: Who dies next, Buick or Pontiac?



Mowgli
03-24-05, 06:30 PM
...and joins Oldsmobile in the big Parking Lot of Dead Motor Brands in the Sky.

Lutz' got balls. I give him that. He' making the tough choices. But the right ones. GM's had way too much redundancy for far too long.


Here's the Announcement. (http://channels.netscape.com/ns/pf/story.jsp?idq=/ff/story/0002/20050323/1521959296.htm&sc=robtz)

Can we get a pool started here? My bet's Buick.

If he wants my opinion he should kill off GMC while he's at it - the brand serves no purpose as a standalone entity.

BowenCT
03-24-05, 06:36 PM
Save the GTO by calling it a Holden, and kill em both.

Ralph
03-24-05, 06:36 PM
Saturn.

BowenCT
03-24-05, 06:37 PM
Yup, kill Saturn too.

Florian
03-24-05, 06:45 PM
my .02... Buick. Its apparant demographic is dying off fast and the kids who grew up in the 60, 70, 80s still consider it a fogey-mobile. Poncho at least had the TA and now the GTO for the go-fast crowd. I guess well have to wait and see. :confused:


Florian

akm2k5
03-24-05, 06:53 PM
saturn actually has some great cars coming up.. Buick needs to go.. Pontiac has potential.... But honeslty, they need to really come up with some better products because some of these new cars they are going to sell are really ugly... They need to use better interior materials... And I was thinking maybe let Honda do all the R&D on engines, and just use it in their cars...

Adam
03-24-05, 06:56 PM
like said in another post exactly like this in another section, Buick is being made to go against Lexus. with the CTS and CTS V and STS and XLR Cadillac has made its way back up the auto ranks and is now fighting MB and BMW. Pontiac has a few nice cars on their list, ok 2 the G6 and of course the GTO, so i doubt they will be going anywhere for a while atleast. a while back there was a rumor that Saturn would be cut and they might be looking into it. that to was on another post in the General non model section.

JEM
03-24-05, 07:35 PM
like said in another post exactly like this in another section, Buick is being made to go against Lexus.
That's a long, long grind, though Lexus is in fact selling to the segment of the market where Buick and Oldsmobile were, say, forty years ago.

with the CTS and CTS V and STS and XLR Cadillac has made its way back up the auto ranks and is now fighting MB and BMW.
Once again, they're not quite there yet. They still can't command quite teh dollars or the unit margin that the Germans do.

Pontiac has a few nice cars on their list, ok 2 the G6 and of course the GTO, so i doubt they will be going anywhere for a while atleast.
The G6 is an entry-level product and the GTO, nice as it is, is a low-volume 'image car' and given the relative shift of the USD vs the AUD GM can't be making any money off it, the question is what's Pontiac going to do to make money?

there was a rumor that Saturn would be cut and they might be looking into it. that to was on another post in the General non model section.
The question is, if you've got Saturn and Pontiac and Chevrolet all fishing around at the bottom end of the market, how do you differentiate the products so that they're not eating one another's lunch?

BeelzeBob
03-24-05, 07:38 PM
Pontiac dies.. I don't see any G6s around. I see LaCrosses all over the place...

Vrocks
03-24-05, 07:56 PM
.02

I would say Pontiac... Move the Solstice and G6 over to Buick with mild front end changes. Buick has a classier image than Pontiac and it could serve as the mid-upper brand under Cadillac, and above Chevrolet / Saturn.

They should also kill Saab if things don't improve with that division.... And if they keep making the H2, H3... join them with another division (GMC?).

c5 rv
03-24-05, 08:17 PM
If they keep Buick and go after the big population of aging baby boomers, it will take a Cadillac-style makeover to be successful. I think they could succeed if they get the quality up and attract people bored with Japanese cars.

If they keep Pontiac, they need to find some magic to create TNBT, the next big thing, for persons who are now in the late teens and 20s. Toyota realized that young people find their brand boring and launched Scion. Then again, maybe Saturn with it's different business processes is a better launching pad for GMs effort and Pontiac could go away.

Vesicant
03-24-05, 09:03 PM
Sell Saab off .... and do it fast. Id like to see Pontiac still live but having Buick for the midrange luxury would be better.

Elvis
03-24-05, 09:52 PM
I'm having this massive deja vu right now and it has given me a splitting headache.

ben72227
03-24-05, 10:15 PM
Get rid of Buick, GMC, and Saab. Make Saturn go for the people that are bored with Jap styling and want something that looks a bit more exciting (such as the Sky). Make Pontiac into GM's sports car division - drop the montana, sunfire, aztek, and G6. Update the rest of the models and bring back the Judge and the Firebird.

Sandy
03-24-05, 11:04 PM
Kill off nothing!
Have the government put a nice $4,000 tax on every Asain brand car and a $4,000 tax on every German car sold in this country.JUST LIKE THEY DO TO OUR CAR IN THEIR COUNTRY TO PROTECT THEIR PRODUCTS!

Playdrv4me
03-24-05, 11:20 PM
Our country was imposing a levy on foreign engines there for a while which is the truth behind what kept import engine sizes down for along time, so were just as guilty of that nonsense. Sorry but ESPECIALLY today of all days Im a little bit livid about Government involvement in things right now.

Buick needs to die. Ive officially made up my mind on this (and this seems like a repetitive thread to me by the way) and Buick needs to go. I keep seeing that Buick is gonna be the Lexus fighter and Im sorry people but I just dont see Buick ever beating or coming close to Lexus if for nothing else the name alone. And if the LaCrosse is supposed to be the beginning of this renaissance then it has one bleak road ahead of it, at least the CTS was an all new car, come on now.

Cadillac had what can only be called a MIRACULOUS reinvogoration, and it took MILLIONS of dollars of R&D and nothing short of the utmost detail and attention from every GM employee to make it happen. They are just NOT in the position to expend all of those resources AGAIN for Buick, AND be stuck with the "old-fogey" image on top of that. At the very least, there has been always a small niche of younger people who ALWAYS loved Cadillac's and what they represented, this simply does not exist for Buick, not enough to keep it alive. When I think Buick? I IMMEDIATELY think of the squared off Buick LeSabre of the mid to late eighties, the car that looked like a square Olds Cutlass Ciera, the car that so many 16 year olds suredly inherited from someone at one point or another as their first daily driver.

Ralphie, I know you thought I was attacking Saturn, and it has been all but destroyed but DOES have a hope of a turn-around if done properly and with the right products. Pontiac? Tons of young people remember their first Firebirds, and the older generation remembers their GTO's. There is enough in the heritage of Pontiac to also give it a boost if re-engineered properly.

GMC isnt going anywhere.

P.S. Same goes for Mercury by the way, murder that SOB.

Mach9k
03-24-05, 11:42 PM
Buick is still ok, they're selling quite well and sorry to all who think the LaCrosse isin't good, it's selling quite well too. Buick is also a top selling brand in China, and even sells quite well here in NA. They have tons of new products on the way and each is better than anything they've ever done before. (or at least in recent years)

Pontiac doesn't really seem to have much comming, aren't making any money and to quite a few people is kinda already dead.

I personally don't wanna see either one go, and I hate to say this, but with what I just said, which do you think is going to get axed?

Playdrv4me
03-24-05, 11:43 PM
Buick, at least where I live, I have seen ZERO of Buicks newest products driving around in DAYS. That means Rainier and LaCrosse. OCCASIONALLY, I catch a glimpse of that horrid Rendezvous, but its only because its a relatively cheep but still luxurious AWD people wagon. I agree, I dont WANT to see either go, and it hurts me to see the domestic auto producer I stand behind the most being parted out like an 84 AMC Eagle, but well... that is the reality of the situation.

ShadowLvr400
03-25-05, 12:50 AM
The question is, if you've got Saturn and Pontiac and Chevrolet all fishing around at the bottom end of the market, how do you differentiate the products so that they're not eating one another's lunch?


