
Ahh, for some reason I thought it was in reference to the bushing on the old differential - the front that many have replaced. The smaller bracket on the 8.8" clearly has bushings sandwiched in there normal (perpendicular) to where the OEM was on the old differential. Other than that the only bushings left are in the cradle itself where you slide the 2 bolts through to top CS bracket.

FuzzyLogic
09-08-13, 06:28 PM
There are still bushings in there, though, as seen in your 2nd picture here:

Those are the bushings that lollygagger was asking about in the thread that Fuzzy linked from ls1tech.com, and those bushings could be replaced by something like the ones he linked here:

Assuming the front bushings are normal 8.8" IRS bushings, then aluminum bushings like this should work just fine. There are a number of companies that make them - Full Tilt Boogie Racing, Maximum Motorsports, etc.

Any idea whether there's an option for the rear bushings on the 8.8 IRS?

philistine
09-08-13, 08:06 PM
A little progress...

The trapdoor access has been cut. I have the gas tank lifted into position. There is enough room to remove the fuel lines and pull out the bucket. I have to fit the ring removal tool to make sure that works - waiting for that part to come in. Once fitment is confirmed, it's all monkey work fabricating the cover and I have all the parts here to complete that.

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-09-08185727_zps4521eab3.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-09-08185727_zps4521eab3.jpg.html)

FuzzyLogic
09-08-13, 08:17 PM
If you find a ring removal tool that works, let me know. I bought one that was too big and sold it back on eBay a month or two ago.

philistine
09-08-13, 08:31 PM
Fuzzy - what size/where did you get that single bolt holding your upper control arms in?

http://i1345.photobucket.com/albums/p663/Fuzzylog1c/Revshift%20Front%20Control%20Arm%20Bushings/DSC01399_zps577b3452.jpg (http://s1345.photobucket.com/user/Fuzzylog1c/media/Revshift%20Front%20Control%20Arm%20Bushings/DSC01399_zps577b3452.jpg.html)


jclayc--those are two wrenches.

^^^This :histeric:

brngrhd
09-08-13, 09:41 PM
If you find a ring removal tool that works, let me know. I bought one that was too big and sold it back on eBay a month or two ago.

Hammer and screwdriver works great

FuzzyLogic
09-08-13, 09:50 PM
Hammer and screwdriver works great

Not in my experience. You can wreck the ring, even with something fatter like a crowbar and a hammer.

philistine
09-08-13, 11:12 PM
Yeah I'm done with the hammer and screwdriver method - results vary and it wasn't happening for me. Regarding the pem self clinching nuts...no luck. I have a sample piece that I cut out and the metal is just too thin. I drilled and pressed them in perfect without distorting the metal...eventually driving the screw in there spins the self-clinching nut out. My test piece looks like swiss cheese. I took a thicker piece of metal and it clinches perfectly.

I could dip them in JB weld and possibly get them to stick. The shear strength just isn't high enough with that low contact surface area.

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/2013-09-08220209_zps7c664569.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/2013-09-08220209_zps7c664569.jpg.html)
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/2013-09-08220544_zps8e5da94c.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/2013-09-08220544_zps8e5da94c.jpg.html)

JB weld test piece:
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/2013-09-08222515_zps9f997b10.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/2013-09-08222515_zps9f997b10.jpg.html)

Edit: Gonna use a sheet metal punch. My standard drill bits were chewing the thin sheet metal too much. That should solve the problem.

thebigjimsho
09-08-13, 11:37 PM
Put some shoes on...

philistine
09-09-13, 12:14 AM
I thought for a minute there that you were going to buy a sealed, stainless steel trap door for the back seat of the car. I'm in the market for one, should you locate a good one.

Fuzzy, I don't think you are going to find a pre-fabbed stainless steel trap door. You are still going to have to cut/nibble an access area. I took measurements and made templates. The metal in there is stamped and not flat. After you cut, you have to straighten it out - ding hammer works ok. I'm going with a 1/16" high temp gasket with a 1/2" lip sealing area around the opening. Once I confirm the ring-tool fits then it's drilling holes for the self-clinching nuts (that don't self clinch I should mention).

I'll make another template of the as-built hole opening and then trace over the stainless steel sheet I have. I'll overlap that trace by 1/2" around the periphery and cut the access door. I'll mark the location of the pem nuts with contact dye and drill the holes in the stainless steel door. What you will see in the end should be a nice piece of stainless steel with a 1/2" fillet on the corners and with screws along the edges fastening it to the frame.

Once that is all done...sound deadening material the entire backseat area.

Pic of simple template I made for the hole opening:
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-09-08231912_zps724c3550.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-09-08231912_zps724c3550.jpg.html)

I took some reference measurements where to place the template for tracing to make the cut-out.

FuzzyLogic
09-09-13, 09:21 AM
I recommend two layers of something like b-quiet, making sure to follow the driveline into the trunk. Then you will find that one layer of Luxury Liner Pro will fit over that. I've still got my back seat out--I want to add a second layer under there, but the seat bottom won't latch with it in place. Thinking about a couple of options, including cutting a 0.25" slit in the foam seat bottom to create a void with which to insert the second layer.

AAIIIC
09-09-13, 09:45 AM
Any idea whether there's an option for the rear bushings on the 8.8 IRS?
As installed in a Mustang, yes - those same shops that I mentioned before do all of the various bushings. But those bushings don't apply when installing the 8.8" into our cradle.

jclayc
09-09-13, 03:28 PM
^^^This :histeric:

*L* ok, ok, the socket looked like a single bolt

rand49er
09-10-13, 07:58 AM
"Car porn" is right. Love the pics in this thread. Good stuff.

philistine
09-10-13, 11:33 AM
"Car porn" is right. Love the pics in this thread. Good stuff.

I got some good direction from Frostbite on LS1tech about a fuel system upgrade. Now that everything is removed from under the car and access to the fuel tank, I can see what I'm getting into. I'm not going to do dual pumps right now which is the reason for the trap door - add more later when FI comes.

I'm building a shopping list of parts. Definitely gonna run new fuel lines. The major drawbacks of the stock system is no return line and FPR is actually in the friggin bucket! This is old news for a few out there.

philistine
09-12-13, 01:55 AM
If you find a ring removal tool that works, let me know. I bought one that was too big and sold it back on eBay a month or two ago.

Eff me! The one I purchased from Amazon doesn't fit:
OTC 6599 Universal Fuel Sender Lock Tool - doesn't fit!!!

I'm sending it back and trying a different one from ebay. Just a FYI, I did get the bucket out while the tank is dropped but that isn't the point. I want to be able to remove it from the trap door with a tool so I don't bang the s*it out of my locking ring in the future.

Got the fuel parts mapped out for the upgrade - just have to leave some room with the wiring to incorporate a Hobbs switch for the secondary fuel pump.

Fuzzy, the fuel pump wiring at best is 16awg, it could be as high as 18 awg to the stock bulkhead - I haven't snipped it yet but I have 10-22awg in my garage to compare. If you are on the fence about using the Racetronix 14awg wire this should help. I don't trust the stock bulkhead connection for anything over a Walbro 255. Basically, the communications I received from Racetronix is correct...the stock bulkhead wiring is only good for 13-13.5 amps. Running a relay to the battery/alternator to feed the pump would also reduce the heat on the wires. I have to slightly modify the Racetronix hotwire kit to incorporate the bulkhead fitting.

I'm pulling the trigger on the fuel system components from Summit tomorrow after I do one more review - expensive!

FuzzyLogic
09-12-13, 07:55 AM
I already have the Racetronix hotwire kit and a Walbro 255LPH pump. What I'm considering is running 1/0 AWG from the alternator to the bucket, and then transitioning to the beefiest connector I can find. As far as fuel goes, minimum -6AN stainless steel line with a 40 micron post pump filter. Either a single Walbro 450 LPH pump, or twin DW300s in the bucket. I'll have to buy a bucket to experiment on.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/6-AN-Braided-Stainless-Steel-Fuel-Line-Hose-1500-PSI-/330375703504

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-230100/overview/

philistine
09-12-13, 09:10 PM
Thanks for the ebay link...saved hundreds! I'm going with dual DW300s - other pump going on a Hobbs switch. I'm using the nylon hose for the fuel lines and wrap the lines where they enter the engine compartment. I want the flexibility and the heat range is identical. Feed is -8AN and return -6AN.

With all the components, lines/fittings, rails, FPR, filter, gauge and additional pump and wiring, it's right at $1k. I went with Holley stuff for the major components and FAST fuel gauge.

You need to share your logic with running 1awg from the alternator to the bucket - that is more than overkill.

FuzzyLogic
09-12-13, 10:07 PM
Thanks for the ebay link...saved hundreds! I'm going with dual DW300s - other pump going on a Hobbs switch. I'm using the nylon hose for the fuel lines and wrap the lines where they enter the engine compartment. I want the flexibility and the heat range is identical. Feed is -8AN and return -6AN.

With all the components, lines/fittings, rails, FPR, filter, gauge and additional pump and wiring, it's right at $1k. I went with Holley stuff for the major components and FAST fuel gauge.

You need to share your logic with running 1awg from the alternator to the bucket - that is more than overkill.

What kind of FPR did you pick out? Looks like a 10 micron filter is recommended for EFI applications. Do you know anything about -AN connections with and without an o-ring?

1/0 AWG is cheap, durable, and easy to find, and the voltage drop characteristics are excellent (extreme overkill, really). The Racetronix kit, if memory serves, uses 10 AWG copper wire. Since I plan on doing a Big 3 upgrade, I figure I'll make the primary wiring in the system 1/0 AWG and be done with it.

philistine
09-12-13, 10:28 PM
I went with the following:
HLY-162-555 - Holley HP Billet Fuel Filters - 40 microns.
HLY-534-209 - Holley EFI Fuel Rails
HLY-12-846 - Holley HP Billet Fuel Pressure Regulator
FST-54027 - FAST LSX Fuel Pressure Gauge

I got one foot in the "import" world and the other in domestic. I'm not in love with domestic aftermarket but Holley is a great option.

Regarding the "O-ring AN fittings", the fuel rails above use -8AN straight thread size. It comes with -6AN-to-8AN o-ring thread. I'm going with -8AN-to-8AN o-ring for the fuel rails, FPR, and filter. I'm using the -6AN-to-8AN o-ring thread size that comes with the fuel rails for the return fitting on the FPR. I wanted to match as close as possible the inside diameter of the fuel rails and -8AN is it.

I have a spreadsheet that makes more sense if you want it. I had to draw several free-body diagrams to piece everything together.

I hope that makes sense because last week I would be scratching my head at this info.

Regarding the Racetronix...I got the hotwire kit but I'm fabricating the wire for the secondary pump and running it in parallel from the alternator. It will also be on a relay and using 10awg (same as Racetronix uses for the long run).

philistine
09-13-13, 05:17 PM
Creative Steel Trailing Arms came in. You only need 4 spacers, I got an extra pack.

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-09-12202628_zpsbc264dfd.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-09-12202628_zpsbc264dfd.jpg.html)

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-09-12223741_zpscde3bf3e.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-09-12223741_zpscde3bf3e.jpg.html)

Here's a comparison:
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-09-13154114_zps6e9768c5.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-09-13154114_zps6e9768c5.jpg.html)

The OEM bushing came out in about 1-2 minutes. Spray it with PB Blaster and push it out with a screwdriver.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-09-13140521_zps54b09daa.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-09-13140521_zps54b09daa.jpg.html)

They look pretty good installed:
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-09-13154127_zps880029b1.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-09-13154127_zps880029b1.jpg.html)

Notice the spacers top and bottom, torque to 66[ft-lb]
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-09-13154150_zpse202a7c2.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-09-13154150_zpse202a7c2.jpg.html)

Torque this one to 129 [ft-lb]. Notice the bushings are not squished and bulged.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-09-13154214_zps632cf91f.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-09-13154214_zps632cf91f.jpg.html)

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-09-13154841_zpsafa11dee.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-09-13154841_zpsafa11dee.jpg.html)

AAIIIC
09-14-13, 08:58 AM
Purty! I like the bolt with the grease zerk built-in, that's a good idea for that application.

FuzzyLogic
09-14-13, 02:39 PM
Philistine, you realize that you're not going to recognize your car once you put it all back together, right? ;)

philistine
09-14-13, 03:40 PM
Philistine, you realize that you're not going to recognize your car once you put it all back together, right? ;)

I know right!!!

I overlayed the RattleTrap Extreme with DEI tunnel shield. This stuff is super sticky and will take skin off on contact!

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/2013-09-14143500_zpscd277c0d.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/2013-09-14143500_zpscd277c0d.jpg.html)

I taped up the RattleTrap seams with DEI cool tape. The tunnel shield lays over it and is single piece and bolted in with factory fasteners. I used a 48"x42" piece. I had to hammer it in with a rubber mallet in most of the areas. This shielding is very rigid and has fiberglass reinforcement.

rand49er
09-15-13, 07:22 AM
Again, outstanding pics. You make everyone want to do this stuff.

SevillianSTS
09-15-13, 09:57 AM
I had a guy at work give me a good idea for the fuel pump trap door. I have not removed the back seat to verify, but figured I'd share the idea.

Go to the scrap yard and cut a bigger section out of a standard CTS where the trap door goes. Then cut it down and roll the edges or whatever so you have a metal piece that is molded to your car, and bigger than the opening you cut. I would bet you could rivet in a piano hinge on one side.

Not sure if it is practical in our application or not, being I have not been under there yet, but sounded like a good idea to me. =)

philistine
09-15-13, 04:33 PM
Again, outstanding pics. You make everyone want to do this stuff.
Thanks! I like the advice I get from the forums and hope it helps others with their projects.

My trap door should be complete in a couple days. I have strike 2 on finding the proper ring remover to access the fuel pump. I'm going to borrow one from my local speedshop just to check that it works with the trap door.

I got a ton of parts coming in Monday to complete the fuel mod - that's really the big holdup on buttoning up the car. I'm still on the fence about how I want to wire the Racetronix hotwire kit. I could go underneath the car or painfully route it through the cabin. The way it is built is not meant to run through a firewall - I got a day to decide. I can cut and splice anything so that part is not a big deal.

FuzzyLogic
09-15-13, 11:08 PM
With respect to the locking ring tool, I also tried something similar to the OTC tool and found that it was too large. Trying this next:

http://www.amazon.com/Lisle-63000-Fuel-Tank-Lock/dp/B0079GPYA4/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1379300825&sr=1-1-catcorr&keywords=fuel+tank+ring+tool

philistine
09-16-13, 11:58 AM
With respect to the locking ring tool, I also tried something similar to the OTC tool and found that it was too large. Trying this next:

http://www.amazon.com/Lisle-63000-Fuel-Tank-Lock/dp/B0079GPYA4/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1379300825&sr=1-1-catcorr&keywords=fuel+tank+ring+tool

Unless we have different locking rings...that won't fit. I'll post a close-up on my fuel locking ring failures - at least I get a full refund. The ones I purchased have a triangular pattern and the locking ring does not follow the grip pattern - they were both too big as well.

Kent Moore Fuel Tank Lock Ring Wrench J-45722 - fail:
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/2013-09-16181511_zpsa7f8c8ad.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/2013-09-16181511_zpsa7f8c8ad.jpg.html)

I think it might be this one:
http://www.etoolcart.com/kent-moore-fuel-tank-sending-unit-wrench-j-39765.aspx

...or this one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kent-Moore-KM-J-42219-Fuel-Tank-Sending-Unit-Remover-Installer-Wrench-JWH2444-/271274585293?pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&vxp=mtr&hash=item3f2939accd

***************************
Edit: (many edits on here)
Put a call into Luke at Lindsay Cadillac and he said from the drawings the listed tools are as follows:

J-45747
J-39765

I'm getting some drawings from him via email.

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/repairguides/CTS-2003-2005/Gasoline-Fuel-Injection/Fuel-Pump/_/P-0996b43f80cb41ab

philistine
09-16-13, 09:07 PM
Based on Luke's feedback I purchased the following:

KENT MOORE J-45747 FUEL TANK SENDING UNIT WRENCH
http://www.ebay.com/itm/271277516541?item=271277516541&viewitem=&sspagename=ADME:L:OC:US:3160&vxp=mtr

I measured the inside diameter of the fuel locking ring and it is 4.5 inches - I'm not the best photographer but this measurement is definitely 4.5 inches. Notice the banged up tab getting it off.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/2013-09-16195004_zps486cda87.png (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/medias/2013-09-16195004_zps486cda87.png.html)

The ebay description says for 4-1/2" lock ring...I hope this was the reference dimension, we'll see.

FuzzyLogic
09-16-13, 10:27 PM
Interesting. I'll take a look and see if I can find another one.

philistine
09-16-13, 11:48 PM
Interesting. I'll take a look and see if I can find another one.

These are the reference pics I got from Luke:
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/J-45747_zps8eaf4461.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/J-45747_zps8eaf4461.jpg.html)

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/J-39765_zpsc3b571cb.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/J-39765_zpsc3b571cb.jpg.html)

I am the king of buying parts that don't fit. I gotta send back 2 lock ring tools, a clutch bleeder, and 2 fuel strainers.

FuzzyLogic
09-17-13, 12:03 AM
I have the same banged up tab. As best I can tell, there are zero J-45747's available online right now. I found one J-39765, but they're asking $175 for it.

By the way, did you get the fuel strainers again? I'm probably going to prioritize the fuel project because I'm afraid that either I'll forget about some of the stuff you figured out, or you'll forget what you learned. ;)

philistine
09-17-13, 12:27 AM
I have the same banged up tab. As best I can tell, there are zero J-45747's available online right now. I found one J-39765, but they're asking $175 for it.

By the way, did you get the fuel strainers again? I'm probably going to prioritize the fuel project because I'm afraid that either I'll forget about some of the stuff you figured out, or you'll forget what you learned. ;)

From Auto Performance Engineering, I purchased kit 11 (qty 2) which fits my DeatschWerks (9-301-1000) and same suction as GSS 341. I should get these in a couple days. I also purchased the following hoses (2 of each):

flex hose 8
flex hose 10
flex hose 14

http://apeusa.com/html/kits.html

They ship really fast. I told them I needed a strainer that has a curved suction port so that the strainer is parallel with the pump - basically pump laying on strainer. The kit includes a sleeve so that should give the pump a little support. It's going to be crowded in there with 2 pumps but it should all fit.

FuzzyLogic
09-17-13, 12:47 AM
Why didn't you purchase a FS140 strainer instead of the Kit #11? Are you planning on using anything other than the strainer from that kit?

http://www.amazon.com/Airtex-FS140-Fuel-Strainer/dp/B000ZN2AXC
http://www.ebay.com/ctg/Airtex-FS140-Fuel-Pump-Strainer-/76975820

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x85/boergerfrost/04%20Ctsv/1B8F91B3-FA99-4041-8504-47BF39830FEB-175-0000000726DACA81_zps995291c7.jpg
Photo Credit: Frostbite on the LS1Tech Forums ("Twin Tank Walbro Install (http://ls1tech.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v/1620601-twin-intank-walbro-install-pics.html)")

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x85/boergerfrost/04%20Ctsv/6602EEA7-40F0-4E11-BEE1-44F8FB441D91-175-0000000585DC5C4A_zps01535946.jpg
Photo Credit: Frostbite on the LS1Tech Forums ("Twin Tank Walbro Install (http://ls1tech.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v/1620601-twin-intank-walbro-install-pics.html)")

philistine
09-17-13, 01:14 AM
Take a look:

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/2013-09-17000431_zps90fbfc47.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/2013-09-17000431_zps90fbfc47.jpg.html)

Left-to-right...DW300 (DeatschWerks, 9-301-1000), GSS 341 (Walbro 255), FS 140 strainer. Basically, it did not fit my style spare Walbro 255 or my DW300 pumps. The fuel strainer FS 140 fits the GSS 340 style pump suction. I never bothered to check the suction for any differences - I didn't know there were different sizes.

To answer your question, I looked around for the right style strainer and APE suggested that kit. The prices I was getting on similar style filters were $15-25. With APE's kit, I get a pump sleeve so I can use that to get a get a little space under the pumps - I'll probably have to trim the sleeve a little.

philistine
09-17-13, 11:26 PM
Here's some progress on the trap door:

The gasket is cut. In the center you can see my garage floor - gas tank is removed.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/2013-09-17192421_zps02d3abc8.png (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/2013-09-17192421_zps02d3abc8.png.html)

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/2013-09-17221000_zps0cdc05ec.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/2013-09-17221000_zps0cdc05ec.jpg.html)

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/2013-09-17221029_zps4eac34bd.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/2013-09-17221029_zps4eac34bd.jpg.html)

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/2013-09-17221431_zpsff22be3e.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/2013-09-17221431_zpsff22be3e.jpg.html)

I still have to smooth out the edges on the trap door before installation - gonna grind and file the edges. After I punch/drill the holes tomorrow it should be done.

philistine
09-19-13, 11:28 PM
Giggity, giggity...all my fuel stuff finally arrived!

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/2013-09-19170305_zps1ad1f880.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/2013-09-19170305_zps1ad1f880.jpg.html)

It's going to be a busy weekend...again :yup:

FuzzyLogic
09-20-13, 07:24 AM
My first DW300 arrived last night, along with my Hertz ESK165.5 speakers, DEI Cool Tape, and the RacingBrake two-piece front rotors. Sadly, the eBay seller that I bought the DEI Tunnel Shield II from ($120 versus $130 on Amazon) isn't going to get it here until later next week. So it looks like I'm not going to be pulling the transmission yet. :( Fortunately, I still have a lot of other stuff to keep me busy.

philistine
09-20-13, 11:00 PM
Finally a fuel lock ring removal tool that actually works! This is the driver side lock ring but is identical to the passenger side where the fuel bucket is located.

Kent-Moore J-45747 is confirmed!
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/2013-09-20213759_zps3bd7379d.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/2013-09-20213759_zps3bd7379d.jpg.html)

Uses a 1/2" drive.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/2013-09-20213921_zps3467a0b8.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/2013-09-20213921_zps3467a0b8.jpg.html)

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/2013-09-20213957_zps57563b15.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/2013-09-20213957_zps57563b15.jpg.html)

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/2013-09-20214007_zps9684bb97.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/2013-09-20214007_zps9684bb97.jpg.html)

No more hammer and brass drift/screwdriver. It cost me $75. Again it's Kent-Moore J-45747 and it works perfectly!

FuzzyLogic
09-20-13, 11:10 PM
*sigh* I'm glad that someone finally found the right too, but the only other one available is $170.

philistine
09-21-13, 12:08 AM
I'm considering a write-up on the fuel system mod before i lose all my notes when I'm done :D I got a lot of ideas from Mighty Mouse & Frostbite's work (LS1tech). This thread is a spin-off for a lot of stuff to write-up.


*sigh* I'm glad that someone finally found the right too, but the only other one available is $170.
I know someone who might be able to make one based on this design - $170 is waaaay too much.

philistine
09-22-13, 01:19 AM
All of this mess...
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/2013-09-21140008_zpse491a76c.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/2013-09-21140008_zpse491a76c.jpg.html)

Produced this today!
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/2013-09-22000848_zps520ee13a.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/2013-09-22000848_zps520ee13a.jpg.html)

FuzzyLogic
09-22-13, 02:04 AM
Oooo shiny! Can you do a couple more pictures?

SevillianSTS
09-22-13, 10:37 AM
What is the advantage of this upgraded fuel pump assembly ?

philistine
09-22-13, 01:24 PM
What is the advantage of this upgraded fuel pump assembly ?
Short answer, to feed more fuel at normal voltage (no BAP) for high horsepower and stable regulated fuel pressure.


Oooo shiny! Can you do a couple more pictures?

Here are some pics on the fab work. I took a ton of pics. This took me almost 8hrs to complete.

On the left is the new fuel regulator complete with a return that will be located at the engine just after the fuel rails. On the right is the OEM fuel regulator which was attached at the return port on the bucket.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-22115702_zpsecab3bfc.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-22115702_zpsecab3bfc.jpg.html)

Of course that means that you need to upgrade your your rails.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-16193711_zpsd90e63cb.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-16193711_zpsd90e63cb.jpg.html)

Here are the dual DeatschWerks pumps installed after carving out A LOT in the bucket to make room.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-21201103_zpsbf3fd573.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-21201103_zpsbf3fd573.jpg.html)

The filters sit in there very comfortably. The additional pump with the short filter is located right at the return and has a 45 degree slope - plenty of clearance for fuel return.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-21180024_zpse30fc2d7.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-21180024_zpse30fc2d7.jpg.html)
The pumps are kept together using 0.032" lock wire.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-21201125_zps84bf5b7b.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-21201125_zps84bf5b7b.jpg.html)

This is where the regulator was on the return port. I tapped it using a 1/4-18 NPT.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-21163622_zpsaf831388.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-21163622_zpsaf831388.jpg.html)

Here is the new return fitting installed.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-21163833_zps692f8a47.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-21163833_zps692f8a47.jpg.html)

Drilled out and installed new supply (-8AN) and return (-6AN) bulkhead fittings.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-21224644_zps6cd1a16a.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-21224644_zps6cd1a16a.jpg.html)

Underside showing the bulkhead fittings. Notice the spacing to place the gasket and nut - leave enough room so they don't interfere with tightening.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-21224714_zpsb7a41695.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-21224714_zpsb7a41695.jpg.html)

philistine
09-23-13, 01:14 AM
Here's some more pics:

Added a worm-gear clamp for 2 reasons. 1) to better secure the bucket so that it doesn't come apart 2) to better support the pumps to keep them off the strainers.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-22220514_zps3238a463.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-22220514_zps3238a463.jpg.html)

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-23214601_zps1935ebfe.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-23214601_zps1935ebfe.jpg.html)

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-23214613_zps904e4fc7.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-23214613_zps904e4fc7.jpg.html)

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-23214542_zps7ad7d53e.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-23214542_zps7ad7d53e.jpg.html)

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-23214631_zpsc42546fb.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-23214631_zpsc42546fb.jpg.html)

FuzzyLogic
09-24-13, 12:30 AM
Potentially dumb question--did you use the black plastic power connectors that came with the DW300 kit, or did you go with something beefier? Also, I ordered more stuff:

http://i1345.photobucket.com/albums/p663/Fuzzylog1c/Order35001_zps05c96641.png (http://s1345.photobucket.com/user/Fuzzylog1c/media/Order35001_zps05c96641.png.html)

philistine
09-24-13, 01:10 AM
Potentially dumb question--did you use the black plastic power connectors that came with the DW300 kit, or did you go with something beefier?

Good question!

I used the connectors that came with the DW300 kit. I spliced into them with the Racetronix bulkhead connector. I soldered them and wrapped with Raychem heatshrink 3:1. I was satisfied with the datasheet on the pump and wiring that came with the kit - including overvoltage and amp load. The bulkhead connector is pretty beefy and I could have depinned the DW300 connector and ran it straight down but my design is for ~14.5 volts. I didn't find it necessary to interrogate the connector at the pump - besides, those connectors are only rated so far no matter how big a wire you can shove in there.

