: Big Three Lumbering Toward Failure



HotRodSaint
03-25-05, 09:13 PM
Six years ago it was Chrysler. Then four years ago, Ford was on the ropes. Now General Motors, facing a $2 billion loss this year from its carmaking operations, has been forced to lay off a quarter of its white-collar workers and plead with union workers to begin contributing to their health insurance.

As in the past, there is a tendency in the industry to believe that if GM simply closes another couple of plants, wrings a few concessions from its unions and comes up with a snazzier line of cars and trucks, all will be well. Don't believe it. In a global industry plagued by chronic overcapacity and steadily declining margins, the Big Three have been unable to earn enough to cover their cost of capital, even in their good years. They've already squeezed all the profit out of their supply chain. And now they are locked in a competition with foreign producers that they cannot win.

"The track they're on is heading toward a train wreck," says David Cole, who heads the Center for Automotive Research in Ann Arbor, Mich. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A64666-2005Mar24.html)

illumina
03-25-05, 09:45 PM
This is bad news. I don't want Cadillac being closed down or sold to the likes of Mercedes or something like that... :helpless:

Msilva954
03-25-05, 10:14 PM
yea....first Chrysler went through major reworks....including basically being sold off.....then Ford completely went through a cleaning process...for thebetter though....and now it looks like GM is gonna have some major things to change too.....

IMO it looks like this could be alot bigger then is being admitted to by GM.....I personally think that GM has been steadily boiling over the last 10 years....and it seems like its ready to blow.

Ralph
03-25-05, 10:35 PM
The GM factories in Canada are profitable because we pay through private taxes for health care, we don't expect the "company" to provide it. Maybe knock the union down a peg and forget health care through the union and it will get back on track.

ben72227
03-25-05, 10:50 PM
Definately time to axe some of the brands and consolidate. It's quite unprofitable for GM to have the same vehicles with different badging IMO. Get rid of Buick and consolidate GMC with Chevy. Saab could be dropped too and Pontiac couldn't hurt to lose about half of its lineup (the Aztek needs to go ,PLEASE GM get rid of that hideous thing. Chevy needs to drop stupid things like the Malibu 'Maxx" and there's no point in having all of those lame Saturn cars either. Just have the Aura and sky and then Saturn would be okay - i mean originally Saturn only had one car anyway, so it won't be that bad. Also, make sure the remaining brands have distinct personalities:

Cadillac - Luxury
Pontiac - Sports division
Saturn - Upscale cars for young people
Chevy - Trucks/SUVs/Corvette/budget cars/family sedans/ and the reintroduced Camaro too:rolleyes: - basically Chevy will be/is the backbone of GM
Hummer - keep making those H2s:lildevil:

HotRodSaint
03-25-05, 11:10 PM
Maybe knock the union down a peg and forget health care through the union and it will get back on track.

I agree. The UAW needs to wake-up and realize that all of their jobs will go away, if they don't start helping these companies become competitive.

Ducks and runs :hide:

Jesda
03-26-05, 07:07 AM
The timing of the report is interesting, because the general march toward failure has been in place for about 25 years. Rick and Bob have their work cut out for them.

Katshot
03-26-05, 07:30 AM
I agree. The UAW needs to wake-up and realize that all of their jobs will go away, if they don't start helping these companies become competitive.

Ducks and runs :hide:

I couldn't agree more. :thumbsup:

90Brougham350
03-26-05, 11:10 AM
I'll agree that tough times loom ahead for the General, but lets not forget that it's the bigger picture that matters. We're talking about the stuff that hasn't even happened yet, like axing brands, re-positioning entire divisions, creating new products, re-vamping old ones.....This stuff takes time, but I doubt in the long run that the General will ever be sold out. It just needs a good wakeup call. I mean, come on, look at Cadillac. Caddy is the coolest brand in America right now. There's a reason for that. While I'll agree one subsidiary cannot bear the weight of the largest auto maker in the world, it shows that hard work and creative ideas can really change a company for the better. The General will be fine, just give it time.

Brian

ShadowLvr400
03-26-05, 01:47 PM
I'm not so sure about all that. The Big 3 U.S. aren't all in trouble.