Except Chevy's big thing isn't their cars. It's the trucks/SUV's that power Chevrolet's segment. Plus their flagship Vette.

Sandy
03-25-05, 01:30 AM
I can't comprehend how you Americans are calling for the end of OUR cars, when you should be calling for taxation on the #$#% imports! Okay, lets take count....
You want Buick Gone, Pontiac Gone, Saturn Gone, GMC Gone, Mercury Gone. So..
Then...
What American Brands are left ?? Chevrolet & Cadillac; Ford & Lincoln. Correct ? 4 brands. 4 brands are gonna do battle against over 17 imports ?? Ya, right! What happened to Patroitism ? The Asians sure have it! Darn, Ralph has MORE American Patriotism......
Keep every last one of them, add more if possible and start making Toyopet pay taxes OUR land that they built THEIR building on in Ky. just as YOU are paying taxes on YOUR land.
We've given waaaaaay too danm much to the Aisans in leeway and unlimited imports, and come here & build them to fly under the radar of import taxation and they have taken the profits and bought up all the Prime American Real Estate, from Rockerfeller Center to Pebble Beach Golf Course to hundres of prime commercial real estate in NYC to CBS and Columbia Pictures!!! When is enough a freakin nuff? Kill all our American cars, and let in more German, French & Asain Cars....Give me a break!!
Not a single American OWNS land in Japan. WE are NOT allowed to! We are Foreigners !! That's how we should be, too. Take your Toyopets, Piss-ons, and honDUHS and get the #### outta here, is what they should be told! They don't sell LeSabres or Corvettes in Japan, 'ya know. Headlight laws or some other stupid excuse.
AMERCAN CARS UNTIL THERE IS BUT ONE LEFT, & THEN I'LL BUY THAT ONE !

davesdeville
03-25-05, 01:58 AM
saturn actually has some great cars coming up..

Name one besides the Pontiac Solstice I mean Sky... :rolleyes: If you say Aura, I will squeeze my 200 pound ass through the internet, out your CD drive and sock your dome.

Vrocks
03-25-05, 02:32 AM
Name one besides the Pontiac Solstice I mean Sky... :rolleyes: If you say Aura, I will squeeze my 200 pound ass through the internet, out your CD drive and sock your dome.

Aura :nyanya:

You'll have to get past my firewall first. :bouncer:

Ralph
03-25-05, 03:31 AM
I can't comprehend how you Americans are calling for the end of OUR cars, when you should be calling for taxation on the #$#% imports! Okay, lets take count....
You want Buick Gone, Pontiac Gone, Saturn Gone, GMC Gone, Mercury Gone. So..
Then...
What American Brands are left ?? Chevrolet & Cadillac; Ford & Lincoln. Correct ? 4 brands. 4 brands are gonna do battle against over 17 imports ?? Ya, right! What happened to Patroitism ? The Asians sure have it! Darn, Ralph has MORE American Patriotism......
Keep every last one of them, add more if possible and start making Toyopet pay taxes OUR land that they built THEIR building on in Ky. just as YOU are paying taxes on YOUR land.
We've given waaaaaay too danm much to the Aisans in leeway and unlimited imports, and come here & build them to fly under the radar of import taxation and they have taken the profits and bought up all the Prime American Real Estate, from Rockerfeller Center to Pebble Beach Golf Course to hundres of prime commercial real estate in NYC to CBS and Columbia Pictures!!! When is enough a freakin nuff? Kill all our American cars, and let in more German, French & Asain Cars....Give me a break!!
Not a single American OWNS land in Japan. WE are NOT allowed to! We are Foreigners !! That's how we should be, too. Take your Toyopets, Piss-ons, and honDUHS and get the #### outta here, is what they should be told! They don't sell LeSabres or Corvettes in Japan, 'ya know. Headlight laws or some other stupid excuse.
AMERCAN CARS UNTIL THERE IS BUT ONE LEFT, & THEN I'LL BUY THAT ONE !

Solid, but politically incorrect points as usual Sandy. ;) I fully agree, but we'll take flak for thinking this way when practically everyone owns a Lexus or some foreign origin car. Not just me, but I read that Canadians buy more than 50% of the American origin cars produced, so in that way, we actually buy more American cars than Americans. (If I have to I can find that link) I believe in supporting my local economy and I know people (my Dad included) who would never even consider a German car despite the fact he has roots in Germany! I feel as strongly about this as others would about never relinquishing their keys to their fancy Lexus. It's all personal preference and feeling but some personal feelings are costing jobs in North America, and no one seems to care and just laugh it off until it's too late!

And if anyone gives me that "Globalized economy" BS excuse then answer me this, if everyone bought a Lexus for one month, are you silly enough to think it wouldn't effect Cadillac negatively?? Damn right it would. Many small local companies and businesses are dependant of supplying parts for Cadillac vehicles as well. Electrical components, glass companies, etc., etc.

GM doesn't HAVE to axe anything, just stop building too many factories and an overabundance of cars, then they always end up laying everyone off and closing those unnessary factories. I have an issue with the UAW and stockholders but we won't get into that.

Buick is having great trouble here selling the new Allure. They might just hang themselves.

Katshot
03-25-05, 06:43 AM
This IS a redundant thread. :banghead:
Nevertheless, IMO, GM should not dump any "brands" but should look at dumping several "models". Each "brand" should only carry vehicles that carry off the brand's personality. Eliminate overlap between the brands. Each model within a brand would be unique in the GM lin-up. The down-side to this is there ARE some people that are so loyal to a particular brand that they want to buy ONLY that brand and therefore look for a comprehensive line-up within their particular brand, and they would not be happy. Also, due to CAFE standards, car companies need a lot of cheap, high-mileage models to offset the larger gas-sucking SUVs and trucks so it's going to be tough for any car company to dump small cars and leave the big ones (or the performance ones).

airbalancer
03-25-05, 07:49 AM
Put 10 year warrenty on GM's cars like Kia does, market the fact that GM cars get as good or better MPG on regular gas then Honda. Give people reson to buy the big 3 cars.

Randy_W
03-25-05, 08:07 AM
Pontiac dies.. I don't see any G6s around. I see LaCrosses all over the place...

That's because you live in Snowbird heaven! I have never seen a LaCrosse here, but G6's are everywhere. If they keep Buick and kill Pontiac, it will mark the begining of the end for GM,it will signal that youth is not important to GM. Youth will get the message and go away!

gothicaleigh
03-25-05, 11:08 AM
Here are the actual yearly sales totals so everyone can quit speculating based on which division they see more of where they live:

Pontiac
2004 - 474,179
2003 - 475,615
2002 - 516,832
2001 - 533,402

Buick
2004 - 309,639
2003 - 336,788
2002 - 432,017
2001 - 405,678

Saturn
2004 - 212,017
2003 - 271,157
2002 - 280,248
2001 - 260,730

GMC
2004 - 602,064
2003 - 578,783
2002 - 560,868
2001 - 554,753

Saab
2004 - 38,159
2003 - 47,914
2002 - 37,805
2001 - 37,556

Alonjar
03-25-05, 11:11 AM
Put 10 year warrenty on GM's cars like Kia does, market the fact that GM cars get as good or better MPG on regular gas then Honda. Give people reson to buy the big 3 cars.

Those people I know who don't like domestics, the #1 reason is reliability. If they somehow magically solved that problem, I definately think they would be doing much better. Hell, the only domestic brand I seriously even consider is Cadillac. Oh, and Jeep. The others just dont do anything for me, especially in the performance market.

gothicaleigh
03-25-05, 11:23 AM
Those people I know who don't like domestics, the #1 reason is reliability. If they somehow magically solved that problem, I definately think they would be doing much better. Hell, the only domestic brand I seriously even consider is Cadillac. Oh, and Jeep. The others just dont do anything for me, especially in the performance market.