There are 2 things I like about the Racetronix bulkhead connector 1) It can handle a lot of amps, up to 20 amps and sustain ~14.5 amps continuously. That far exceeds the wimpy OEM connector. 2) It has a vapor seal - this thing might as well fallen from the sky because Racetronix is the only one with a decent price and applicability for fuel module modifications.

I highly doubt there would be a connector failure using the combo. If you were to use a BAP...that changes things, use the beefiest stuff you can get.

I want to point out...do a continuity check on your wires if/when you come to that point. Racetronix switched wire colors from what plugs into the top and bottom - Effed me up a little when I was jotting down notes e.g. gray became purple, red became black etc.

There are a lot of little things I didn't include which were trial/error - let me know if you want those details while it's fresh in my mind, it's evaporating daily as I get closer to slapping this thing together.

Fuzzy, I think you're the only one interested in this based on the responses :hmm:

Edit:

Get (qty) 1 kit #11...not 2. I used the filter in that #11 kit but used the short filter in the DW300 kit for the other pump. Noway you can fit both in there.
delete flexhose 10 - not needed
Get (qty) 1 flexhose 14...not 2
Definitely need (qty) 2 flexhose 8
delete thin foam sleeve - not needed
*personally I don't think you need the wiring connectors

I can't comment on the rest because I didn't use that and don't know what it is.

FuzzyLogic
09-24-13, 07:31 AM
I think you'd be surprised how many people are watching this thread. What people may or may not know is that I tracked down and talked at length with most of the respectable 800+ RWHP CTS-V owners about their "lessons learned." None of these guys actively participate in the forums, although you'll see a burst of activity from the likes SkyDiver and S-Cam on LS1Tech once every 12-18 months or so.

Anyway, bottom line is that fueling a supercharged, 800-1000 RWHP CTS-V cost these guys, on average, $1000-1500 for hardware alone, but the crazy part is that the expenses associated with developing that final configuration took 5-7 hardware revisions (trial and error) and blew the cost of the project up to $5-12k. Since you've been going down the right path this far, I haven't seen the need to comment on this or tell their stories (nor do I think they want them told).

At this point, the only hurdles that we may have to face are AFR thinning out at WOT when the supercharger (assuming 18-22 psi boost) spools up, but the problem should be mitigated somewhat by increased volume in the larger diameter lines. If the problem rears it's ugly head, a good surge tank with a huge pump is the only solution. The other potential issue is tuning at low speeds with ID850 injectors (which are worth the cost because they flow more consistently, injector to injector, and they're better documented than conpeting products).

Anyway, I'm still debating the merits of -10AN feed and return, just as a way of holding more volume in the lines, but I'll let you know how that goes.

SevillianSTS
09-24-13, 07:47 AM
Fuzzy, I think you're the only one interested in this based on the responses :hmm:



I'm not ready to get into anything this deep of modding yet, but I was wondering about beefing up the fuel system after I saw how they over-power the stock fuel pump with the standard Maggie setup.
So thanks for posting up all the info and "how-to's"

philistine
09-24-13, 09:54 AM
Anyway, I'm still debating the merits of -10AN feed and return, just as a way of holding more volume in the lines, but I'll let you know how that goes.

Your spraying fuel so you don't need the same diameter line - return line can be smaller. The components I chose all accepted the -8AN oring fittings with the exception of the return port on the regulator, it is -6AN oring fitting. The fuel rails even though take a -8AN oring fitting have a diameter of 0.625 so running a -10AN seems logical.

Some math for the silent watchers: (1/16*10=0.625), multiply the AN size by 1/16 to find the inside diameter of the hose.

The trouble you are going to run into is trying to find room on the top of the bucket for space. -10AN take up a lot of room. I'm sure it can be done. You could grind away the stock feed/return and drill it out to fit.

I would recommend -10AN feed and -8AN return if you want larger fuel lines.

Also regarding the injectors...ID1000s are a major improvement over the ID850s. I have a set of ID1000s and absolutely love them, idles like stock with 550rwhp on my s2k. Set the injector dead-times and tuning was super easy. Eliminated my hot stalls, reduced my idle from 1100 rpms to 850rpms perfectly stable.


I'm not ready to get into anything this deep of modding yet, but I was wondering about beefing up the fuel system after I saw how they over-power the stock fuel pump with the standard Maggie setup.
So thanks for posting up all the info and "how-to's"

Great! I'm glad your enjoying my mod hell soup kitchen, haha. I think using a BAP on the Maggies was an economical choice. A lot use them without too many problems and the resale on them are pretty good. The part that isn't so good is that sometimes those BAP fail and you have no redundant backup system. They also reduce the life on the pump and the BAP can only go so far before it fries your connectors trying to squeeze every bit of power out of the fuel pump - it can also create too much heat.

I've seen many fried connectors using a BAP and also using hotwire relays.

philistine
09-24-13, 09:38 PM
Many would base the size of the fuel lines on the design of their build. Here's some snapshots comparing the different sizes and snapshots of what it might look like on the bucket:

-10AN, -8AN, -6AN
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-24184534_zps28460c05.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-24184534_zps28460c05.jpg.html)

Black -8AN. -6AN compared to the blue -10AN
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-24191914_zps7edb1175.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-24191914_zps7edb1175.jpg.html)

My fuel module is already crowded but this gives you a glimpse of the size of the blue -10AN - consider the space for the bulkhead nut underneath shown in a previously.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-24184645_zps16222a9b.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-24184645_zps16222a9b.jpg.html)
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-24184619_zps94c4cca7.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-24184619_zps94c4cca7.jpg.html)
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-24184715_zpsd7e0db7e.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-24184715_zpsd7e0db7e.jpg.html)

I taped this together but you get the point, no trick photography here. These were the only spare -10 fittings I had.

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-24185218_zps9354518b.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-24185218_zps9354518b.jpg.html)

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-24185210_zpsce64a278.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-24185210_zpsce64a278.jpg.html)

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-24185203_zpsa46d6228.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-24185203_zpsa46d6228.jpg.html)

I'll never make it as a hand model.

Flip it upside down and you can see how crowded it gets.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-24204338_zps062ae0c9.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-24204338_zps062ae0c9.jpg.html)

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-24204407_zps2503fe01.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-24204407_zps2503fe01.jpg.html)

FuzzyLogic
09-25-13, 05:12 AM
Wow. Those -10AN fittings are really beefy. It looks like a -10AN/-8AN combo *might* fit, but only just. What really concerns me is the bend radius of the lines as they go over the side of the tank. If they aren't properly supported, they might have enough leverage to crack the top of the plastic bucket. I'll order a couple of test pieces and see of I can mock up something that seems reasonable. I really appreciate the extra work you did here!

philistine
09-25-13, 10:57 PM
Here's a thought...make them both -8AN and put an adapter to open it up to -10AN. That way you can fit all the connections on the bucket top. It would act as a "minor" orifice but should keep the volume all the way to the fuel rails. With that much length to the fuel rails, pressure should stabilize and shouldn't interfere with anything.

I suspect you are going to use SS braided line - hmm if I was in New England, my choice too.

Fuzzy, to save you some trouble, get 5/16" barbed fittings from Home Depot/Lowes for those flex fuel lines. You won't be able to get anything in there larger than that. 1/4" fits too loose and 3/8" was far far beyond what those flex lines can stretch. If you use a heatgun...use extreme caution, that material acts more like a thermoset than a thermoplastic.

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-21213108_zpsc68380d3.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-21213108_zpsc68380d3.jpg.html)

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-21213743_zps17c4bfa8.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-21213743_zps17c4bfa8.jpg.html)

silver1r
09-25-13, 11:25 PM
Thanks for this thread! The fuel system always worried me about these cars. I thought about going with a fuel cell but after reading this, I'm definetly going this route!

philistine
09-26-13, 09:31 PM
Thanks for this thread! The fuel system always worried me about these cars. I thought about going with a fuel cell but after reading this, I'm definetly going this route!

Great! Glad to hear it.

It's only fair I should show that this actually fits in the fuel tank...and HOW I INSTALLED IT

Assemble the bucket with the black locking ring. Connect the the fuel line to the bucket from the driver's side. The component with a large red circle should look just like this in the pic, if it doesn't then reverse it - just take out the clips out from the bottom and rotate it. Disconnect the return line and tie a piece of strong string to it - it's the little red circle.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-26185810_1_zpsed71028e.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-26185810_1_zpsed71028e.jpg.html)

Slide it in gently. If you force it too much you will detach the top part of the bucket from the hinges - you will have to start over.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-26190036_zpsc870a157.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-26190036_zpsc870a157.jpg.html)
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-26190228_zpsb3fad723.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-26190228_zpsb3fad723.jpg.html)
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-26190257_zps9a65fd3e.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-26190257_zps9a65fd3e.jpg.html)

Fish the return line up through carefully and you can see you have enough room to tighten it.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-26195327_zpsc1c89572.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-26195327_zpsc1c89572.jpg.html)

This may seem trivial but....I spent 2.5 hours figuring this thing out. When I first tried to shove it in there, I panicked!



This is my favorite pic :lildevil:
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-26200044_zps156c0684.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-26200044_zps156c0684.jpg.html)

philistine
09-27-13, 06:36 PM
Here some of the work on the fuel lines:

This is the entire supply and return in our cars.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-27171316_zpsdd5cac82.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-27171316_zpsdd5cac82.jpg.html)

Here is a comparison -8AN (1/2") vs. the stock fuel supply line.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-27160451_zpsf55a62ca.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-27160451_zpsf55a62ca.jpg.html)

Here is the stock fuel filter nicely tucked away along with the brake lines and evap line.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-11215331_zpsd29de1e1.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-11215331_zpsd29de1e1.jpg.html)

Time to get the Holley fuel filter in there. First, got to fab up the stock filter holder with some gasket material because the filter is just a little smaller diameter.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-27143313_zpse36b59ee.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-27143313_zpse36b59ee.jpg.html)

Fits nice and snug in the stock fuel filter holder.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-27143357_zps5cb23387.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-27143357_zps5cb23387.jpg.html)

I'm satisfied.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-27170648_zps622b58ec.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-27170648_zps622b58ec.jpg.html)

Here is the size line from the tank to the filter (6 inch scale in pic)
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-27155821_zps1287b052.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-27155821_zps1287b052.jpg.html)

***Edit***
I'm posting these details because there is so little information on the fueling and the cost is very large taking it to a speed shop. Neglecting the fact I have almost every tool in my garage, the cost of this upgrade including new pumps is $1200. I got very little direction performing this part of the mod so I hope it serves others. More pics/details to come...

philistine
09-27-13, 10:57 PM
Next up, the regulator:

Not too obvious, this is the battery tray. The regulator will mount to it. But first, ground the surface smooth for the mounting hardware.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-27204533_zps56fba8f4.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-27204533_zps56fba8f4.jpg.html)

Tape the regulator bracket to the battery tray and drill the holes.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-27211949_zpsafaaa71c.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-27211949_zpsafaaa71c.jpg.html)

The length of the bolts were a bit long - notice one is trimmed to the desired length.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-27212722_zpsa4c4109e.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-27212722_zpsa4c4109e.jpg.html)

All bolted up and secured with the packaged lock washers.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-27213920_zps645eb2ef.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-27213920_zps645eb2ef.jpg.html)

This is what it looks like installed. The supply and return ports are easily accessible.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-27214605_zps170fb1a8.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-27214605_zps170fb1a8.jpg.html)
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-27214616_zps431951c7.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-27214616_zps431951c7.jpg.html)

Enjoy!

FuzzyLogic
09-28-13, 07:58 AM
So far, so good! It looks clean, and I'm glad you were able to use the fuel filter mount. Since I'm probably going to be replacing that battery bracket with the Deka bracket, getting mine in there might be more of a chore. Ron, over at APE, contacted me earlier this week and told me that they wouldn't be able to ship out my order because *somebody* ordered all of their Kit 11s! ;)

By the way, have you done the Racetronix hotwire kit yet? Where did you decide to run the wires, and more importantly, place the relay?

philistine
09-28-13, 05:33 PM
So far, so good! It looks clean, and I'm glad you were able to use the fuel filter mount. Since I'm probably going to be replacing that battery bracket with the Deka bracket, getting mine in there might be more of a chore. Ron, over at APE, contacted me earlier this week and told me that they wouldn't be able to ship out my order because *somebody* ordered all of their Kit 11s! ;)

By the way, have you done the Racetronix hotwire kit yet? Where did you decide to run the wires, and more importantly, place the relay?

I'm sending one of those kits back to APE - only used 1. I'm running the hotwire under the chassis - it's weather proof and I don't think there will be any issues. I'm fabbing up the wires for the second pump and putting it on a relay but setup for a Hobbs switch (2psi pressure switch) - that will be the trigger and will be done this weekend. Just an FYI for those doubting a relay aka hotwire kit...do it! I'm getting voltage drops in my other car when I installed a 340 fuel pump and causing spikes in the AFR luckily not while on boost. I've had to set the tune to open-loop to keep the ECU off my fuel regulation - so I'm running 11.7 AFR in all columns which is my "race" tune to keep from going lean. Those spikes give 2-3 values higher e.g. if you are 14.7 in closed loop, spikes to 17 AFR. At 11.7 constant, I get spikes to about 13.5-14.5 so no worries but it makes that 2.0 liter Honda thirsty. I digress, anyways...

Here's some more pics/details on the progress:

Exit the fuel rails to the regulator line (6 inch scale).
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-28154600_zpsea367685.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-28154600_zpsea367685.jpg.html)

Notice how there is just enough space on that 90 degree fitting.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-28155111_zpsa4655a27.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-28155111_zpsa4655a27.jpg.html)

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-28155125_zps1e7ce784.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-28155125_zps1e7ce784.jpg.html)

Pointing to the return line fitting. This is what ruined my whole weekend. It needs a 90 degree fitting and I purchased a straight. With the 90 degree, guaranteed to keep the return line away from the exhaust manifold.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-28155139_zps6e381344.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-28155139_zps6e381344.jpg.html)

Pics of the fuel rails. I decided to use a 45 degree fitting on the driver's side - just a preference. Those fuel rails do not terminate flush with each other - you will either be on the outside or inside of the wire harness.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-28155154_zps05359986.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-28155154_zps05359986.jpg.html)
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-28155219_zps4bbb44b0.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-28155219_zps4bbb44b0.jpg.html)

Well, I'm delayed 1.5 weeks because I have to order more parts and I travel out of town next week. I ordered a 90 degree -6AN return fitting and 3 more thermal sleeve wraps for the fuel lines where they are close to the exhaust up through the engine bay. I'm going to wrap those sleeves with DEI cool tape so ordered that too.

I have to flush the lines and will be testing the fuel pumps - filling buckets of gas...fun.

FuzzyLogic
09-28-13, 07:22 PM
I agree on the hotwire kit--I haven't had time to test my voltage drop with the Walbro 255 and Racetronix kit, but I'll probably test it with the twin DW300s. One other thing I need, since I don't have a spare car, is an extra fuel bucket. As far as I know, the 04-05 and 06-07 buckets are identical...or at least there will be no difference when I'm done with it. ;)

Progress acquiring fuel system parts has been slow because I'm splitting my budget between this and my brake system overhaul. Just got a quote on RacingBrake 2115-381 rear rotors, RB ET800 pads, RB stainless steel brake line kit (replacing my existing Goodridge kit)--$1450 including shipping. Oof. Also need SKF hubs for all four corners @ $215 a pop, 1.0mm titanium Hard Brake shims ($300 for the set), the LG Motorsports G2 spindle cooling duct kit ($200), 2-ply smooth high-temp ductwork ($150), and miscellaneous parts (14mm bolts at whatnot).

I was going to rock the transmission tunnel upgrades this weekend, but my boss asked me to come in this weekend to help with a project. Tomorrow, I'll probably just clean the car and do a couple of miscellaneous upgrades...sound dampening in the doors, Hertz ESK 165L.5 speakers, and maybe try to get that motor mount bolt unstuck, most likely.

philistine
09-28-13, 07:58 PM
The major issue with my voltage drops in my other car is due to so much power hungry aftermarket stuffs in there - cooling fans, 3 amplifiers etc. Sorting that thing out will easy once I'm done with the "V". I'm fabbing a relay for that and adding some capacitors for subs... Turn on the A/C and crank the stereo, watch the lights dim and then comes my spiking AFR - it's become predictable and my datalogs confirm it. The single 255 Walbro had me stuck at only 480 rwhp, with the 340 fuel pump, it comfortably put me at ~550 rwhp but that was on my s2k pushing 18 psi and built like a like a s*it-brick house - TYVM.

This fuel upgrade has me moving at a snails pace - this is no easy bolt on project. It's fun and a PITA at the same time - give me an import, so much easier!

Regarding your brakes...wow! That does add up to a lot of $$$. I just dropped a few on new brakes.

Check it out. I don't think OEM pads get enough attention - I prefer OEM over Hawk for the street. Here are some Centric premium slotted rotors (from DRT) and OEM pads that are going to be installed when I wrap this thing up.

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/brakes/2013-09-28182017_zpsed7f501f.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/brakes/2013-09-28182017_zpsed7f501f.jpg.html)

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/brakes/2013-09-28182041_zpsb26bd461.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/brakes/2013-09-28182041_zpsb26bd461.jpg.html)

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/brakes/2013-09-28182029_zps9f16ce1e.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/brakes/2013-09-28182029_zps9f16ce1e.jpg.html)

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/brakes/2013-09-28182154_zps13dd9975.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/brakes/2013-09-28182154_zps13dd9975.jpg.html)

FuzzyLogic
09-28-13, 08:49 PM
It's funny...5,000 miles and I'm going to be taking my DRT rotors off. I liked them, but they were heavy as hell. Shame that you already bought the brakes--you could have had mine for very little.

Btw, you may want to pick up a AD244 if you have time to swap out the alternator. The stock CS-130D typically only puts out about 20 amps at idle (105 amps max), which is a LOT less than the AD244 (even a stock 145 amp one) because the AD244 was designed to function with bigger, lower RPM engines (specifically trucks and SUVs).

http://www.ebay.com/itm/251330364707

You can typically find a 250-300 watt AD244 for $175-225 on eBay. As you may notice per the following thread, I originally purchased a remanufactured AD244, which was a piece of crap. I returned it. I just purchased a 300 amp upgraded AD244 with a 14.7 VDC regulator. It should fit, but I'll know for certain in a couple of weeks when it arrives and I have time to install it.

http://ls1tech.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v/1639650-big-3-ad244-alternator-upgrade.html

philistine
09-28-13, 10:33 PM
It's funny...5,000 miles and I'm going to be taking my DRT rotors off. I liked them, but they were heavy as hell. Shame that you already bought the brakes--you could have had mine for very little.

Btw, you may want to pick up a AD244 if you have time to swap out the alternator. The stock CS-130D typically only puts out about 20 amps at idle (105 amps max), which is a LOT less than the AD244 (even a stock 145 amp one) because the AD244 was designed to function with bigger, lower RPM engines (specifically trucks and SUVs).

http://www.ebay.com/itm/251330364707

You can typically find a 250-300 watt AD244 for $175-225 on eBay. As you may notice per the following thread, I originally purchased a remanufactured AD244, which was a piece of crap. I returned it. I just purchased a 300 amp upgraded AD244 with a 14.7 VDC regulator. It should fit, but I'll know for certain in a couple of weeks when it arrives and I have time to install it.

http://ls1tech.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v/1639650-big-3-ad244-alternator-upgrade.html

Hmm, I never thought about the alternator. I like these references, actually used the ebay hose fitting reference you provided - awesome! I've been taking a hard look at some of the sound barrier stuff. I finally installed the Fatmat RattleTrap in my s2k around the trunk and it cut down the test pipe/exhaust drone by 50%. I plan on something similar for the "V" but will take a different approach and use a layer of sound barrier - the rear seat in the "V" is prone to rattles and drone so I am focused on that area right now.

FuzzyLogic
09-29-13, 12:14 AM
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, b-quiet Ultimate and Luxury Liner Pro are your friends. Two layers of the former over the sheet metal in the rear seat, followed by one layer of Luxury Liner Pro. Do a double layer strip into the spare tire well and fully line the spare tire well to eliminate resonance from the mufflers. Add one layer of Luxury Liner Pro between the trunk lid liner and the metal framework on the inside. Finally, remove the whole plastic deck and line it with two layers of b-Quiet, one layer of Luxury Liner, and maybe even a 2" thick layer of open cell foam for good measure.

Don't worry so much about treating the trunk until you fully handle the boundary layer between the trunk and the cabin. Otherwise you'll fall into the same pitfall as everyone else and end up adding 400 lbs of material to your car when 40 lbs would do.

SevillianSTS
09-29-13, 12:42 AM
I agree on the hotwire kit--I haven't had time to test my voltage drop with the Walbro 255 and Racetronix kit, but I'll probably test it with the twin DW300s. One other thing I need, since I don't have a spare car, is an extra fuel bucket. As far as I know, the 04-05 and 06-07 buckets are identical...or at least there will be no difference when I'm done with it. ;)

Progress acquiring fuel system parts has been slow because I'm splitting my budget between this and my brake system overhaul. Just got a quote on RacingBrake 2115-381 rear rotors, RB ET800 pads, RB stainless steel brake line kit (replacing my existing Goodridge kit)--$1450 including shipping. Oof. Also need SKF hubs for all four corners @ $215 a pop, 1.0mm titanium Hard Brake shims ($300 for the set), the LG Motorsports G2 spindle cooling duct kit ($200), 2-ply smooth high-temp ductwork ($150), and miscellaneous parts (14mm bolts at whatnot).

I was going to rock the transmission tunnel upgrades this weekend, but my boss asked me to come in this weekend to help with a project. Tomorrow, I'll probably just clean the car and do a couple of miscellaneous upgrades...sound dampening in the doors, Hertz ESK 165L.5 speakers, and maybe try to get that motor mount bolt unstuck, most likely.

Why are you replacing your Goodridge brake lines ? I'm happy with mine.

FuzzyLogic
09-29-13, 07:32 AM
Why are you replacing your Goodridge brake lines ? I'm happy with mine.

Because I think they have a slow leak (there's a known problem with the passenger side rear fitting), and because I'm replacing all four calipers. It's easier to just buy a new kit than find new crush washers and still have to fight 75% pedal.

philistine
09-29-13, 12:28 PM
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, b-quiet Ultimate and Luxury Liner Pro are your friends. Two layers of the former over the sheet metal in the rear seat, followed by one layer of Luxury Liner Pro. Do a double layer strip into the spare tire well and fully line the spare tire well to eliminate resonance from the mufflers. Add one layer of Luxury Liner Pro between the trunk lid liner and the metal framework on the inside. Finally, remove the whole plastic deck and line it with two layers of b-Quiet, one layer of Luxury Liner, and maybe even a 2" thick layer of open cell foam for good measure.

Don't worry so much about treating the trunk until you fully handle the boundary layer between the trunk and the cabin. Otherwise you'll fall into the same pitfall as everyone else and end up adding 400 lbs of material to your car when 40 lbs would do.

Good stuff! The Luxury Liner is pretty expensive. I found this site to be interesting:
http://www.sounddeadenershowdown.com/

philistine
09-29-13, 07:00 PM
Tested the pumps and fittings...blew the junk out of the lines.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-29174144_zps5ff71d6c.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-29174144_zps5ff71d6c.jpg.html)

I had a small leak at both bulkhead fittings. I had to remove the fuel module and tighten those down really good. I forgot I had them in there semi-tight when I was assembling the fuel module.

Other than that, both pumps work really well. I only tested them at 10amps and 11.5VDC. With both pumps on, definitely had a lot more flow than single pump operation.

1. single primary pump operation - good flow and jet pump working
2. single secondary pump oper. - good flow, about as much as the primary pump
3. dual pump operation - greatly increased flow, jet pump was working

Of course the system was not pressurized but I wanted to test for operation. I disassembled the module to check if the pumps rotated due to the torque - they were firmly seated in the bucket, no issues. I tested the OEM, Walbro 255 and the DW300...Walbro was VERY noisy, the rest were about the same. The DW300s are very quiet.

Hope this is of some use to a few out there.

FuzzyLogic
09-29-13, 08:10 PM
That's good news, and I'm glad to hear about the noise levels on the DW300 pumps. I can definitely hear the Walbro GSS342 with the back seat out (less so with it in), so anything quieter should be nice.

Out of curiosity...now that you have a regulator that you can set, do you know why some fuel systems feature a higher pressure than others, and if there's an advantage to X PSI over another setting? I figure that a higher pressure system would allow you to get more out of your existing injectors, but the downside would be a greater percentage pressure drop associated with engine load transients. Conversely, a lower pressure would be more forgiving, but you'd have to hang the injectors open a lot longer at WOT to fuel the engine.

philistine
09-29-13, 09:33 PM
That Walbro sounded like a pool pump.

My experience tells me that you raise base pressure if you run out of injector. The problem with raising the pressure too high makes the injector harder to open and close and could go static - that would be your lean condition. Safe is to leave base fuel pressure stock and use the boost assist on the FPR.

For high horsepower, you have to raise base pressure because you'll run out of injector. As far I know, that is the only time you do that but again, those builds usually have boost assisted FPR. I don't know of any other advantages/disadvantages.

This is a great question and I'm going to ask a very experienced tuner about this. ***Edit*** Just got through that big 3 thread, found out how much I don't know about terminal lugs. Looks like one more thing to address after i finish the fuel lines on the V. Some of those things in that thread are exactly what I have and still experiencing in my other car and going lean - voltage drops resulting in lean AFR. I can say that raising or lowering fuel pressure has had no effect with my spiking AFR because of my voltage issues on that platform.

Meanwhile, check out the trap door bling:
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-29203558_zps727709ab.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-29203558_zps727709ab.jpg.html)

philistine
09-30-13, 04:52 PM
Out of curiosity...now that you have a regulator that you can set, do you know why some fuel systems feature a higher pressure than others, and if there's an advantage to X PSI over another setting? I figure that a higher pressure system would allow you to get more out of your existing injectors, but the downside would be a greater percentage pressure drop associated with engine load transients. Conversely, a lower pressure would be more forgiving, but you'd have to hang the injectors open a lot longer at WOT to fuel the engine.

I copy and pasted your question and asked a very experienced and well respected tuner. The answer I got was as follows:


"Not sure the reasoning of 43.5 vs 58 psi systems (assuming that's what you are asking) I do not believe the lower pressure system would have any advantage during load transitions with the exception being when using large flow injectors with long minimum pulsewidth. These types of injectors are difficult to get to idle properly and higher fuel pressure makes the idle tuning especially difficult."