DCB (Daimler Chrysler Benz) is making a strong march back. The popularity of the E-Class Dodges (300C, Magnum, new Charger) is going to make Ford work to keep the Crown Victoria as the primary fleet vehicle if Ford doesn't step the Vic up bigtime. For just a bit more cash Police will likely soon be picking up more powerful Chargers to replace the current, underpowered Vics. They're doing some nice things with the Jeep line, keeping the offroad performance, but also making them more roadworthy than ever. The addition of Benz's name will also make some people more interested. Dodge with a Mercedes engine? Sounds pretty good. Dodge has also made a good push into the tuner market with the SRT-4, and the SRT lineup is good attention for the rest of the model line. (Ram SRT-10, 300c SRT-8, Crossfire SRT6) These specialty performance versions are a great lure into the showrooms. Something Ford used to know, but seems to have forgotten.

Ford is doing well and poorly at the same times. Ford trucks still dominate the market, (Why, I don't know, I prefer Dodge's) and while there's a number of new challengers, the Ford Truck is still strong. Ford's made a couple of very nice vehicles lately, Lincoln LS, The halo/retro GT (GT40), and the best piece, the new Mustang. I'm not even a huge Ford fan, but I like the new Mustang. It's got strong styling from the Gen1 (duh) but it's modern too. Some people worry about the 3 valve SOHC in there now, but it looks sturdy enough for now. Additionally, it has enough form, functionality, and fun, that the sales of the Mustang should continue to be excellent. Especially since it owns the market segment. However, Ford's also made a couple of mistakes lately too. The SVT line has been shut down, except for the Mustang. (Expect it to show as an 06 model most likely.) While the Mustang is a magnificent car, people also liked seeing the rest of the SVT line. The Lightning, and even the little Focus were popular as showroom attractions. I'd like to see SVT work on the Vic as well, but that's me. (Also just watched Taxi with Queen Latifa, and I gotta say, like her character, and like that Vic of hers.) Though the Crown Vic is an issue as well for me. On the one hand, it's still a damn good full sized sedan for the money. 5-6 Passengers, sturdy V8, well equipped, clean styling, cheap to maintain all for under 30k sticker. Withincentives, you can probably get a base in the very low 20's, ie maybe even 19's if you're really good. On the other hand, the chassis is from 1979, and even with the updates, needs a bit more. The motor is also a bit small for the size of the car, especially with most of the Jap imports offering 3-3.6 V6's pushing more horsepower. (Accord, Camry, Avalon, Altima, Maxima all offer 6's running 220+ horses. Most of those have 250+ available too.) There's also the lone 4 speed slush pushing it around. These days, need a 5 speed slush at least, optional 5 speed manumatic would be a good idea too. I'd say take the Vic, steal some Jag suspension parts make a plushy version, and pull some more from the 4.6 for that one. Then take some stiffer suspension parts, and shoehorn the Triton 5.4 into the Vic. 300 horse, 365 torque could make that into a bit sportier. Though to compete with the 300C Hemi, Ford would need to pull even a bit more from the 5.4. Then for real fun, have SVT build a Vic with even more than the sport version.