Of the troubled companies we have nominated for GM's chopping block, only Pontiac scores below the industry norm.

http://www.jdpa.com/presspass/pr/images/2004055b.gif

Someone also mentioned how Kia was so great because it had a 10 year warranty. From the looks of things, you really need that warranty when you own a Kia too. Could it be the reason they carry such a nice warranty is to pacify their victims... er, customers?

Katshot
03-25-05, 11:33 AM
Historically speaking, I think you'll find that long warranties are usually on cars that need it.

RobertCTS
03-25-05, 01:08 PM
Here are the actual yearly sales totals so everyone can quit speculating based on which division they see more of where they live:

Pontiac
2004 - 474,179
2003 - 475,615
2002 - 516,832
2001 - 533,402

Buick
2004 - 309,639
2003 - 336,788
2002 - 432,017
2001 - 405,678

Saturn
2004 - 212,017
2003 - 271,157
2002 - 280,248
2001 - 260,730

GMC
2004 - 602,064
2003 - 578,783
2002 - 560,868
2001 - 554,753

Saab
2004 - 38,159
2003 - 47,914
2002 - 37,805
2001 - 37,556

Way to go Gothica!:thumbsup: She's got the numbers.
We shoulda done this as a survey to get better member votes.
I think Buick will be next. The Buick line up is so boring:yawn:

Playdrv4me
03-25-05, 01:59 PM
I dont find that the JD Power surveys in various industries, not just automotive, serve as a very good guide for reality. I mean, Cadillac is sitting up there near the top, but in practice, at least with alot of our members here? No way could I reasonably award it the number three spot. I would put it down with Mercedes and BMW. The horror stories I hear out of the SRX forum particularly trouble me, and the STS is having its own set of issues that require frequent trips to the dealer. Keep in mind, this is IN LINE with Luxury brands, it isnt any kind of surprise, they really arent any worse than MB or BMW, but I certainly would not feel comfortable telling a friend that a Cadillac is tops in reliability. The meat and bones that got Cadillac up there was the DTS and that is a relatively bullet proof car, especially in the base version and it is still to this the second to, if not the largest volume car for Cadillac. The CTS probably helped too, but its overall reliability didnt come up til 2004.

RobertCTS
03-25-05, 02:11 PM
I dont find that the JD Power surveys in various industries, not just automotive, serve as a very good guide for reality. I mean, Cadillac is sitting up there near the top, but in practice, at least with alot of our members here? No way could I reasonably award it the number three spot. I would put it down with Mercedes and BMW. The horror stories I hear out of the SRX forum particularly trouble me, and the STS is having its own set of issues that require frequent trips to the dealer. Keep in mind, this is IN LINE with Luxury brands, it isnt any kind of surprise, they really arent any worse than MB or BMW, but I certainly would not feel comfortable telling a friend that a Cadillac is tops in reliability. The meat and bones that got Cadillac up there was the DTS and that is a relatively bullet proof car, especially in the base version and it is still to this the second to, if not the largest volume car for Cadillac. The CTS probably helped too, but its overall reliability didnt come up til 2004.

You need to remember that a Forum like this is an opportunity to vent and criticize. It's not often you will come across a thread titled "I love my car. Zero problems in 3 years". I've never checked but I'd think you would find similar remarks in the Mercedes and BMW forums. J.D. Powers didn't get to the top of the survey business with a lot of errors either. I'd like to believe Cadillac deserves it's ratings:yup:

Playdrv4me
03-25-05, 02:17 PM
I agree, and I also never said that MB and BMW owners do not complain. They do! ALOT! But its the same kind of repetetive complaints and disgruntlement I hear from some STS owners, and it bothers me when I see a once enthusiastic and excited SRX owner make his first post only to have it be about a consistent problem with the car and the dealer. I know you guys in the CTS and CTS-V forums do not spend 80 percent of your time complaining about problems and numerous unfixed trips to the dealer. In the SRX forum, most of the talk is about problems with the truck, in the CTS-V forum, almost none is about dissatisfaction with the vehicle. Im also usually the first to defend the models I believe are holding up their end of the Bargain. Thats the DTS, CTS, Escalade and CTS-V, all extremely reliable and leading their class in numerous ways. If they clean up the rest, then Ill feel more comfortable with such a rating.

Alonjar
03-25-05, 02:36 PM
OK, but problems over *what amount of time*?

Sure, any car should work good the first few years, but the difference is that a toyota will run to 150k or 200k miles and keep on chugging. A ford will be on the side of the road at 80 or 100k miles.

Thats also why domestic resale values blow. Which, in turn, hurts sales. If I can drive a 50k cadillac, or a 50k BMW.. after 4 years i go to sell and the bmw is still worth 35k, and the cadillac is only worth 25k.. I might want the bmw so I take less of a financial hit. Just something to think about

Ralph
03-25-05, 03:18 PM
Put 10 year warrenty on GM's cars like Kia does, market the fact that GM cars get as good or better MPG on regular gas then Honda. Give people reson to buy the big 3 cars.

The problem with this is no one keeps their cars more than 10 years except MY FAMILY!! :D That's also part of the problem that contributes to depreciation because people get bored now and don't even keep them until the warrenty is up then lots are full of them and they can't be sold!!

C'mon people, keep your cars and stop getting bored with them. ;)

Playdrv4me
03-25-05, 03:19 PM
OK, but problems over *what amount of time*?

Sure, any car should work good the first few years, but the difference is that a toyota will run to 150k or 200k miles and keep on chugging. A ford will be on the side of the road at 80 or 100k miles.

Thats also why domestic resale values blow. Which, in turn, hurts sales. If I can drive a 50k cadillac, or a 50k BMW.. after 4 years i go to sell and the bmw is still worth 35k, and the cadillac is only worth 25k.. I might want the bmw so I take less of a financial hit. Just something to think about

The problem with that argument is that it really no longer holds true either. Ill be totally honest, I cant really tell you anymore why the Germans at least hold their value better than the Domestics now. The reliability gap between domestic and german has officially been all but closed. Mercedes is having a horrendous time with reliability right now, and theyve even admitted their quality problems need to be corrected. I see Cadillacs and Lincolns with 100,120,150k miles running strong with regular maintenance, so can we really blame the resale squarely on the reliability of the car? I dont think so, I think there is more to it than just that. I think that build quality and attention to detail mean just as much in some consumers eyes, other consumers like the panache of a certain badge. I think alot goes into it.

I do agree though that long term, the foreign competition seems to fare a little better. I mean, there are more old Mercede's on the road than any other brand of car in the world.

Jesda
03-25-05, 05:53 PM
Pontiac lacks purpose and customer loyalty.
Saturn disappearing would just be nice to smear in Roger Smith's face.

Jesda
03-25-05, 06:09 PM
I can't comprehend how you Americans are calling for the end of OUR cars, when you should be calling for taxation on the #$#% imports! Okay, lets take count....
You want Buick Gone, Pontiac Gone, Saturn Gone, GMC Gone, Mercury Gone. So..
Then...
What American Brands are left ?? Chevrolet & Cadillac; Ford & Lincoln. Correct ? 4 brands. 4 brands are gonna do battle against over 17 imports ?? Ya, right! What happened to Patroitism ? The Asians sure have it! Darn, Ralph has MORE American Patriotism......


As an American patriot, I support free markets and capitalism. And as a capitalist American, I buy the superior product that is best engineered, best designed, and delivered by the company that best serves and cares for its customers. GM is run by a bunch of arrogant jerks who still believe they own 45% of the market, which allowed much of their product portfolio to slip behind the competition.