I should add that he snarled when he groomed my s2k with ID1000s and I moved the base pressure up to 50psi. Completely wrecked all my fuel maps and the changes were not linear.

philistine
10-01-13, 12:03 AM
I think there might be a gap in the FAQs with making relays to power twin pumps with one one being a Hobbs switch (pressure switch) and the other trigger through normal operation. I ordered a few things and have been taking snap shots of how I'm fabricating the lines and some sketches how to do it all. This is simple knowledge for the EEs and experienced few but I think there might be some benefit for some who are not initiated. I'll show the tools that are needed/used etc.

I'm also going to document how I run the fuel lines. I'm using rivet nuts with adel clamps. More pics to come in a week...when I come back from travel.

FuzzyLogic
10-02-13, 11:54 PM
I've been doing a lot research and math on this--partially spurred by your earlier PM--and I believe that twin DW300 pumps will be sufficient for a 1000 RWHP, 0.6 BSFC FI car. But I don't think there's a "lot" of margin in either of our setups. With the 10 gauge Racetronix hotwire kit, the 24 peak amps at 60 PSI drawn by the twin pumps should drop voltage from whichever source you use by about 0.375 VDC. If that voltage at the pumps happens to be 13.5 volts, they'll spin fast enough to put out 275 LPH. Since the data sheet (http://www.deatschwerks.com/resources/fuel-pump-tech/dw300-fuel-pump-tech) also says 345 LPH @ 60 PSI and 16 VDC, we can linearly extrapolate between the data points and say that for every extra volt you can deliver, the pump will produce 28 LPH more. So I think you might want to look at your present battery voltage under WOT and get a feel for approximately where it's at.

Assuming that you make 2x275=550 LPH, that's 873 pounds of fuel per hour. According to the Aeromotive fuel pump tech bulletin (http://aeromotiveinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/TB-501-Fuel-Pumps-and-HP.pdf), it sounds like this build should theoretically be able to handle 1454 BHP, or, if you take our 0.83 (est) drivetrain losses into account, 1207 RWHP. But then you need to consider the fact that the fuel flow numbers identified by Deatschwerks do not account for the flow resistance imposed by the system. If the system's flow-induced resistance reduces the free-flowing efficiency of the pump by about 15-20%, you're right at 1000 RWHP.

Anyway, I just realized that I'm babbling too. Here's my planned parts list (I will build a raised door around the top of the bulkhead if necessary):


Aeromotive 13110 (http://aeromotiveinc.com/products-page/regulators/efi-regulators/13110-pro-series-efi-regulator/) Pro-Series boost referenced pressure regulator ($305) with -10AN inlet and -10AN return ports. As I understand it, one of the big problems associated with boosted applications is that the extra pressure in the cylinder reduces the effective fuel pressure of your system. The rule of thumb is that for every pound of boost, you lose one pound of fuel pressure. Since the regulator works at a 1:1 ratio, for every pound of boost that it reads, it increases the fuel pressure by one PSI to compensate.

Aeromotive 12310 (http://aeromotiveinc.com/products-page/fuel-filters/12310-pro-series-10-micron-orb-12-fuel-filter/) Pro-Series -12AN, 10 micron fuel filter ($135). Advertised 0.5 psi pressure drop at 2000 LPH, which is half the flow resistance of the Aeromotive 12301 (their -10AN "prosumer" model).

I left a message with Holley about doing a custom, -10AN version of the HLY-534-209 fuel rail for my car (internally, the fuel rail *is* -10AN), but if that doesn't work out, I'll purchase raw Aeromotive 14107 rails and have them machined to accept -10AN fittings.

PTFE-lined -12AN stainless steel feed and return lines with various -12AN and -10AN fittings


According to Engineering Toolbox, a single 90-degree, half-inch (-8AN) fitting has a flow resistance equivalent to 3.6 feet of hose. A 45-degree fitting, on the other hand, has a flow resistance equivalent to 0.7 feet (5x less). So I'm going to use 45-degree fittings on the front of the rails.

Random question: how much length did you need on your hose segments? The stuff I'm looking at costs about $10/foot, so I'm hoping to avoid ordering a ton extra "just in case." If I get under the car this weekend, I'll certainly whip out a tape measure to check.

philistine
10-03-13, 10:44 AM
Random question: how much length did you need on your hose segments? The stuff I'm looking at costs about $10/foot, so I'm hoping to avoid ordering a ton extra "just in case." If I get under the car this weekend, I'll certainly whip out a tape measure to check.

I used 11' of the feed and 10' return line - I ordered 15' of each to be safe.


Since the data sheet also says 345 LPH @ 60 PSI and 16 VDC, we can linearly extrapolate between the data points and say that for every extra volt you can deliver, the pump will produce 28 LPH more. So I think you might want to look at your present battery voltage under WOT and get a feel for approximately where it's at.
Yeah this is something I'm going to look at when I button everything up. The backup plan is to upgrade the alternator, alternator wire upgrade and change to a power cell AGM battery and I've been eyeballin the Kinetiks - just have to get dimensions. Lays down a nice path for stereo equipment too.


According to Engineering Toolbox, a single 90-degree, half-inch (-8AN) fitting has a flow resistance equivalent to 3.6 feet of hose. A 45-degree fitting, on the other hand, has a flow resistance equivalent to 0.7 feet (5x less). So I'm going to use 45-degree fittings on the front of the rails.

There are long bend and short bend radii - which did you calculate? 3.6 feet equivalent resistance for a 90 degree long bend radius on these swivel seal type AN connections seem way too high.

Andringa
10-03-13, 10:57 AM
I don't have any plans of ever building my V to 1000rwhp, but I just wanted to say that it is very interesting reading the information posted in this thread. It seems that most build threads that I've read simply discuss what was done and the end result. They mostly seem to skip over the more interesting parts of why certain choices were made.

Thanks for sharing and good luck on your builds.

sssnake
10-03-13, 12:21 PM
I have heard lots of discussions concerning QC issues with the new Kinetik batteries. It may be backlash from Kinetik being sold at Wal-Mart now. I don't really know. It was enough for me to look for a different brand. Duracell now makes automotive AGM batteries. No clue on quality but they are cheaper than most competitors and offer a good warranty. I would still go the BAP route if for no other reason than voltage stability. Just cheap lightweight insurance IMO.

philistine
10-04-13, 03:05 PM
I have heard lots of discussions concerning QC issues with the new Kinetik batteries. It may be backlash from Kinetik being sold at Wal-Mart now. I don't really know. It was enough for me to look for a different brand. Duracell now makes automotive AGM batteries. No clue on quality but they are cheaper than most competitors and offer a good warranty. I would still go the BAP route if for no other reason than voltage stability. Just cheap lightweight insurance IMO.

The new electrical bulkhead connector is safer than the OEM. The hotwire kit from I purchased from Racetronix has a port in there for a BAP and I could use that if at all necessary...which I don't think it is with a twin pump set-up. Some tuners I spoke with have experienced voltage swings taking power from the alternator - I plan to take power from the battery for each pump.

The voltage should be very stable, just less. At 2psi activation for the other pump, I have plenty of fuel for forced induction. I agree though, single pump, BAP and stock fuel lines is budget friendly. I'm not taking the risk with the OEM electrical bulkhead connector and this twin pump route gives far better fuel regulation.

I've done a lot of digging on the V1 and the s2ki forums with fuel mods because I own both and have modded/in the middle of modding etc. There are more than a couple dozen melted relays and electrical bulkhead connectors using hotwires, BAP, or single drop in power hungry 340 fuel pumps. Some cases rear their ugly head in a couple days, some in a couple months. Lonnies and Racetronix both have reported anything over 13.5amps in the OEM electrical connector will do damage. I would caution anyone to upgrade the internal wiring and with a vapor seal before installing anything over a Walbro 255. Some have bypassed the electrical bulkhead and ran it straight down into the pumps - too many cases ended up with the fuel wicking its way up through the lines and giving fuel vapors, not good.

Thanks for the head's up on the Kinetik battery - did some mild digging and those AGM batteries have seriously low CCA. Might be best to use an AGM as a second battery in the trunk, idk haven't followed that path.

***Edit***
Not much dialogue here, doesn't need to be.



I was looking at your fuel bulkhead fitting:

BCWS-001 - Universal Bulkhead Wiring System, 4-Way

Does the 14AWG wire support larger pumps such as the Aeromotive 340 or the Walbro 400?

Thanks!

Yes.






The CTSV hotwire will not support the power requirements of a 340lph pump.

The venturi that keeps the bucket full is part of the regulator, Modifying these are rather complicated.

Hmm, the 10awg seems sufficient to power a 340lph drop in tank pump. If it draws more than 40 amps then yeah, the wire is insufficient.

Why do you think the Racetronix kit cannot power a 340lph fuel pump?


The bulkhead connector is only good for 13a.

Here is a link on the s2ki forums where a few have had melting relays with similar set-ups, a few of those guys posting on there have had a lot of trial/error and a ton of experience on that platform (It's a good read):
http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/1039775-has-anyone-had-any-burnt-relays-from-rewiring-a-fb340-fuel-pump/page__p__22736264__hl__fullblown__fromsearch__1#en try22736264

When I mod one car, I take the experience learned and carry that forward on other platforms as well.

FuzzyLogic
10-04-13, 06:55 PM
This is what happens when that connector goes (horrifying pictures after the jump):

http://ls1tech.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v/1288944-fuel-leak-fuel-pump-melting-smoking.html

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn240/ctsv510/d6b36326.jpg
Image credit: CTSV_510

FuzzyLogic
10-05-13, 02:05 AM
Here's what I bought for my door:

- One plain stainless steel 9.4x5.6" serving tray with a flat, wide border (linkage (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001EXJZ9O/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i02?ie=UTF8&psc=1))
- Two 3x1" bi-fold door hinges (linkage (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00E3NEPDI/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1))
- One 5.7x1.65" flush door pull, which I plan to JB Weld (linkage (http://www.amazon.com/Amico-Rectangle-14-5cm-Length-Cabinet/dp/B00BG8U7LW/ref=pd_sim_sbs_hi_1))
- Two 1.5x0.5" N42 neodynium magnets with twin countersunk holes (linkage (http://www.magnet4less.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_5&products_id=957))
- Custom fuel gasket made to fit from ACE Rubber Products (linkage (http://www.acerubberproducts.com/custom-gaskets.htm))

Once I put it together, I'll see if I like the way it looks. If not, it'll go in the recycling.

Also ordered:

- Allstar ALL11120 aluminum wrenches to avoid messing up the -AN fittings (linkage (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003BZR4XM/ref=oh_details_o03_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1))
- Dremel 8220-2/28 to finish enlarging the hole for the fuel system (linkage (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008DRY5AS/ref=oh_details_o03_s01_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1))
- Lots and lots of Dremel accessories
- Allstar ALL42151 3" brake hose, rated for 300 degrees (linkage (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006K8KCD6/ref=oh_details_o04_s01_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1))

If the brake hose melts, I'll be more than happy to replace it with 500+ degree hose, but I don't think that it'll get that hot because the LG G2 spindle kit should provide sufficient spacing from the rotor.

The 300 amp AD244 alternator arrived today, and I plan on installing the transmission tunnel heat shield tomorrow. Fingers crossed that it doesn't pour!

philistine
10-05-13, 03:21 AM
Looks like you have a busy weekend! The parts list for the trap door looks interesting...and different. Since they are DIY, you can get creative. Hopefully you get the tunnel shield in there and post the results - I'm curious how the Thermotec+DEI shield will quiet things down.

Regarding your tool list:
1)The best tool I used for grinding out the fuel module was a carbide grinder used for grinding out grout. It works like an end-mill and was helpful grinding all those angles - just be careful if that thing slips, it's taking out an arm, leg, eyeball, chunk of fuel module etc. I polished all the cuts with a grinding stone. These 2 dremel accessories were absolutely perfect.
link - carbide grout removal bit (http://www.amazon.com/Dremel-8-Inch-Carbide-Grout-Removal/dp/B00004UDID/ref=sr_sp-atf_title_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1380957282&sr=8-1&keywords=dremel+tungsten+carbide+grout)
link - carbide grinding stone (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00004UDKE/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
2) I used Forstner bits to make all the holes for the penetrations on the fuel module - don't use a dremel to make those holes. You want the exact size penetration hole and perfectly round in conjunction with a sealing ring on the underside.
link - Forstner Bits (http://www.amazon.com/Ryobi-A9FS8-8-Piece-Forstner-Bit/dp/B00D0B7YN2/ref=sr_sp-atf_title_1_2?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1380956517&sr=1-2&keywords=ryobi+forstner)

Also you might want to get aluminum jaws for your vice if you don't already have one if you are using a swivel-seal type AN end fittings. Using blocks of wood will only cause frustration. I have those same aluminum wrenches for AN fittings :2thumbs:

FuzzyLogic
10-05-13, 10:50 AM
Hey, feel free to tear the door idea a new one if you don't think it'll work. Although I know this is a car forum, I require little-to-no ego stroking and would rather hear people's concerns out. ;) My biggest concern is fitment, followed by the possibility of some fatass crushing the lid and everything under it. If my bouncing on the seat doesn't hurt it, I'll know I'm good--otherwise, I'm making a trip to Home Depot to build something sturdier.

By the way, I was looking for your tunnel shield dimensions picture, and ran across that picture of you (literally and figuratively) threading the bucket into the tank. What is that three-way adapter that you're using? Also, in the background, there was a picture of the standard KW Variant 3 springs. Are you considering picking up a pair of Swift springs for the rear? Finally, your alignment settings are going to be crazy out of whack when you get the car back together. Mine were insane--the poor alignment guy spent 2.5 hours of wrench time getting stuff back to where it was supposed to be, and that was with the correct Kent-Moore J-45845 camber tool. If you're interested in swapping your fuel ring locking tool with my camber tool for a couple of weeks, let me know. I'm afraid that I'm going to destroy this locking ring if I keep beating on it.

----------

http://i1345.photobucket.com/albums/p663/Fuzzylog1c/Misc%20CTS-V/DSC01467_zps655394bf.jpg (http://s1345.photobucket.com/user/Fuzzylog1c/media/Misc%20CTS-V/DSC01467_zps655394bf.jpg.html)

These are my alignment settings at the moment. The front camber is nowhere where I wanted it, but the alignment guy looked like he was about to drop after compensating for the Revshift control arm bushing installation. At least I remembered to throw two 80 lb bags of concrete in the front seat before he began work. ;)

Once I finish fine-tuning my ride height and dampening settings (90% done), I'll have him do -2.0 degrees front camber. The other settings are solid--I wouldn't want to increase front toe a whole lot more, or decrease rear toe any further.

philistine
10-05-13, 07:22 PM
From what I can tell you are going to take that tray and flip it to give some added room for larger -AN fittings (-10AN, -12AN). If that is the case I don't think that is going to help you because of the width of the tray. That flange area is where those AN fittings come in close (but not touching with -8AN) contact. The gas tank fits snug around the trap door opening which is the reason for the PEM self clinching nuts - they take up very little space on the under side and when pressed in correctly, they don't budge.

Here's a small recap and a little more detail on my trap door:

Here is the template I made giving the maximum width (front/back) to access the fuel module and give a 1 inch lip for a gasket. I actually ended up with 0.5-0.75 inch for the gasket on the width after cutting.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-09-08231912_zps724c3550.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-09-08231912_zps724c3550.jpg.html)

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-09-08185727_zps4521eab3.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-09-08185727_zps4521eab3.jpg.html)

I couldn't get a decent hole drilled in the car's sheet metal so I used this hole puncher. The hole has to be perfect shape for the PEM nuts.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-21153634_zps7ddd1d3a.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-21153634_zps7ddd1d3a.jpg.html)

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-21153410_zpsf8d50482.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-21153410_zpsf8d50482.jpg.html)

The sheet metal in the car is not perfectly flat. After punching the holes, I overlayed the gasket to mark the holes. Notice the holes are nowhere near in perfect alignment but they perform their job. The idea was to install a lot of fasteners to draw the car's sheet metal up to the 12 gauge SS cover and create a good seal with the 1/16" silicone high temp gasket.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-21112451_zps53b415d4.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-21112451_zps53b415d4.jpg.html)

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-21153844_zps92db1ee8.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-21153844_zps92db1ee8.jpg.html)

Finally, I painted it. I needed reference marks so I would know the correct orientation - A hand painted V logo suits it fine.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-29203558_zps727709ab.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-29203558_zps727709ab.jpg.html)

This is from post #7 - I gave links this time.

Trapdoor hardware:
gasket - link (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190861942766&ssPageName=ADME:L:OU:US:3160)
SS trap door cover - link (http://www.ebay.com/itm/400206670100)
PEM self clinching nuts - link (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=181113087494&ssPageName=ADME:L:OU:US:3160)
SS machine screws - link (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=400311550825&ssPageName=ADME:L:OU:US:3160)

I used this sheet metal hole punch. (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0002T87CW/ref=pe_385040_30332190_pe_175190_21431760_3p_M3T1_ ST1_dp_1) Another good source of metal is Online Metals. (http://www.onlinemetals.com/?gclid=CPzM8IjZgLoCFSgS7AodXFgARg)

Regarding the "adapter" for the fuel bucket supply lines - that was purchased at Home Depot, all aluminum. Then you go down a couple isles out of the tool section into the pipe fitting section and grab some NPT fittings. I used this for all my fittings.

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-21213743_zps17c4bfa8.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-21213743_zps17c4bfa8.jpg.html)

The reason is because the flexible line cannot fit on anything larger.

To answer your question about the springs, I'm strongly considering it. You did a lot of research on it and I can't find a reason why it wouldn't improve the suspension. When I wrap up the fueling I'll drop the fuel tool in the mail as a loaner/swap re-swap tools is fine with me. I won't be satisfied until I crank it up and take her for a test drive though.

FuzzyLogic
10-05-13, 08:06 PM
Sorry, I meant the triple-connection piece that the brass barbs fit into. Seems like standard Y-connector would be smaller and flow a little better. Unless you couldn't find one that was compatible with barbed fittings.

My opening for the fuel tank is biased toward the outside of the car on the passenger side. It's been a while since I've opened it up, but I think that the bulge in the tray will fit squarely over the 90 degree elbow. The gasket material is simply for water rejection, since the gas fumes are isolated through the bucket seal. So I believe that a pair of 24-lb magnets should be sufficient. If not, I can go bigger on the magnets, or I suppose I could search for a good latch. Ultimately, I don't want to copy your design (despite the fact that it's a nice, straightfoward solution) if I don't have to, since I'd like to have a door that I can open without tools.

I'm probably still a month out from construction on this thing, since I still need to get an extra fuel bucket (I can't afford to have the car down for more than a weekend at a time) and decide on bulkhead fittings. Basically, this whole thing is being rate-limited by cashflow and my ability to manage my time between work, fitness, and my master's degree.

philistine
10-06-13, 12:21 AM
Sorry, I meant the triple-connection piece that the brass barbs fit into. Seems like standard Y-connector would be smaller and flow a little better. Unless you couldn't find one that was compatible with barbed fittings.

Yeah I got that at Home Depot, where all the air compressor accessories are located. The blue fitting I ordered from Summit.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/2013-09-19001859_zpsba89a53e.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/2013-09-19001859_zpsba89a53e.jpg.html)

sssnake
10-07-13, 09:55 AM
Guys you are missing my point on the BAP. You don't have to turn the voltage up to get the extra voltage regulation. Adding a BAP is in effect adding a tightly regulated dc to dc power supply. It is a ton cheaper to run than an extra battery and will likely produce better results (depends on the batteries, there locations, and the wiring). It will definitely be lighter. How many more horsepower do you have to make to offset gaining 75 lbs worth of battery, wiring, and mounting hardware?

FuzzyLogic
10-07-13, 01:04 PM
Guys you are missing my point on the BAP. You don't have to turn the voltage up to get the extra voltage regulation. Adding a BAP is in effect adding a tightly regulated dc to dc power supply. It is a ton cheaper to run than an extra battery and will likely produce better results (depends on the batteries, there locations, and the wiring). It will definitely be lighter. How many more horsepower do you have to make to offset gaining 75 lbs worth of battery, wiring, and mounting hardware?

Sorry, I should have responded immediately. I think you're absolutely correct in that using a BAP to regulate the line voltage is a great idea. A DC-DC converter can have an unfiltered bandwidth of 100 Hz, or somewhere in the 10-20 Hz range if you slap a low-pass filter on the front end. I plan on installing one, but I need to look at a couple of different models and mounting solutions as part of my Big 3 and alternator upgrade. Ideally, I'd like to filter the output of the alternator and install the regulator as close to the bucket as possible.

By the way, hopefully you weren't implying with that "75 lbs" statement that you think that a BAP is all that's necessary to achieve the kind of transient performance we need. Increasing voltage excitation to a brushless DC motor to increase throughput puts a lot of stress on the pump and the electrical system because motor torque is linearly related to current.

sssnake
10-08-13, 01:19 AM
By the way, hopefully you weren't implying with that "75 lbs" statement that you think that a BAP is all that's necessary to achieve the kind of transient performance we need. Increasing voltage excitation to a brushless DC motor to increase throughput puts a lot of stress on the pump and the electrical system because motor torque is linearly related to current.

Nope just trying to suggest that a dual battery solution is likely not the most efficient. After weighing options my choice was a larger battery, relocated to the trunk, with BAP for the electrical.

I am still torn on the fluid flow side about going to a full return type system. I am not interested in breaking 700hp so what I have is likely OK but I want to look at a few data logs to be sure. After seeing this thread I will likely just take the plunge.

nikdsctsv
10-08-13, 03:26 PM
Sooooo......much in this thread. How do I make one of those gay heart symbols? <3 Ahh...there we go. :)

FuzzyLogic
10-08-13, 05:40 PM
Sooooo......much in this thread. How do I make one of those gay heart symbols? <3 Ahh...there we go. :)

For at least a year after girls started using that symbol, I thought it was supposed to represent boobs, not a heart. Turns out I was looking at it upside down.

philistine
10-10-13, 01:05 AM
Now I remember why I named this thread - I got about 200 ft of wiring and electrical crap all over my garage. Just got back from travel and opened all my packages that ordered before I left...only to find that I need to order more stuff!!! My hobbs switch came in and I was so focused on other things that I forgot to order the vacuum manifold, grrr! After investigating the brake booster line, I think the OEM boys shopped in the BBW isle - I gotta splice that thing for my vacuum manifold.

On a positive note the "riv-nuts" work like a charm and mounted the relays in a nice spot. My instincts are telling me to run the hotwire inside the car vs. outside under the frame. It's more work but it doesn't matter at this point.

FuzzyLogic
10-10-13, 12:01 PM
Running the wire inside the car is a problem because you have to get through the firewall. It's going to make inspecting the cable very hard. If you want me to dig up a picture of how to route cables through the driver's side grommet, let me know. Just note that I've been running the Racetronix kit parallel to the fuel lines for 12-18 months with no degradation, other than a little fading of the pigment. The kit is advertised as weatherproof, for what it's worth.

sssnake
10-10-13, 01:38 PM
If you are going to the trunk you might want to run the hot wire on the outside. Mine is run on the outside and it is never the lowest point along the path. Most of the path is along the passenger side rail in liquid tite conduit. It provides abrasion resistance as well as eliminating a firewall penetration.

philistine
10-10-13, 01:57 PM
Yeah pics would help!

I'm going to run the cable under the car and see how I like it. If I don't like it then I'm taking it into the interior. I could always use that spare OEM fuel supply line holster for the wires - I have all different size flex loom so will combine all the wires for a single run. It's not much cable to run, just need the signal wire from the Hobbs, and 2 main power wires for the relays. If you know of a good source to tap the ignition wire, let me know...gonna break out the FSM and start tracing and testing under the hood.

FuzzyLogic
10-10-13, 07:22 PM
I'm not sure if it's switched or not, but there's a beefy red power cable that runs along the driver's side floor of car and is routed into the driver's side fuse box. If your rear seat is out, push the carpet back next to the fuse box and take a peek.

philistine
10-11-13, 12:18 AM
Here's some of the wiring:

I chose this spot for the relays. I used 10-32 rivet nuts to secure the relays. Here I am drilling out a mount for the 1/4-20 grounds.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-10-10194138_zpsc4611679.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-10-10194138_zpsc4611679.jpg.html)

All the rivet nut anchors are complete for the relay mounts and associated grounds.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-10-10200630_zps736536fa.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-10-10200630_zps736536fa.jpg.html)

Time to grab a pile of wiring and start installing.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-10-10190844_zpsac0b006e.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-10-10190844_zpsac0b006e.jpg.html)
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-10-10213217_zpsb29c97da.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-10-10213217_zpsb29c97da.jpg.html)

The relays have been completely wired. Time to for some wire management to clean up the bird's nest of wires.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-10-10213253_zps05a7d076.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-10-10213253_zps05a7d076.jpg.html)

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-10-10225613_zps565a2afb.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-10-10225613_zps565a2afb.jpg.html)

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-10-10225629_zps5ea53fcf.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-10-10225629_zps5ea53fcf.jpg.html)

I had to make a lot of modifications to the Racetronix hotwire kit to incorporate my own fabrication. Anyways...my beer is getting warm, enjoy!

FuzzyLogic
10-11-13, 12:28 AM
Whoa, you ran two Racetronix kits? The bulkhead connector is less capable than one Racetronix kit (10 AWG), so I'm not sure why you have two.

philistine
10-11-13, 12:38 AM
I have 2 relays for 2 fuel pumps. One will function as primary and the other is triggered via pressure switch (Hobbs switch). Since each have a different trigger, each has to have a separate relay. The main power wire run is 10 awg from the power source then coming out of the relay is 12-14 awg to the fuel pumps - power source is run in parallel.

Seems pretty straight forward to me...

Edit:

Just in case I misunderstood. Here's a pic of the Racetronix kit that plugs to the OEM bulkhead connector.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-10-10190633_zpsac15dc15.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-10-10190633_zpsac15dc15.jpg.html)

The purple wire is the level indicator. The other is a ground and trigger. I depinned anything powering the fuel pumps and ran it to the new bulkhead connector from the hotwire kit.

One relay is a Racetronix hotwire kit, the other is one I fabbed up using a lot of their parts - they have great prices! So basically, the only thing going to the OEM bulkhead connector is level indication.

FuzzyLogic
10-11-13, 03:52 AM
Based on your pictures, it looks like you have one 4-way (yellow) Racetronix bulkhead connector, and the OEM connector. If you're planning on running only the level indication through the OEM connector, the primary pump through one relay and the secondary pump through the other, how are you getting power to the second pump without having a second bulkhead connector? I haven't looked into this yet, but I did buy a second Racetronix bulkhead connector with that possibility in mind.

philistine
10-11-13, 01:50 PM
The 4-way (yellow) bulkhead connector is good for 2 pumps...4-way = 4 wires. Each pump requires 1 power and 1 ground. So you only need 1 bulkhead connector for 2 pumps.