GM... They some some great things, and then do some dumba** things, all at once. Great things, the new Vette, the redone SSR, finally splitting the Cavalier into 2 cars, one ecobox, one premium ecobox, the truck line is doing well too. Dumba** things, the Aztek, the styling of the GTO, the naming it the GTO, the insane fixation on FWD (many people are learning that with modern traction control, tires, and suspension, RWD vehicles can handle inclement weather rather well) the massive redundancy, the surrender of an entire market seggment to Ford (See Camaro), the lack of a performance division in the main lline. It's all hurting GM. The death of the Camaro was one of the stupidest things ever done. Yes, it wasn't selling as well as the Mustang, hadn't in years, yes the Chassis was aging, but the battle was more than just market segment competition. The Mustang/Camaro fight was a part of American automotive culture. Losing the Camaro, or losing the Mustang would be like getting rid of apple pie and baseball. It just aint the USA without a Mustang and a Camaro doing battle. The Camaro could have easily done a rework, same as Ford did. The redundancy, the redundancy, the redundancy. There's no need for GMC, right there. Chevy trucks and GMC trucks, are the EXACT SAME VEHICLES. There's no need for that. There goes the entire GMC lineup, that's fine. Firebird/Camaro, didn't need to be, etc. This fixation on FWD, already said, with tires, traction control, suspensions, and the weight distributions, RWD does just fine. Plus, without a big, inexpensive family sedan with RWD, don't expect the cops to hang around. The current Imp is not worthy as a police vehicle. It can't even begin to get the job done. Gramma in her accord can ditch the Imps. The lack of a perfomance division overall is kind of a big deal. It's behind the times to be without. Dodge has SRT, Ford's SVT, Mazda has the MazdaSpeed, Toyota has TRD, Nissan has Nismo, Benz has AMG, BMW has the M, everyone and their cousins has inhouse performance divisions. Cadillac is the only GM line to have one with the V series. SS needs to be turned into an inhouse shop, and they need to get to work bigtime. Cobalt, Silverado, Monte, Imp, keep working, and get more extreme. There's 1 flagship car, the Vette. It's a hell of a car yes, but someone looking for a family sedan will eyeball the Vette cuz it looks nice, and then will march over to Ford for a car that fits their life. Buick is a total snooze, and has no halo car to even spark interest. Here's an idea, bring back Buick racing with a Grand National, (and don't make the mistake of making it FWD, GN owners will hunt you down and kill you) just to spark interest in buyers younger than Methuselah, Then do some parts sharing with other Buicks. With Caddy no longer being the ultra luxury line, Buick can do some stretching, and probably handle mid level luxo, on up to premeire luxury. Caddy's doing a hell of a job going after BMW and Benz, but still some work. The CTS fights the 3 and C class, the STS fights the 5 series and E class, will the DTS be RWD and a match for the 7 series and S class? It needs to be. And all the V line needs more meat under the hood. STS-V needs another 50 horses to hunt the new M5, and the E55 AMG comes with enough torque to give up 10-20 horses and still run with the M5.

The thing I see as possible soon, is the Big 3 U.S. getting more buddy buddy with the Big 3 Japan. Ford and Mazda already play along, DCB and Mitsu play, expect Honda or Toyota to possibly join in, and then GM with whichever doesnt go with DCB. But, that's just all my opinion, agree or disagree as you choose.

davesdeville
03-26-05, 04:50 PM
If you had posted this in 1977 or so I'd have believed it. Or again in about 1987. But now I just don't see it.

An SRT Crown Vic would be cool. Crown Vic SVT LTD maybe.

Playdrv4me
03-26-05, 05:08 PM
DCX is doing fine, their major revamp happened mostly at the end of the Iacoca reign right around the early to mid nineties. First with the Grand Cherokee and RAM, then the Neon, Intrepid, Stratus and the rest of the cab forward cars. Then they slowed down a bit in the late nineties but they picked up steam again recently after the tumultuous Daimler acquisition. The 80's were the worst years for them. The only way they stayed alive through the 80's was the Chrysler Minivans, and the AMC engineered Jeep Cherokee. That WAS IT, Lebarons, K Cars and half-assed Maserati's were piling up. To this day, Chrysler is BY FAR the company that came the closest to COMPLETE anihilation of every brand. I mean the stuff in the 80's was just ABSOLUTE trash and TRASHED in every magazine as well. I am glad the 80's gave us Cherokee and the popular vans, but also sad to see that it meant the end of another great american company, AMC.

Ford is doing tremendously well right now. They are hitting all the right marks and even though I despise Mercury with a passion, its getting some new products to keep it afloat.

GM, get your act together and stay ahead of those fools ;)

Jesda
03-26-05, 05:14 PM
The Camaro disappeared because of a deal with the Canadian government that went sour. They couldnt justify opening a new factory for an aging vehicle in the US.

Ralph
03-26-05, 05:15 PM
Ford is doing tremendously well right now. They are hitting all the right marks and even though I despise Mercury with a passion, its getting some new products to keep it afloat.


Ian, what's your impression on Lincoln? Not too long ago many people here thought they are not offering much anymore and they are underpowered, etc.