Keep every last one of them, add more if possible and start making Toyopet pay taxes OUR land that they built THEIR building on in Ky. just as YOU are paying taxes on YOUR land.
We've given waaaaaay too danm much to the Aisans in leeway and unlimited imports, and come here & build them to fly under the radar of import taxation and they have taken the profits and bought up all the Prime American Real Estate, from Rockerfeller Center to Pebble Beach Golf Course to hundres of prime commercial real estate in NYC to CBS and Columbia Pictures!!! When is enough a freakin nuff? Kill all our American cars, and let in more German, French & Asain Cars....Give me a break!!

They didnt take it, they earned it by winning over customers. In a free market, you cant really steal anything. You have to work your ass off for it. GM got arrogant, fat, and lazy. Toyota got aggressive.


Not a single American OWNS land in Japan. WE are NOT allowed to! We are Foreigners !! That's how we should be, too. Take your Toyopets, Piss-ons, and honDUHS and get the #### outta here, is what they should be told! They don't sell LeSabres or Corvettes in Japan, 'ya know. Headlight laws or some other stupid excuse.

No one wants a Lesabre in Japan. Where on earth would you park it? Ford tried to sell the Taurus there and it was a dismal failure. The Taurus was too damn big for most of their parking spaces and lanes. The Corvette is still sought after as a LHD exotic, but otherwise there's no significant market for it.


AMERCAN CARS UNTIL THERE IS BUT ONE LEFT, & THEN I'LL BUY THAT ONE !

Well thats just silly. Youre screwing yourself as a consumer.

I buy the superior product, period. I dont have this silly notion in my head that Toyota makes the greatest cars in the world, or the belief that buying a GM product is somehow an altruistic act that is better for the nation.

If I were shopping for a new car today, I'd consider a supercharged Buick, a CTS, a first-gen Infiniti M45, a Bonneville, and a Lincoln LS V8. I decide based on design, performance, quality, service, and satisfaction, NOT labels and perceived brand origin. There's even a few remarkable cars on the way from Korea!

If we as consumers refuse to BUY junk, then they as producers will eventually refuse to PRODUCE junk, assuming they're interested in their continued existence.

I respect your view and see where you're coming from, and I know youre sincere about it. But in a free market, you have to step up and offer something better if you want to survive. Yes, survival. GM forgot about that essential part of doing business.

Ralph
03-25-05, 06:18 PM
GM got arrogant, fat, and lazy. Toyota got aggressive.

I think the opposite is true now. Cadillac has their act together, but because of the stereotype of superior Japanese quality people will still flock to them while not realizing the consequences of their actions. I'm hoping we'll see depreciation with Cadillac level off a bit now because of the drastic changes and improvements in the past few years. MB is in trouble quality wise, but those that do not read quality surveys or pick up a car mag, or have the net etc. will keep purchasing them with the belief they are buying the best product out there. Ignorance is bliss.

What about all the smaller/larger American companies that sold out to the Japanese for big payoffs? Are they Patriotic or just plain lazy? :shhh:

Ralph
03-25-05, 06:22 PM
But in a free market, you have to step up and offer something better if you want to survive. Yes, survival. GM forgot about that essential part of doing business.

But if people refuse to buy their product, what's the point?? If people don't feel a sense of pride and workmanship that comes from buying our own products made locally in NA, then what the hell is the point of all this!? The economy WILL be ruined by thinking like this on a large scale!

I'm not sure what time period you are referring to regarding GM supposedly forgetting the essential part of doing business. (or what that would involve?)

Don't worry, I'm still proud to be friends with the great people of the United States of Japan. :sneaky:

Jesda
03-25-05, 06:39 PM
Hondas, Nissans, and Toyotas now are mostly built and designed in North America. Even their parts suppliers, marketing departments, managers, and design studios are here in the US, employing Americans. Toyota now invests more money in the North American economy than GM does.

Back in the early 90s I remember this was a big setback for Japanese brands, as GM reminded the public that they were the "Heartbeat" of the nation. The government gave into the demands of the Big Three and required national content to be displayed on the vehicle sticker. Bad news for Japan, which at the time was shipping purely Japanese cars to the US. You could see on the sticker that a Nissan was 100% Japanese, and it made potential buyers feel guilty.
In response, the big three from .jp built US factories, opened corporate offices, and put Americans in charge of design and engineering. Now, for example, the Acura TL is 70% American. Japanese automakers gave Americans what they wanted: Quality vehicles genuinely made by their fellow citizens.

If anyone is being unpatriotic, its GM, with lazy product offerings and arrogant management that hurts itself, its shareholders and, most importantly, its stakeholders (which includes all of us).

Jesda
03-25-05, 06:46 PM
I think the opposite is true now. Cadillac has their act together, but because of the stereotype of superior Japanese quality people will still flock to them while not realizing the consequences of their actions.

That bad reputation is still GM's fault. They cultivated this image of being the McDonald's of cars during the Roger Smith years. (GOD I hate that guy!)


I'm hoping we'll see depreciation with Cadillac level off a bit now because of the drastic changes and improvements in the past few years.

Hey not too quickly. I want my hands on a used CTS for cheap when I'm done with school. :D


MB is in trouble quality wise, but those that do not read quality surveys or pick up a car mag, or have the net etc. will keep purchasing them with the belief they are buying the best product out there. Ignorance is bliss.

I wholeheartedly agree. And MB gets away with this (the way Toyota gets away with POS sludging V6 engines) because they put the time and effort into building a solid reputation. Its a reputation rightfully earned, and a few more mistakes can destroy it.


What about all the smaller/larger American companies that sold out to the Japanese for big payoffs? Are they Patriotic or just plain lazy? :shhh:

They did a cost-benefit analysis that compared the short-term gains of a payoff to their long-term likelihood of success and survival.

Vesicant
03-25-05, 06:46 PM
I feel like watching the movie Gung-Ho with Michael Keaton ...

Ralph
03-25-05, 06:58 PM
Toyota now invests more money in the North American economy than GM does.


OK, so they invest money here, and I know they also built Toyotas in Ontario, but do you think the guy in the head office in Japan gives a rats A$$ that GM has to lay off thousands of workers HERE, when people don't have money to spend on goods because they are laid off the prices of goods and services goes up and effects everybody. This also can be called inflation as you well know. Not good for our economy.

The way I think of these Japanese brands that moved in here on our action, building large luxury cars to steal sales are just "phoneys." They watched the Americans, learned the craft, and built them possibly better, as you say. But NOW I see things going better for Cadillac (for example) and they are proving they can give people what they want, for decent cost, and comparable options, and quality, winning quality surveys and car of the year awards, etc.

We are still waiting for my Dad's 1979 Nova he bought new to break down, it NEVER has. I guess GM did something right. ;)

p.s. Jesda, I'm sending you a link to check out in your email.....give me a few...... :shhh:

Ralph
03-25-05, 07:03 PM
Japanese automakers gave Americans what they wanted: Quality vehicles genuinely made by their fellow citizens

Considering that GM employs MANY Asian, German and Sweedish, etc. engineers and workers, I cannot believe the Japanese cars are still considered "so much better." Many engineers supposedly change companies so that takes from the theory that Japanese cars are leaps and bounds BETTER than anything GM has to offer imo.

Jesda
03-25-05, 07:51 PM
I agree with you. But I still think its GM's fault that people refuse to believe American-branded vehicles are just as good. A good reputation can be destroyed in 5% of the time it took to build it. Cadillac will be on top soon enough. Unfortunately, GM doesnt seem to be using the same aggressive strategy with the rest of their brands.

I'm not so sure GM cares tremendously about the north american economy either, as small cars are now being built in Korea, and parts are coming from international suppliers. The Japanese brands have something to prove to the public about being "American" while GM can rest on its laurels, quietly sending jobs overseas.

Randy_W
03-25-05, 09:40 PM
This is the true measure of investment, the number of workers employeed.