***Edit***

Here is the Racetronix electrical bulkhead (yellow) wiring connector and wires. The red and black from the harness is spliced to run the main pump - the red connects to the relay and the black goes to a common ground. The blue (positive) and purple (negative) connect similarly to the red (positive) and black (negative) to the other relay.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/20131011_150836_zpsb6553120.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/20131011_150836_zpsb6553120.jpg.html)

Here you can see where the wires split into 3 different paths from the relays. The 1st path holds the OEM connectors for the fuel tank level and trigger for the relay. The 2nd path holds the fuel pump power and ground. The 3rd path holds the trigger for the Hobbs pressure switch (for secondary fuel pump), and both 10awg power wires that go to either the battery or alternator.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/20131011_160048_zpse6b9be3c.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/20131011_160048_zpse6b9be3c.jpg.html)

It's a lot of custom wiring and modifications to the existing Racetronix hotwire to get the right lengths and clean install. The trigger for the Hobbs pressure switch has to be run to the intake manifold where I will be splicing into the brake booster to mount the Hobbs switch. I should be installing the pressure manifold this weekend which will give ports for boost/vacuum monitoring, Hobbs switch, and connections for wastegate and blow-off-valve.

Hope the pics help.

philistine
10-13-13, 05:53 PM
I was strokin' that ego marveling at the job well done when I suddenly noticed that the trailing arm part of the cradle fits exactly where I ran my fuel lines. Talk about panic, disgust, instant sober after drinking like a sailor etc.

Here is a reference pic - from Fuzzy's cradle bushing install thread.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/cae91f5a-b316-411e-b96a-f6dfcb35f80f_zps46dd7411.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/cae91f5a-b316-411e-b96a-f6dfcb35f80f_zps46dd7411.jpg.html)

Here are my fuel lines.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-10-13143224_zps75910f78.png (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-10-13143224_zps75910f78.png.html)

At 2am, I was like.....
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/198/010/tysonreaction.gif








But then....






I raised the cradle and it clears! - phuckin' whew!
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-10-13163201_zps8e7c81ca.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-10-13163201_zps8e7c81ca.jpg.html)

The pic looks like it pinches but it doesn't. There is even some wiggle room with the fuel lines but barely. There is sufficient strain relief on the lines. I'm going to wrap that area to protect chafing. The cradle doesn't move with my Delrin cradle bushings so that is a little more comfort too.

FuzzyLogic
10-13-13, 06:04 PM
I buy that. Totally agree on the wrap idea. Here are a couple of ideas:

http://www.amazon.com/Thermo-Tec-14035-I-D-Express-Sleeve/dp/B003HIPBJM/ref=sr_1_2?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1381701781&sr=1-2&keywords=express+sleeve
http://www.amazon.com/Thermo-Tec-14030-I-D-Express-Sleeve/dp/B003HIV3BM/ref=pd_luc_mrairec_01_01_t_lh?ie=UTF8&psc=1
http://www.amazon.com/Thermo-Tec-14005-I-D-Thermo-Sleeve/dp/B00029KC34/ref=pd_luc_gc_rec_02_03_t_lh?ie=UTF8&psc=1

On a related note, my other DW300 and the spare CTS-V bucket arrived. The door hardware looks pretty good (pictures later). Still missing the regulator, fuel rails, lines, and fittings. Still debating between -10AN and -12AN. But I can start to assemble the bucket. Question: do you know why people use ribbed hose instead of smooth-walled hose for the outlets of fuel pumps?

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-23214542_zps7ad7d53e.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-23214542_zps7ad7d53e.jpg.html)

It makes sense to use ribbed hose on the pump inlet, since the vacuum pulled by the pump would tend to want to suck the hose flat and the ribbed design provides great crush resistance. But for pressurized applications, smooth hose should be better because it flows better. Or am I looking at your picture wrong? It's been a while since I dug into the bucket...hopefully will get to it next week.

philistine
10-13-13, 06:28 PM
I have some of that same exact Thermotec sleeving left over so I'm going to use that. Regarding the corrugated fuel lines, I'm going to guess because of the bend radius it provides. The black hose used in the pic I picked up at Advance Autoparts - 5/16" EFI hose.

I want to point out the horseshoe feature on the fuel bucket - it interferes no matter how you position it. I ended up "dressing" it by cutting a notch. When you shove that thing in there it compresses a lot! The new fittings interfere with the horseshoe so just keep that in mind. Do a "hand squash test" on it.

FuzzyLogic
10-13-13, 07:40 PM
I have some of that same exact Thermotec sleeving left over so I'm going to use that. Regarding the corrugated fuel lines, I'm going to guess because of the bend radius it provides. The black hose used in the pic I picked up at Advance Autoparts - 5/16" EFI hose.

I want to point out the horseshoe feature on the fuel bucket - it interferes no matter how you position it. I ended up "dressing" it by cutting a notch. When you shove that thing in there it compresses a lot! The new fittings interfere with the horseshoe so just keep that in mind. Do a "hand squash test" on it.

I'll keep that in mind. Here's what I'm thinking on the fuel system, starting from the outlet of the pump. What follows is intended to provide the lowest practicable flow resistance to the pumps, since a parallel pump configuration does not provide additional pump head to overcome flow resistance like a series configuration does.


Immediately transition from 1/4" or 3/8" barb (not sure if will fit) to -8AN hose.

Convert from two -8AN to single -12AN hose via a MagnaFuel MP-6228 (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mrf-mp-6228/overview/) Y-block, then penetrate the bulkhead. 90 degree turn and over the tank.
OR: run both -8AN lines to separate -8AN bulkhead penetrators, and then join together to form a single -12AN line. This might be tricky, because I'd still have to fit the -10AN return from the regulator in there (three penetrations instead of two). It's a trade-off between vertical clearance and bulkhead space.


Aeromotive 12310 filter to the engine bay, and then through another Y-block to the -8AN fuel rails.

From the rails to the -8AN inputs on a front-mounted Aeromotive 13110 (recommended (http://aeromotiveinc.com/tech-help/frequently-asked-questions/faq-efi-regulators/)). This regulator has three -8AN inputs, one -10AN input, one -10AN return, one -4AN boost reference input, and a 1/8" NPT port for a gauge. I have no idea what the third -8AN input is for.

In the event that I run out of fuel a year or two, my contingency plan is a Kenne Bell Dual Boost-A-Pump ($460) to raise pump voltage to 17.5 VDC under load. According to the DW300 tech sheet, each pump should put out 275 LPH @ 13.5 VDC (a zero flow restriction figure, obviously) and a whopping 395 LPH at 18 VDC.

philistine
10-14-13, 12:00 PM
1. The barbs I used were 5/16" inside diameter. I used the tri-hole air fitting commonly used on MightyMouse's fuel upgrades and Frostbites. Just plugged the 3rd hole since not using it. I used that particular fitting because of the low footprint since the bucket design is not a hangar style and since the bucket compresses so much. The corrugated hose pieces will not fit on anything larger than a 5/16" barb.

2. Again, that bucket barely fits with just stock fittings. If you increase the diameter of the hose in and around the bucket, you will encounter fitment issues trying to squeeze that bucket in the tank. I could not fit the bucket in there with the EFI hose attached to the return port. I had to disconnect then reattach it while the bucket was in the tank - major PITA! The larger hose diameter interfered.

3/4. Interesting set-up. Feeding both sides at the same time is an optimal setup. I thought about doing it but opted for something with a cleaner look. I don't know how much benefit you'll get from that arrangement based on any experience...in other words, real life feedback from builds that use that particular set-up.

I know you're worried about flow and elbows give restrictions etc. but high flow long radius elbows work just fine. Just let the regulator do the work. The pumps are more than capable supplying -8AN hose size sufficiently to the rails with a few elbows in there - pressure, velocity and volume will equalize for high horsepower demands.

Personally, I would go with the smallest diameter fuel supply/return hose that I could get away with for high horsepower demands then work backwards. I would suggest a couple of washers when bolting up the fuel tank to give a little more clearance as the fuel lines exit and make their journey to the fuel rails. When it comes to SS fuel lines, I've heard more cases where people start out using it only to abandon it because they lose the fight trying to route it to the engine compartment. I had to run the fuel lines three times, 1st - to get the proper length and make the cuts and fittings, 2nd - to dry fit and mark placement of Adel clamps, 3rd - final install with heatshield wrap etc. The required work was the easy part...figuring out stuff took the longest time as you explore your options and order more parts.

1. Had a week delay when I realized I needed a 90 degree return fitting on the regulator. This was to keep the line away from the headers. I didn't notice it till I found a better path and decided no compromises.
2. Another delay when I noticed I needed heat shielding around the headers as it makes it way to the engine compartment - another order.
3. Another delay ordering ring terminals, flex loom and crimpers etc. when I was customizing my relay hotwires.
4. Another delay ordering a rivet nut set when I decided not to use self tapping metal screws for mounting the fuel lines, and relays.

Those are minor but ordering parts suck when your car is torn apart and you just wasted a weekend because you encountered unknowns. It would have been nice to get a self-contained kit complete with instructions so you could make a list of tools that you might need.

FuzzyLogic
10-14-13, 01:28 PM
2. Again, that bucket barely fits with just stock fittings. If you increase the diameter of the hose in and around the bucket, you will encounter fitment issues trying to squeeze that bucket in the tank. I could not fit the bucket in there with the EFI hose attached to the return port. I had to disconnect then reattach it while the bucket was in the tank - major PITA! The larger hose diameter interfered.

Based on your pictures, I understand why the mechanical interference was there. In this picture, how close are you to the bend radius of the hose? It looks like you tapped the port where the OEM regulator used to be. Did you consider using a larger diameter hose and just clamping it over the plastic port? Or, if you were set on a barbed fitting, why not a pair of 45 degree fittings? I'm guessing they just weren't what you had on hand.

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-09-23214601_zps1935ebfe.jpg

Before I forget again: is there a functional difference between the black, -6AN, 90 degree return fitting and the blue, -8AN, 90 degree feed line fitting? Size differences aside. It looks like they're both finishing their turns at the same distance below the bucket. That leads me to believe that the return fitting has a larger bend radius, but I could be wrong. It looks like it might have a little straight section before bending.


3/4. Interesting set-up. Feeding both sides at the same time is an optimal setup. I thought about doing it but opted for something with a cleaner look. I don't know how much benefit you'll get from that arrangement based on any experience...in other words, real life feedback from builds that use that particular set-up.

AFAIK, having the regulator at the front of the fuel rails ensures that, should you see a pressure drop between the rear-most and front-most injectors (which you might under WOT), you err on the side of dumping too much fuel into the rear-most cylinders instead of too little. Should make the car easier to tune--especially later in the game when I start working on the 3.3/4.0L Whipple build.[/quote]


I had to run the fuel lines three times, 1st - to get the proper length and make the cuts and fittings, 2nd - to dry fit and mark placement of Adel clamps, 3rd - final install with heatshield wrap etc. The required work was the easy part...figuring out stuff took the longest time as you explore your options and order more parts.

Amazon Prime FTW. But I understand where you're coming from--I've had whole projects held up for a week because I was missing $5 worth of stuff. Over the last few weeks, I've been ordering parts and beginning to mock things up in my apartment (since I don't have a nice garage like you--thankfully no wife). It's going to be very cold when I install this thing--this morning it was 43F.

Anyway, I need to get back out there--the transmission is out and I washed down the inside of the tunnel in preparation for the head shield/sound damper. Also installing a new pilot bearing and slave.

philistine
10-14-13, 04:02 PM
In this picture, how close are you to the bend radius of the hose? It looks like you tapped the port where the OEM regulator used to be. Did you consider using a larger diameter hose and just clamping it over the plastic port? Or, if you were set on a barbed fitting, why not a pair of 45 degree fittings? I'm guessing they just weren't what you had on hand.

The bend radius of the EFI hose was as close as I could get with just a little bit of relief for shoving it into the bucket - which was a moot point since I had to disconnect to get it in there then reconnect after it's in. I didn't use a 45 degree because I didn't think it was necessary. There was no interference with the level indicator so I didn't bother exploring any other options. I was totally set on a brass barbed fitting for clamping strength. Going with a larger diameter hose to fit over that port was not an option (in-bucket regulator) - way too bulky and I wanted to keep it slim. In the event of a high pressure difference for the return, I wanted something I could get a nice clamp on.



Before I forget again: is there a functional difference between the black, -6AN, 90 degree return fitting and the blue, -8AN, 90 degree feed line fitting? Size differences aside. It looks like they're both finishing their turns at the same distance below the bucket. That leads me to believe that the return fitting has a larger bend radius, but I could be wrong. It looks like it might have a little straight section before bending.

The choices for an adapter were few for the blue fitting - that's an Earl's fitting and picked that up at Summit. It connects the -8AN underside bulkhead to a 3/8 NPT to fit into the 3 port air fitting. That blue fitting gave just enough overhead for the round 3-port air fitting. The black fitting is a long radius bend and terminates at about the same level as the supply assembly. I needed it to be a swivel fitting to direct the return black hose away from interfering with the level indicator.


AFAIK, having the regulator at the front of the fuel rails ensures that, should you see a pressure drop between the rear-most and front-most injectors (which you might under WOT), you err on the side of dumping too much fuel into the rear-most cylinders instead of too little. Should make the car easier to tune--especially later in the game when I start working on the 3.3/4.0L Whipple build.

The only reason I asked is because I have never heard any real life feedback on that setup. A regulator at the exit of the fuel rails is all the information I've ever had. I've seen and heard a lot of feedback on ITBs but not much with fueling demands in any of the cylinders. The aftermarket fuel rails with larger volume is overkill for NA stuff and likely get no benefit but I would think that fuel hungry FI setups get more than sufficient fuel flow across all cylinders. In other words, larger volume rails compensate for equal volume for the injectors. In some tuning applications (no idea with HP Tuners), you can tune individual injectors.



Over the last few weeks, I've been ordering parts and beginning to mock things up in my apartment (since I don't have a nice garage like you--thankfully no wife). It's going to be very cold when I install this thing--this morning it was 43F.
Wife's are good for beer runs! Hopefully this thread knocks a big chunk out of the time it takes to do the fuel mod on this platform. I can change a fuel pump in my s2k in 2hrs start to finish with no rushing. If I had to run the fuel lines...probably 3 hrs start to finish. The CTS-V...I feel like I'm making a career project. I have no doubts a speedshop can do this in a weekend but at $100/hr for custom work...phor-gid-aboud-it (gangster voice). I might have them swap my engine when the time comes because they can yank, replace and tune in a day.

So I gotta ask...what's with the new pilot bearing and slave? You should have low miles on that since your last replacement.

FuzzyLogic
10-14-13, 05:00 PM
So I gotta ask...what's with the new pilot bearing and slave? You should have low miles on that since your last replacement.

I've never replaced the pilot bearing in this car. I meant to do it when I installed the McLeod RXT, but the effing rental tool was too big for the bearing. I didn't replace the slave last time, since it arrived the Monday instead of Friday like it was supposed to. So I'm taking care of them now while I've got the transmission out. Old pictures (I also replaced the FG2s with KW Variant 3's that weekend):

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/QuicksilverG4/CTS-V/McLeodRXT_zpse39cc786.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/QuicksilverG4/CTS-V/McLeodRXTandShifterInstall_zps2673cf2d.jpg

I also did a quick clean and inspect on my T-56, firstly because I accidentally flipped the nylon cup upside down when I installed the million shifter linkage bushings identified in Cadzilla's B&M LS1Tech thread (http://ls1tech.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v/1517800-b-m-shifter.html), secondly, to replace the main seal (preventative), and thirdly, to verify that the T-56 is in acceptable condition to do the TR6060 core swap thing (http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c5-general/2733717-we-turn-your-t56-into-a-tr6060-the-ultimate-transmisson.html). I intend to do the Z06 gear ratio (close ratio before 4th, with the tall 0.75/0.50 gearing after 4th) and either a 3.42 or 3.55 G-Force 9" IRS with the carbon fiber driveshaft option.

After that, it's a 427 LSX and a 3.3L or 4.0L Whipple (whichever will fit under my Extreme Composites hood...which I still haven't installed). Good thing I'm almost done procuring better brakes. :sneaky:

philistine
10-14-13, 09:08 PM
That's a pretty good list of power mods and those links are great! I need to get more info on that TR6060 internal swap. I did the shifter bandaids based on Cadzilla's thread and your impressions after you did them. I think the CS 8.8" is better suited for sub-1000 rwhp and the street but they are too close in price now to pass up bragging rights on having a 9" shoved under there.

Sorry to knock positive displacement super chargers e.g. roots style etc. but they are still prone to belt slippage and heat soak. Those things are always back in a shop getting the kinks out. I have them on my list but the top 2 are Procharger (still prone to belt slippage) or twin turbo. Luckily not far where I live there is a shop that does custom turbos over in ricer territory and my buddy just did 2 of his supras and his gtr and puts out stupid HP. I brought my s2k out there and I was on the low end with 550rwhp. My neighbor just did twin turbos on his Challenger frankenstein build - that was after a KenneBell SC blew his stock 5.7 due to a spun bearing - with turbo lag he's at 600rwhp briefly then climbs a short mountain to over 1000rwhp. My point is that in my experience SC's are a stepping stone to turbos.

Something else to think about is the other benefit of a turbo set-up...you can control the boost and have multiple tunes. I have 4 main tunes with my s2k and I daily drive with 400rwhp and do a boost by gear - this was to tame it for the street. When I take it to the strip, I have launch control 2-step, quick spool and shove 25psi boost down its throat.

On a side note, the last time I took the V to auto-x, my wife beat me with her FRS by 5 seconds, FAWK! Which is a large reason this thread was born.

FuzzyLogic
10-14-13, 10:01 PM
That's a pretty good list of power mods and those links are great! I need to get more info on that TR6060 internal swap. I did the shifter bandaids based on Cadzilla's thread and your impressions after you did them. I think the CS 8.8" is better suited for sub-1000 rwhp and the street but they are too close in price now to pass up bragging rights on having a 9" shoved under there.

Sorry to knock positive displacement super chargers e.g. roots style etc. but they are still prone to belt slippage and heat soak. Those things are always back in a shop getting the kinks out. I have them on my list but the top 2 are Procharger (still prone to belt slippage) or twin turbo. Luckily not far where I live there is a shop that does custom turbos over in ricer territory and my buddy just did 2 of his supras and his gtr and puts out stupid HP. I brought my s2k out there and I was on the low end with 550rwhp. My neighbor just did twin turbos on his Challenger frankenstein build - that was after a KenneBell SC blew his stock 5.7 due to a spun bearing - with turbo lag he's at 600rwhp briefly then climbs a short mountain to over 1000rwhp. My point is that in my experience SC's are a stepping stone to turbos.

Something else to think about is the other benefit of a turbo set-up...you can control the boost and have multiple tunes. I have 4 main tunes with my s2k and I daily drive with 400rwhp and do a boost by gear - this was to tame it for the street. When I take it to the strip, I have launch control 2-step, quick spool and shove 25psi boost down its throat.

On a side note, the last time I took the V to auto-x, my wife beat me with her FRS by 5 seconds, FAWK! Which is a large reason this thread was born.

The 9" isn't not about bragging rights. You need to need the features of the kit--otherwise you're adding additional weight and parasitic losses for nothing. For my build, I feel that I need the 1000 HP axles included with the G-Force kit, and the additional traction offered by the Strange S-Trac differential.

I understand what you're saying about the challenges inherent to positive displacement superchargers, but I've heard just as many people complain about the reliability of turbochargers. Personally, I want area under the curve and sustained boost capability. I've got a couple of ideas (including the use of a phenolic spacer and an insane cooling system) that should negate most of the traditional problems associated with superchargers. Check this out (if it starts you out at the beginning, skip to 0:50):


http://youtu.be/A3HxsY8ZCGE?t=50s

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-4cjkia487wg/UNSNs0H9xyI/AAAAAAAANdQ/4AGxQELp50w/s1000/lydondyno.jpg

From the moment that car crests 3250 RPM, he's playing with a nice, predictable 700-800 RWTQ all the way up to 7200 RPM. That car has ported heads, cam, 10:1 SCR, 1-7/8" Kooks headers, and 3" exhaust. Full specs here (http://www.dupontregistry.com/autos/search/DRauSearchDetails.aspx?itemid=1796185).

Can you list the things you've done during this build? I'm pretty sure you've thrown the odds vs. your wife in your favor, strongly, but I could tell you better if I wasn't guessing.

philistine
10-14-13, 10:40 PM
This thread has the following excluding cosmetic stuffs:

1) CS 8.8 kit with upgraded axles
2) Katech LS9X clutch with 12 lb flywheel
3) Twin DW300 fuel pumps, -8AN supply, -6AN return
4) Holley fuel rails, filter, and regulator
5) Two hotwire relays, one on a hobbs switch set for 2psi boost
6) Blox vacuum manifold spliced into the brake booster
7) CS trailing arms
8) DRT Centric rotors w/stock Brembo pads
9) ATI Superdamper
10) Banski spherical RSM
11) Shifter bandaids w/Tick bleeder

Things I already have installed:

a) KW V3 non modified springs
b)Hotchkis sways
c)Delrin cradle bushings
d)Stainless Works 3" headerback exhaust
e) Alradco radiator
f) SS brake lines
g) Katech shifter
h) Z06 end links

That is about as much I can recite atm. I have a spreadsheet on my other build, way too much crap to list as it is murdered (different platform). You will notice that I have not dug into the block because the LS6 is long in the tooth and out of production - not worthy of heavy investment. I also haven't touched the air intake because that will depend on FI. Her car (FRS) takes the corners like my s2k and she bounces off the rev limiter and hooks perfectly. I'm like a wild frat-boy all over the place fish-tailing just missing the cones. I make good time in the slaloms.

The V with Stainless Works headerback exhaust, click pic for video:
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/ctsv_dyno/th_ctsv_dyno_S_zpsff668c5c.jpg (http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/ctsv_dyno/ctsv_dyno_S_zpsff668c5c.mp4)

Pathetic:
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/ctsv_dyno/ctsv_dyno_zps7834e7b1.png (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/ctsv_dyno/ctsv_dyno_zps7834e7b1.png.html)

Not too interesting but this was a pull that produced 478 rwhp at the wheels before I upgraded injectors and fuel pump on the s2k, click pic for video:
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/s2k_misc/th_VIDEO0047_zpsc07fe48c.jpg (http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/s2k_misc/VIDEO0047_zpsc07fe48c.mp4)

This is what I built over last winter:
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/2003%20s2k%20-%20Hondata%20conversion/s2k%20-%20ac%20relocation/IMAG1437_zps0a5c04d1.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/2003%20s2k%20-%20Hondata%20conversion/s2k%20-%20ac%20relocation/IMAG1437_zps0a5c04d1.jpg.html)

This is the only high HP sheet I have, the others show tuning for the street. It peeked at 550 but I don't have that datasheet in my library. The limiting factor is the exhaust manifold and introduces knock after the 550 hump with 93 pump gas.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/2003%20s2k%20-%20Hondata%20conversion/8025000476_ae815f1b3b_c_zps8d7d8cdb.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/2003%20s2k%20-%20Hondata%20conversion/8025000476_ae815f1b3b_c_zps8d7d8cdb.jpg.html)

My street tune:
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/ss_s2k_dyno_zps97fc92d3.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/ss_s2k_dyno_zps97fc92d3.jpg.html)

FuzzyLogic
10-14-13, 11:30 PM
1) CS 8.8 kit with upgraded axles

Significantly better traction around corners, when launching the car, and in the rain, since the OEM differential is open. No personal experience with a CTS-V with this mod, but from what everyone says, it sounds like it's a huge difference.


2) Katech LS9X clutch with 12 lb flywheel

With that lightweight flywheel, your car will rev almost twice as fast, accelerate faster, and rev-match much easier. Getting started off the line will require a deft touch, though.


3) Twin DW300 fuel pumps, -8AN supply, -6AN return
4) Holley fuel rails, filter, and regulator
5) Two hotwire relays, one on a hobbs switch set for 2psi boost

Supporting mods. As you know, no benefit until you add power.


6) Blox vacuum manifold spliced into the brake booster

No idea what that is.


7) CS trailing arms

The trailing arms themselves won't do anything for you, but the 90A bushings that come with it will help hold your alignment settings when you hit the gas and brake. When I did the 95A TiC trailing arm bushings, I noticed the difference right away.


8) DRT Centric rotors w/stock Brembo pads

I believe they're a touch heavier than stock. You probably won't notice anything, except for the slot passing frequency when you brake.


9) ATI Superdamper

A solid investment in engine longevity. I installed mine at the same time as my cam, so it's hard to say how much smoother the engine ran.


10) Banski spherical RSM

Again, no discernable difference. A good investment in the longevity of your KW Variant 3's.


11) Shifter bandaids w/Tick bleeder

Not sure which shifter bandaids you did (all of them?), but if you did the Home Depot mod, along with UUC rail bushings and the brass center linkage bushing that PISNUOFF sells, the shifter should have half the slop that it did previously. Make sure you really torque down those shifter plate bolts, and the bolts that hold the linkage to the car. If either of those bolts let go, the shifter will feel sloppy no matter how many other linkage mods you do.


Things I already have installed:

a) KW V3 non modified springs
b)Hotchkis sways
c)Delrin cradle bushings
d)Stainless Works 3" headerback exhaust
e) Alradco radiator
f) SS brake lines
g) Katech shifter
h) Z06 end links

As you already know, I recommend a set of adjustable Supra end links for the front and the rear (yes, you can use them despite the fact that you drilled out the front for the Z06 end links). Those end links will finally put an end to any worries you have about damaging your KW Variant 3 shock body, and eliminate that annoying diagonal cross between the bar and the control arm. 896 in-lb Swift springs for the rear of your KW Variant 3 kit will radically change the way the car handles. If you have an extra $250 burning a hole in your pocket, you might want to consider selling your front Hotchkis bar and upgrading to an Addco bar. It's definitely stronger than the Hotchkis bar, and assuming you get a good alignment afterwards, it should help keep your front end pinned to the road when cornering hard. Katech shifter FTW, by the way. Every time I see it, I grin. Such a nice piece.

----------

Cleaned tunnel:

http://i1345.photobucket.com/albums/p663/Fuzzylog1c/Tunnel%20Damper/DSC01563_zps2309829a.jpg (http://s1345.photobucket.com/user/Fuzzylog1c/media/Tunnel%20Damper/DSC01563_zps2309829a.jpg.html)

I had to unbolt the driver's side header to get the bell housing out. Want to pull both headers out and rewrap them.

philistine
10-15-13, 11:44 AM
I did all the shifter "bandaids" including the PISNUOFF brass & Delrin bushings. Most of these mods are laying down a foundation for more power and preventative maintenance. The FRS is impressive with low speed auto-x and luckily in another class - it gets lazy in 3rd gear. The factory handling needs nothing.

