: Dex Cool.....What going on?



agood1
03-28-05, 03:03 PM
I have read many threads on this board about flushing the coolant and replacing with tablets and more Dexcool. MY question is why? I have found several law suits filed aganst GM for problems with Dexcool and it not doing what it was supposed to....and people are sueing for the repairs they had to do on their car....

SO do I flush and use Dexcool....or just a regular green antifreeze?

My car has 100k miles on it......and I have no idea of it's maintenance history....so I want to flush it and start with something clean.

Thanks

mcowden
03-28-05, 03:18 PM
I won't speak to the merits of DexCool because I don't know the facts, but I can tell you that you can feel free to use whichever you want. The DexCool (orange stuff) should last 5 years/100k miles. The regular, silicated coolant (green stuff) will need to be replaced sooner than that, probably every 2 or 3 years, but do whatever the bottle says. If you use the green stuff, you have to change it every 2 or 3 years for the rest of its life because once the system is contaminated with the silicates, the DexCool won't last like it's supposed to. No matter which coolant you use, mix it 50/50 with distilled water and make sure you also use the 6 Bar's Leaks pellets or 2 tubes of Bar's Leaks Goldenseal powder installed into a radiator hose, not in the surge tank. That takes care of the supplement. Don't use the aluminum or copper stuff, just the two mentioned above.

Hope that gets you where you need to go. Let us know what you decide to do and how it works out.

Ranger
03-28-05, 05:00 PM
Lets face it, Dex-Cool came out in what, 96? If it where that bad, don't you think GM would have gone back to the green silicated coolant by now? Don't you think we'd all be having problems by now? I am almost at 100K and no problems yet. Many others are well over 100K and some even over 200K. That in itself says a lot for Dex-Cool. I'm not necessarily beating Dex's drum here, I just haven't seen any problems if it is replaced as required or sooner. Do a search in the archives for Dex-Cool and read what Bbobynski has to say. He explains the problems the Chevy guys are having and why very well. Just my $0.02 but I'd stay with the factory fill.

BeelzeBob
03-28-05, 06:07 PM
You have 100k with likely no cooling system service ever and you are worried about DexCool and want to flush and start with something "clean"....LOL LOL

Sounds like the DexCool is doing exactly what it is supposed to do...provide nearly lifetime corrosion protection for the cooling system. Your car is living proof of that. If there was something "wrong" with DexCool don't you think that some sign might have showed up during the last 7 years and 100K with your engine...?? LOL LOL

Drain the system, install the 6 coolant supplement pellets into one of the radiator hoses while the system is empty, refill with fresh 50/50 DexCool/distilled water and keep driving. DexCool is a thoroughly tested product that has shown excellent performance in the field. There are millions and millions of cars and trucks running quite happily with it so rest easy.

Like any product there are cases where the systems were run low on coolant and problems occurred with DexCool. People love to point out the problem cases and condemn DexCool. They seem to forget that those same vehicles, if run with the silicated coolants of old, would have suffered corrosion damage...i.e...cooling system failure, blown head gaskets, plugged heater cores, internal corrosion and cracks.....from the depleted coolant never being changed. There is no panacea for coolant. The green stuff works well at preventing corrosoin but it has to be replaced periodically due to the fact that the corrosion protection becomes depleted. DexCool has nearly infinite corrosion protection but the system must be kept full and not run half empty. DexCool MUST be diluted 50/50 with water. Many of the "problems" are from people running straight DexCool against the directions.

I would stick with the DexCool since it has proven itself so far in your engine.

kjd03842
03-29-05, 08:46 AM
It seems flushing with a hose is not recommended. Surely there is coolant and sludge left after draining? Is there any other way to flush, rather than just doing a drain and fill? What about pouring several gallons of distilled water through the system? Or how about using a shop vac to help it along? Any other ideas?
I bought at 62000, now at 65000 and would like to go ahead and change the coolant. Peace of mind and all that...

Thanks
KD in NH

kjd03842
03-29-05, 08:55 AM
Also, tablets in the hose...those pellets dissolve on contact with cold water?
The Caddy tech said absolutely do NOT use additives, he had heater core concerns. I didn't bother telling him the head gaskets are a bigger concern to me, not that the heater core would be an easy fix though.
Anyways, everyone here says use the additives, I am inclined to go with that. But could someone (Bbob?) explain the benefits more clearly for me?
And let me make sure: Bar's Leaks pellets, right? Is there a part number or anything?

BeelzeBob
03-29-05, 11:26 AM
The caddy tech needs to read the service manual. The supplement is a recommended part of the service procedure.

Just drain and fill. This way no straight water is introduced into the system. Do it frequently enough and the system will be purged anyway.