Also, that's a FINE avatar! :thumbsup:

Jesda
03-26-05, 05:17 PM
The thing I see as possible soon, is the Big 3 U.S. getting more buddy buddy with the Big 3 Japan. Ford and Mazda already play along, DCB and Mitsu play, expect Honda or Toyota to possibly join in, and then GM with whichever doesnt go with DCB. But, that's just all my opinion, agree or disagree as you choose.

GM has utilized its partnership with Toyota throughout the last 20 years. What I find odd though is how it hasnt done much with its investment in Subaru, other than giving the WRX to Saab. :hmm: It made for a somewhat unrefined, weird-looking Saab 9-2 that competed poorly with Volvo's equivalent.

Playdrv4me
03-26-05, 05:20 PM
Lincoln is OK FOR NOW, they have their ever more popular Navigator and since the Town Car was redesigned, its a fine, if underpowered competitor for the DTS. They also continue to update with most of the luxuries that come out on the competition as people ask for it. This is why TC buyers are so loyal, Ford really listens to what they want and puts it in to their cars over time. The LS has always been a favorite of mine even though its not doing as well as the CTS.

The Aviator was in my opinion an excercise in futility and the Explorer based version has been all but axed for 06.

Rest assured, if Ford takes its attention away from Lincoln, IT WILL SUFFER. They can not rest on their laurels and expect it to thrive. Cadillac has had a tremendously successful turnaround, but it needed it badly. Lincoln has never really been in that much of a pickle, but if left to its devices, it can EASILY end up as another failure. I am watching this Mark LT nonsense closely, more power to them if it succeeds, but I am not too happy about it.

Ralph
03-26-05, 05:21 PM
The Camaro disappeared because of a deal with the Canadian government that went sour. They couldnt justify opening a new factory for an aging vehicle in the US.

Then why don't you build your own cars then?? Be happy GM didn't move Corvette production to Ontario like they wanted to a few years ago! Basically you are saying you had to look to Canadian production to save the F-body??!! :hmm:

And that is NOT the only reason they axed the F-body. It was axed because of a depleting market for it and again they built too many and had to cut their losses because they couldn't sell them.

But it doesn't really matter does it, because Americans buy more Toyotas and foreign cars than American-origin cars. So in effect, THIS is why it's more important to support you local economy and buy the Trans Am over the Supra. :tisk:

It's ok, Canada is used to finger pointing northward for things like power outages, etc. :shhh:

If there was demand for them, they most certainly would build them!

90Brougham350
03-27-05, 06:15 PM
Alright, we can all agree on one thing, GM is stagnant as a whole, and it needs to implement some pretty serious changes. But I think a lot of us are forgetting that GM probably knows this too, and is already taking steps to deal with it. Change in a company that employs 324,000 worldwide employees takes time. GM is taking steps. I've said it before, but 15 years ago, who would have thought 3 of Cadillac's most popular vehicles would be running 0-60 in under 5?

Brian

Jesda
03-27-05, 07:08 PM
Then why don't you build your own cars then?? Be happy GM didn't move Corvette production to Ontario like they wanted to a few years ago! Basically you are saying you had to look to Canadian production to save the F-body??!! :hmm:

No, I'm saying that was GM's reason. This isn't a discussion about nationalism or pointing blame, I'm telling you what decisions took place and the justifications claimed.

If it were me in charge, I'd dump the old F-body, replace it with something entirely new on a new platform, and build it at a new factory in the US or Canada. GM wasnt enthusiastic about the Camarobird in a business sense, and this fallout with the Canadians was a good way to call it quits.

GM got a sweet deal for opening the factory there. When the deal was gone, so was the financial justification for building the Camaro.

Ralph
03-27-05, 08:55 PM
No, I'm saying that was GM's reason. This isn't a discussion about nationalism or pointing blame, I'm telling you what decisions took place and the justifications claimed.

If it were me in charge, I'd dump the old F-body, replace it with something entirely new on a new platform, and build it at a new factory in the US or Canada. GM wasnt enthusiastic about the Camarobird in a business sense, and this fallout with the Canadians was a good way to call it quits.

GM got a sweet deal for opening the factory there. When the deal was gone, so was the financial justification for building the Camaro.

Dude, that's not accurate. There was no "falling out" with the Canadians and I would like to see a link showing that specifically. The problem with the GM F-body compared to a Mustang is that they were a very good car but became waaaay too expensive in the final years. When everyone saw what a bargain the Mustang was they bought those instead. There was no "Fallout!" I've NEVER heard that. Also, a lack of sales like I mentioned in this or that similar thread.

