: GM Says It May Kill Off One of Its Brands



HotRodSaint
03-23-05, 05:32 PM
GM's Buick and Pontiac are both "damaged brands" due to lack of investment over the years, and GM is working to correct that with an array of new vehicles coming to market, Lutz told a Morgan Stanley automotive conference in New York. (http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/ns/news/story.jsp?id=2005032315440002961051&dt=20050323154400&w=RTR&coview=)

But if some of its brands fail to meet sales projections, "then we would have to take a look at a phase-out. I hope we don't have to do that. What we've got to do is keep the brands we've got."

ben72227
03-23-05, 05:47 PM
Interesting HRS. There was another topic on here recently about which brand we would axe if it were up to us. The general consensus was that Pontiac, Buick, and GMC (and Saturn before they introduced the new Sky & Aura), should be cut.

Buick no longer seems to serve a real purpose since the CTS is at the same price level as the LaCrosse and LaSabre and really, who would buy a Buick when you can have a Cadillac?:confused: Pontiac makes some of the worst cars ever. Even their new car, the G6 isn't looking that great. Their problem, in my estimation, is that they are supposed to be the "excitement" brand of GM yet none of their cars (apart from that new Solstice thing) are really that exciting. The GTO is nice i suppose, but when you outsource your American muscle car to Australia, well....It's just not good.

If Pontiac wants to get good again, they need to:

(a) Drop the G6, Sunfire, Montana, and Aztek
(b) Revamp the entire line, especially the Grand Am & Grand Prix
(c) Make the Bonneville "GXP" edition the standard, base model
(d) Bring back the Judge and the Firebird

This way, Pontiac would become more of GM's sports car division. As for Buick, well I really don't see the need for them anymore. Axe them like they axed Oldsmobile. And let Chevy make all of the Trucks/SUVs and quit having GMC OR just let GMC make commercial vehicles only...

Katshot
03-23-05, 05:57 PM
GM has already said that it intends to position Buick against Lexus while taking Cadillac up-scale to go head to head with the likes of BMW and Mercedes. I think it's possible that GM might trim down each line to just the cars that actually fit the specific "personality" of that line. Like Cadillac would only have cars equivilent to M-B and BMW, Buick would only have cars equal to Lexus, Pontiac would only have American-type performance cars, and Chevy would go head to head with the likes of Toyota and Nissan.
GMC will never go away since they are the main truck builders of GM, specifically the medium and heavy-duty models.

Playdrv4me
03-23-05, 06:09 PM
Yea, Lutz called me up, he wanted to thank me personally for starting the "Brands you would axe" thread, said hed take our considerations to heart but he wasnt sure what to do. I basically said "Lutz, its time to shit or get off the pot old man, were runnin a business here".

You can thank me later :p

Vesicant
03-23-05, 06:14 PM
All i want to see is no more slouch 4 speed automatics paired with serious sport vehicles ... and drop the pushrod V6 series . Refine the freakin powertrain on everything not Cadillac to meet or exceed import buyers expectations and the brands can stay. :crying2:

illumina
03-23-05, 06:31 PM
All i want to see is no more slouch 4 speed automatics paired with serious sport vehicles ... and drop the pushrod V6 series . Refine the freakin powertrain on everything not Cadillac to meet or exceed import buyers expectations and the brands can stay. :crying2:

I like their V6 3800 series with the supercharger. They're quick and reliable in my opinion.

A mechanic I know told me the same as stated in this post: either Buick or Pontiac will go...I also understand that when Olds was axed, Buick was on the short list then...I trust this mechanic as he has been with GM for around ten years and considering the source, I would say he's been right thus far. He is currently employed by Hummer :thumbsup:

In a nut shell, I just simply like the GTO. I realize what the body is, but I just like it.

Buick on the other hand has nothing worth screaming about. Their cars have the same basic engine and they all look too similar in an un-exciting fashion. They have no real performance cars, and haven't sice the GNX back in the '80's. Since they were on the short list then, it would be of no suprise that they get the axe this time around.