If you push distilled water thru the system then you have to add straight coolant to make up for the straight water left in the system and you need to run the engine, check the concentration, add/subtract coolant/water to get it correct, check it again, etc....big PIA. Just drain and refill with 50/50 to avoid the hassle and mistakes. Using the shop vac pressure to help the system drain more from the block is fine.

If you use the forum search feature and type "coolant supplement" into the drop down box you will find much much info. Read my posts to the various threads.

The supplement is simply a sealer that protects against nuisance leaks from gasket surfaces, seals, casting porosity, etc.... Just insurance against leaks.

The supplement will quickly soften and disperse in any temperature water. It is so cheap that you can buy an extra pack and try it yourself. It doesn't dissolve but rather softens and goes into suspension into the coolant. You must put it into the rad hose so that it is part of the bulk flow of the coolant. The surge tank is a very low flow, quiet area that will not disperse the supplement thru the system.


http://www.barsproducts.com/origin.html You want HDC or G12BP or go to any GM dealer and buy the GM coolant supplement pellets.

agood1
03-29-05, 11:56 AM
Lots of talk here...but still don't know why there are so many lawyers making money from Dex-cool related problems.

I drained and flushed mine last night..I used Dex-cool...Preston Dex-Cool...the only dex-cool product I could find at the local APS. I figured since it was only $1 more than the green stuff...why not?

So it is done....but when I drained the system...I only got about 1.5 gallons of fluid out.....the manual says it hold 12.5 quarts....I guess mixing the new with the old is not a problem....?

Kev
03-29-05, 12:06 PM
Lots of talk here...but still don't know why there are so many lawyers making money from Dex-cool related problems.
Likely because people don't follow proper directions and when the :fan: instead of owning up to their own foolishness or ignorance they get lawyers who are not above filing spurious lawsuits for profit.


So it is done....but when I drained the system...I only got about 1.5 gallons of fluid out.....the manual says it hold 12.5 quarts....I guess mixing the new with the old is not a problem....?Should't be a problem if you maintain it regularly.

Just drain and fill. This way no straight water is introduced into the system. Do it frequently enough and the system will be purged anyway.

mcowden
03-29-05, 12:21 PM
The lawyers are making money because lawyers look for any reason to litigate. That's how they make money. The fact that they're making money is of no relevance whatsoever to the merits of the case. They'll make money at the expense of DexCool or murder victims or senior citizens or big corporations or wherever there's money to be made. The facts and the outcome are not their concern, it's just a game to see which lawyer gets the most money.

I've had no problems with DexCool in my car with 93k miles, so I believe it's fine. The key point in litigation is probably going to be whether or not the cooling systems were maintained according to manufacturer requirements, and there's enough fuzzy stuff in there that they can litigate the thing to eternity and never get it figured out. One side or the other will probably settle and nobody will ever know for sure whether or not DexCool was the source of the problem. Personally, I'm sticking with DexCool and maintaining the cooling system the way the manufacturer says to do it, and I'll never worry about it again. You're doing the same thing, so if I was you, I would just quit worrying about it.

When you say you "flushed" your cooling system, what exactly do you mean? Did you drain and refill it, or did you push something else into the system to clean it out? If you just drained it and refilled with a 50/50 DexCool/distilled water mix and added the coolant supplement as recommended, you will be just fine. You can't drain the whole system, so there will be some mixing of old and new. Fine. No problem. If you want to be extra careful, do the same thing every 2 or 3 years and don't worry about it.

Here's my question for Bbobynski: If you just drain and refill, you're obviously not replenishing the same volume of coolant additives (in the case of DexCool, organic acids package) as was there when the system was initially filled. In that case, do the remaining additives from the original coolant and the new stuff combine to form sufficient protection to last another 5 years/100k miles, or should it be done more frequently after that? Hopefully that question makes sense to you. Essentially, you're not putting the same amount of protective elements into the system as were originally there, so does it still last the same time that way or should it be done more frequently? Just checking.

BeelzeBob
03-29-05, 02:38 PM
Here's my question for Bbobynski: If you just drain and refill, you're obviously not replenishing the same volume of coolant additives (in the case of DexCool, organic acids package) as was there when the system was initially filled. In that case, do the remaining additives from the original coolant and the new stuff combine to form sufficient protection to last another 5 years/100k miles, or should it be done more frequently after that? Hopefully that question makes sense to you. Essentially, you're not putting the same amount of protective elements into the system as were originally there, so does it still last the same time that way or should it be done more frequently? Just checking.


