: What's Going on at GM?... Brands you would axe...



Playdrv4me
03-21-05, 09:38 PM
SilverCTS came up with an interesting point in the "GM Killing 08' models" thread. Do all these GM brands REALLY need to exist? In a time when they are starting to really worry us with all these RADICAL changes, where would you trim the fat?

If it were up to me? These are the core brands I would leave and trash the rest... (HRS, Stoney and others... really curious about your opinions here)

Cadillac, a proven luxury brand with good potential, a solid selection and a cult-like following.
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Chevrolet, a thoroughly American brand, Ford's primary competition.
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Hummer, with care and close monitoring, Hummer is small enough and serves enough of a purpose (Land Rover, BMW competition) that it can remain profitable.
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GMC, Iffy... but recognized as a solid truck brand.
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Saab, Again, iffy, but serves a niche that for now is healthy and doesnt appear to be declining. The quality of these currently concerns me.

Thats it!

No Pontiac, NO Buick, and No Saturn. Saturn would have been in my list in the past, but now its been destroyed, and a 180 degree turn from what it started out as. Pontiac and Buick resurgence? Nah... those two will turn right back into Chevrolet retreads as usual.

90Brougham350
03-21-05, 09:46 PM
You can dump Buick and please just get rid of Saturn, but you can't dump Pontiac. GM needs a blue-collar performance step-up from Chevrolet. But please please please just nuke Saturn already!

Brian

Playdrv4me
03-21-05, 09:51 PM
Ok, Ill give you that, Pontiac is GM's "Excitement Division", but man, what happened to it? And dont try and tell me the GTO is supposed to be a big deal, cause it aint. I dont consider a rehashed, hell, not even rehashed, REBADGED is more like it Holden product a fair play in the aire of some of the greatest muscle car Pontiacs of the past. I think there is real potential to build up Pontiac if they really wanna go nuts, but if they leave it as it is, it just turns my stomach. Well, except for the Bonnie GXP, its pretty neat.

Randy_W
03-21-05, 09:59 PM
Blend GMC and Chevy truck into one division, cut Buick, Saturn and sell Saab. Give Pontiac some autonomy and watch them blossom.

ben72227
03-21-05, 10:14 PM
Cadillac - Gotta keep it of course, classic american luxury

Chevrolet - arguable the backbone of GM, it ain't goin no where

GMC - needs to be merged/dropped into Chevy since they're all the same truck underneath anyway

Buick - serves no real purpose anymore since Cadillac has started to offer cheaper cars (i.e. CTS) and they are overlapping Buick's price range.

Saturn - i would have said to get rid of Saturn, but since GM is doing a complete revamp on them like they did on cadillac (see the Saturn Sky & Aura) i have to say keep them. They will fill the need of young people who want something a little more upscale than Chevy but can't shell out the dough for a Cadillac.

Pontiac - I'm really liking the '05 GTO even if it is Australian. The rest of the pontiac line though SUCKS. Even the new stuff (G6 i think its called) is still unrefined and ugly looking compared to Pontiac's competition.

Saab - It's GM's european division, so we have to keep it...

Hummer - Even though i absolutely despise these Tahoes in disguise, people seem to be liking them (not for long though, when gas prices hit $3 a gallon:sneaky: you won't see many of these bad boys anymore)

So there you have it, Gm needs to get rid of Buick, Pontiac, and GMC...IMO of course

SilverCTS
03-21-05, 10:29 PM
I think most of us are on the same page.

Cadillac obviously stays and will be the luxury division (of course). They are finally giving Mercedes and BMW some serious competition.

Chevy stays.

Hummer and Saab stay (why not?).

GMC will be the truck division (Chevy will sell cars only).

Take the best of Buick and Pontiac and sell them under the Chevy brand.

Saturn????? I could either way, but maybe this should stay since it is relatively new.

danbuc
03-21-05, 10:38 PM
Saab isn't GM's European division, Opel and Vauxhall are. Saab is a swedish company, or at least it used to be.

Why do you think the Catera is just a rebadged Opel. It's just like Ford and Merkur.