The Blox vacuum manifold is nothing more than a multi-port for tapping gauges, Hobbs switch, WG, BOV etc. LG motorsports makes one but it is way out of market price and has no aesthetic appeal for under the hood ornaments.

I think I might do the Swiftsprings and the Supra endlinks - I'll wait on the front sway. I was looking at some Miata endlinks but you already did your homework on the Supra stuff.

I also had issues with the bellhousing and it shredded my headerwrap, I just re-wrapped a section in place so I didn't have to remove it. I noticed the fiberglass material was very brittle and looks like a blowtorch was taken to my Revshift MMs - they sent new ones with thermo-jackets.

The trans-tunnel looks clean! How did the install go?

FuzzyLogic
10-15-13, 01:48 PM
The trans-tunnel looks clean! How did the install go?

Frustrated. The pilot bearing would not come out. I broke both of the slide hammer attachments trying to get it out. I also tried to remove that stuck MM bolt with a bolt extractor bit and that failed too. So I'm still running with one OEM mount and one CS mount.

The tunnel looks good, but nowhere near as nice as yours. I also wrapped the bell housing:

http://i1345.photobucket.com/albums/p663/Fuzzylog1c/Tunnel%20Damper/DSC01577_zps91cc24ba.jpg (http://s1345.photobucket.com/user/Fuzzylog1c/media/Tunnel%20Damper/DSC01577_zps91cc24ba.jpg.html)
http://i1345.photobucket.com/albums/p663/Fuzzylog1c/Tunnel%20Damper/DSC01573_zpsdb0ab429.jpg (http://s1345.photobucket.com/user/Fuzzylog1c/media/Tunnel%20Damper/DSC01573_zpsdb0ab429.jpg.html)
http://i1345.photobucket.com/albums/p663/Fuzzylog1c/Tunnel%20Damper/DSC01570_zpsc6cf1b0f.jpg (http://s1345.photobucket.com/user/Fuzzylog1c/media/Tunnel%20Damper/DSC01570_zpsc6cf1b0f.jpg.html)

FuzzyLogic
10-15-13, 03:52 PM
Thermo-Tec / Tunnel Shield II tunnel comparison:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/QuicksilverG4/DSC01561_zpsb2c66945.jpg~original
http://i1345.photobucket.com/albums/p663/Fuzzylog1c/Tunnel%20Damper/DSC01607_zps9ebfdd44.jpg (http://s1345.photobucket.com/user/Fuzzylog1c/media/Tunnel%20Damper/DSC01607_zps9ebfdd44.jpg.html)
http://i1345.photobucket.com/albums/p663/Fuzzylog1c/Tunnel%20Damper/DSC01596_zpsecad6753.jpg (http://s1345.photobucket.com/user/Fuzzylog1c/media/Tunnel%20Damper/DSC01596_zpsecad6753.jpg.html)

I have no idea how you got it applied as cleanly as you did. I did two layers of DEI Thermal Tape over most of the borders. The Tunnel Shield II layer was easier to apply than the Thermo-Tec, because I could form it to the tunnel before pulling off the backing material. By the way, that backing material is the most incredibly crinkly stuff EVER. Wrapping paper has nothing on it.

philistine
10-15-13, 08:15 PM
That's a fine lookin tunnel shield! You even wrapped the bell housing. My technique was to work from the center then outwards but that is easier said then done.

FuzzyLogic
10-15-13, 08:27 PM
That's a fine lookin tunnel shield! You even wrapped the bell housing. My technique was to work from the center then outwards but that is easier said then done.

Psh. Your job was basically perfect--mine is definitely serviceable, but much uglier. Most of the problems I had smoothing out the tunnel shield were associated with the Thermo-Tec layer beneath.

In retrospect, I should have folded each thermal/dampening layer into a upside-down V, with the adhesive facing upward. Once the tip of the V was perfectly aligned down the center of the transmission tunnel, then you could expand it outward.

This should make a big difference in terms of heat and noise transfer into the cabin. The whole area sounds dead as hell.

philistine
10-15-13, 10:14 PM
This should make a big difference in terms of heat and noise transfer into the cabin. The whole area sounds dead as hell.

That's awesome! I'm putting my car back together during the week so hopefully I get to test it out this weekend. I read the mile long thread on the Revshift transmount so I'm wondering if more will take this route if it quiets things down considerably.

So my vacuum manifold comes in...
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-10-15205534_zps7af57147.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-10-15205534_zps7af57147.jpg.html)

I ordered black and I get friggin gold bling! So Amazon corrects it by sending me another the same color. I snatched a black one from ebay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/BLOX-VACUUM-MANIFOLD-TURBO-INTEGRA-PRELUDE-CIVIC-BLACK-BXAC-00403-BK-/320985510539) and it was $10 cheaper.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-10-15205505_zpsa7c39974.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-10-15205505_zpsa7c39974.jpg.html)

Anyways, this is going to be the port for the Hobbs and all the other crap I need for the turbos - just imagine it in black, they come in all sorts of colors.

lollygagger8
10-16-13, 09:28 AM
I bought that DEI tunnel shield stuff (thanks for the tip) so when I put put my new clutch in, I'll report back and see how much it helped.

jclayc
10-16-13, 11:13 AM
agreed - thanks for the heads up on the DEI Tunnel Shield - I installed it when my trans was out last week and it works really well (a little hard to work with but...)

FuzzyLogic
10-17-13, 01:35 AM
By the way, the Thermo-Tec 14005 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00029KC34/ref=oh_details_o03_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1) 1/2" sleeve is great for protecting your remote clutch bleeder line. Highly recommended. I wish it was 18" longer, for aesthetic purposes, but it still reaches from the slave cylinder fitting all the way to the top of the engine bay. That's all you really need.

The plastic sleeving on my braided line had melted in one place where it passed within 3" of my DEI titanium-wrapped headers. I'm glad I caught this in time.

lollygagger8
10-17-13, 09:23 AM
agreed - thanks for the heads up on the DEI Tunnel Shield - I installed it when my trans was out last week and it works really well (a little hard to work with but...)

Did it help a lot with noise/vibes?

philistine
10-17-13, 10:46 AM
Seems anything passing by the headers is toast whether the headers are wrapped or not. I use some hi-temp flex loom in a lot of the areas doing electrical custom work and have great success using this:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005KLBOSQ/ref=oh_details_o08_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

It's so cheap, I stock up on 1/4", 3/8", 1/2". Not bad to have handy if you shred the OEM flex loom during a clutch install. Then put a few wraps of the DEI cooltape in some key areas.

I am also very curious with the driving impressions with the DEI tunnel shield and those that used a resonance barrier in conjunction with it. I only read some of the feedback on the Miata forums for those that track their cars and it greatly reduced the temperatures on those platforms the byproduct was a significantly quieter cabin - heh but that's comparing an already pretty quiet Cadillac to a noisy roadster.

FuzzyLogic
10-17-13, 11:01 AM
I am also very curious with the driving impressions with the DEI tunnel shield and those that used a resonance barrier in conjunction with it. I only read some of the feedback on the Miata forums for those that track their cars and it greatly reduced the temperatures on those platforms the byproduct was a significantly quieter cabin - heh but that's comparing an already pretty quiet Cadillac to a noisy roadster.

My car should be back together this afternoon, and I'll give you what I can. My back seat is still out, so it's loud in there, but I have a McLeod RXT, so I should be able to gauge the effectiveness of the sound dampening via the floater rattle at idle. The only place where your impressions might not match mine are where the bellhousing comes into play--I wanted a couple of layers there because of the beforementioned twin-disc rattle characteristic.

jclayc
10-17-13, 12:13 PM
I don't have any verifiable way to gauge whether the noise was reduced - mine's pretty loud inside with no carpet but I think it reduced noise/vibrations just a bit. Heat was my #1 concern and my tunnel (no carpet) went from too hot to comfortably touch to only a little warm.

FuzzyLogic
10-17-13, 02:01 PM
Heat was my #1 concern and my tunnel (no carpet) went from too hot to comfortably touch to only a little warm.

That's what I'm excited about. In the summer, I have to run the A/C continuously to keep the cabin comfortable. The moment I turn it the A/C off, the engine/transmission/exhaust heat roasts the interior.

liqidvenom
10-18-13, 07:08 AM
Frustrated. The pilot bearing would not come out. I broke both of the slide hammer attachments trying to get it out. I also tried to remove that stuck MM bolt with a bolt extractor bit and that failed too. So I'm still running with one OEM mount and one CS mount.

The tunnel looks good, but nowhere near as nice as yours. I also wrapped the bell housing:

http://i1345.photobucket.com/albums/p663/Fuzzylog1c/Tunnel%20Damper/DSC01577_zps91cc24ba.jpg (http://s1345.photobucket.com/user/Fuzzylog1c/media/Tunnel%20Damper/DSC01577_zps91cc24ba.jpg.html)
http://i1345.photobucket.com/albums/p663/Fuzzylog1c/Tunnel%20Damper/DSC01573_zpsdb0ab429.jpg (http://s1345.photobucket.com/user/Fuzzylog1c/media/Tunnel%20Damper/DSC01573_zpsdb0ab429.jpg.html)
http://i1345.photobucket.com/albums/p663/Fuzzylog1c/Tunnel%20Damper/DSC01570_zpsc6cf1b0f.jpg (http://s1345.photobucket.com/user/Fuzzylog1c/media/Tunnel%20Damper/DSC01570_zpsc6cf1b0f.jpg.html)

This isnt the most high tec was to remove a pilot bearing but i used the wet paper trick on mine and it worked pretty well. maybe 3-4 sheets torn into small peices and hammered in there using an extension which fits into the pilot hole and in about 10 mins i had it out.

FuzzyLogic
10-18-13, 08:56 AM
This isnt the most high tec was to remove a pilot bearing but i used the wet paper trick on mine and it worked pretty well. maybe 3-4 sheets torn into small peices and hammered in there using an extension which fits into the pilot hole and in about 10 mins i had it out.

What would you say about those articles that say not to do that?

Couple of random pictures. First, my Omega temperature strips came in. I'm going to see whether or not I need to wrap my exhaust to protect a carbon fiber driveshaft (a temporary holdover at best--there's a ceramic coated B&B exhaust on my wishlist). The temperature limit on carbon fiber is 250F, so these strips should tell me if I need to be worried.

http://i1345.photobucket.com/albums/p663/Fuzzylog1c/Tunnel%20Damper/DSC01680_zps51ec1348.jpg (http://s1345.photobucket.com/user/Fuzzylog1c/media/Tunnel%20Damper/DSC01680_zps51ec1348.jpg.html)

I've also been trying out the Earl's 280040 speed bleeder (http://www.amazon.com/Earls-280040-Metric-Bleeder-Screws/dp/B000CN9DW6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1382100512&sr=8-1&keywords=earl%27s+speed+bleeder) on my remote clutch line. As of right now, I can't recommend it because I'm having trouble getting my clutch pedal back, but that might be due to the fact that I increased the torque on my pressure plate bolts to the full, McLeod recommended 35 ft-lbs. It may be a week or two before I know for certain what is to blame. As you can see in the picture below, I also picked up a magnetic fender cover (http://www.amazon.com/JEGS-Performance-Products-Magnetic-Fender/dp/B0081ZZTOS/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1382100614&sr=8-5&keywords=fender+cover), which has been great for working in the engine bay because a) I don't have to worry about the paint when leaning over the fender, and b) the strong magnets actually hold medium sized wrenches and bolts securely. I could probably drive off with those two wrenches stuck to the fender liner.

http://i1345.photobucket.com/albums/p663/Fuzzylog1c/Misc%20CTS-V/DSC01649_zpsd987c56e.jpg (http://s1345.photobucket.com/user/Fuzzylog1c/media/Misc%20CTS-V/DSC01649_zpsd987c56e.jpg.html)

http://i1345.photobucket.com/albums/p663/Fuzzylog1c/Misc%20CTS-V/DSC01660_zps89beebc5.jpg (http://s1345.photobucket.com/user/Fuzzylog1c/media/Misc%20CTS-V/DSC01660_zps89beebc5.jpg.html)

http://i1345.photobucket.com/albums/p663/Fuzzylog1c/Misc%20CTS-V/DSC01640_zps1a3f5b4a.jpg (http://s1345.photobucket.com/user/Fuzzylog1c/media/Misc%20CTS-V/DSC01640_zps1a3f5b4a.jpg.html)

The above shows how I determine whether there are any bubbles left.

I drove around a little bit this morning--I'm going to post about this later, but the Revshift driveshaft coupler is an absolute no-go. Massive vibration above 21 mph. They shouldn't sell it. It's not their fault that our driveline is all messed up, but unless they can prove that the part works with the stock CTS-V IRS + Revshift/CS bushings, they should focus their efforts on other things.

Oh, and by the way, I can't hear the transmission. But let me get this clutch thing fixed and drive at speed before I develop full impressions.

lollygagger8
10-18-13, 09:12 AM
http://i1345.photobucket.com/albums/p663/Fuzzylog1c/Misc%20CTS-V/DSC01649_zpsd987c56e.jpg (http://s1345.photobucket.com/user/Fuzzylog1c/media/Misc%20CTS-V/DSC01649_zpsd987c56e.jpg.html)

http://i1345.photobucket.com/albums/p663/Fuzzylog1c/Misc%20CTS-V/DSC01660_zps89beebc5.jpg (http://s1345.photobucket.com/user/Fuzzylog1c/media/Misc%20CTS-V/DSC01660_zps89beebc5.jpg.html)


What did you put on the inside of the CAI shield?

liqidvenom
10-18-13, 09:43 AM
I would say that if you take your time, then you should be ok. some might say no for certain platforms but this is a trick older than many people writing these books.

FuzzyLogic
10-18-13, 10:19 AM
What did you put on the inside of the CAI shield?

DEI Reflect-A-Cool (http://www.amazon.com/DEI-010412-Reflect-A-Cool-Heat-Shield/dp/B000E267J2/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1382105723&sr=8-8&keywords=dei+reflect) on both sides with Cool Tape (http://www.amazon.com/DEI-010416-1-375-Cool-Tape/dp/B000E267JW/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1382105888&sr=8-2&keywords=dei+tape) on the top edge. Fair warning: it's very, very hard to apply, and you need to degrease the living crap out of the plastic before this stuff will stick. If I had to do it again, I would use a couple sheets of Reflect-A-GOLD (http://www.amazon.com/DEI-010392-Reflect-A-GOLD-12-Sheet/dp/B0039Z5TRC/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1382105723&sr=8-2&keywords=dei+reflect) and create a template beforehand. Also, edging is very important--if the upper edge of the material isn't battened down, you'll destroy your handiwork when you install/remove the rubber gasket.

FuzzyLogic
10-18-13, 06:05 PM
Okay, clutch issue solved. I just needed to pump the pedal a few more times with the system buttoned up. It's a little less perfect than I'd like, but I'm going to run a quart through the system this weekend to see if I can get everything working perfectly. If I succeed, I'll do a PSA on the Earl's and Russel bleeders for your remote line and caliper nipples.

The good news is that the sound dampening / heat insulation layer works. Extremely well. It cut every sound the transmission made in half. And whereas previously I would place my hand on the shifter boot and feel heat rising from the tunnel area, after an aggressive 30 minute run, I felt nothing. The leather was at cabin ambient temperature.

philistine
10-18-13, 08:29 PM
The good news is that the sound dampening / heat insulation layer works. Extremely well. It cut every sound the transmission made in half. And whereas previously I would place my hand on the shifter boot and feel heat rising from the tunnel area, after an aggressive 30 minute run, I felt nothing. The leather was at cabin ambient temperature.

Awesome! I've never noticed heat rising from the tunnel area from the shifter boot though - at least not enough to bring it to my attention.

I just covered the spare tire well with the RattleTrap stuff - I have a ton of it and it worked very well on my other car cutting down drone, so can't hurt. It's the first application mitigating the resonance. I'm looking into your other suggestions Fuzz...just trying to work through the mess putting everything back together.

As far as that "shade-tree" technique removing the pilot bearing - I have no experience with it but I know about it and came to my own conclusion not to do it either. A robust slide hammer and a lot of patience would be my personal preference. I've done things others have protested such as pressing bearings by applying block of wood and hammer taps when a small amount of force is required - it's what you are comfortable doing and accepting the risks.

***Edit***
I just ordered that fender cover (http://www.amazon.com/JEGS-Performance-Products-Magnetic-Fender/dp/B0081ZZTOS/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1382100614&sr=8-5&keywords=fender%20cover&tag=viglink121836-20), man this thread has all the elements of "retail therapy".

FuzzyLogic
10-18-13, 10:32 PM
I think the transmission tunnel can get pretty damn hot--especially if you have headers. We'll know for certain once I check that Omega strip (http://i1345.photobucket.com/albums/p663/Fuzzylog1c/Tunnel%20Damper/DSC01680_zps51ec1348.jpg). During my shakedown cruise at Slowhawk, I was riding shotgun and holding the HP Tuners laptop while Don drove. IIRC, my EGTs were in the 1000-1200F range. Makes me think I should shield the transmission from the cats before I consider installing a transmission oil cooler.

Another note in the sound department: the sound damper definitely cleans up the sound of the exhaust within the cabin. It's subtle, but appreciable. During my initial drive, from within the cabin, I noticed that my exhaust sounded different--cleaner/deeper--but given the number of modifications I had made, I was concentrating on testing the car and listening for any signs of installation error before it became a problem. Tonight, however, I was free to enjoy the drive and realized that what I had "heard" earlier was actually a lack of gear noise from the transmission. Don't get me wrong--my T56 is in good condition and would have been considered a quiet-running unit before. But with the damper installed, that noise was barely detectable, making it just a little easier to hear the engine and the exhaust instead.

philistine
10-18-13, 11:23 PM
It's about time for some pics:

Here is the spare tire area wrapped with "RattleTrap Extreme (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003TUNRGM/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)" resonance barrier. This went from sounding like a bass drum to a dull thud.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-10-18221111_zps6b30e92b.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-10-18221111_zps6b30e92b.jpg.html)

Here are the Banski RSM (http://ls1tech.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v/1667534-group-buy-opportunity-banski-spherical-rear-shock-mount-rsm.html) installed on the bottom. In the middle is all the stuff taken off if installed with the standard KW V3 kit with OEM rubber etc. On the top is what was removed.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-10-18220901_zps518afdbd.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-10-18220901_zps518afdbd.jpg.html)

FuzzyLogic
10-18-13, 11:58 PM
Nice and neat there on the trunk. Our jobs there look very similar. Out of curiosity, when do you think you'll have a chance to take this thing for a drive?

philistine
10-19-13, 12:50 AM
Nice and neat there on the trunk. Our jobs there look very similar. Out of curiosity, when do you think you'll have a chance to take this thing for a drive?

Thanks! Had some unplanned interruptions that is causing me to split my time - Barber's Motorsports (https://barbermotorsports.com/indy/) et al. I expect at least another week since my weekend if filling up fast. I've only had time to tinker late at night. I also just got an ATI super damper in and want to install that while I got stuff tore apart.

Any suggestions what to combine while installing the ATI damper?

FuzzyLogic
10-19-13, 10:00 AM
Any suggestions what to combine while installing the ATI damper?

If you're planning on doing a motor swap in the next year, there's not much you *should* do. If that were not the case, I would say that this is a perfect time to do a cam, pin the crank, replace the timing chain with a Katech C5-R, upgrade to a LS2 chain damper using the TrickFlow TFS-30675600 adapter kit (http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/instructions/tfs-30675600.pdf), install a high volume oil pump, and either a LS3 water pump or Meziere 300 Series.

This is all I could think of:


If you're going to pull the bumper, consider a Fluidyne FHP-10029 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Genuine-Fluidyne-EXTRA-Heavy-Duty-V8-Towing-RV-Automatic-Transmission-Cooler-New-/221244228976?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item33832f0570&vxp=mtr) power steering cooler. This is the successor to the FHP-10026 identified in the CTS-V FAQ page (http://www.cadillacfaq.com/faq/answers/steeringcooler/). I replaced my cooler in the March-April timeframe and have been pleased by its performance. Without it, my CTS-V was like a magical brown fluid maker. Clear fluid in, turn the wheel, all brown. ;) Back then, eBay seller accepted my offer of $28, but when I told other people on this forum about it, a whole bunch of people made the same offer and he raised his price. Maybe he's come down again. For fluid, I usually use Redline power steering fluid (http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=79&pcid=27) (#30405).

If you wanted to upgrade to an Alradco, or do a better alternator, this would probably be a good time. But you'll have another opportunity for both when/if you do the motor swap.

Speaking of radiator, since you're going to be flushing your fluids, I'd recommend picking up a bottle or two of Redline Water Wetter (http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=74&pcid=10). It's certainly not as awesome as AMSOIL Dominator (http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/other-products/antifreeze/dominator-coolant-boost/?page=%2fstorefront%2frdcb.aspx), but it's much easier to obtain.

philistine
10-19-13, 02:29 PM
That's a nice list of "to-do's"! Really appreciate all the info. - good stuff! I have a lot of that already. You raise a very good point...why invest in a block that you are replacing anyways. I should be replacing the block around April-June time frame. The LSX is on my mind for it's boost friendly design but will be exploring my options.

FuzzyLogic
10-19-13, 03:08 PM
If he has time, I think that PISNUOFF can provide valuable feedback regarding engine builds. If I recall correctly, he had a Texas Speed 418 CID LS3 go south on him and responded by having a reputable engine builder construct one of the most durable, boost-ready 427 LSX short blocks I've seen. I was all gung-ho on the idea of buying an aluminum 416 CID LS3 with LSA heads until I talked to him and started to look at the different ways that aluminum and iron respond to the kind of heat associated with 18-20 PSI of boost.

If you think about it, atmospheric pressure is 14.7 PSI and you're more than doubling that in the cylinders. Assuming you hold your AFR constant, you're going to be delivering more than double the amount of fuel to each cylinder. That's hot--way hotter than your normal production engine and materials were designed to withstand. Even if you build your cooling system up to compensate, the thermal impedance of the materials between the coolant and the combustion chambers is fixed (relatively speaking); materials close to the combustion chamber will be much hotter than before and must be capable of withstanding this heat without softening, deforming, cracking, or buckling.

philistine
10-20-13, 09:48 PM
More pics:

Figured I'd get a rear shot after the cradle is bolted back up.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-10-20194419_zps6bbdee23.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-10-20194419_zps6bbdee23.jpg.html)

Brakes & rotors installed.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-10-20194403_zps39928167.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-10-20194403_zps39928167.jpg.html)

My fuel lines.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-10-20203928_zps4e8d9305.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-10-20203928_zps4e8d9305.jpg.html)
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-10-20203835_zpsaa9ddcb1.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-10-20203835_zpsaa9ddcb1.jpg.html)
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-10-20203941_zps3b8fef78.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-10-20203941_zps3b8fef78.jpg.html)

I decided to run the hotwire(s) for the fuel pump along the same path as the fuel lines. After a lot of asking around, it's very common and none have run into issues.

FuzzyLogic
10-20-13, 09:52 PM
Looking good. What kind of coating do you have on the underbody?

philistine
10-20-13, 09:58 PM
Looking good. What kind of coating do you have on the underbody?

Thanks! My fuel line pics gets me a little exposed to critique but decided to do it anyways. It's tucked where no rubbing can occur from the road. I separated the electrical lines from the fuel lines running top & bottom and all is wrapped with Thermotec sleeving in proximity to the headers. The hotwires are secured in high temp flex loom. I used a combination of SS tie wraps and the typical plastic and used the Adel clamps for redundancy securing all the fresh lines.

I'm not in a snow state - factory coating for the underbody.

FuzzyLogic
10-20-13, 10:09 PM
Psssst...you forgot the 896 in-lb Swift springs!

philistine
10-20-13, 10:16 PM
Psssst...you forgot the 896 in-lb Swift springs!

I know right! I figure after "break-in" I'll order and install them otherwise this car isn't ever getting back on the road! The springs are in budget :yup:

FuzzyLogic
10-20-13, 10:21 PM
I know right! I figure after "break-in" I'll order and install them otherwise this car isn't ever getting back on the road! The springs are in budget :yup:

Fair enough. Until then, the ass end of the car is going to be unsupportive around corners. So hurry up--they're only $170 (he says to the guy that's $500 in front of him on the fuel system and $5000 in front of him on the differential)! ;)

Also, before one of us (or both of us) forgets, what kind of brackets did you end up using to attach your hoses to the underbody? Also, I'm thinking about installing separators at intervals down the line to keep the runs clean. Probably something like this (http://www.ebay.com/itm/12AN-12-AN12-24mm-Billet-Fuel-Hose-Black-Hose-Separator-Fittings-Adapter-SEP-12-/300751820714?pt=Race_Car_Parts&hash=item46063497aa&vxp=mtr), or something with a little bit better clampage on the ends like this (http://www.ebay.com/itm/20mm-13-16-SILVER-HOSE-CABLE-SEPARATOR-AN12-AN-12-BRAIDED-TEFLON-PTFE-HOSE-/141021971126?pt=Race_Car_Parts&hash=item20d59082b6). Do you think it's worth the money?

philistine
10-20-13, 10:48 PM
Fair enough. Until then, the ass end of the car is going to be unsupportive around corners. So hurry up--they're only $170 (he says to the guy that's $500 in front of him on the fuel system and $5000 in front of him on the differential)! ;)

Also, before one of us (or both of us) forgets, what kind of brackets did you end up using to attach your hoses to the underbody? Also, I'm thinking about installing separators at intervals down the line to keep the runs clean. Probably something like this (http://www.ebay.com/itm/12AN-12-AN12-24mm-Billet-Fuel-Hose-Black-Hose-Separator-Fittings-Adapter-SEP-12-/300751820714?pt=Race_Car_Parts&hash=item46063497aa&vxp=mtr), or something with a little bit better clampage on the ends like this (http://www.ebay.com/itm/20mm-13-16-SILVER-HOSE-CABLE-SEPARATOR-AN12-AN-12-BRAIDED-TEFLON-PTFE-HOSE-/141021971126?pt=Race_Car_Parts&hash=item20d59082b6). Do you think it's worth the money?

I looked at that...seriously, I considered a host of options for functionality and aesthetics. Sometimes you have to take a simple approach and use what works which is what I decided in the end. I used Jegs rivet nut kit (http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS+Performance+Products/555/80452/10002/-1), extra fasteners from Jegs (http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS+Performance+Products/555/82050/10002/-1), Jegs -6AN Adel clamps (http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS+Performance+Products/555/82035/10002/-1), and Jegs -8AN Adel clamps (http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS+Performance+Products/555/82036/10002/-1).

The idea is to get the fuel lines away from rubbing the curb with any set-up and I hugged the brake lines closely but did not rely on the brake/stock OEM holsters. Room is very limited. I cannot recommend those fuel line components in your links.

philistine
10-20-13, 11:58 PM
Mfer...seems my vacuum manifold is back ordered - phuckin import world gobbled them up!