Yea, technically the whole system would be drained and refilled with fresh coolant. But...consider that the DexCool is basically a lifetime coolant that could function fine with no replacement in most cases. In other words, there is a lot of cushion in the DexCool service requirements. Just draining and refilling with fresh coolant is sufficient to spike the additive package for it to last another 5 years. I always assume that common sense will prevail and that if the system is drained and it is hideously dirty or corroded or ????? the person would recognize something out of the ordinary and drain and refill again in the near future to start to replace all of the coolant and/or take some measures to get all the old stuff out and fill completely with new. Usually, with DexCool, the system looks so good that it is perfectly fine when drained and simply refilled.

BeelzeBob
03-29-05, 02:44 PM
Lots of talk here...but still don't know why there are so many lawyers making money from Dex-cool related problems.




Lots of talk, yes, but from someone that has worked on the development of DexCool and seen the testing first hand and knows what it will and won't do.

If you are going to base your decision on the actions of a bunch of lawyers then you are in for a rude awakening as to what they know about coolant or anything else. The only thing they are worried about is making money. Period. And who says that they are making money from DexCool related problems. They have filed a bunch of class action lawsuits. Why shouldn't they. It is like playing the lotto. Sooner or later they might file one that pays off bigtime....whether it be coolant or malpractice or whatever.

DexCool is like any other product. It can be misused and problems can occur that are no fault of the DexCool. If it weren't for DexCool the lawyers would be sueing because the manufacturers "should have used DexCool" and instead their clients' systems rotted out....LOL.

There is a lot in the archives on this, explaining what has happened with DexCool and such. Search the forum archives using "DexCool" and read lots more talk....

agood1
03-30-05, 02:56 PM
I agree....but I am very familiar with the court system...although I am not a Lawyer...and I know they can't just file a suit without some type of evidence. So there must have been some problems somewhere...and the lawyer feel they can prove it was not the consumer's fault.

Thanks for the replies....

dkozloski
03-30-05, 04:17 PM
agood1, you are living in a dream land. Lawyers will file a suit anytime, anyplace, no matter how rediculous as long as someone will pay his fee. A guy got a lawyer to file a workman's compensation suit on his behalf because he was sitting at his desk with his chin resting in his hands. He nodded off and his elbows slid out and his chin hit the edge of the desk. Two guys sued a lawnmower manufacturer because they tried to pick up the mower when it was running and use it to trim the hedge and cut some fingers off. The lawyers were lined up around the corner to take the case. There are thousands of spurious lawsuits filed every year in every jurisdiction. If you are not aware of this you must be from another planet.

BeelzeBob
03-30-05, 04:45 PM
I agree....but I am very familiar with the court system...although I am not a Lawyer...and I know they can't just file a suit without some type of evidence. So there must have been some problems somewhere...and the lawyer feel they can prove it was not the consumer's fault.

Thanks for the replies....


BS....a lawyer can file a lawsuit for ANYTHING whether there is any proof or not ....even if there isn't an ounce of credibility in the claim they can still file a lawsuit. They might not win it.....but that is the point. Trail lawyers use lawsuits as a method of extortion. Whether there is any credibility or not you still must hire an attorney and defend yourself in court. Too many times even totally facitious lawsuits are "settled" out of court just because the cost of defending against it is greater than what the attorneys will "settle" for. So they simply extort money from innocent sources by just filing the lawsuit. I know this first hand. If you think that an attorney needs any proof whatsoever to file a lawsuit you are living in a dream world and know very little about the legal system. An attorney does not even have to tell the truth in court or in his legal briefs because he is not under oath. The facts may not back him up but he can claim ANYTHING.

Kev
03-30-05, 04:53 PM
It all comes down to who gives the better argument. Especially in civil cases.

STS 310
03-30-05, 08:55 PM
Thing is, has there ever been a civil complaint and subsequent lawsuit with the green silicate coolant?

And if so, is there any similarities to the DEXCOOL cases.

BBOB, how long has the stuff (DEX) been around?

dkozloski
03-30-05, 09:57 PM
STS 310, maybe you've discovered a whole new virgin area for nuisance lawsuits. I'll bet there are attorneys on this forum that are ready and willing to fight the good fight right down to your last dime. I'll hold your coat.

Dadillac
03-30-05, 10:12 PM
Getting away from all the legal talk, I have a question. Most of my previous vehicles (that I have had long enough to require a coolant recharge) have had block drains. Does the N* have these drains? If so, are they in the front or the rear?

Don

Ranger
03-30-05, 10:38 PM
I wouldn't swear to it but I don't think so.

BeelzeBob
03-30-05, 11:45 PM
Getting away from all the legal talk, I have a question. Most of my previous vehicles (that I have had long enough to require a coolant recharge) have had block drains. Does the N* have these drains? If so, are they in the front or the rear?

Don


No there are no block drains. They were eliminated because no one ever used them....seriously.

Just drain the majority of the coolant at the rad drain or by removing the hose and don't worry about it. You can use compressed air or a shop vac to push more of the coolant out of the block and heater core ciruit if you want but it really isn't that big of a deal.