Another thing FYI, is the Ste-Therese factory in Quebec where they were built is STILL making cars as far as I know! So I don't know where you get the information that the factory was somehow dilapidated or GM Canada didn't want to invest money in it because it was supposedly falling apart.

The major reason is all the unnessessary factories they have and they have to kill them.

Randy_W
03-27-05, 10:40 PM
I don't think this plant is building anything!





http://popularhotrodding.com/features/0409phr_camaro_02_s.jpg (javascript:Zoom('http://popularhotrodding.com/features/0409phr_camaro_02_z.jpg',640,480)) This picture says it all--the Ste.Therese, Montreal plant which made the Camaro and Firebird is being demolished. Under terms of a Canadian Auto Workers union contract, the 2.1 million square foot facility (Quebec's only auto plant) is the only location allowed to build Camaro and Firebird.

http://popularhotrodding.com/features/0409phr_camaro_14_s.jpg (javascript:Zoom('http://popularhotrodding.com/features/0409phr_camaro_14_z.jpg',640,480)) An interest-free $220 million loan from the Canadian government and $100 million in tax breaks were supposed to keep the plant open until 2017. We can see why GM doesn't want to talk about Camaro--it's a sore spot with Quebec's seven million taxpayers.

Ralph
03-27-05, 11:23 PM
I don't think this plant is building anything!





http://popularhotrodding.com/features/0409phr_camaro_02_s.jpg (javascript:Zoom('http://popularhotrodding.com/features/0409phr_camaro_02_z.jpg',640,480)) This picture says it all--the Ste.Therese, Montreal plant which made the Camaro and Firebird is being demolished. Under terms of a Canadian Auto Workers union contract, the 2.1 million square foot facility (Quebec's only auto plant) is the only location allowed to build Camaro and Firebird.

http://popularhotrodding.com/features/0409phr_camaro_14_s.jpg (javascript:Zoom('http://popularhotrodding.com/features/0409phr_camaro_14_z.jpg',640,480)) An interest-free $220 million loan from the Canadian government and $100 million in tax breaks were supposed to keep the plant open until 2017. We can see why GM doesn't want to talk about Camaro--it's a sore spot with Quebec's seven million taxpayers.

Ouch! I apologize and had no idea! My friend (who is in trouble now) told me it is still up and running and he is a die hard car guy!

The rest of my statements stand because I believe if there was a strong demand they would be building them. And they did get VERY expensive in the final years.

Is there a LINK to go with those pics?? I would still like to know the whole story, and why they weren't built in the U.S.

youbetcha77
03-27-05, 11:34 PM
Ian, what's your impression on Lincoln? Not too long ago many people here thought they are not offering much anymore and they are underpowered, etc.

Also, that's a FINE avatar! :thumbsup:
I like Lincolns just as well as any other car. They ride far more better than anything I have seen. I do think that the 91-97 style rides a bit better. 90 looks the same but still has the traditional 302. I have a 97 right now ith 8,500 miles on it and wouldnt give it up for nothing. A lot of people are resorting to rear-wheel-drive again. My 90 Lincoln went everywhere I need last year without slipping a tire, where the 90 seville couldnt even budge and the 90 Fifth Avenue just managed to go up and down the driveway.

Blaze

Ralph
03-28-05, 12:01 AM
I like Lincolns just as well as any other car. They ride far more better than anything I have seen. I do think that the 91-97 style rides a bit better. 90 looks the same but still has the traditional 302. I have a 97 right now ith 8,500 miles on it and wouldnt give it up for nothing. A lot of people are resorting to rear-wheel-drive again. My 90 Lincoln went everywhere I need last year without slipping a tire, where the 90 seville couldnt even budge and the 90 Fifth Avenue just managed to go up and down the driveway.

Blaze

I keep thinking about the Lincoln Zephyr. I thought they were putting a V6 in it? I don't think that belongs in a luxury car if true, but I've always liked Town Cars.