So here's my hobb's switch (2psi pressure switch) and LED lights (I ordered 2).

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-10-20224758_zps6f84a4c0.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-10-20224758_zps6f84a4c0.jpg.html)

I absolutely love the silicone 1/2" line...used this in previous stuff, such quality!
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-10-20225419_zpsfe3d4c87.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-10-20225419_zpsfe3d4c87.jpg.html)

This is just prep for boost. The LEDs are for indication for the secondary fuel pump and the hose is to replace the OEM brake booster junk and splice for the vacuum manifold.

FuzzyLogic
10-21-13, 01:29 AM
That looks like this product (http://www.racetronix.biz/itemdesc.asp?ic=HPS-2&eq=&Tp=) from Racetronix. Is that correct?

philistine
10-21-13, 07:20 AM
That looks like this product (http://www.racetronix.biz/itemdesc.asp?ic=HPS-2&eq=&Tp=) from Racetronix. Is that correct?

That looks like the same but I didn't buy it from Racetronix.

I got it from LSxTune.com. (http://www.lsxtune.com/shop/product_info.php/products_id/851)

philistine
10-22-13, 11:13 PM
I purchased the LED indicator and switches from Oznium.com (http://www.oznium.com/)

1. LED indicator (http://www.oznium.com/led-indicator-light)
2. LED switch (http://www.oznium.com/anti-vandal-led-switch)

The idea is to have indication of the secondary pump. The LED switch is to override the Hobbs switch. I plan to wire the secondary fuel pump off the "turn-on" power a.k.a. ignition power wire lead as the trigger wire for the relay.

So basically, when the second pump comes on, I get a light. If I want to force the second pump on, I can control that with a push button.

FuzzyLogic
10-23-13, 12:18 AM
I like the idea of having a LED for the second pump, but I'm not sure whether you'll need the button outside of setup diagnostics.

Btw, I just got a whole bunch of miscellaneous parts for the fuel system in the mail:

- Various size hose clamps
- 0.032" lock wire (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005H9Y7FI/ref=oh_details_o02_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
- More Dremel accessories and bits
- Two 1 ft lengths of 5/16" and 3/8" Gates Submersible hose, each
- Aeroquip FCM3661 aluminum vise jaw inserts
- 3/8" and 1/2" x 25' Drossbach split loom
- Aeromotive 15633 gauge (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001O06BGM/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) (not a fan of its looks)
- Grizzly G7062 5" bench vise (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000DD5ZY/ref=oh_details_o07_s02_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) to replace the one I broke doing the Revshift mounts...this thing is huge!

My strategy is to work my way out of the bucket. As it turns out, it's basically impossible to find submersible hose bigger than 3/8" and smaller than 1-1/2". I looked at the return in the bucket and was impressed at how strong that nozzle was, so I was hoping to get a hold of some 5/8" hose. Anyway, more as I know more. Progress has been slow because of work and because I'm multi-tasking on a couple of other CTS-V projects.

philistine
10-23-13, 10:39 AM
I recognize a lot on that list! I believe your background is electrical but here's a few more that I find essential:

1. Raychem (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0013HUBG2/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) Much better than shrink tubing since this has an adhesive layer.
2. Butane soldering iron (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000B61L0G/ref=oh_details_o08_s01_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) & flat tip (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000ILQ0UU/ref=oh_details_o06_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
3. Kester 63/37 solder (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00068IJX6/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)

The LED switch for the secondary fuel pump is to bypass the Hobbs (pressure switch) for any reason that might come up. I find it very comforting that I can push a button and activate full fuel flow. The LED light indication for the secondary pump is an absolute necessity. I'm looking at the fold-out faux ashtray in front of the shifter as a possible place for the switch and indicator.

I think you will be fine with 3/8" submersible. I personally used 5/16" (in tank) which I imagine will create a small pressure zone at the exit to the bucket which is fine. Without any real world data (and won't have any as the weather gets colder) I won't know what the cooling effect will be if any at all. What I mean is directly dumping the return in the bucket vs. dumping to the tank instead. I just want to keep the bucket filled. The other side of the tank should not be affected and should mix with the hotter return gas as it continues to flow in the system with the primary pump hooked up to the jet pump (Venturi effect).

I think it's fairly obvious that doing a return system will create more heat vs. returnless systems. My knowledge is that the PWM varies voltage to those systems for high/low duty on the fuel pump which also cuts down on heat. I don't have a backup plan if my fuel gets too hot - largely because the DW300s are medium size pumps and don't think I'll run into any issues. I noticed when I tested the DW300 pump that it gradually comes to full speed while the Walbro 255 was almost instant - like a buffer to limit torque on the DW300. This was part of the reason for choosing a Hobbs switch with a lower pressure setting.

I'm still waiting on my vacuum manifold to complete the install - this will tell me where to run my wires for the secondary pump trigger and bypass switch etc.

philistine
10-26-13, 09:40 PM
More pics:

Here's some profile pics on the BLOX vacuum manifold. Apparently the color black is back-ordered so I settled for silver.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-10-26184758_zpsc10ebcdf.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-10-26184758_zpsc10ebcdf.jpg.html)
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-10-26184809_zps4694dbcb.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-10-26184809_zps4694dbcb.jpg.html)
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-10-26184821_zps8a141941.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-10-26184821_zps8a141941.jpg.html)

Installed the fittings.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-10-26185720_zps8cf24b3f.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-10-26185720_zps8cf24b3f.jpg.html)
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-10-26185730_zpsfe42098f.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-10-26185730_zpsfe42098f.jpg.html)

Drilled and installed rivet nuts to secure the vacuum manifold.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-10-26185907_zpse49dcb25.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-10-26185907_zpse49dcb25.jpg.html)

Mounted the vacuum manifold and spliced into the brake booster.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-10-26194720_zps073320a2.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-10-26194720_zps073320a2.jpg.html)
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-10-26194727_zps8ca53918.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-10-26194727_zps8ca53918.jpg.html)
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-10-26194739_zps3b6eb805.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-10-26194739_zps3b6eb805.jpg.html)

The pics don't show the depth but with the Hobbs switch, it has tons of clearance and does not interfere with any of the other lines. I plan to use the additional ports when the boost comes. I'll go into the wiring once everything is tested and I'm satisfied with the results.

philistine
10-27-13, 02:12 PM
Here is where I mounted the LED switch (secondary pump override) and LED indication for secondary pump activation:

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-10-27123507_zps3eda7eb3.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-10-27123507_zps3eda7eb3.jpg.html)

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-10-27124949_zps0a95d25b.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-10-27124949_zps0a95d25b.jpg.html)

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-10-27125000_zps3582edf5.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-10-27125000_zps3582edf5.jpg.html)

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-10-27125831_zps9d8716e0.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-10-27125831_zps9d8716e0.jpg.html)

This way I don't sacrifice the use of the factory outlet plug and the ashtray can be used to mount my AFR gauge when the time comes.

***Edit***
Here's a pic showing the 6pin molex connector - wanted to include this important detail.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-10-27184639_zps9fe88a8a.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-10-27184639_zps9fe88a8a.jpg.html)

FuzzyLogic
10-29-13, 06:22 AM
Looking good. Shame that there wasn't an easy way to strap a RTD or IC-based temperature sensor to the surface of the fuel pumps to monitor their temperature. By the way, do you remember what you used to cap the OEM bucket's ports?

I ordered the soldering gear you recommended--I have a standard 115 VAC soldering iron, but liked the idea of a portable one. Also bought an Earl's 10AN, 90 degree bulkhead connector (AT983310ERL (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ear-at983310erl/overview/)) to test clearance with. I believe a 90 degree fitting has a lower profile than using a straight bulkhead fitting + 90 degree adapter. There's no extra nut, as these two pictures suggest:

http://www.davidebsmith.org/cycle/fuelcell/FuelPumpPlateCloseup.jpg

http://www.aaroncake.net/misc/rebuild/306%20-%20Fuel%20Feed%20and%20Return%20Bulkhead%20Fitting s%20On%20Flange.jpg

For the return line fitting at the bucket, I picked up a 3/8" barb to 1/4" NPT 45 degree fitting (http://www.ebay.com/itm/290959913667?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2648) and a 1/4"-18 NPT tap. For the outbound feed lines, the jury's still out. The diameter of the DW300 outlet is just a touch small for 3/8" hose, so I might run 5/16" hose. I'd really like to go 3/8" into 1/2" NPT, and from there to AN-style fittings. But the idea of trying to clamp hose that tight seems like a bad idea.

philistine
10-29-13, 09:28 AM
Looking good. Shame that there wasn't an easy way to strap a RTD or IC-based temperature sensor to the surface of the fuel pumps to monitor their temperature. By the way, do you remember what you used to cap the OEM bucket's ports?

Thanks! I finally got all the under-the-hood wired up. I soldered all the connectors.. even the crimped ones for added strength. To answer your question I used some vacuum caps that I picked up from Advance Auto and used a cheapo plastic welder (http://www.harborfreight.com/plastic-welding-kit-80-watt-iron-67102.html) and plastic welding rods (http://www.harborfreight.com/50-piece-plastic-welding-rods-41602.html) from Harbor Freight. To keep the vacuum caps on there I used Goop (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CCID28/ref=wms_ohs_product?ie=UTF8&psc=1). All that after I cut the tips off. You also have to install the fuel tank lock ring before you install the bulkhead fittings. Don't forget this detail!!!


I ordered the soldering gear you recommended--I have a standard 115 VAC soldering iron, but liked the idea of a portable one. Also bought an Earl's 10AN, 90 degree bulkhead connector (AT983310ERL (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ear-at983310erl/overview/)) to test clearance with. I believe a 90 degree fitting has a lower profile than using a straight bulkhead fitting + 90 degree adapter. There's no extra nut, as these two pictures suggest:

That butane soldering iron is the absolute best portable I have ever used - you will not regret it! Painfully I went through several types of solder in my early days and that link I gave is the easiest stuff to work with and makes a very strong connection. Regarding the Earl's fitting, I like name brand too but Summit will nickel/dime you if/when you start to straggle fittings as you piece it all together. I used your recommendation and purchased almost all my fittings/hoses from ebay (http://stores.ebay.com/Performance-Dynamics-Speed-Shop/10-AN-Bulkhead-Fittings-Nuts-/_i.html?_fsub=1957053016&_sid=106111246&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322) and the shipping was fast and free! I found no difference in quality over Earl's - yet.



For the return line fitting at the bucket, I picked up a 3/8" barb to 1/4" NPT 45 degree fitting (http://www.ebay.com/itm/290959913667?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2648) and a 1/4"-18 NPT tap. For the outbound feed lines, the jury's still out. The diameter of the DW300 outlet is just a touch small for 3/8" hose, so I might run 5/16" hose. I'd really like to go 3/8" into 1/2" NPT, and from there to AN-style fittings. But the idea of trying to clamp hose that tight seems like a bad idea.

I like that 45 degree fitting, it looks like a perfect fit/angle for the return into the bucket when you tap that port. Regarding the hose size for the feeds, you are going to get a pressure drop no matter if it is a 5/16 or 3/8 as it enters the main fuel line of a -10 and will shortly stabilize to a nice laminar flow up to the fuel rails. Either one will be fine but I would install what is convenient. Those corrugated flex lines I used make installing the bucket much easier and it will only fit on 5/16 barb/nipple.

My thoughts are if you use anything other than those flexible corrugated lines for the feeds from the pumps, the bucket will not fit into the tank - it is a damn tight fit! Then again, I haven't seen your design.

philistine
10-29-13, 10:33 PM
I like the bulkhead fittings from fore Innovations. Too bad they only support 2009+ cts-v's.

http://a248.e.akamai.net/origin-cdn.volusion.com/zgjml.jpkzg/v/vspfiles/photos/48-800-2.jpg?1382633838

My fuel module work makes me look like a shoe-maker compared to their product.

FuzzyLogic
10-29-13, 10:40 PM
That's gorgeous.

philistine
11-01-13, 10:12 AM
Ok brake bleeding is the absolute suck on this platform with a hand pump Mityvac (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00265M9SS/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1). I feel like pop-eye as it gave my forearms a workout. I lost a lot of my brake fluid from disengaging the passenger side brake line when I dropped the cradle.

I'll be firing it up this weekend and crossing my fingers all goes well. Gonna set the regulator to 58psi. I won't be driving it until I install the ATI Superdamper. I ordered the pinning kit (http://www.coloradospeed.com/ati-performance-crank-pin-drill-fixture-kit-gm-ls1-p-11557.html), ARP bolt (http://www.coloradospeed.com/arp-harmonic-balancer-bolt-kit-gm-ls1-ls6-ls2-ls3-p-4850.html) and install tool (http://www.coloradospeed.com/hawk-ls-series-harmonic-balancer-installation-tool-gm-ls1-ls6-ls2-ls3-p-10976.html) from Coloradospeed.

Not far down the road I'll be installing the PLX-DM6 gauge AFR combo (http://www.plxdevices.com/product_info.php?id=WDBDSMAFR_DM6G3) (UEGO) in the ashtray location. I have the materials to start on the fab work. This will be in conjunction with the HP Tuners - apparently you have to purchase the HP Tuners Pro edition to enable the wideband for datalogging and integrate it with the rest of the system. All that crap is gonna retail ~$800 so it can wait. The only added sensor I can think to add is the PLX fuel module perhaps EGT down the road. The benefit with the DM-6 gauge is that you only use one gauge for multiple inputs...keeps it clean, no ridiculous pods cluttering the interior.

odthetruth
11-01-13, 11:45 PM
First and foremost... Excellent thread with alot of real good information.

I have a couple of questions. I'm currently having fuel pump issues and I believe you will have some insight on this since you've run thru this before.
My question is... does the Racetronix wiring kit replace the ground that is used on the stock harness, or does it simply add another ground? Or what exactly does the additional ground add-on for the racetronix apply to?

I believe I have a bad ground thats causing intermittent problems with starting the car. Occasionally I lose all fuel pressure, and while the car will crank and crank, it will not start. I'm hoping to troubleshoot and locate the issue. I've already had the tank dropped twice and cut an access door. I may go your route on the gasket, but I should have access to material to cut the door cover myself and possibly use aluminum tape afterwards.

I'm on a budget, but after talking with Fuzzy, I plan on going with the racetronix kit, 1 dw300, and the #11 kit. I plan on picking up a used bucket and building on that. I'll be running the racetronix kit as done on here, underneath the car.

Sorry to interrupt the thread with that. Just figured I'd ask since alot of the parts were relevant here.

FuzzyLogic
11-02-13, 12:18 AM
Depending on which DW300 kit you get, you might not get an electrical pigtail for the pump. When you're ordering the Kit #11, you might want to buy a 12-inch pigtail ($5) as well.

philistine
11-02-13, 12:26 AM
First and foremost... Excellent thread with alot of real good information.
Thanks! I often wondered who was taking interest whether good/bad.


I have a couple of questions. I'm currently having fuel pump issues and I believe you will have some insight on this since you've run thru this before.
My question is... does the Racetronix wiring kit replace the ground that is used on the stock harness, or does it simply add another ground? Or what exactly does the additional ground add-on for the racetronix apply to?

It doesn't replace the ground. It adds an additional ground that you have to provide where you see fit. I drilled and used rivet nuts for my grounds and placed them in a convenient location that has no obstructions and somewhat easy to access. Pics are in this thread...somewhere.


I believe I have a bad ground thats causing intermittent problems with starting the car. Occasionally I lose all fuel pressure, and while the car will crank and crank, it will not start. I'm hoping to troubleshoot and locate the issue. I've already had the tank dropped twice and cut an access door. I may go your route on the gasket, but I should have access to material to cut the door cover myself and possibly use aluminum tape afterwards.
Before you start hacking away your car and buying hotwire kits, take a datalog and find out what your PWM is doing. The Pulse Width Module regulates the fuel pressure with voltage IIRC. If that is functioning properly then you may have a connection issue at the fuel module. Adding the hotwire eliminates the PWM function and the fuel pump will constantly be running at the voltage supplied...good and bad. Good if you are using a BAP and modified fuel system, BAD if you you have neither - this is debatable but the PWM regulates the fuel pressure.


I'm on a budget, but after talking with Fuzzy, I plan on going with the racetronix kit, 1 dw300, and the #11 kit. I plan on picking up a used bucket and building on that. I'll be running the racetronix kit as done on here, underneath the car.
While I don't think that is a bad idea you have to consider what you are gaining/losing. Eliminating the PWM by using a relay has its advantages for FI but hardly any for N/A. The DW300 will operate at a constant voltage using a hotwire but if you DO NOT USE the hotwire the DW300 will be regulated by the PWM. It gets complicated. I would not suggest for anyone to use a hotwire unless they are at high horsepower or FI because you lose the PWM which is really efficient for ~500whp - others can disagree but I'm basing that on stock pump.


Sorry to interrupt the thread with that. Just figured I'd ask since alot of the parts were relevant here.
In summary, I would take a graded approach if you are N/A and add an additional ground to the fuel pump without the hotwire. If FI then definitely add the hotwire and DW300 pump. The DW300 pump I chose because it's going to be running constantly at a constant voltage and needed something "low duty" so it doesn't draw excessive current. This was strictly for running FI with high horsepower in mind with a target of ~850whp (twin pumps of course).

I hope you understand what I'm suggesting...hotwire - eliminates PWM, fuel pump runs constantly. Add a ground (no hotwire) might solve your problem. Accessing those wires is a PITA to add a ground even with a trap door.

FuzzyLogic
11-02-13, 12:43 AM
Philistine, I didn't know that the stock pump was PWMed. My impression was that it was running at rated speed, the whole time.

Also, for what it's worth, there have been a couple of discussions on LS1Tech regarding the stock pump: while some have been able to make 500 RWHP on the stock pump, many others have seen fuel pressure at the rail fall significantly during WOT runs at 430-450 RWHP.

Assuming you're correct about the PWM, I'd argue that any CTS-V making more than 425 RWHP should have a Racetronix hotwire kit and a better pump. When you look at the number of failed fuel systems on this platform, for stock-ish cars, you have to wonder whether there was any real margin in the design of the system. It seems plausible that PWM control was utilized to reduce electrical load on the system, or alternately, GM designed the power distribution system with PWM in mind. Either way, once you make enough power to increase the duty cycle significantly, something in the system is bound to fail.

philistine
11-02-13, 12:55 AM
Philistine, I didn't know that the stock pump was PWMed. My impression was that it was running at rated speed, the whole time.

Also, for what it's worth, there have been a couple of discussions on LS1Tech regarding the stock pump: while some have been able to make 500 RWHP on the stock pump, most others have seen pressure on the rail start to fall during WOT runs at 430-450 RWHP.

Assuming you're correct about the PWM, I'd argue that any CTS-V making more than 425 RWHP should have a Racetronix hotwire kit and better pump. When you look at the number of failed fuel pump connections on this platform, for cars making stock-ish power, you have to wonder whether there was any real margin in the design of the system. It seems plausible that PWM control was utilized to reduce electrical load on the system, or alternately, GM designed the power distribution system with a PWMed pump in mind. Once you make enough power to increase the duty cycle on that pump significantly, something in the system is bound to fail.

Fuzzy, based on my knowledge from tuning done that I have witnessed and inquired, the CTS-V is regulated by PWM - very good regulation system for moderate HP - not sufficient for FI or high horsepower.

I agree that the system was engineered with reducing the electrical load - very common with returnless fuel systems for fuel regulation. This is why using a hotwire in my mind should be used with a complete overhaul of the regulation fuel system - just my thoughts.

253ctsv
11-02-13, 03:59 AM
Just like to say I read your guyses whole posts. Even though I feel like a first grader in an advanced calculus class. And im years from doing it myself (at whitch point ill probably be paying soneone to do it for me) its really cool to see all the shared info...

odthetruth
11-02-13, 07:35 AM
It doesn't replace the ground. It adds an additional ground that you have to provide where you see fit. I drilled and used rivet nuts for my grounds and placed them in a convenient location that has no obstructions and somewhat easy to access. Pics are in this thread...somewhere.


I'll search and hopefully find this.



Before you start hacking away your car and buying hotwire kits, take a datalog and find out what your PWM is doing. The Pulse Width Module regulates the fuel pressure with voltage IIRC. If that is functioning properly then you may have a connection issue at the fuel module. Adding the hotwire eliminates the PWM function and the fuel pump will constantly be running at the voltage supplied...good and bad. Good if you are using a BAP and modified fuel system, BAD if you you have neither - this is debatable but the PWM regulates the fuel pressure.





I hope you understand what I'm suggesting...hotwire - eliminates PWM, fuel pump runs constantly. Add a ground (no hotwire) might solve your problem. Accessing those wires is a PITA to add a ground even with a trap door.

Datalog using a livescan obdii? Seems to be intermittent so might read correctly until it decides to not start again. I'm definitely assuming this is the ground, considering I've changed the fuel pump out already and still have the same issue. How exactly would I add an additional ground to the fuel pump? Splice into the black cable at the connector or near the relay section, and run another cable to chassis with a bolt?



While I don't think that is a bad idea you have to consider what you are gaining/losing. Eliminating the PWM by using a relay has its advantages for FI but hardly any for N/A. The DW300 will operate at a constant voltage using a hotwire but if you DO NOT USE the hotwire the DW300 will be regulated by the PWM. It gets complicated. I would not suggest for anyone to use a hotwire unless they are at high horsepower or FI because you lose the PWM which is really efficient for ~500whp - others can disagree but I'm basing that on stock pump.


I don't plan on doing a twin setup. I think this might be a bit more reliable than what is currently going on with the car. The first time the plug to the pump was removed, it was melted at the ground connector. I have a multimeter, but again, the issue seems intermittent. I am not doing it for performance gains as much as I am for reliability and ease of future access\work. You guys definitely know more on the subject than I do.

philistine
11-02-13, 12:25 PM
Splice into the black cable connector and ground that to the chassis - I don't have a pic of the OEM electrical bulkhead connector.



This pic shows where I mounted my relays. Notice there are 2 grounds - one is slightly hidden. This can give you an idea where to mount another ground.

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-10-10213253_zps05a7d076.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/fuel_system/2013-10-10213253_zps05a7d076.jpg.html)

I don't want to undersell the hotwire kit from Racetronix - it's a great upgrade but just want you to know the PWM function regulating voltage to your fuel pump would be bypassed. If you have replaced the pump with something more robust such as a nice quiet DW300 and somewhat low ampere rated pump then a hotwire kit would be fine (Walbro 255 is good too just noisy). Just want you know what you would be losing in the process of installing a hotwire kit. It will add a much cleaner/stable voltage as well as a ground to the existing system and should lower the resistance on the electrical bulkhead connector.

----------


Philistine, I didn't know that the stock pump was PWMed. My impression was that it was running at rated speed, the whole time.

Also, for what it's worth, there have been a couple of discussions on LS1Tech regarding the stock pump: while some have been able to make 500 RWHP on the stock pump, many others have seen fuel pressure at the rail fall significantly during WOT runs at 430-450 RWHP.

Assuming you're correct about the PWM, I'd argue that any CTS-V making more than 425 RWHP should have a Racetronix hotwire kit and a better pump. When you look at the number of failed fuel systems on this platform, for stock-ish cars, you have to wonder whether there was any real margin in the design of the system. It seems plausible that PWM control was utilized to reduce electrical load on the system, or alternately, GM designed the power distribution system with PWM in mind. Either way, once you make enough power to increase the duty cycle significantly, something in the system is bound to fail.

I re-read this...touche. The electrical system for the pumps and regulation is a weak spot in the design. I believe the PWM can supply up to 16 volts to the fuel pump - I don't have HP tuners to verify it but something stuck in mind from reading. I think if you brought your car to a speedshop they would scratch their heads wondering why you put a hotwire on a N/A car with a returnless system. If you explained the weak design and the electrical bulkhead connector melting on a rising number of V1s then they would understand but it makes it very difficult to yank a nice 11.7 or 12.5 AFR in the upper 450whp range tuning WOT. The PWM serves a BAP and if functioning with a sound electrical system can make over 500whp.

FuzzyLogic
11-02-13, 01:14 PM
On page 5 of the thread, you posted this picture:

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/2013-09-21140008_zpse491a76c.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/2013-09-21140008_zpse491a76c.jpg.html)

At the time, I was thinking, "wow...that's a pretty big mess. I should be able to keep my project space a little cleaner." Buuuuut, the closer I get, the more I'm thinking nope:

http://i1345.photobucket.com/albums/p663/Fuzzylog1c/Fuel%20System/DSC01685_zps50699afd.jpg (http://s1345.photobucket.com/user/Fuzzylog1c/media/Fuel%20System/DSC01685_zps50699afd.jpg.html)

You can see some of my extracurricular activities up there...Hertz ESK 165L.5 speakers, 300 amp AD244 alternator, AMSOIL EAAU6081 filter, and so forth. I'm very pleased with the door, but I haven't cut the final opening yet so I don't know whether it'll be enough to clear -12AN fittings. I also ordered a couple of 15 foot lengths of PTFE hose and a smorgasbord of fittings from FrozenBoost:

http://i1345.photobucket.com/albums/p663/Fuzzylog1c/Misc%20CTS-V/Fuel2_zps2201a403.png (http://s1345.photobucket.com/user/Fuzzylog1c/media/Misc%20CTS-V/Fuel2_zps2201a403.png.html)

The rest of the stuff is coming from eBay, Amazon, and Summit. I still need the regulator, filter, fuel rails, Hobbs switch, vacuum manifold, and an extra pair of Racetronix relays. Since I'll be deriving power from the alternator, I plan on running power along the driver's side rail and the fuel lines along the passenger side rail.

The return line will leave the -10AN return port on the bottom of the Aeromotive 13110 regulator, travel to the back of the car, and enter the bucket using a -10AN bulkhead adapter. A 45 degree, 10mm (3/8" equivalent) barb will connect to 3/8" Gates submersible hose, then there's another 3/8" barb, and into the bucket it goes.

The feed line will start life by traveling toward the engine via two Gates 5/16" submersible hoses, into two 8mm (5/16" equivalent) AN-type barbs (the black barbs on the FrozenBoost screenshot), through a -10AN Russell 650420 female Y-block (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001DSTB6M/ref=ox_sc_act_title_3?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER), and either to a -10AN or -12AN bulkhead adapter. From there, the line becomes -12AN (if it isn't already), goes through the crazy -12AN Aeromotive 12310 filter (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/aei-12310/overview/), and up to a Magnafuel MP-6228 male Y-block (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mrf-mp-6228) where the single -12AN line becomes two -8AN lines. From there, the lines go through the Holley 534-209 fuel rails that you recommended, and into the twin -8AN side ports of the Aeromotive 13110 regulator (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CFQNYK/ref=ox_sc_sfl_image_3?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER). The bottom -10AN fitting is where the return line goes. A -4AN boost reference line will travel back to the vacuum manifold, and there will be an air-filled Aeromotive analog gauge to verify that the regulator is doing its job.