Elvis
03-21-05, 11:16 PM
I found this hard to believe, but it's true--Chevy truck people will NOT buy a GMC. They want that damn bowtie on the grille.

Pontiac lost its reason to live when it axed the Firebird, but added the Sunfire, Vibe, and Aztec. Take the Pontiac models worth saving and put a bowtie on them.

I think Buick should've been dropped, but Oldsmobile should've been allowed to continue with the same models. The brand name had more history.

GMC can go, the only reason it existed was to give Buick/Pontiac/Olds dealers a truck line.

Saturn has a niche, but when GM buys Honda it won't be necessary anymore.

So that leaves us with:

Cadillac: no change, gradually absorbs Saab
Chevy swallows Pontiac, GMC, and Hummer
Oldsmobile comes back from the dead and eats Buick,
GM buys Honda, eliminates Saturn

Ralph
03-21-05, 11:18 PM
I think the problem with GM is that they always build too many factories, period! They make too many cars, can't sell them, and end up laying off thousands of workers. There isn't even a need to axe any division, just don't make an overabundance, and don't build so many factories that end up getting closed.

After the death of Olds, Buick is the affordable luxury division imo. Pontiac?? Well since they got rid of the Trans Am, to me, THAT was the loss of their performance image right there. There was talk around 1990 of Pontiac being axed in HPP magazine!

I like the Saturn Ion, and with the pending rising permeanant fuel costs because of China and India's booming economy and their buying cars now in record number, Saturn may fill a niche for cost effective fuel efficient vehicles. I would have one over a Cavalier or a Pursuit simply because I need not worry about rust or door dings, my two biggest gripes. Since I'm paying $1.09 per litre I will consider one if they still make them in the future.

I suppose they don't NEED GMC trucks, just put a Chevy bowtie on it and be done with it if need be.

Cadillac is a GM icon and top of the food chain. It's not going anywhere.

Just my take.

Ralph
03-21-05, 11:21 PM
I found this hard to believe, but it's true--Chevy truck people will NOT buy a GMC. They want that damn bowtie on the grille.

Pontiac lost its reason to live when it axed the Firebird, but added the Sunfire, Vibe, and Aztec. Take the Pontiac models worth saving and put a bowtie on them.

I think Buick should've been dropped, but Oldsmobile should've been allowed to continue with the same models. The brand name had more history.

GMC can go, the only reason it existed was to give Buick/Pontiac/Olds dealers a truck line.

Saturn has a niche, but when GM buys Honda it won't be necessary anymore.

Geez Elvis, again we are thinking 90% alike!!! We even used the word "niche" when it came to Saturn!! :eek:

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=8324&sid=173&n=156

From this link I would like to know what RWD they are axing..

Stoneage_Caddy
03-22-05, 12:12 AM
Cadillac , Becomes the Permire vehicle group , very expensive stuff , 68k and up , CTS,STS find new homes below , DTS become the entery level cadillic on a rear drive chassis and starts at 68k , top line cars in the mid 150s

Buick gets new name and gets, , Hummer ,low level cadillacs..leads the way at GM for technology , will be the first division at GM to go hybrid on each model ...(incleuding hummer imagine how kickass there 4wd will be)

Chevrolet , stays the same , cars all dropped and redone , corvette and pickus will be the only vehucles with pushrods , everything else will get modern DOHC engines , money will be spent on fighting the imports on all fronts , and not dump all delvopment in a "high content pushrod v6" or some BS ..gets retail GMC ,pontiac and a wholly owned subaru ..no more half ass attempts for family cars , focus shifts from gas hogging trucks and towards makeing the the family car appealing ....back tot he days of the early 60s when chevy made the best selling car ...

Saturn - Stays put , becomes the "Scion" of GM small cars and niche vehicles only only...variants on Delta and Kappa cars ...exclusivity , but done with a budget ....low production , great pricing and the unique satrun way of doing busniess ....give the kids what they want , performace and a good price , on a great quailty prouct

SAAB Given back to its people , the car has lost its soul , GM should be ashamed of itself for doing that to them ...