Sandy
03-28-05, 12:16 AM
I do too.

http://mark8.org/users/johnaec/greenKIN.jpg
http://www.cadillacforums.com/photopost/data/503/26sandy2.jpg

Ralph
03-28-05, 12:25 AM
That's a nice colour on your TC Sandy. I bet you would have liked LAFM on your Caddy too. ;)

Sure you got enough armour all on you Caddy roof there bud? ;) Mine never shines because it a rough type texture and nothing makes it appear "glossy" for some reason unless I were to spray tire foam over it I suppose.

Jesda
03-28-05, 02:52 PM
I hope you didnt get the idea that I hate Canada. Though I do like to make fun of it sometimes in good humor (as I'm sure you all do to us). :)

Here's the link which contains those pictures and an explanation:
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/features/0409phr_camaro/

Excerpt:

Back in 1987, GM initially planned on closing its Ste. Therese assembly plant, which would've put thousands of employees out of work. Opened in 1965, Ste. Therese was Quebec's only automotive assembly plant, and was a key contributor to Quebec's economy. The Quebec government was willing to go the extra mile to keep it open. Both the government of Quebec and the government of Canada along with the local Canadian Auto Workers union stepped in with an almost irresistible package for GM. The governments granted GM a 220 million dollar (Canadian) interest-free loan, payable in 30 years. Both the Quebec and Ottawa governments each contributed 110 million each. GM also was awarded over 100 million dollars in tax breaks to keep the plant open.

This basic agreement helped the Ste. Therese plant win the exclusive mandate from GM to produce the Camaro and Firebird. There has been a lot of speculation on this in various F-body enthusiasts circles, but in a statement regarding labor relations, this arrangement is stated clearly on GM Canada's own media information website: "GM of Canada's Ste. Therese, Quebec plant has the exclusive General Motors mandate to assemble Chevrolet Camaros and Pontiac Firebirds."

At first blush, it could be assumed that GM--through interest-free loans--was paid to keep the plant at Ste Therese open. The plant was initially scheduled to close down around 1990, however, if GM had closed the Ste. Therese plant back then, it would've hit the provincial economy hard. It would've also hit the Quebec government hard which would be faced with large unemployment compensations, a sizable idle workforce and a departing major employer at a time it was trying to attract new jobs to the area. It's very likely that had GM's plant closing gone through back in 1990, it would have cost the Canadian government far more than the cost of the loans.

This loan agreement came with the obligation that GM would continue to make the F-body at this plant until at least 2001, unless the vehicles made there were no longer profitable and had to be discontinued. There apparently was also the belief on the part of many rank and file union members and those that live in the area of the plant, that the factory would continue operations the entire length of the loan (until 2017), even with other vehicles if necessary.

Collision Course
Over the 10 years the fourth-generation F-body called Ste. Therese home, over 900,000 cars were produced there. The end came in sight as early as 1998, the year of the last F-body exterior update. GM began looking at its plants with an eye towards reducing over-capacity, and one inviting target was the Ste.

Therese plant, which stuck out on the balance sheet like a sore thumb. Certainly it would be argued by no one that a plant under the control of the Canadian Auto Workers union is a far "softer" target to shutter than a typical American UAW plant. The Ste. Therese plant had a capacity to produce in excess of over 200,000 cars per year, yet in 1997 just over 126,000 F-bodies were produced, making it one of GM's most underutilized plants in North America. The plant was a dud, and to top things off, had a bi-lingual workforce which was harder to train, long supply lines, even longer shipping distances for finished cars, and marginal on-site storage for materials and partially finished vehicles.

Ralph
03-28-05, 03:03 PM
I hope you didnt get the idea that I hate Canada. Though I do like to make fun of it sometimes in good humor (as I'm sure you all do to us). :)

Here's the link which contains those pictures and an explanation:
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/features/0409phr_camaro/

Excerpt:

Thanks for the link. I don't understand fully why the plant was considered a "Dud." If the cars sold well, they should have made profit and it should have been kept alive. I'm assuming they didn't sell well and that's one of the factors.