Because the regulator is probably going to end up looking like some kind of freakish Medusa head (http://www.rx8club.com/members/jets3t8-81235-albums-2010-turbo-build-photoset-2466-picture-a-21494.jpg), with all of the vacuum/return/feed lines coming and going, I'm considering mounting the regulator behind the intake manifold. That would require running the twin -8AN feed lines past the the fuel rails (http://image.superchevy.com/f/technical/engines_drivetrain/induction_poweradders/sucp_1105_kenne_bell_supercharged_1000_hp_ls3/32733229/sucp_1105_06%2Bkenne_bell_supercharged_1000_hp_LS3 %2B.jpg), and then have them loop back and enter from the front. Although it might be a PITA to arrive at a solution that looks good, the effort might pay off in spades when routing all of the other lines.

philistine
11-02-13, 03:00 PM
All that looks great! Your parts list is much more comprehensive than mine regarding the bucket and fittings:


http://youtu.be/TAryFIuRxmQ




Each part of this job takes a massive amount of planning. Running the fuel lines takes a bit of work but for the most part just time consuming and not really too difficult. The part of the job that took me the longest was wiring. It really has to be well thought out and thoroughly tested prior to install. I spent at least 3 full days working on the wiring and getting it as clean as possible. I had to heavily modify the Racetronix kit on the length of the wire and some depinning here and there according to my set-up.

Regarding the vacuum manifold, I took a page from my import experience and used the Blox (pics are in this thread) commonly found on boosted Civics and s2ks. LG Motorsports makes one ridiculously overpriced and provides no under-the-hood flare. Just make sure you don't boost reference until you actually get boost - will screw up your fuel maps etc.

I haven't shopped for engines yet but I got plenty of time - taking the idea of a 427 iron block off the table.

Btw, my parts supply is starting to shrink FINALLY as all this stuff is just about finished going on the car.

FuzzyLogic
11-02-13, 03:11 PM
Why did you decide against a 427 LSX?

philistine
11-02-13, 03:22 PM
Why did you decide against a 427 LSX?

I ran a couple things through my speedshop and he doesn't recommend it. He invited me to come down and take a look at some dyno print outs and give me a lesson on much better suited options with aluminum blocks that are much more efficient and lighter weight. I"ll know more when I see what he has to show me.

FuzzyLogic
11-02-13, 03:27 PM
I ran a couple things through my speedshop and he doesn't recommend it. He invited me to come down and take a look at some dyno print outs and give me a lesson on much better suited options with aluminum blocks that are much more efficient and lighter weight. I"ll know more when I see what he has to show me.

I'm interested in what you find out, but I have a hard time believing a 416 CID LS3 will be better than a 427 LSX for a boosted application.

philistine
11-02-13, 08:29 PM
Fuzzy when does your budget allow you to start with the major upgrades? I'm curious if you're going motor first or last. Wondering when that 9" becomes part of your sig.

FuzzyLogic
11-02-13, 09:10 PM
Fuzzy when does your budget allow you to start with the major upgrades? I'm curious if you're going motor first or last. Wondering when that 9" becomes part of your sig.

Well, that depends on how well I can remain patient with the amount of power that I have. If I do things right, the G-Force 9" IRS with a carbon fiber driveshaft is first, a Level VII TR6060 with oil cooler is second, the engine (which could cost as little as $8000 for a 416 CID LS3 or as much as $17000 for a 427 CID RHS) is third, and the 3.3L or 4.0L Whipple is fourth. My budget will allow me to complete the two piece rotor and V2 caliper upgrades, fuel system, and POR-15 underbody coating, this year. If I pinch pennies, I could have either the G-Force 9" IRS or a LS3 by the June timeframe. The one thing that I'm not factoring in is what I might get for my existing engine, transmission, and rear end--complete.

philistine
11-02-13, 10:30 PM
Looks like we'll be shopping for engines/FI about the same time perhaps.

I finally fired it up! I kept it at idle to check for leaks. All the wiring works and the secondary pump LED switch and indicator works like a charm. The regulator is pre-set to 40psi and IIRC these engines are supposed to receive 58psi - please correct me if I'm wrong. BTW, NO LEAKS!

The DW300 have a high pitch sound when they wind up but I have the back seat out and trap door open so it's louder and because I'm listening for it. I guess I can do a follow up post on the wiring and relays since it passed! I can put away my CO2 bottles - you never know.

Time for some beer drinking...

FuzzyLogic
11-02-13, 11:18 PM
Looks like we'll be shopping for engines/FI about the same time perhaps.

I finally fired it up! I kept it at idle to check for leaks. All the wiring works and the secondary pump LED switch and indicator works like a charm. The regulator is pre-set to 40psi and IIRC these engines are supposed to receive 58psi - please correct me if I'm wrong. BTW, NO LEAKS!

The DW300 have a high pitch sound when they wind up but I have the back seat out and trap door open so it's louder and because I'm listening for it. I guess I can do a follow up post on the wiring and relays since it passed! I can put away my CO2 bottles - you never know.

Time for some beer drinking...

58 PSI is correct. With regards to the high pitched sound, once you close the door, the amount of sound should drop significantly. Add a layer of Luxury Liner Pro before you put the seat bottom down (and 1-2 layers of b-Quiet to prevent vibration from the drivetrain coupling into the cabin) and it'll nearly eliminate fuel pump noise. I hear my Walbro 255 LPH more through the sides of the car (through "flanking paths") than through the seat now.

I'm surprised that you didn't take the opportunity to set the regulator to 58 PSI during your test run (when the fuel system was out of the car). That's what I plan on doing... I don't want to risk inducing detonation upon system initialization.

Glad that you're taking time to celebrate. I find it hard to kick back and rest. Congratulations--I wish I could see your reaction when you drive! Oh, and . . . beware of the alignment. You'll probably be fine in dry weather, but add some water or snow on the road, and your crazy rear toe numbers are going to make it hard to control the car.

odthetruth
11-02-13, 11:35 PM
Last time I checked fuel pressure with the engine running perfect, pressure was ~60psi, so 58 sounds dead nuts.
Congrats on a solid setup. With all the pages here, a bit more than beer drinking is what I'd be doing. I'd wake up wearing parts, TBH. LOL

philistine
11-02-13, 11:39 PM
Here is a video of the start-up (un-edited):


http://youtu.be/-1376nSoxMc

FuzzyLogic
11-02-13, 11:44 PM
Any idea why your fuel pressure increased by almost 5 PSI when you had the second pump on? For almost two months, I've been quietly pondering the question, "does adding a second pump in parallel effectively create a leak in the feed line?" Now I'm almost certain I should buy a check valve (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/aei-15107/overview/). From the ad:


"These Aeromotive high-flow one-way check valves are designed to prevent back-flow with minimal pressure drop. [...] They're ideal for use when preventing drainback after the fuel pump is turned off, or when dual pumps are employed and both pumps will not always be running together."
Also, based on the amount of effort it took to shift gears, it looks like you're not done bleeding yet. ;) Also, is your exhaust ceramic coated?

philistine
11-03-13, 12:05 AM
Any idea why your fuel pressure increased by almost 5 PSI when you had the second pump on? For almost two months, I've been silently pondering the question, "does adding a second pump effectively create a leak in the line?" Now I'm definitely thinking I need to buy a check valve (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/aei-15107/overview/). They come in all shapes and sizes. From the ad:


Also, based on the amount of effort it took to shift gears, it looks like you're not done bleeding yet. ;)

The fuel lines can more than handle the additional pressure increase of the secondary pump. I have my suspicions regarding the increase in fuel pressure (some apparent and some more in depth) and I'll do more testing. The regulator has to be set while in operation Fuzzy - unless you have a crystal ball that tells you exactly how many turns on the stem to pre-set it.

I'm definitely not done bleeding...my brakes and my clutch - what a major PITA!

***Edit***
Here's my somewhat drunk tribute:
Thanks for all the applause (and silent ones). I tried something new by showing the step-by-step process of modding, thinking, changing, soliciting advice/instruction and learning along the way. It gives a path for everyone to embellish, copy, or flame. Fuzzy added a tremendous amount of content - special thanks!

FuzzyLogic
11-03-13, 12:25 AM
The fuel lines can more than handle the additional pressure increase of the secondary pump. I have my suspicions regarding the increase in fuel pressure (some apparent and some more in depth) and I'll do more testing. The regulator has to be set while in operation Fuzzy - unless you have a crystal ball that tells you exactly how many turns on the stem to pre-set it.

You may have misunderstood me. I suspect that a significant amount of fuel is leaking backwards through the stationary pump during single-pump operation. Once the secondary pump spins up, that "leak" should be plugged. I fear you may be seeing the actual setpoint of the regulator only when both pumps are online.

Also, I know the regulator has to be set during operation--I thought you tested the fuel system out of the car to check for leaks and set the regulator pressure. IIRC, two pumps in parallel do not increase the available pump head; they increase flowrate. So unless your regulator valve is stuck, or the feed and return lines are obstructed/too small, bringing extra parallel pumps online will not significantly affect the pressure measured at any point in the system.

philistine
11-03-13, 12:42 AM
Ahh, I see your point. That is something I didn't expect and sounds very reasonable. I think it is leaking backwards...hmm. I also have a very small restricted return into the bucket which is 5/16 ID. I wanted full return into the bucket to keep it covered...that comes with a loss of potential flow - another hmm. That would require a re-design in the bucket which I'm not about to revisit unless I have to. It's a delta of 5psi which isn't bad but good catch though!

I'm assuming the regulator is robust and gives proper regulation. When the second pump triggers, the increase can be accounted for in the fuel maps when FI comes.

FuzzyLogic
11-03-13, 01:05 AM
Ahh, I see your point. That is something I didn't expect and sounds very reasonable. I think it is leaking backwards...hmm. That would require a re-design in the bucket which I'm not about to revisit unless I have to. It's a delta of 5psi which isn't bad but good catch though!

I'm assuming the regulator is robust and gives proper regulation. When the second pump triggers, the increase can be accounted for in the fuel maps when FI comes.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but that sounds like wishful thinking. That 5 PSI delta is going to scale up by about 50% when you try to raise the point of regulation to 60 PSI. How can you accurately tune your car when your fuel pressure is bounces by 7-8 PSI with a tap of the gas pedal?

Fortunately, I don't think you'll have to change a whole lot. Consider the following:


Replace your triple Y-block with a MagnaFuel MP-6160 (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mrf-mp-6160/overview/), which has one -8AN outlet and two -6AN inlets.

Replace your 5/16" brass barb fittings with two FrozenBoost 8mm to -6AN barbs. (http://www.anfittingsdirect.com/product_info.php?cPath=305&products_id=935&osCsid=739d1669b23e43e9a543368d0eea1364)

Interpose an Aeromotive 15106 -6AN one-way check valve (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/aei-15106/overview/) between one or both of those -6AN barbs and the MagnaFuel Y-block.

Done! And if you installed two check valves, you won't ever have to crank the engine for an extra second or two each morning/night because your fuel system depressurized itself.


***Edit***
Here's my somewhat drunk tribute:
Thanks for all the applause (and silent ones). I tried something new by showing the step-by-step process of modding, thinking, changing, soliciting advice/instruction and learning along the way. It gives a path for everyone to embellish, copy, or flame. Fuzzy added a tremendous amount of content - special thanks!

I don't think this thread is done. 10,000 views and counting. That's a lot of people reading, learning, and laughing at our goofs. Or just a lot of me refreshing the page, hoping that someone responded to my latest post. ;) In the end, it might be useful to funnel what we learned, including a good parts list, into a new thread. Maybe it'll even get stickied. Then, next year, one of us can do a second generation thread regarding an engine swap with an even more outrageous name...anybody (http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1297347/thumbs/o-HAMSTER-CORN-facebook.jpg)?

philistine
11-03-13, 01:22 AM
Please don't take this the wrong way, but that sounds like wishful thinking. That 5 PSI delta is going to scale up by about 50% when you try to raise the point of regulation to 60 PSI. How can you accurately tune your car when your fuel pressure is bounces by 7-8 PSI with a tap of the gas pedal?

Fortunately, I don't think you'll have to change a whole lot. Consider the following:


Replace your triple Y-block with a MagnaFuel MP-6160 (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mrf-mp-6160/overview/), which has one -8AN outlet and two -6AN inlets.

Replace your 5/16" brass barb fittings with two FrozenBoost 8mm to -6AN barbs. (http://www.anfittingsdirect.com/product_info.php?cPath=305&products_id=935&osCsid=739d1669b23e43e9a543368d0eea1364)

Interpose an Aeromotive 15106 -6AN one-way check valve (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/aei-15106/overview/) between one or both of those -6AN barbs and the MagnaFuel Y-block.

Done! And if you installed two check valves, you won't ever have to crank the engine for an extra second or two each morning/night because your fuel system depressurized itself.

I have the luxury of testing the secondary pump with a switch - the delta is 3-5 psi when the primary is set at 58psi. So basically, push the switch for the secondary pump and you have ~62 psi.

I have it set for the proper fuel pressure of 58psi.



I don't think this thread is done. 10,000 views and counting. That's a lot of people reading, learning, and laughing at our goofs. Or just a lot of me refreshing the page, hoping that someone responded to my latest post. ;) In the end, it might be useful to funnel what we learned, including a good parts list, into a new thread. Maybe it'll even get stickied. Then, next year, one of us can do a second generation thread regarding an engine swap with an even more outrageous name...anybody (http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1297347/thumbs/o-HAMSTER-CORN-facebook.jpg)?

Yeah it's still not done...consider my remarks a tribute to accomplishing a milestone. This would be a crazy sticky of intimidating long dialogue. Interesting enough a speedshop in PA contacted me regarding a parts list regarding the Hobbs switch, wiring and other associated materials - they were running a triple pumper from a Dodge 'something'. I think more than the Cadillac community is paying attention to this thread.

I think when I'm ready for FI, I'll start a thread called 'Here's comes the boost' or something corny. The 'pig in slop' was taken from my early Navy days in engineering.

FuzzyLogic
11-03-13, 01:36 AM
I have the luxury of testing the secondary pump with a switch - the delta is 3-5 psi when the primary is set at 58psi. So basically, push the switch for the secondary pump and you have ~62 psi.

I have it set for the proper fuel pressure of 58psi.

Well, at least you'll be cooling down the cylinder walls instead of running lean. It's better to be safe than KA-BOOM!

By the way, I was looking for a dramatic/funny picture of car exploding, and then I found this exploded Formula 1 exhibit:

http://stockarch.com/files/12/01/expanded_formula_one_car.jpg

Cool!

philistine
11-03-13, 01:57 AM
Well, at least you'll be cooling down the cylinder walls instead of running lean. It's better to be safe than KA-BOOM!

By the way, I was looking for a dramatic/funny picture of car exploding, and then I found this exploded Formula 1 exhibit:

http://stockarch.com/files/12/01/expanded_formula_one_car.jpg

Cool!

I had CO2 cylinders on standby just in case this happened - I was sweating bullets turning the ignition.

FuzzyLogic
11-03-13, 12:38 PM
I had CO2 cylinders on standby just in case this happened - I was sweating bullets turning the ignition.

Do you have an automotive fire extinguisher, and if so, what do you use? I'm in the market for something lightweight and mountable.

philistine
11-03-13, 12:57 PM
No, I borrowed some from the local fire department - it's right around the corner where I live. With all the crap I do in my garage I should invest and purchase a couple.

Unrelated, figured I'd share another recommendation with what's strapped to my noggin when I wrench on my cars:
headlamp (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008H5GZGS/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1) - the battery life lasts forever and it's very light weight and comfortable. I've gone through a few others but this is the keeper.

BTW, any recommendations on a good bleeder, the Mityvac hand pump was useless against the wife's foot.

FuzzyLogic
11-03-13, 01:35 PM
No, I borrowed some from the local fire department - it's right around the corner where I live. With all the crap I do in my garage I should invest and purchase a couple.

Unrelated, figured I'd share another recommendation with what's strapped to my noggin when I wrench on my cars:
headlamp (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008H5GZGS/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1) - the battery life lasts forever and it's very light weight and comfortable. I've gone through a few others but this is the keeper.

BTW, any recommendations on a good bleeder, the Mityvac hand pump was useless against the wife's foot.

When it comes to headlamps, I recommend the LED Lenser H14R (http://www.amazon.com/Led-Lenser-H14R-Flashlight-Black/dp/B006GU99QO). It's somewhat expensive (the asking price is more reasonable now than it was 6 months ago), but worth every single penny. Extremely bright, power efficient, rechargeable, and comfortable. Has a bunch of illumination modes, but I use the intensity ramp feature exclusively. Click the button once to turn it on, then partially depress and hold it. It'll instantly drop to the lowest light setting, then gradually ramp up to maximum brightness. When it hits the light intensity that you want, release the button and it'll stay there.

I threw away my Mity Vac last year. As everyone says, the Motive Power Bleeder is a much better bleeder. FWIW, a lot of us use the Motive Power Bleeder 0108 (http://www.amazon.com/Motive-Products-Power-Bleeder-trucks/dp/B000Q6QWSC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1383503475&sr=8-1&keywords=motive+0108), which includes the P/N 1108 adapter. I go a step further and have a Earl's 280040 speed bleeder (http://www.amazon.com/Earls-280040-Metric-Bleeder-Screws/dp/B000CN9DW6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1383503546&sr=8-1&keywords=earl%27s+bleeder) (check valve) on my clutch remote line, and Edelbrock/Russell 639560 speed bleeders (http://www.amazon.com/Edelbrock-Russell-639560-Speed-Bleeder/dp/B000CPCOAM) on all of my brake calipers. They're awesome--making it clean and practical to bleed the car with only one person.

You might also want to consider buying a Genesis Bleeder bottle (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000W7F2GI/ref=oh_details_o05_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1). I know they're expensive, but they're large (750 mL) and well-made. The one I linked you to has a stainless steel cable that lets you hang the bottle off a wheel stud. There's also an alternate version (http://www.amazon.com/Genesis-Magnet-Bleeder-Bottle/dp/B000W7K588/ref=sr_1_2?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1383503909&sr=1-2&keywords=genesis+bleeder) that has a magnet instead.

If you've ever let your brake system go dry, you'll need to bench bleed the master cylinder (you'll also have to take your car into GM to have them do a Tech 2 ABS solenoid purge, but that's another story). Don't do it on the bench--it's not as fast, clean, or as effective as doing it on the car, using the brake pedal, with this Napa bench bleeder kit (http://www.amazon.com/Brake-Master-Cylinder-Bench-Bleeder/dp/B00CVGQ6TA/ref=sr_1_44?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1383504510&sr=1-44&keywords=brake+bleed). Ignore the Amazon reviews--in this case, they're irrelevant. The kit works perfectly on our car.

Lastly, check out this fluid moisture sensor tool (http://www.amazon.com/Brake-Fluid-Tester/dp/B005HVG4GQ/ref=pd_sim_auto_5). This is the only tool I haven't used--it's in my Amazon cart right now. Might eliminate wondering whether it's about time to bleed the clutch/brakes again. Or it might be a waste of $25. I don't know.

FuzzyLogic
11-03-13, 03:17 PM
I just looked up one of PISNUOFF's old posts, and he's apparently using the MVP-0250 (http://www.amazon.com/Motive-Products-250-System-Bleeder/dp/B00CJ5E1GS/ref=sr_1_4?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1383509789&sr=1-4&keywords=motive+bleeder) (Summit link (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MVP-0250/)). It's a little more expensive, but it looks like it has more adapters. In case there's any doubt, here's the Motive application guide:

http://www.motiveproducts.com/files/Download/Application%20Guide0.htm

philistine
11-03-13, 03:56 PM
I just looked up one of PISNUOFF's old posts, and he's apparently using the MVP-0250 (http://www.amazon.com/Motive-Products-250-System-Bleeder/dp/B00CJ5E1GS/ref=sr_1_4?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1383509789&sr=1-4&keywords=motive+bleeder) (Summit link (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MVP-0250/)). It's a little more expensive, but it looks like it has more adapters. In case there's any doubt, here's the Motive application guide:

http://www.motiveproducts.com/files/Download/Application%20Guide0.htm

Thanks, I pulled the trigger on the one you linked from Amazon - I have a ton of adapters. I also purchased the bleed bottle, the one I currently use is a growler (beer bottle) so I could use something that won't break.

I'm waiting on my ATI pinning kit so I have some time to burn waiting for the new bleeder to arrive. I have always wrestled with my SW 3" pipes but now with the CS 8.8, it's definitely gonna have to go to a fab shop for a perfect fitment - it's in there but I like 'show quality'. I'm not really in love with it either and considering to change it up a bit but twin turbos are still on the table - for now.

There are 2 shops in my area that are capable of producing a twin turbo kit - one primarily does imports, the other specializes in domestic GM cars. I can get a top quality twin turbo kit worthy of the front cover a major magazine for ~$10k. I haven't seen anything on the forums worthy of my wallet since an install would require some level of tech-support. The backup is a ProCharger but everything in my area is trending turbo. This same speedshop (GM shop) is in the middle of installing a rear mounted turbo in another buddy of mine and I want to see their quality and dyno sheets up close and personal - ehh, anyways I'm still 6 months out from this venture.

FuzzyLogic
11-03-13, 05:08 PM
By the way, I don't like the way the Motive fitting fits over the clutch reservoir. It fits great over the brake master (I can do 12 PSI no problem), but I can only get 6 PSI before the fitting leaks on the clutch. If someone has a threaded attachment that works better, I'd appreciate your advice. It might be worth buying an extra cap and installing a fitting into it. I don't know.

Looking at the Stainless Works stuff...did they copy B&B? Both are 304 stainless steel... I might call them and ask them what the thickness is.

philistine
11-03-13, 07:44 PM
By the way, I don't like the way the Motive fitting fits over the clutch reservoir. It fits great over the brake master (I can do 12 PSI no problem), but I can only get 6 PSI before the fitting leaks on the clutch. If someone has a threaded attachment that works better, I'd appreciate your advice. It might be worth buying an extra cap and installing a fitting into it. I don't know.

Looking at the Stainless Works stuff...did they copy B&B? Both are 304 stainless steel... I might call them and ask them what the thickness is.

Regarding the SW exhaust I give it 7/10 fitment and 8/10 on sound - I say that but my ears are very picky and I expect Corsa quality fitment (perfect). DIY exhaust systems are sort of a pitfall. Even with the best fitment I had on previous cars, an exhaust expert was always able to find room for improvement. I still think nothing sounds better than a Bassani exhaust...something you don't find in a Cadillac forum. SW effed up one of my pipes but fixed it so their customer support is pretty strong 10/10 on that.

FuzzyLogic
11-03-13, 08:10 PM
I think that SW has the straightest header tubes of any manufacturer--it's impressive. But I don't like their mufflers or exhaust tips. I'm considering doing SW headers and a catted B&B exhaust. I really like the sound and look of the B&B. I bought and wrapped my Kooks/Magnaflow back when I thought I would only be doing a few minor modifications to this car. $1500 all told was a good price for an entry-level system, but now it's time to upgrade.

philistine
11-03-13, 08:18 PM
I think that SW has the straightest header tubes of any manufacturer--it's impressive. But I don't like their mufflers or exhaust tips. I'm considering doing SW headers and a catted B&B exhaust. I really like the sound and look of the B&B. I bought and wrapped my Kooks/Magnaflow back when I thought I would only be doing a few minor modifications to this car. $1500 all told was a good price for an entry-level system, but now it's time to upgrade.

Keep in mind the 9" will require custom work with anything that is not stock. B&B is a quality exhaust based on feedback. They were my first choice but SW was much cheaper.

FuzzyLogic
11-03-13, 08:27 PM
Keep in mind the 9" will require custom work with anything that is not stock. B&B is a quality exhaust based on feedback. They were my first choice but SW was much cheaper.

Where specifically (I know it's kind of an unfair question--I'm hoping that you overcame a similar issue with the 8.8")? Are the axles too low? The G-Force page indicates that no cutting or welding is required, but a couple of weeks ago, someone was selling a G-Force kit and offered to include his modified subframe as part of the sale. I wrote to G-Force, but they never responded. I'll probably try calling them next year.

Based on the pricing I'm seeing, it looks like the price difference is negligible between SW and B&B. At this point, I'm simply looking for the best product--money is not a concern. Since the SW headers look straighter, I assume that it's better. Maybe that's not true, though. I don't know.

philistine
11-03-13, 08:47 PM
You're going FI so debating pennies on the dollar of HP of headers for N/A is a moot point. I like the SW headers - that's where it ends. There is no love with the fabrication of their exhaust based on my experience - think big business vs. small custom perfectionist. I felt like I was checking out of Walmart - that's just me. I love cars and strive for perfection so it was 'different'. I purchased the SW stuff the same time with the KW V3's and I got massive customer support and the same with other purchases from KW on my other cars.

My issues with 3" pipes come where it wraps around the differential. I like the exhaust to hug the frame as much as possible (w/o touching of course) and the bend around the driver's side is too tight for my taste. I can't fix that with my garage tools. I also want my exhausts to be positioned where they are level and they are bent to accommodate the 8.8 differential - I'm being picky.

SevillianSTS
11-03-13, 09:29 PM
By the way, I don't like the way the Motive fitting fits over the clutch reservoir. It fits great over the brake master (I can do 12 PSI no problem), but I can only get 6 PSI before the fitting leaks on the clutch. If someone has a threaded attachment that works better, I'd appreciate your advice. It might be worth buying an extra cap and installing a fitting into it. I don't know.

You need the 1100 European adapter for the clutch reservoir. I tried putting the 1108 on it; and it almost fit, but then one of the 3 tabs broke off... cost me another $20 to replace.

FuzzyLogic
11-03-13, 09:36 PM
You need the 1100 European adapter for the clutch reservoir. I tried putting the 1108 on it; and it almost fit, but then one of the 3 tabs broke off... cost me another $20 to replace.

Aaaaand ordered! Thanks for the tip.

philistine
11-03-13, 09:57 PM
link...this one?:

http://www.amazon.com/Motive-Products-1100-Cylinder-Adapter/dp/B000Q6UHQK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1383534229&sr=8-1&keywords=motive+1100+European+adapter

SevillianSTS
11-03-13, 10:06 PM
Aaaaand ordered! Thanks for the tip.

Glad I could spend some of your money; guess that's payback for those bright-ass reverse lights you made me buy, LOL
Everybody does say, damn those are bright now :cool:

----------

This is the bleeder, which will come with the adapter for the brakes:

http://motiveproducts.3dcartstores.com/0108-GM-Bleeder-Kit-_p_121.html (http://motiveproducts.3dcartstores.com/0108-GM-Bleeder-Kit-_p_121.html)



Then get this adapter for the clutch:

http://motiveproducts.3dcartstores.com/1100-European-Adapter_p_114.html

FuzzyLogic
11-03-13, 10:08 PM
link...this one?:

http://www.amazon.com/Motive-Products-1100-Cylinder-Adapter/dp/B000Q6UHQK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1383534229&sr=8-1&keywords=motive+1100+European+adapter

You got it!

philistine
11-03-13, 10:13 PM
Excellent! thanks to you both! This thread has me filling my Amazon cart over and over with goodies with the sharing of parts/tools etc. Retail therapy at its finest!