U.S. presence





CompanyEmployeesMajor plantsGM194,00082Ford128,00035DCX76,60024Toyota31, 0008Honda15,9008Nissan25,0008
By the way, I don't know where your so called investment numbers come from, but GM spent more than twice the capital in the US market last year, that Tojo did!
It seems strange to me that your posts run way to the anti-American side of things. Are you sure your really an American first, or are you one of those culturally handcuffed people that takes what America has to offer while putting her down at every turn? Isn't that a Nissan you drive?

Jesda
03-25-05, 11:21 PM
You are correct on the workforce numbers. I was mistaken.
However, my original argument, that BUYERS determine the winners in free markets, still applies.

Not sure why you resorted to calling me anti-american. :rolleyes:

CoupeDevilleRob
03-26-05, 11:37 AM
GMC should be the first to go, I don't see what purpose it serves besides stealing sales from Chevy. Then Saturn, Chevy and Pontiac can sell cheap cars. Between Buick and Pontiac I see Buick going, Pontiac has the whole excitement thing going for it while Buick is fighting desperately to get rid of three decades of grandma car reputation. GM already has a luxury brand, and a much better one at that. When is GM going to realize that Dreystadt's brand heirarcy worked well in the 1930's, but maybe needs to be tweaked a little for the 21st century.

ben72227
03-26-05, 01:22 PM
It IS GM's fault that they have a bad reputation and here's the main two reasons:

(1) They share platforms amongst the brands:sneaky: which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but when GM does it (remember the J body, Cadillac Cimmaron, etc.???) it always hurts them instead of helping them because it makes them look like (as Jesda said) the McDonalds of the car manufacturers. Of course there are SOME exceptions to this rule (i.e. Escalade)

(2) GM doesn't update their cars till its WAY too late. Come on now guys, the Chevy Cavalier should have gone out with the 80s, its pitiful that GM dragged that car into the new millenium when its obvious that it was so outdated and so behind its competition (Honda Civic, Mazda 3, Ford Focus, etc.) I mean if they had actually redesigned the car every few years or so it would be okay, but since its been nearly a DECADE since the last redesign....Thank god they're finally phasing it out...

Playdrv4me
03-26-05, 04:53 PM
Yea, Im sorry, you will not see me back any arguments that faults the Japanese and Germans for the failings of the domestics. Ford is getting its act back together and their sales are reflecting that. This is a dog eat dog world, you either put up or shut up, and right now GM better put up quick. I get so tired of hearing this repetitive argument for domestics over and over and over again. Just because I choose to currently side with a domestic company in GM which I REALLY currently have a great fondness for and respect highly, does not mean I EVER want to see a situation where foreign competition is stifled or eliminated. I will always aire on the side of choice. Unions, piss poor management and an aging product lines can hurt ANY vehicle manufacturer, and they deserve to suffer from their failings.

Also, why axe GMC? GMC brings in TONS of revenue with the Denali which is only offered by GMC, and has strong sales of trucks. Plus it doesnt cost anything to keep them alive, they are just straight copies of the Chevy trucks with a little facelifting. Its not an attempt to share a platform and make it seem like a different vehicle.

Sandy
03-26-05, 08:20 PM
Somebody said that they felt that there were too many models in some brands. I got to thinking about that. There's food for thought there.
For a moment, I want to tell you about a particular Buick. The Park Avenue Ultra is one fantastic car. It's over engineered, compared to most others. The engine is the GM 3.8 6. A proven work-horse, but in ULTRA configuartion, it's also supercharged. Who, beside me, has driven this car? Running 'round town she is said to get 20 MPG and with the 'charger kicking in, she has guts you've GOT to experience. The interior is nicer than any de Ville. Check it out ~ don't take my word. Features? Rainsence Wipers, driver programable time delay off headlamps, not the ones all the others are using, pre-programed to stay lit for a lousey 40 seconds, but YOU program them. 17" tire/wheel combos, memory seats, heated seats, pwr. reclinging seats, very comfartable, large interior. What's Buick doing? They killed it and are bring out a LUCERNE. What is that? A vastly decontented product, when compared to the Park Ave Ultra. It's a Cadillac STS, naked to the bone. This is a dumb move, they needed to keep the Park.
Pontiac. The Line Up is good, but they WERE the youth car. No Firebird ? The GTO is nice, but it seemingly is attracting the 40 somethings, not the 20 somethings. Chevys line up is fine. Dump the Avio.
Cadillac NEEDS a Coupe. For decades the Coupe deVille was the top selling luxury model. Then the Lincoln Mark IV & V gave it some serious competition. The Eldorado. How could they just kill a car with the largest name recognition in America? 80 year women and 15 year old boys can tell you WHO makes (made) an Eldorado. How many of them can tell you who makes an I35 ?? (Infiniti).
I'd kill off the Buick Lucerne, keep the Park Avenue & the LaCrosse (Allure). Kill off the Pontiac Grand Am & GTO and make an inexpensive 2-seat roadster with a V-8 called the GTO.
Leave Chevy alone and give Cadillac a $64,000 Coupe de Ville with styling cues from the Bentley Continential GT.
Saturn. I don't know, I guess just leave them as they are. They do sell to a distinct audience.
Lastly,
On this constant reoccuring coment of "Grandma/Grandpa" cars ... Why don't you think there should be a few cars that appeal to older people?? Look at the 50 cars made expressly for young people! From Civics, to Corvettes, to pick up trucks, to Kia & Hyundais, to Toyota's entire division of (what) HELP! Sicon (sp) to Nissan 350Z cars and Pontiacs forthcoming Soltice Sp) and so so many others...what the heck is so wrong with a couple models that appeal to the over 60 set ??

Playdrv4me
03-26-05, 09:22 PM
Leave Chevy alone and give Cadillac a $64,000 Coupe de Ville with styling cues from the Bentley Continential GT.


Well, we frequently disagree you and I Sandy, but on this one I wholeheartedly agree. The supercoupes are taking the world by storm right now and they are getting more and more popular. Properly engineered and with HIGH quality and feature content, I believe Cadillac could pull off some kind of supercoupe, but it would only survive if it was something uber-exclusive like the sixteen. Obviously NOT the sixteen, but something in that kind of ideal.

traumadog
03-26-05, 09:59 PM
Hmm... wanna level the playing field? Here's a radical left-wing concept: nationalize healthcare. Right now, GM is paying out the nose in heathcare costs (currently covers 0.4% of all national healthcare costs) for its workers and retirees - whereas all the domestic workers of Toyota, Honda, BMW, MB division, etc. are not UAW-tied and have lower heathcare costs.

If the government paid for healthcare, GM would cut its costs and all car companies would be taxed equally.

Unfortunately, I don't think this will ever pass Congress...

As for which division to kill - I'd consider making Buick an export-only division; Chinese sales are a potential mega-growth area; Buick sales are (relatively) good there, and the Chinese refuse to buy Japanese.

Sandy
03-26-05, 11:37 PM
But, it was pointed out in post #27 that over the past 4 years, Buick averaged 371,000 sales a year, and several posts after #27 it shows that Buick is the highest ranking car among owners for vehicle dependability. Why would GM wanna toss away a car with those sales numbers & the #2 ranking car when all of the imports are figured into it?? Better to dump Saturn and or Saab.....No? The #s make sence.

TomDeville
03-27-05, 12:51 AM
Kill Saturn.
Bring back the Eldorado. ;and, Coupe Deville!
Keep all brands. In the worst case
scenario merge Pontiac and Saab under
the Buick label. Cadillac needs
Buick, even more now that the Oldsmobile
is gone. Why? As a direct consequence
of the 'Cadilllac Stigma'. It has afflicted
professionals for decades. Individuals
of some affluence are often modest in the
sense that the 'optics' of driving a Caddy
are a little too obnoxious for their personality
and/or position. The Dentist in a LeSabre or
even a giant Roadmaster is perceived as less
obnoxious than the golf playing SOB who just
bought a new Caddy with the money he got
from the kid's braces, (fill in lawyer, doctor etc.).
GM needs a high end brand that isn't a Cadillac.
Canada has universal healthcare Trauma Dude,
and we still have job losses in the auto sector,
and two tiered healthcare.
Katshot and Elvis called this one ;and, I would
like to add that this thread is 'redundantastic"!!
What's wrong with taxing a few grand $ per car
on companies whose head office is not on
American soil. Also, it is never wrong to subscribe
to jingoism when it comes to your homeland.
Why is it always up to Sandy, only a few others,
and two (2) Canucks to be consistently waving
the sacred Banner of the Home of the Brave?