Oldsmobile (R.I.P.) was a decent brand in their hayday, but their downsizing of models put them behind the competition. I think they were supposed to compete with the Japanese brands and if that was the case, the plan backfired. Cadillac probably wasn't too far from the chopping block in the mid-to-late '80's when they had their downsized cars too...The Northstar is what saved them as well as the introduction of the '92 STS with the 4.9 liter...I think that is the one that recieved the "car of the year" awards from a couple of publications...

Night Wolf
03-23-05, 06:48 PM
This is what I don't get....

Silverado vs. Sierra

Jimmy vs. Blazer

TrailBlazer vs. Envoy

etc....

GMC trucks are nothing more then rebadged Chevys with different front ends.... vice versa... what is up with that?!?!? and either way, one of them should be cut....

I still do not forgive them for killing Oldsmobile... it was a major shame... they should have dumped Buick... I think just for that, I will always own an Oldsmobile :)

I can't see them dumping Pontiac... too many good cars and future plans.

Chevy... duh, yeah right if anything happens to that

Buick... currently the "old person" car.. much like Cadillac was up until 5 years ago... I think they are going to keep playing that role... but honestly... what else? I personally like the styling of the cars, but they really don['t fill the section between Chevy and Cadillac anymore....

one thing I do not agree with.... don't dump good things.... why they would dump the 3800 is beyond me... the engine is such an amazing engine... powerful, efficent, very reliable.... they could easily bump the s/c power up to 300hp... people are doing that with very minor bolt ons... the engine can still live....

While I do not agree with some of the things at Cadillac right now, they are really on the right track... lots of things are working out as it is.

I still think Ford has the best idea all along.... Ford... cars, econo buckets, sports cars, trucks, SUV's, vans.... everyday vehicles that are well know. Lincoln as the luxury brand *with a very thin selection* you want a traditonal luxury car? you get a Town Car. You want a more sporty car? the LS. Want a luxury truck? then the Navigator.... keep it simple and clean. Then Mercury somewhere in between offering some of the luxury of Lincoln with the reliability and cost of Ford... although I personally think Ford coul drop the Merc line and nobody would think twice....

illumina
03-23-05, 06:54 PM
one thing I do not agree with.... don't dump good things.... why they would dump the 3800 is beyond me... the engine is such an amazing engine... powerful, efficent, very reliable.... they could easily bump the s/c power up to 300hp... people are doing that with very minor bolt ons... the engine can still live....

I agree with you dude.

The 3800 is also a cinch to work on. Try working on the 3.6 liter DOHC V6 engines: people will learn to appreciate those low-tech pushrods more and more everyday.

Vesicant
03-23-05, 06:56 PM
I thought the 3800 was great and it always will be. I just dont like the newer pushrod V6's (ex: new 3.5 in malibu). They're trying to put them up against import buyers and assume that they will go for a pushrod V6. Since it is something a so called import buyer is looking for in a car, its loss of sales on GM's part.

DopeStar 156
03-23-05, 07:25 PM
If I had to dump one GM brand it'd be GMC. I really see no reason for them to be around. There aren't even any memorable GMC cars I can think of. Just phase them out. The others I can see serve a purpose. Even Buick. Then once GM's got some money to kick around.... Reintroduce Oldsmobile with three new performance models. Maybe even a Cutlass Supreme retro with two doors and a meaty V8. Yeah.....I'm gonna get a job at GM.

Rolex
03-23-05, 07:29 PM
If I had to dump one GM brand it'd be GMC. I really see no reason for them to be around. There aren't even any memorable GMC cars I can think of.

That's because GMC doesn't make cars, and never has. ;) lol

davesdeville
03-23-05, 08:01 PM
The general consensus was that Pontiac, Buick, and GMC (and Saturn before they introduced the new Sky & Aura), should be cut.

Honestly, the Aura is yet another boring POS and leave the Sky over at Pontiac as the Solstice.