FuzzyLogic
11-03-13, 10:23 PM
Glad I could spend some of your money; guess that's payback for those bright-ass reverse lights you made me buy, LOL
Everybody does say, damn those are bright now

The best part is that you can disable your reverse lockout, shift into reverse, and make the a--hole on the highway crap his seat after he/she decides to tailgate you at 70 mph...

philistine
11-03-13, 10:28 PM
I'm blind at night and have tinted windows, so can you give a link to the reverse tail lights?

FuzzyLogic
11-03-13, 10:36 PM
I'm blind at night and have tinted windows, so can you give a link to the reverse tail lights?

Here's the original thread:

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/2004-2007-cadillac-cts-v-appearance/342729-psa-10-ridiculously-bright-reverse-leds.html

However there are now potentially brighter (or at least higher wattage) 3157s. Haven't tried these yet, but will when my 60W turn signal 3157s burn out:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/321190667803

SevillianSTS
11-03-13, 10:39 PM
Look at that fuzzy, now we're spending more of philistines money :cool:


So you are able to shift to Reverse at 70 without messing up syncros or anything else ? Obviously keeping the clutch in.

They don't fit perfectly, you gotta push them in real tight; I used a touch of jb weld in 2 spots on each to make sure it doesn't vibrate out.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/121136236661?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2648


http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/2004-2007-cadillac-cts-v-appearance/342729-psa-10-ridiculously-bright-reverse-leds.html (http://www.ebay.com/itm/121136236661?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2648)

FuzzyLogic
11-03-13, 10:46 PM
Yeah, the sides of the connector tab have a little artistic curve that interferes with the socket. However, it will click into place. I've been running them since the date on that thread without any problems.

SevillianSTS
11-03-13, 10:52 PM
You know... while we're talking about reverse lights. As much as I hate walmart, I still go there every once in a while.
The V always parks in the back of the lot, but I was thinking it'd be fun to put a switch on the reverse lights of my Blazer and then anytime I get a front row spot, turn the lights on after I get out; maybe even put a camera in the back window. See how many people sit and wait until they get pissed and leave.

FuzzyLogic
11-03-13, 11:01 PM
If you do that, you'd better remember to buy an extra car battery while you're in there. ;)

philistine
11-05-13, 08:24 PM
Philistine, I didn't know that the stock pump was PWMed. My impression was that it was running at rated speed, the whole time.

Also, for what it's worth, there have been a couple of discussions on LS1Tech regarding the stock pump: while some have been able to make 500 RWHP on the stock pump, many others have seen fuel pressure at the rail fall significantly during WOT runs at 430-450 RWHP.

Assuming you're correct about the PWM, I'd argue that any CTS-V making more than 425 RWHP should have a Racetronix hotwire kit and a better pump. When you look at the number of failed fuel systems on this platform, for stock-ish cars, you have to wonder whether there was any real margin in the design of the system. It seems plausible that PWM control was utilized to reduce electrical load on the system, or alternately, GM designed the power distribution system with PWM in mind. Either way, once you make enough power to increase the duty cycle significantly, something in the system is bound to fail.

From LS1Tech (http://ls1tech.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v/1686303-new-v1-bolt-twin-turbo-kit-4.html#post17802502)

No, there is no PWM. This was started on the 2009+ V2's. All V1's have a simple on/off command and the regulation is done by the regulator attached to the fuel pump module.

My assumption that the V1s fuel was controlled by PWM were wrong apparently. I guess the feedback I got from a local tuner was referencing the V2s since those are more common on the dyno.

Fuzzy, your advice is dead-on then recommending a Racetronix kit - it provides another ground and much better voltage. Putting my foot in my mouth on that one. Thanks for questing it!

FuzzyLogic
11-05-13, 08:25 PM
Thanks for questing it!

Thanks for closing the loop! I wouldn't have known otherwise!

odthetruth
11-05-13, 10:15 PM
From LS1Tech (http://ls1tech.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v/1686303-new-v1-bolt-twin-turbo-kit-4.html#post17802502)


My assumption that the V1s fuel was controlled by PWM were wrong apparently. I guess the feedback I got from a local tuner was referencing the V2s since those are more common on the dyno.

Fuzzy, your advice is dead-on then recommending a Racetronix kit - it provides another ground and much better voltage. Putting my foot in my mouth on that one. Thanks for questing it!

Thanks for getting the solid answer on this. I'm feeling real confident now with my upgrade.
http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb454/odthetruthv/IMG_20131105_185235_zpsffd3f784.jpg (http://s1206.photobucket.com/user/odthetruthv/media/IMG_20131105_185235_zpsffd3f784.jpg.html)

philistine
11-05-13, 10:39 PM
Oh it just furthered my justification replacing my fuel system. I shudder at those pics...so many options. Sorry to put ideas in your head but I would also turn my focus to the in-tank regulator - since we know there is no PWM regulating the voltage of the fuel pumps. I would hesitate slapping it back together if it wasn't investigated.

sssnake
11-06-13, 11:04 AM
From LS1Tech (http://ls1tech.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v/1686303-new-v1-bolt-twin-turbo-kit-4.html#post17802502)

My assumption that the V1s fuel was controlled by PWM were wrong apparently. I guess the feedback I got from a local tuner was referencing the V2s since those are more common on the dyno.

Fuzzy, your advice is dead-on then recommending a Racetronix kit - it provides another ground and much better voltage. Putting my foot in my mouth on that one. Thanks for questing it!

Damn it! I just read thru 6 pages of this thread to see if you discovered that the V1s were non PWM. Got to the last page and found this. :) I will be digging into fueling again this weekend. My fuel trims are all over the place and I need to figure out why.

philistine
11-06-13, 11:45 PM
Also, based on the amount of effort it took to shift gears, it looks like you're not done bleeding yet. ;) Also, is your exhaust ceramic coated?

Here's the reference video (skip to 0.28 sec):

http://youtu.be/-1376nSoxMc

Hmm, I used the Motive bleeder on there and cycled it through 3-4 times with a couple quarts - the shifter is still notchy and 6th is very difficult. I did those shifter bandaids including the brass isolator cup - had no issues.

It's a brand new Katech LS9x clutch with the OEM LS6 slave (instructions say to keep the OEM slave, no shims etc). I haven't had it on the road yet to do a "1st gear clutch in" test to see if it moves.

Just wondering if anyone experienced anything similar with a twin disc clutch or the identical clutch.

FuzzyLogic
11-06-13, 11:51 PM
You're going to need to get rid of that OEM slave. Screw those instructions. People don't know how long our bell housing is. Hard shifting at idle is a sure sign that your slave isn't long enough or shimmed properly to completely disengage the clutch. You'll never go wrong with a PowerTorque CS2529 (LS7 slave).

In related news, I went against my Mark 0 Eyeball and increased the torque on my McLeod RXT pressure plate to the full rated 35 ft-lbs. That was a mistake. I'm going to have to yank the transmission for the 12th time since I bought the car, measure (which I should've done in the first place), and torque/shim to establish the correct spacing. I'm thinking 29 ft-lbs and 0.055" shim, but my measurements will tell the whole story.

philistine
11-07-13, 12:07 AM
Yeah, you're going to need to get rid of that OEM slave. Burn those instructions. People don't know how long our bell housing is. Hard shifting at idle is a sure sign that your slave isn't long enough or shimmed properly to completely disengage the clutch. You'll never go wrong with a PowerTorque CS2529 (LS7 slave).

In related news, I went against my Mark 0 Eyeball and increased the torque on my McLeod RXT pressure plate to the full rated 35 ft-lbs. That was a mistake. I'm going to have to yank the transmission for the 12th time since I bought the car, measure (which I should've done in the first place), and torque/shim to establish the correct spacing.

The Katech instructions specified 52 [lb-ft] and I did exactly that. That sucks, really sucks...a lot. Do you have the spacing numbers handy for the proper distance? I've never measured it. I guess time to get a set of Tick shims and find a new LS6 slave.

FuzzyLogic
11-07-13, 01:17 AM
The Katech instructions specified 52 [lb-ft] and I did exactly that. That sucks, really sucks...a lot. Do you have the spacing numbers handy for the proper distance? I've never measured it. I guess time to get a set of Tick shims and find a new LS6 slave.

I recommend the PowerTorque CS2529 (http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/PTQ5/CS2529/01352.oap?year=2007&make=Chevrolet&model=Corvette&vi=1433663&ck=Search_01352_1433663_-1&pt=01352&ppt=C0015). I have the Tick shim three-pack, but I've never needed it. You might want to hold off on that until you get a better slave and measure. Unless you have $40 to burn on top of the $130 the slave will cost you.

Spacing and pressure plate torque specs are vehicle and clutch combination dependent. The only kind of person that can answer your question would be a CTS-V1 owner with the same clutch as you. Since there aren't a lot of those, you'll probably have to measure. The thousand mile high perspective is that when you install your transmission, you want your pressure plate fingers to compress the throw out bearing to 99.9% of its full travel with your foot off the pedal. Any more than that, and you'll never be able to fully engage the clutch (the fingers will be trapped by the slave). Any less than that, and you might not have enough forward throw on the slave to depress the pressure plate fingers enough to fully disengage the clutch.

As you torque the pressure plate, you'll notice that the fingers slowly retract inward. If you measure and find that you need just a little more reach on the fingers, you can reduce the amount of torque on the pressure plate to extend the fingers a bit. Or you can drop a shim behind the slave. I prefer the former, because shims tend to shift/settle/compress over time, and you can't dial in a shim as perfectly as you can with the pressure plate torque. I know that you would never do this, but some people over-shim to compensate for their terrible bleeding abilities, and end up running their clutch in a partially engaged configuration all the time where it's constantly slipping and burning up inside the bellhousing.

Here's the popular LS1Tech thread explaining how to correctly measure your pressure plate and throw-out bearing distances:

http://ls1tech.com/forums/manual-transmission/1030815-does-your-clutch-setup-need-shim.html

----------

By the way, GulfM3 over on LS1Tech has been asking me questions about the fuel system build. In particular, he wants to know what we think the chances are of sucking the bucket dry or causing cavitation. Frankly, I don't understand how the intake mechanism of the bucket works (I've been doing all kinds of embarrassing things like blowing into the various ports to figure out where the air is going), so I can't answer his question. ;)

If I understand your bucket build, you have the primary pump connected to the bucket feed mechanism, and the second pump connected directly to your Y-block. Given the fact that the bucket is like a piece of Swiss cheese (it probably has a hard time keeping the pumps wet) and you're drawing one pump's worth of fuel into the bucket while pushing two out, it seems plausible that dual-pump operation will eventually suck the bucket dry. What do you think?

That aside, one thing that I like about this build is the greatly improved fuel return / cooling system. If I'm deducing the function of the OEM regulator correctly, the unit has a tiny, always-open port (pictured below) that admits a small stream of fuel into the bucket.

http://i1345.photobucket.com/albums/p663/Fuzzylog1c/Fuel%20System/DSC01702_zpsb9d65a24.jpg (http://s1345.photobucket.com/user/Fuzzylog1c/media/Fuel%20System/DSC01702_zpsb9d65a24.jpg.html)

During a positive pressure transient (where you let your foot off the gas), the port on the back of the regulator opens (pictured below) and dumps excess fuel back into the fuel tank. Unfortunately, that operation robs the fuel pump of much-needed cooling flow that (IMHO) it should have received.

http://i1345.photobucket.com/albums/p663/Fuzzylog1c/Fuel%20System/DSC01689_zpsb7ec3e43.jpg (http://s1345.photobucket.com/user/Fuzzylog1c/media/Fuel%20System/DSC01689_zpsb7ec3e43.jpg.html)

If you return to the first picture, compare the inner diameter of the 3/8" return line to the pinhole-sized port on the stock system. Not only does this fuel system have a lot less flow restriction, it provides massively better cooling by sending 100% of the unneeded fuel back into the bucket, instead of just a small trickle.

Also, my -10AN Russell Y-block arrived. It's . . . large.

http://i1345.photobucket.com/albums/p663/Fuzzylog1c/Fuel%20System/DSC01707_zps256310b9.jpg (http://s1345.photobucket.com/user/Fuzzylog1c/media/Fuel%20System/DSC01707_zps256310b9.jpg.html)

http://i1345.photobucket.com/albums/p663/Fuzzylog1c/Fuel%20System/DSC01706_zps22409233.jpg (http://s1345.photobucket.com/user/Fuzzylog1c/media/Fuel%20System/DSC01706_zps22409233.jpg.html)

liqidvenom
11-07-13, 08:35 AM
I would say that i ran my LS7 slave and twin disk, needed no spacer and followed the tq instructions listed with the product. Nearly 50k and years of very hard abuse it is still taking it with no worries.

If i have to pull the trans 12 times i would have stopped putting the same old t56 back in.

FuzzyLogic
11-07-13, 09:42 AM
If i have to pull the trans 12 times i would have stopped putting the same old t56 back in.

It wasn't the fault of the transmission or the clutch. It was the dude turning the wrenches that needed his head examined. ;)

The first 6 times were to figure out what forum members and the shops I called around the country couldn't tell me--that pressure plate torque specs are application specific. Back then, it was extreme frustration that lead me to torque down one bolt more than the others (instead of following the star pattern)--and that's when I saw some of the fingers sticking out further than the others. Eureka!

By the way, a whole bunch of the other -10AN fittings came in. My bucket is going to be more cramped than Philistine's . . . hoo boy.

DMM
11-07-13, 10:26 AM
Everything Fuzzy posted has given me an idea based on my Suburbans dual tank fuel system. I'll get more in depth when I get home and am able to more thoroughly investigate the idea.

philistine
11-07-13, 10:35 AM
I recommend the PowerTorque CS2529 (http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/PTQ5/CS2529/01352.oap?year=2007&make=Chevrolet&model=Corvette&vi=1433663&ck=Search_01352_1433663_-1&pt=01352&ppt=C0015). I have the Tick shim three-pack, but I've never needed it. You might want to hold off on that until you get a better slave and measure. Unless you have $40 to burn on top of the $130 the slave will cost you.

Found a link regarding my clutch engagement: Link (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/2004-2007-cadillac-cts-v-performance/216680-katech-ls9-clutch-first-impression-15.html) I guess I could order a new slave but want to give it a test drive first to be sure. I think the one you linked is for a C6 Vette and the stroke on it is too much for this twin clutch beast. Thanks for the link with the measurements, definitely going to measure it and get it right if/when I drop the transmission. Even though I bled and bled, the clutch still feels a little soft - idk. Just to be sure I wasn't over-thinking it, asked the wife to come down and she said the same thing - feels like almost no resistance.

I used the Motive bleeder, bottle, and associated attachments and cycled over and over at 20psi. I wonder if there is a massive air bubble that I can't get out.

----------


By the way, GulfM3 over on LS1Tech has been asking me questions about the fuel system build. In particular, he wants to know what we think the chances are of sucking the bucket dry or causing cavitation.

1)The primary pump takes suction from the bucket. The discharge from the primary pump goes into a jet pump and creates a Venturi effect. The result of the Venturi effect causes suction on the line joining the jet pump which is connected to the other side of the tank and takes suction there. At this point you have suction from the bucket, passenger side, and suction from the driver side - consider the jet pump a Y-connector. From the jet pump, you have a single exit that joins to the ADDED manifold block in an available discharge port.

2) The secondary pump (extra pump) takes suction from the bucket. It discharges directly into the ADDED manifold block in an available discharge port.

At this point you have a common header. All the fluid will exit the fuel tank into the fuel supply line. It travels to the fuel rails. As it exits the fuel rails, it enters the regulator. The regulator keeps the supply line pressurized - in my case 58psi. The extra fuel dumps into the return line from the regulator. It then follows the return line and enters the fuel module. The return fuel then follows the added EFI fuel hose that connects the return directly into the bucket. So all return fuel enters the bucket and covers the fuel pump(s) right where they both take suction.

Ok, that explains the entire path of the fuel with this mod. It does not answer if there will be cavitation if the pumps suck in some air. However, these DW300 pumps are MEDIUM size pumps. Conservatively, just one pump is enough to deliver the fuel needs of ~500whp. The secondary pump is therefore not needed until you reach either a) drop in fuel pressure b)Hobbs pressure switch sensing boost if forced inducted.

In my case, boost so I have a Hobbs pressure switch at 2psi activation in which the secondary pump will start. At this point with 2 pumps activated, there is a considerable amount of suction in the fuel bucket. Keep in mind that the primary is also taking suction from the driver's side via jet pump. There is also an increase in flow of fuel. So now you are worried about pressure and volume. The regulator should be doing it's job keeping pressure, the volume should be greatly increased with 2 pumps running - so much that you will have excess fuel and return that fuel right back to the fuel bucket which keeps the pump(s) covered and protected from cavitation.

I'm not going to go into the math - just simply the flow path and how it operates. With all the stuff I just wrote above, it basically says this entire design was about increasing volume at constant pressure and ensuring the fuel bucket stays wet with a dedicated return directly into the bucket. These pumps are not aggressive and mitigate excessive suction in the bucket and IMHO much better than dropping in a whopper of a fuel pump that runs constantly and building up stupid heat.

Do I think there will be cavitation - no I do not, absolutely not. Boosted, I would not WOT with a 1/4 tank or take it to auto-x, track, drag etc. - chances are much higher to cause cavitation because the gas is swishing all over the place. I would totally feel safe 1/4 tank cruising on the interstate and conveniently find a gas station with no worries.


That aside, one thing that I like about this build is the greatly improved fuel return / cooling system. If I'm deducing the function of the OEM regulator correctly, the unit has a tiny, always-open port (pictured below) that admits a small stream of fuel into the bucket.

I don't know about the cooling with the return system. I read a lot of fuel mods on Viper forums and some import stuff and the benefits and it's mixed reaction. Some say cooler, some say creates more heat. The heat which some debate come from returning at the fuel rails which there is some heat rejection. I think the real benefit which everyone and their cousin agrees...much better fuel regulation and far easier and reliable tuning!

The OEM fuel regulation is like running on a spare tire with high horsepower or boosted applications. The V1's in the realm of other platforms that are heavily modded are infants and often passed in favor of something mod friendly. Perfect example, my wife's FRS already has multiple turbo bolt on kits with complete fuel modifications from some of the top companies and it's only been in U.S. production for 1yr. No thinking, no Home Depot trips, no 'come-n-go' DIY fabricators, just bolt it on and go!

philistine
11-07-13, 08:48 PM
The first 6 times were to figure out what forum members and the shops I called around the country couldn't tell me--that pressure plate torque specs are application specific.

This is phuckin BS tribal knowledge if it's true. I'm dropping the transmission tomorrow and taking measurements. I guess I'm a little pissed if I'm the last to know this very important nugget. I started a thread to investigate since no change in bleeding.

To answer your question on my exhaust...it's all SS and the headers are wrapped, no expensive coating anywhere.

Back to YOUR fuel system...that expensive Russell manifold looks just as bulky as the cheap Home Depot manifold. Not saying bad/good just doesn't seem to be any benefit with your choice since size is an issue and the height as it compresses to fit in the tank. I'm interested how you're going to wire it all...haha. I have some photos where I wired my relays and customized a lot of the Racetronix stuff to run in parallel. I did a lot of testing with the logics before I installed and meticulously wired it all up.

FuzzyLogic
11-07-13, 09:33 PM
Back to YOUR fuel system...that expensive Russell manifold looks just as bulky as the cheap Home Depot manifold. Not saying bad/good just doesn't seem to be any benefit with your choice since size is an issue and the height as it compresses to fit in the tank. I'm interested how you're going to wire it all...haha. I have some photos where I wired my relays and customized a lot of the Racetronix stuff to run in parallel. I did a lot of testing with the logics before I installed and meticulously wired it all up.

I'm not sure I'd call $19 expensive, but okay. Although I agree that the Russell 650420 is just as bulky as (if not more so) the Home Depot manifold, it has 10AN ports instead of 1/4" NPT ports. Pictured below is the same 5/16" barb to 1/4" NPT adapter that you have. Although you can't see it in the picture, you can fit the outer 1/4" NPT threads into the inner diameter of the 10AN fittings and tubing! This stuff rivals garden hose... having this much margin makes me want to wring my hands and do my evil scientist laugh. ;)

http://i1345.photobucket.com/albums/p663/Fuzzylog1c/Fuel%20System/DSC01720_Smaller_zpsde0dd0bd.jpg (http://s1345.photobucket.com/user/Fuzzylog1c/media/Fuel%20System/DSC01720_Smaller_zpsde0dd0bd.jpg.html)

I'm actually not going to use those blue fittings because the 8mm to 10AN barbs I ordered will fit directly into the Y block.

*evil cackle*

philistine
11-07-13, 10:13 PM
Interesting...but I feel that you are focusing too much on restriction with the exit of the fuel as it goes into the common header (fuel supply). I'm not going to go into fluid dynamics but you can think of it as an orifice...volume will stabilize very shortly at the exit as it enters the main fuel supply as well as pressure etc.

I'm actually happy that you are taking a different approach with the fittings - just saying to focus on the dollar instead of the dime.

FuzzyLogic
11-07-13, 10:43 PM
Interesting...but I feel that you are focusing too much on restriction with the exit of the fuel as it goes into the common header (fuel supply). I'm not going to go into fluid dynamics but you can think of it as an orifice...volume will stabilize very shortly at the exit as it enters the main fuel supply as well as pressure etc.

I'm actually happy that you are taking a different approach with the fittings - just saying to focus on the dollar instead of the dime.

Restriction is a concern, but it's not my primary concern. Based on many pages of emails I've had with some reticent CTS-V owners (the ones that spent $3,000+ experimenting with V1 fuel systems and $60,000+ on V1 upgrades), I believe that twin DW300s will not be able to handle cog-overdriven supercharger power transients without the aid of a significant quantity of pressurized fuel in the feed lines.

What worked for most of the guys was feeding a 1-2 liter surge tank, which was equipped with an Aeromotive 11104 Eliminator (550 lph) or equivalent pump, with twin in-tank pumps through a 8AN feed and 6AN return. So, we know that 8AN line supports 1/2" ID hose. To find the volume of fuel stored by a system with 12 feet of 8AN hose and a 1-2 liter surge tank, we do the following: pi*(0.5^2)*12*12 = 133 cubic inches in the lines --> 2.18 liters. 2.18 liters plus one or two extra liters in the surge tank equals 3.18 or 4.18 liters total. By contrast, my 12AN system (with no surge tank) will use 3/4" ID hose and therefore holds: pi*(0.75^2)*12*12 = 254 cubic inches --> 254 cubic inches or 4.16 liters total.

So, I have a plan. Although it may have seemed haphazard due to my poor communication earlier, hopefully you can see that there is a technical justification for my parts selection. Whether or not it's a good enough justification remains to be seen. Fingers crossed.

philistine
11-07-13, 10:55 PM
Restriction is a concern, but it's not my primary concern. Based on many pages of emails I've had with some reticent CTS-V owners (the ones that spent $3,000+ experimenting with V1 fuel systems and $60,000+ on V1 upgrades), I believe that twin DW300s will not be able to handle cog-overdriven supercharger power transients without the aid of a significant quantity of pressurized fuel in the feed lines. If 12AN line can't store enough, I'm going to have to add additional pressurized fuel volume by installing a 1-2 liter surge tank, fed by the twin DW300s, and equipped with an Aeromotive 11104 Eliminator (550 LPH) fuel pump.

I know I sound like I've lost my marbles, but having design details on the many failed fueling systems these guys went through to make their power levels it a lot clearer.

I don't have any real data on this...not for awhile to even comment. My build will be primary for street and secondary for show...track, drag etc. I know that I have friends close by that tear up their transmissions and blow engines regularly with all the drag they do - I just watch.

They are running over 1kwhp and I typically see 3 pumps in there at minimum. Keep in mind that these are not street cars.

odthetruth
11-08-13, 11:52 PM
A couple of comments and questions here...

1) I've disassembled everything. For those using these pics as a guide for changing your fuel pump, etc... on that same APE site, you'll NEED those flex hoses. At least 1 8-inch it looks like. I know some of the guys wrote you can pop these off with a flathead... but save yourself the stabs in the hand, and just cut and replace em.

2) I received Kit 11 from APE (Ordered the flex hoses from them as well). I noticed the new fuel sock, etc. However, on the stock fuel sock, you'll notice its got the small fuel pump holding plastic piece which goes INSIDE the sock it seems. Here, I see you guys used worm clamps to hold down TWO pumps, but for single pumps... They would move too much using just kit 11 without some sort of clamping setup. I'm planning on spraying the sock I have with carb cleaner, and re-using for solidity. Any ideas on using kit 11 with a single pump, especially considering kit 11's sock doesn't just drop into the bucket. The interior of the bucket would have to be dremel'd.

3) Purchased the DW300 kit from ebay, and it came with an electrical connector for the pump. Seems to be the same as the stock OEM, and didn't see the need to change it. (Although I seem to be having an electrical issue, this entire fuel pump assembly is from another V, and I'm working on it before removing the one in my car now)

I plan on cutting \ drilling some holes at the front of the bucket to allow more flow. I read a bit about questions on cavitation and saw this:
http://ls1tech.com/forums/17362136-post7.html


I've been running a aeromotive 340 for 2 seasons without incident. When i first installed it, it would starve if the tank was low (around 1/8 th tank) and accelerating. I drilled some extra holes in the basket in the top portion towards the front . Haven't had a problem since, I try not to let it go below a 1/4 tank.
Figured this was how I'd go.

4) Does anyone have any paperwork or guide for the Racetronix harness? (or did I miss it on one of these pages?) Honestly looks pretty straight forward, but trying to figure out how to add the additional ground I bought optional. Would feel more comfortable with instructional, although will complete either way.

philistine
11-09-13, 12:11 AM
1) Yeah purchase all new flex hoses, do not reuse any of the stock flex hoses. I used a heat gun and worm clamps on the new flexible hoses.

2) If you're just dropping in another pump, use the stock filter and not the one from APE. I used kit #11 because I was fitting in 2 pumps. Yeah, I hacked away a lot of the bucket to fit it in there.

3) The DW300 electrical wires come wtih 16awg IIRC. You can augment that by using different connectors and beefing up the wiring to 14awg but I didn't because the pumps are MEDIUM duty - didn't see the need to beef it up.

4) In this thread is I mounted the Racetronix harness and showed how I routed it. Let me know if you need more detail - I can give you direction, just need to know what you need.