TomDeville :coolgleam :coolgleam

powerglide
03-27-05, 02:12 AM
both gone.

Gm's in a tough spot, but they put themeselves there, its the price theyre gonna have to pay for all the dumb moves they made.

(I love buicks....) In fact GM is really f@kkin up these days. Their car designs are ridiculous. No offense. It saddens me to see the stupid decisions theyve made one after another, to the jam theyve gotten themselves into now. If its not for Cadillac they would be drowned by now. Good thing they can't spin off Cadillac, because the rest of the company will sink like a stone.

Wake up GM!

powerglide
03-27-05, 02:28 AM
btw taxing competitors isnt the answer.....make domestic products 'more appealing' by forcing price hikes on competitors?

how is that good for the consumer? They still need to put out better product, Ford and Chrysler (sadly) doing a better job than GM right now.

shady offshore corp structures make it hard to distinguish whats what anyways.

Jesda
03-27-05, 07:57 AM
If the government paid for healthcare, GM would cut its costs and all car companies would be taxed equally.

Guess who pays for the government? OH SNAP!

Sandy
03-27-05, 02:31 PM
There is such a thing known as "Protectionism" ~ which I am sure most of you are against. Basiclly in theory, I too am against it. However, the country where the domestic competition hails from, is NOT against it. When we first tried to sell our domestics over there, they flopped. They said that theu were too big. We sent smaller cars. They said the lighting laws were different and our lights needed to be changed. We conformed. The cars didn't sell. They said they only wanted right hand drive cars, we specially made right hand drive cars, they didn't sell. Then we found out why! One reason was that you cannot own a car without first owning a parking space. YOU PURCHASE a parking space, and YOU own it. Parking spaces are available only to owners of Japanese cars. Once you own your parking space, you are free to make your next car American, or whatever....but your 1st car has to be Japanese! Okay...now next item. Beginning in about their 5th grade, children are taught over & over & over that what's good for Japan is good for you. (Smart people)! So, children are indoctrinated into buying homeland products as the correct thing to do. They grow up under this and understanding this way-of-life. Now...."We" go over with our product and want to set up a dealership of American cars. We are told "NO" you cannot do that. We will allow your American cars in OUR dealerships! So, you have a few Pontiacs and/or Buicks in the Toyota dealership. Well guess what? Bonus's are paid to salespersonal to move the homeland product, so again our products limp along. At every possible fork in the road, the Japanese government favors the domestic product, and ours comes up as the also-ran, trying to be sold under a dark cloud. It's just not socially "correct" to patronize any product that does not come from a homeland company.
Yet, with 6 million sales annually of imports in America (most from Japan) - with our own Chrysler Corporation being sold off as waste to a German Corporation, Ford's Mercury & Lincoln divisions struggling, GM's all 5 divisions struggling, the loss of Oldsmobile and Plymouth, the fact that Toyota was granted 25 years free land taxes on their plants, built upon our soil for the purpose of beating any import quotas under the disguise of giving jobs to Americans (like they care !!) still you are against our government doing anything to save our domestic automobile industry.
Yes, our Automobile industry has been under attack, under a plan of action, controlled by a foreign nation for 25 years. In the beginning it was a joke to us. Round about 1995 the joke was on us. Now, the joke is no longer a joke. It's the overtaking of our #1 industry.
You want a depression? If our lazy politically correct government does not step in & support OUR industry, even if only for a short run, we are gonna lose our automobile industry, and THAT is THE bottom line. Toyota & Honda would be only to glad to swoop in & "assist" GM with $$$$ and product for a controlling interest of say 60% with a buy-out down the road.
Something has to be done to aid & assist GM! Killing product is NOT the thing to do, as it sends the wrong message to potential buyers. "Gosh, they killed Olds and now ___?____ maybe I better buy a Nissan cause if I buy a ___?___ they might kill that off next." is what customers are gonna think. :eek:

Playdrv4me
03-27-05, 02:44 PM
Good points, Keep in mind also that even the domestics themselves are not above hurting our own economy in a way. GM, Ford and I believe even Chrysler have all shut down various plants at one point or another, to set them up alternatively in the cheap labor center of Mexico (GM's Delco division also produces most components down there). And this cant be squarely blamed on competition either, as they were all doing fairly well at the time when they started sending our work across the border.

RobertCTS
03-27-05, 02:50 PM
Well said Sandy. I agree with most of what you said. In Japan land is at a premium. I understand the Japanese enjoy the game of golf. Problem is that the land is such a premium that the golf course memberships are out of sight. I read that many avid golfers find it more economical to fly to Hawaii and play! The rich Jananese love the American high performance cars. A lot of the big block midYear Corvettes like the '67 427 are found there. They will easily pay a quarter of a million bucks for one of these..even if there really isn't any room to enjoy them.

I agree that the Japanese government assists the automakers and they also pass laws to keep the imports at a minimum. We need to get tough too!:madtalkin

Playdrv4me
03-27-05, 02:55 PM
What we (GM) need, is a Carlos Goshn. He rescued Nissan from near death in the late nineties by slashing the fat in the company, getting rid of the aging boring designs and reinfusing a healthy dose of style back into every car. He also did something extremely important in that he DIFFERENTIATED Nissan and Infiniti and returned Infiniti to luxury status rather than "just a bigger econobox with more stuff" status it had had for many years. He has brought Nissan back into a healthy and profitable status again. Even the Japanese are not above suffering due to the demands of the tough American consumer... It just takes the right person to fix the problem, and most importantly, recognize there IS a problem.

ben72227
03-27-05, 02:57 PM
Toyota & Honda would be only to glad to swoop in & "assist" GM with $$$$ and product for a controlling interest of say 60% with a buy-out down the road.

Maybe that wouldn't be such a bad thing Sandy. I mean, Toyota and Honda actually KNOW how to make cars that are reliable and cars that people want. I mean, they're so confident that GM sucks now that they're introducing a PICKUP TRUCK! The Honda Ridgeline, and guess what, i bet it will sell like hotcakes Sandy because Americans love Honda and Toyota products. It's probably not even THAT good of a pickup truck, but since its a Honda it won't matter.

And its GM's fault that its like this too. IMHO, GM deserves whatever they get as payback for making all of those sucky cars way back when in the Roger Smith days. (J-body, Cadillac Cimmaron, etc.) and for being so arrogant. Even now GM is being stupid. The Trailblazer SS? With gas prices like they are right now, GM should be making a Trailblazer Hybrid. It shames me to say it, but i just have a hard time trying to have faith in GM when they persistantly make such bad decisions.

Imagine - Chevy Malibus with VTECS in them:devil:.

Ralph
03-27-05, 03:01 PM
Good points, Keep in mind also that even the domestics themselves are not above hurting our own economy in a way. GM, Ford and I believe even Chrysler have all shut down various plants at one point or another, to set them up alternatively in the cheap labor center of Mexico (GM's Delco division also produces most components down there). And this cant be squarely blamed on competition either, as they were all doing fairly well at the time when they started sending our work across the border.

It's well known here that GM set up in Ont. partly because the union got too greedy in the U.S. GM saves a bundle on not having to pay medical costs for it's employees in Canada.