FastSeville666
03-23-05, 08:46 PM
hay dont forget sanoma vs. S10
LOL

Stoneage_Caddy
03-23-05, 08:54 PM
If I had to dump one GM brand it'd be GMC. I really see no reason for them to be around. There aren't even any memorable GMC cars I can think of. .

I happen to be a big fan of this GMC with front wheel drive useing a car engine and tranny (olds toronado stuff):
http://www.gmcmotorhome.com/faq/brochure1a.jpg

Night Wolf
03-23-05, 09:41 PM
yeah.... with the 3800, there are 3 main types of people.... 2 will like the engine....

who dosn't? the people that dislike "old tech" engines and want DOHC, 58 valves and V-Tec..... but coudln't tell a lifter from a valve apart....

then there are the "normal" people... people that drive their cars as cars, take care of them, but don't know much about what makes what work... so they take their car to a shop. These people don't care about pweformance (well, like getting the supercharger) so they would have the NA 3800.... So what they notice is that, this enigne gets great fuel mileage, has lots of power to merge onto highways and pass people, runs good, and dosn't have to go into the shop very often at all.

Then there are people that are into going fast and enjoy working on their own cars.... they love the engine because it is simple, low cost design makes it reliable and a breeze to work on.... and with the s/c it pulls like crazy....

I really think the only reason why GM wants to dump it is because it is an "old" engine.... I personally own a 3800 car, and my next car, if it is going to be a mid size family sedan, will have it. Sadly there are no manuals offered and they are in just that... family sedan cars... I would like it in a sports car (modern day Grand National?) and the Camaro dosn't count, because as much as I love the 3800, I would choose the V8.

things are just laid out so nice on the engine... to change the O2 sensor on the '93 was a royal PITA, and I re-broke one of the things that holds a hose... and it took a long time.... on the Olds? I did it at night, using only the under-hood light and it took literally 10mins form the time I poped the hood... it was easy. Even the water pump... remove the washer fluid/coolant containers (easy) and the whole thing is opened up... I changed the water pump using my $15 tool set from Wal Mart.... I couldn't believe how easy it was.

plus, the engine makes alot of power... especially for a 1989 4 door family car... my father has a '99 Grand Prix GTP lightly modded.... and I gotta say, the power from that thing is insane... and he still gets 21mpg around town and 32-34mpg on the highway..... it is really a great engine, I feel safe, and am proud to know I have the 3800 V6 as it has never, ever let me down. It is also my car with the "worst" maintenace record (I go 5k between oil changes, I don't spend as much time with things as I should etc...), gets lesser quality items (regular oil vs. synthetic.... regular AC plugs vs. Platinum etc...) and sometimes gets driven harder then normal.... but still runs like a champ, and the *only* complaint I have with it is, on a cold winter morning, I gotta keep the starter engauged for a (IMO) longer then normal amount of time.

I don't know why GM came out with the Series III... or atleast the way they did.... power seems the same, and nothing seems changed... I think the Series III should have been: NA = 230hp and S/C = 300hp.... knowing the 3800, the torque would be even higher then the hp numbers...

Atleast my Oldsmobile is in the process of getting its second life coming soon, and I am looking forward to many more miles of driving with the car.

HotRodSaint
03-23-05, 09:53 PM
That's because GMC doesn't make cars, and never has. ;) lol

Is the El Camino a car, or truck? Because that is as close as they got to a car.