BeelzeBob
03-30-05, 11:51 PM
Thing is, has there ever been a civil complaint and subsequent lawsuit with the green silicate coolant?

And if so, is there any similarities to the DEXCOOL cases.

BBOB, how long has the stuff (DEX) been around?


The silicated coolant depletes and has no corrosion protection after awhile and then things start to fail inside the engine and cooling system from corrosion. That is the failure mode of the green coolant. Happens lots of times. I am sure that if some attorney could put two and two together and realize this they would be sueing because the engine or head gaskets or something failed "because of the coolant"....but they just don't readily recognize the failure mechanism of the green silicated coolant.

DexCool has actually been around for quite a long while. It has been the standard coolant in ALL GM vehicles since the 1996 model year. So, there are millions and millions of cars on the road with DexCool and yet you only hear about a few of them....like a lot of other things. DexCool was on test as long as 10 years before it was released for production. The early testing was very successful and the coolant was reformalated several times over the course of the testing to improve it's performance. The final version was on validation testing in GM fleets and across the corporation for at least 5 years before it went into production, so it was well tested and there was a lot of experience with it by the time it was ever used in a customers car.

kjd03842
03-31-05, 09:12 AM
When I mix dexcool with cherry kool-aid, it doesn't taste as good as Prestone with lime kool-aid.
I smell lawsuit!

Firewireman
07-12-05, 09:38 PM
Isn't dex cool a 50/50 mix right out of the bottle any way? I keep hearing people say to be sure and use distilled water 50/50 dex cool.

mcowden
07-12-05, 11:26 PM
No it is not already mixed 50/50 unless it specifically says on the bottle that it's pre-mixed at 50/50, and I've never heard of that for DexCool. You can get regular stuff pre-mixed, but again, it says that very clearly on the bottle. Don't pour DexCool into your cooling system without adding an equal amount of distilled water or you could have serious problems, and don't forget the Bar's Leaks pellets or powder.

Firewireman
07-17-05, 08:53 PM
Ok, my 99 sts has 146000 miles on it and still has the original Dex coolant in it. I need to change it, but am not quite sure how to drain it and fill it. I'm assuming I need to take off the cover on the front of the engine over the top of the radiator. Where is the plug/cover I need to take off to drain the system? Once it's drained do I close it back up and fill 50/50 directly into the radiator? Will the hoses fill as I go along filling the radiator? I'm planning on using 2 tubes of Bar's powder mixed in with the new water/dex. I'm also assuming the entire system will not be drained and only need to add back in what drains out. If anyone could give me some pointers I'd appreciate it. Thanks in advance.

BeelzeBob
07-17-05, 09:58 PM
The quick and dirty way is to pop the lower radiator hose off and simply let it drain that way. Do it when the engine is cold. Little messy but coolant flushes away easily with the water hose and doesn't leave any residue. You need to disconnect one of the radiator hoses anyway to install the coolant supplement into it before you refill the system. You can disconnect one of the radiator hoses either at the rad or the engine side and use the output of a shop vac on the connection to push the coolant out of the system to get a little more of it out.

Reconnect the hose and simply refill with the 50/50 premix thru the pressure cap fitting on the pressurized surge tank. Fill the system slowly and the air will escape on its own. When full, start the engine with the pressure cap off and slowly rev the engine up to 3000 RPM or so and back to idle several times to purge any more air out of the system. Refill the surge tank to about 1 inch from the cap fitting and put the pressure cap on. You're done.

Firewireman
07-17-05, 10:56 PM
Any "cleaner" way to do it? I don't have easy access to a lift to get at the lower hose. Also, what do you recommend to catch it in? I assume you have to be pretty quick with the disconnection to not get sprayed from the sound of it? You'd recommend just putting the powder in the hose dry instead of mixing it with the 50/50? Any objections to not using a shop vac (I don't have one)? Wouldn't that also blow coolant all over the place? lol Thanks as always Bbob.

BeelzeBob
07-17-05, 11:08 PM
Well....there is a drain petcock on the left rear lower corner of the radiator I believe.

Any sort of large, flat pan or shallow plastic container will catch the old coolant.

It is best to take one of the radiator hoses off before refilling the system to put the sealant into the hose directly.

If you take the plastic retainers out and drop the plastic blockout panel under the radiator cradle it makes it a little easier to access the drain petcock.

I know that popping the hose off sounds messy but it cleans up easy with a garden hose and you can dilute and wash away the old coolant into the grass as it will not hurt anything. Just do not leave puddles of the old coolant lying around as it is toxic and will kill any animal that laps it up...otherwise it is biodegradable and will not really hurt anything in relatively small quantities.