Sandy
03-27-05, 08:13 PM
Yes, Carlos did a remarkable job! Mitsubishi needs him, too. Did you know that Infiniti ONLY exists for America ?? (Possibly Canada, I don't know...Ralph?) Infiniti was created FOR the American market, believing that folks with spendable $$$$ would never drop $63,000 for a Nissan.
Go to the Japanese site of Nissan, and you'll see all the Infiniti(s) rebadged as funny named Nissans !!! They are sold in many countries as Nissans ... only in America as Infiniti ~

Ralph
03-27-05, 08:50 PM
Yes, Carlos did a remarkable job! Mitsubishi needs him, too. Did you know that Infiniti ONLY exists for America ?? (Possibly Canada, I don't know...Ralph?) Infiniti was created FOR the American market, believing that folks with spendable $$$$ would never drop $63,000 for a Nissan.
Go to the Japanese site of Nissan, and you'll see all the Infiniti(s) rebadged as funny named Nissans !!! They are sold in many countries as Nissans ... only in America as Infiniti ~

Ya, in select cities we can get Infinity. Not my major city but in the capital we can.

davesdeville
03-27-05, 11:28 PM
Maybe that wouldn't be such a bad thing Sandy. I mean, Toyota and Honda actually KNOW how to make cars that are reliable and cars that people want.

Yeah, we all know how consolidation of companies in a march towards a monopoly ends up better for the consumer. :annoyed:

kmhebert
03-27-05, 11:51 PM
Lastly, On this constant reoccuring coment of "Grandma/Grandpa" cars ... Why don't you think there should be a few cars that appeal to older people?? Look at the 50 cars made expressly for young people! From Civics, to Corvettes, to pick up trucks, to Kia & Hyundais, to Toyota's entire division of (what) HELP! Sicon (sp) to Nissan 350Z cars and Pontiacs forthcoming Soltice Sp) and so so many others...what the heck is so wrong with a couple models that appeal to the over 60 set ??

And... it could come with a free case of Ensure? Heh, I don't like the Grandpa Car comments either, but you know what? My Grandpa drives a Park Avenue and good for him for being able to, I say.

kmhebert
03-27-05, 11:55 PM
Hmm... wanna level the playing field? Here's a radical left-wing concept: nationalize healthcare. Right now, GM is paying out the nose in heathcare costs (currently covers 0.4% of all national healthcare costs) for its workers and retirees - whereas all the domestic workers of Toyota, Honda, BMW, MB division, etc. are not UAW-tied and have lower heathcare costs.

Or slap on a tariff to level the playing field. Giving China Most Favored Nation status is killing U.S. manufacturing. On the other hand, who doesn't like the $20 DVD players? Tradeoffs, tradeoffs, tradeoffs.

Sandy
03-28-05, 12:09 AM
And... it could come with a free case of Ensure? Heh, I don't like the Grandpa Car comments either, but you know what? My Grandpa drives a Park Avenue and good for him for being able to, I say.
The Park Avenue is one of my favorites. I never considered it before I bought my Town Car in 2003. Feature by feature the P.A. is a cut higher than my Town Car. If my TC has 3 settings for something, the PA has 5. If my TC has a semi automatic something, the PA is fuly automatic. The sole Item I have over it is the automatic parking brake release. That PA is really over engineered for it's $40,000 price. Buick kills it. Smart, really smart.

TomDeville
03-28-05, 12:51 AM
It is my hope that the demise
of the Oldsmobile division won't
foreshadow the Buick's ultimate
decline and/or death. It is noteworthy
that Sandy rates the Park Ave.
higher than his own Town Car! I grew
up in LeSabres, Olds 88's and 98's.
Remember the Buick Electra?
(I still have a near mint 1986 Delta 88
Royale Brougham in the stable, just for
nostalgia, which replaced my 1977 Delta 88
Coupe). Buick has historically provided better
'optics' for the modest, more low key,
professional who does not want to be
seen as a gouging and obnoxious affluent
Cadillac bigshot. Accordingly, the Buick has
a special place and crucial role in any
viable GM scheme to dominate and rise
to the Crown of the automobile design
and production food chain.

Best Regards,

TomDeville :coolgleam :coolgleam

Elvis
03-29-05, 10:32 AM
I like this new Tom DeVille guy. He writes like it's poetry.

:thumbsup:

D148L0
03-29-05, 11:13 AM
What we (GM) need, is a Carlos Goshn. He rescued Nissan from near death in the late nineties by slashing the fat in the company, getting rid of the aging boring designs and reinfusing a healthy dose of style back into every car. He also did something extremely important in that he DIFFERENTIATED Nissan and Infiniti and returned Infiniti to luxury status rather than "just a bigger econobox with more stuff" status it had had for many years. He has brought Nissan back into a healthy and profitable status again. Even the Japanese are not above suffering due to the demands of the tough American consumer... It just takes the right person to fix the problem, and most importantly, recognize there IS a problem.
He is great. But don't forget to mention that without Renault, nissan's recovery wouldn't happened, despite all his efforts (and he aknowledged that fact).

Sandy
03-29-05, 01:49 PM
Maybe we should throw a party and invite Renault & Buick ??
Do you remember when Renault & AMC inked a deal and AMC dealers
were selling the Renault Encore & Alliance & the Fuego ? Then came
an American-ized edition of LeCar ? Interesting it all was to see a Jeep
sharing the showroom floor with LeCar.

RobertCTS
03-29-05, 03:26 PM
I'll start another thread. "Vintage race cars"

Katshot
03-29-05, 03:30 PM
I'll start another thread. "Vintage race cars"

Can't open the thread you started.

RobertCTS
03-29-05, 03:35 PM
KadKat you're having brain cramps! I just opened it up.

Stoneage_Caddy
03-29-05, 03:37 PM
sorry guys took me awhile to create a thread for those with our old stuff in it ....

Hey robert , shoulda said something, i woulda left that alone ....now we got two ....LOL

Katshot
03-29-05, 03:41 PM
KadKat you're having brain cramps! I just opened it up.
I must've been trying to open it before it was totally done. I noticed the name changed.

RobertCTS
03-29-05, 03:45 PM
sorry guys took me awhile to create a thread for those with our old stuff in it ....

Hey robert , shoulda said something, i woulda left that alone ....now we got two ....LOL

Opps. I guess we both realized it could easily be a thread of its own. Hey you shoulda said something man:histeric:
Actually we probably have three going counting the original:bouncy:

Stoneage_Caddy
03-29-05, 03:46 PM
Opps. I guess we both realized it could easily be a thread of its own. Hey you shoulda said something man:histeric:
LOL im so confused ..... :bonkers:

RobertCTS
03-29-05, 03:49 PM
LOL im so confused ..... :bonkers:

Think of KadKat...he never figure out which way to go!:helpless:

Stoneage_Caddy
03-29-05, 03:52 PM
well it was a thought .....i thought itd be beatter to slpit them so we could talk about it and no one would get mad at us going down that road ...
Been trying harder lately to slpit threads and other things so we stay pretty orgnanized ...

Kev
03-29-05, 03:54 PM
I like this new Tom DeVille guy. He writes like it's poetry.

:thumbsup:He is truly an asset to this forum. A gem, a literary rose amongst thorns!
He shames us all toward amelioration!

Good for you, Tom!

Stoneage_Caddy
03-29-05, 03:58 PM
Tom DeVille , the renaissance man ......

Kev
03-29-05, 04:01 PM
Tom DeVille , the renaissance man ......You don't supose he wears those funny old clothes do you? ..... Naw....... :suspect: :rolleyes2

D148L0
03-29-05, 04:18 PM
Ho, ho, ho, ho....

RobertCTS
03-29-05, 04:34 PM
Ho, ho, ho, ho....
:xlol:

TomDeville
03-29-05, 09:26 PM
I like this new Tom DeVille guy. He writes like it's poetry.