DopeStar 156
03-23-05, 10:08 PM
They didn't build the ElCamino, but they made a variation of it. I never knew what it was called.

freefaller07
03-24-05, 01:11 AM
The GMC version of the ElCamino was the Caballero. Who knows what you call those vehicles though. They sit like a car but there heavy duty enough to be a small truck. They actually had a lot of power and some pretty tough suspension. It looks like a low-rider S-10 or Sonoma at best.

davesdeville
03-24-05, 03:41 AM
I happen to be a big fan of this GMC with front wheel drive useing a car engine and tranny (olds toronado stuff):
Image

I'm partial to this particular 530ci, twin turbo fuel injected Cadillac and TH425 powered motorhome.

http://www.500caddy.us/Random/TT%20Cad%20530ci%20Motorhome%20Burnout.jpg
:coolgleam

Stoneage_Caddy
03-24-05, 11:06 AM
I'm partial to this particular 530ci, twin turbo fuel injected Cadillac and TH425 powered motorhome.

http://www.500caddy.us/Random/TT%20Cad%20530ci%20Motorhome%20Burnout.jpg
:coolgleam
ohhh i gotta have one now ..... :bighead:

Vesicant
03-24-05, 11:20 AM
IM sure you'd like the EM-50 Urban Assault Vehicle from the movie Stripes...

Stoneage_Caddy
03-24-05, 12:04 PM
that thing was badass ...ive been looking at GMC Motorhomes for awhile , just dont have the space for one ..but as soon as i do ill have the biggest resto project going ...

Sinister Angel
03-24-05, 12:49 PM
What I don't get is why did GM drop the F-Bodies? Seriously, you want competition with the Mustangs? That's what you had, especially now that Ford's SVT division isn't looking so hot. Well, it seems that way anyhow since I think maybe the next comming of the SVT Cobra *might* be 2006 if I recall. The Corvette is in a different category than the Mustang, now it's (with the new Z06 anyway) looking to be playing around with the Viper, et al.

Oh well, what do I know, I just work on diesels and steam plants :sneaky:

Stoneage_Caddy
03-24-05, 12:53 PM
What I don't get is why did GM drop the F-Bodies? Seriously, you want competition with the Mustangs? That's what you had, especially now that Ford's SVT division isn't looking so hot. Well, it seems that way anyhow since I think maybe the next comming of the SVT Cobra *might* be 2006 if I recall. The Corvette is in a different category than the Mustang, now it's (with the new Z06 anyway) looking to be playing around with the Viper, et al.

Oh well, what do I know, I just work on diesels and steam plants :sneaky:
couldnt sell them ...ford was outselling the f bodys there in the end ..so since they couldnt beat ford they gave up , and freed up more rescources to build SUVS ....see also Caprice/Impala/Roadmaster/Brogham/Custom Cruiser...

but we can crank out them tahoes and suburbans !!!!!

Msilva954
03-24-05, 07:14 PM
I dont think GM would be considering this if they didnt put so much excess into Cadillac.....comon.....if they divided that BILLIONS of dollars more evenly into the real money making brands....then they would possibly be somewhere now......

IMO GM put way too much into Cadillac and never really stated where it all went.....that one platform that underpins all their new cars cannot have cost that much money to produce.....I guess GM just never had anywhere to start.....

When I look at Ford I see how a true auto giant should be run.....I mean look at the D3 platform......

Sure Ford paid a bit for Volvo....but they ended up with a platform basis that would underpin 75% of their new vehicles over the next 10 years from that purchase.....and its a damn good platform at that....then the Euro Focus underpins the S40,Mazda 3, and other various future cars...

Then they have the niche platforms like the RX8 which is basically the new MX5 Miata....the new F150 platform....and the Explorer.....premium platforms such as the Jaguar Aluminum frame which will underpin every new jag except the Xtype......Aston Martin has the new DB9 platform which will underpin every new AM too.....and Land Rover has its own modular frame.......

I know im rambling on but what the hell is GM doing.....they have soo much excess that is sooo dated and they really think they can get away with it....

Just the other day they announce that they are scrapping plans for the future RWD vehicles for Buick and Pontiac/Chevy..........and the reason????......to make room for future SUV's.........GM made the same mistake in 1996 with the discontinuing of the BBody platform.....this thusly ended all GM car development untill lutz came in for Cadillac......now they wanna make the same mistake exspessially when the future seems to be alternitive fueled "wagons" or "crossovers"........

i dunno anymore but the more the years go by the more I see GM going more and more down hill.