Stoneage_Caddy
03-28-05, 03:49 PM
Thanks for the link. I don't understand fully why the plant was considered a "Dud." If the cars sold well, they should have made profit and it should have been kept alive. I'm assuming they didn't sell well and that's one of the factors.
look what was coming just before GM annoced to kill/pause zeta (in that link posted) :

GM has asked Delphi Corporation, the world's largest automotive supplier, to submit a bid on the safety restraint (airbag) system and steering assembly for a MY2007 Camaro.

damn ...it was getting close ....

perhaps it will be a trimlevel on a Tahoe !!!! Man thatd be awesome a Tahoe Camaro ...NOT !!

HotRodSaint
03-28-05, 04:09 PM
Ouch! I apologize and had no idea! My friend (who is in trouble now) told me it is still up and running and he is a die hard car guy!

:histeric:

Ralph
03-28-05, 04:11 PM
:histeric:

:cookoo:


See Jeff. I CAN apologize. Can you say a p o l o g i z e

Stoneage_Caddy
03-28-05, 04:22 PM
Hotrod, Ralph ...dont do this in here .....In the thread of origin or none at all ....we got the political forums to keep the crap out of the rest of our fair land .....

EDIT : Beatter yet PM eachother ....

Take her outside ARRRR!

Elvis
03-29-05, 10:42 AM
The Aviator was in my opinion an excercise in futility and the Explorer based version has been all but axed for 06.

...

I am watching this Mark LT nonsense closely, more power to them if it succeeds, but I am not too happy about it.

In hindsight, I wonder if Ford ever intended for the Aviator (as we know it now) to be a long-term thing. It was kind of like a place-holder until they knew for sure what they were going to do with it. Someone on here owns one (Katshot?) and was pretty happy with it, I think.

Anyway, there's a new Aviator on the way, and it looks GOOD to me.

http://www.autointell.net/Events/naias-2004/naias-2004-daily/lincoln-aviator/lincoln-aviator-show-top-front-800.jpg

http://www.autointell.net/Events/naias-2004/naias-2004-daily/lincoln-aviator/naias-2004-highlights-lincoln-aviator.htm

I like the way you refer to the Mark LT as "nonsense." It all seems pretty ridiculous to me too, considering how things worked out with the Blackwood.

Jesda
03-29-05, 11:45 AM
Thats freaking gorgeous. Its like an RX330 that doesnt look like (as my mom describes it) a balloon that someone sat on.

Why isnt there a Buick just as stunning?

davesdeville
03-29-05, 06:26 PM
Hey, it's the Pacifica's little brother.

http://www.pcauto.com.cn/news/gdcz/10211/pic/Chrysler%202004%20Pacifica.jpg

How cute.

Jesda
03-29-05, 06:37 PM
The Aviator has better-creased shoulders and a stronger beltline. Not so pleased with the hood ornament..

Playdrv4me
03-29-05, 06:50 PM
Thats freaking gorgeous. Its like an RX330 that doesnt look like (as my mom describes it) a balloon that someone sat on.

Why isnt there a Buick just as stunning?

Yea I agree. See, reshape THAT a little, and slap the name RENDEZVOUS or RAINIER on it, and see the $$ pile up. That is a nice SUV. I also like the Equinox too, I think the Rendezvous could go away in its current state (if were talking about keeping Buick) and be redone on a larger Equinox/Vue platform with the same kind of body lines.

Elvis, That was my sentiment exactly about the Blackwood situation. Sometimes I think there is literally someone in the ranks who is so determined to prove themselves they will try an idea AGAIN just because they are insistent it "HAS to be the next big thing".

Elvis
03-30-05, 04:40 PM
I took a good long look at the Equinox and the only thing I could find wrong with it was the fact that there just weren't enough creature comforts. It's a great design with a lot of potential.

I could even live with the Korean engine. But damn! Luxuriate it some!

adam_mcd
03-30-05, 05:04 PM
i love what ford is doing for lincoln. even mercury. i mean, it will take a bit more time, unlike cadillacs quick rise to neo-glory (brought on by the escalade, only, i might add). it was a shame to see oldsmobile axed and buick to be threatened the same. olds and buick, in my opinion, were the best GM had to offer. mismanagment caused poor sales to olds and buick in the 80s and 90s. the new le sabres and even the new lacrosses are just beautiful machines. i would love a lacrosse. honestly, i could go into a big ole hootenany like shadow did, but my fingers hurt. shadow did bring up alot of good points though.