:thumbsup:

In my best Elvis voice:
THANK YOU..THANK YOU VERY MUCH! :thumbsup:

Warmest Regards,

TomDeville :coolgleam

majax
03-31-05, 07:32 PM
Well I obviously missed out on this thread:crying:


Drop all brands and start new ones and thank the lord for Chevy and Cadillac:bouncy:


GM had it coming to them now Bobs gotta save them. Fact of the matter is I think that a lot GM employees have or had no passion for their product. Thats why the milk went sour.

adam_mcd
03-31-05, 09:42 PM
off pontiac and replace it with whatever's deemed hip at the time. the new GTO looks like an enlarged geo storm. if i had the choice between a buick lacrosse and any pontiac (even 2), id take the lacrosse...its so sexy. still dont know why you all think GMC should get offed..

http://www.roadfly.org/magazine/galleries/ny_auto_show_2004/photos/photos-05-2004/2005-Buick-LaCrosse-pic-12-6507407.JPG

majax
04-01-05, 10:01 PM
GMC is a copycat of Chevrolet Trucks.

RobertCTS
04-02-05, 06:40 AM
GMC is a copycat of Chevrolet Trucks.

Ask a GMC guy and he'll tell you its the other way around:shhh:

Randy_W
04-02-05, 11:45 AM
off pontiac and replace it with whatever's deemed hip at the time. the new GTO looks like an enlarged geo storm. if i had the choice between a buick lacrosse and any pontiac (even 2), id take the lacrosse...its so sexy. still dont know why you all think GMC should get offed..

http://www.roadfly.org/magazine/galleries/ny_auto_show_2004/photos/photos-05-2004/2005-Buick-LaCrosse-pic-12-6507407.JPG

Yea, that thing is sexy, like Rosanne Barr!:rolleyes2

SilverCTS
04-02-05, 07:25 PM
Both Buick and Pontiac should be dropped. I would never ever buy either.

Move Chevrolet upscale a little bit. I don't like Chevy either, but I wouldn't mind having a 'vette. Make changes so that Chevy competes with Honda and Toyota the same way Cadillac now competes with BMW and Mercedes. If Cadillac can compete with BMW, then Chevy should be able to knock Honda out cold.

Keep Saturn for entry level market segment. I would never buy a Saturn either, but Saturn serves a purpose for the younger, less affluent buyers.

Cadillac stays to compete with BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, Infitiniti, Jaguar, and Audi. The XLR, CTS, and STS are better products than anything Cadillac has produced in decades. The V series puts even more pressure on the competition. The Escalade is also best of breed.

Keep Hummer, Saab and GMC as is.

davesdeville
04-03-05, 04:35 AM
That could work. Chevy could compete with Honda and Toyota, Saturn could compete with Kia and Hyundai..

SoFlaV
04-09-05, 09:51 PM
Move Chevrolet "upscale" a little bit? Come on now...these are the same people who bought Daewoo North America and now sell it to Americans as the Chevy Aveo. Don't believe me? Look at the VIN plate on one: it starts out with the letters KL

Honestly, I see a few LaCrosses down here in South Fla, but they look like a four-door Riviera to me. Pontiac isn't exciting at all. If I had my druthers, though, I'd kill off Saab in a heartbeat. Those things are nightmares to fix when they go down.

powerglide
04-09-05, 09:58 PM
I disagree....SAAB products are unique. The one's Ive owned have had a 'flavor' unlike any other car. You can see the aerospace influence in the way they do things.

Probably agree with you that they are a b1tch to fix though....o is the northstar though!

SilverCTS
04-10-05, 08:59 AM
Move Chevrolet "upscale" a little bit? Come on now...these are the same people who bought Daewoo North America and now sell it to Americans as the Chevy Aveo. Don't believe me? Look at the VIN plate on one: it starts out with the letters KL

Honestly, I see a few LaCrosses down here in South Fla, but they look like a four-door Riviera to me. Pontiac isn't exciting at all. If I had my druthers, though, I'd kill off Saab in a heartbeat. Those things are nightmares to fix when they go down.

Saab should stay simply because they offer a unique product that serves a niche market very well. Saab owners are very loyal, plus Saab's safety ratings are first rate. I actually sort of like all of Saab's products: 9-2x, 9-3, & 9-5. However, I obviously prefer a CTS (that is why I have a CTS).

Honestly, I would prefer any Saab over any Chevy, Buick, or Pontiac. Enough said.

Buick and Pontiac should both be retired. Who exactly does Buick and Pontiac compete with?

Unless you're really into cars like all of us, nobody really understands the GM hierarchy.





Saturn: Entry Level

Chevy: Entry Level but higher market segment than Saturn

Pontiac: More expensive than Chevy, but not luxury

Buick: More luxurious than Pontiac, but not really as luxurious as Cadillac, BMW, Lexus, Acura, Infiniti or Mercedes.


Cadillac, Saab, Hummer and GMC aren't GM's problem.


The problem is with the entry level and mid market segment: Saturn, Chevy, Buick and Pontiac. GM lacks focus in this area and Toyota and Honda are eating their lunch.

Randy_W
04-10-05, 09:56 AM
Pontiac should have been given the job of BMW fighter in the $25k-$50k (today's dollars), range starting about 1985. They had the right ideas, but were hamstrung all the time by GM. Then Cadillac would pick up the $50-$125k range. Chevy should pretty much improve the overall line and continue to sell family oriented cars and of course thier truck line. GMC does fine where they are, if Buick is to stay, they should be rolled in with GMC and make Pontiac the 'niche car' line.:lightbulb

Sandy
04-10-05, 09:58 AM
I agree with you on Saab, but I don't understand what you are trying to say with regard to Buick & Toyota or Honda. You think Honda/Toyota are more luxurious than Park Avenue or LeSabre? You'd better have another look inside the Buicks!! You think the Honda engine is better than the Buick 3.8 Superchaged V-6 ? Check out a Park Avenue Ultra interior, and then a deVille and see which one REALLY is more luxurious! Prepare to be shocked!
Most Honda/Toyota/Mitsubishi/Nissan buyers are at the Under $29,000 point purchase. This price point is where 50% of the Buick buyers are. The other 50% are over $30,000 and would not consider one of the above 4 . They might look at their upscale cousins' like Infiniti G or Lexus E which are in the same price ballpark. I think if GM kills off another division, that GM may as well fold up too. Buyers are gonna say, "Olds died, and now_________ is dead, I don't wanna buy a car from a dying company, and I'm looking at a ______ and GM may kill THAT next, so I'm gonna buy a Honda or a _________. Like when Packard died. For 5 years there was rumor that Packard was gonna die off. So, nobody bought the car. Well, with nobody buying the car, guess what? It died off.
Chevrolet = Entry Level Pontiac = A step up and Sporty Performace, Buick = Full Sized luxury and Cadillac = Luxury and Ultra Luxury.
Saturn = Young Mothers & single women.

SilverCTS
04-10-05, 10:35 AM
Actually, my brother has a brand new Buick LeSabre, and it is sort of nice (for him I guess).

However, if it were my $$$$$, I would have bought a Nissan Maxima or a loaded Honda Accord. More horsepower and more creature comforts. Plus, you still can't get a Nav system in a Buick, can you? Honda and Nissan have had Nav systems since the turn of the century.

Buick is supposed to be a luxury brand. I just don't see it that way. Buick is more luxurious than Pontiac and Chevy, but not much more luxurious (if at all) than high-end models from Honda, Nissan, and Toyota.

Furthermore, Buick is certainly not more luxurious than Infiniti, Acura, or Lexus. Not even close...

Getting back to my point about people not understanding the GM hierarchy...
My wife is a real good example. She has an MBA, is very well educated, and is an executive for her company. However, she couldn't tell you the difference between Buick, Chevrolet, and Pontiac. To her, they're all the same (inferior GM products). But she can tell you about Honda, Nissan, and Toyota and she adamantly prefers Acura or Lexus. She likes my CTS, but she really wanted me to get a BMW or MB.