GMC - commerical vehicles , gets isuzu trucks too . no more isuzu reatil veichles , just commerical type ...

no more platform shareing , each division has its own platforms , no more inernal compeition ....each division given its own budget for delopmen of new product ..no more table scarps for each division , giving them a half chassis and says "here, sell this"

no one ever makes my beloved corvette share its platform with anything ever again ....damn GM

Playdrv4me
03-22-05, 12:38 AM
Elvis were you joking when you said GM would buy Honda? I havent heard that but that is certainly interesting news!

On the note of platform sharing. While I would like to see this toned down significantly, the era of the platform based vehicle is here to stay. All the manufacturers do it, from Honda, to Ford to Volvo. Its very easy to do and highly profitable business to create a good platform. So that is something I kind of figured would stick around no matter what.

illumina
03-22-05, 12:54 AM
Got to stay with Cadillac of course. They didn't spend all of their cash to just go away, and the consumer loves the new look. The Cadillac is also a very nice Euro and Japanese challenger.

Chevy has lost credibility in my opinion. They should stay, but they need to concoct some serious competition for the Mustang GT and so on...The Impala SS and Monte Carlo SS models are nice, but are they really going to be GT competition when they recieve the V8? The front wheel drive/automatic tranny platform sorta tells me no.

Saab...Good bye...GM has Euro rival beaters by the name of Cadillac and it is begining to show. Saab as competition to Volvo? Volvo needs to go away from Ford too...

Saturn has a decent lineup but their cars are something that I simply wouldn't waste a dime on...Good bye...

GMC makes no sense to me. Thay're nothing but disguised Chevys: just take the mask off and be done with it.

Pontiac is something that must stay. I like the Bonneville GXP and the upcoming Grand Prix GXP with the 5.3 liter 8. The G6 is a ladies car which really doesn't appeal to me, but the others do. I like the GTO...End of discussion. The Aztek and ones like it need to burn. The rest should stay.

Hummer: I like them big old rides...Reminds me of the days when I was in the Army. Call it a sentimental thing, I just like them. And from what my mechanic friend who works at Hummer says, they aren't going anywhere.

Does Buick realy make any sense nowadays? It's now the "old peoples car" that Cadillac used to be. They have no real performance and their lineup is somewhat bland...From what I've heard, they're not far from becoming what Oldsmobile has: gone.

Summay:

Buick; GMC; Saab; Saturn: Come up with something I and everyone else likes and you're more than welcome to stick around...Get to work or... :wave:

Pontiac; Chevy: You guys need to have better competition against your rivals and get rid of some of the ugly cars (Aztek, etc...).

Cadillac; Hummer: Good job in my opinion.

90Brougham350
03-22-05, 01:24 AM
OK, Saturn may fill a sort of niche, but come on! Am I the only one here who thinks Saturns are the epitomy of the douchebag ride? Come on! It's a Saturn for God's sake! They actually have a car called the Ion and that's ok? Good God, look at those things! I don't care how much of a niche they fill! I hate 'em! I F***ing hate the f***ing things! :rant2::banghead: Good thread so far!

Brian

Ralph
03-22-05, 01:31 AM
OK, Saturn may fill a sort of niche, but come on! Am I the only one here who thinks Saturns are the epitomy of the douchebag ride? Come on! It's a Saturn for God's sake! They actually have a car called the Ion and that's ok? Good God, look at those things! I don't care how much of a niche they fill! I hate 'em! I F***ing hate the f***ing things! :rant2::banghead: Good thread so far!

Brian

Brian, have you driven an Ion?? I couldn't believe how smooth and quiet they were even up to 140 kph!! And with such a light body and the Cavalier's 140 hp engine it moved just fine while having a 5 star crash safety rating!! Like the Saturn dealer told me, you don't compare a Saturn to other domestics, you compare them to Honda and Toyota.

My only problem is that they generally won't haggle on price but I got $1,000 dollars off anytime I buy in the furture. :shhh: :sneaky

I like the styling, to me, they look like a mini-Altima. :D

Stoneage_Caddy
03-22-05, 01:41 AM
OK, Saturn may fill a sort of niche, but come on! Am I the only one here who thinks Saturns are the epitomy of the douchebag ride? Come on! It's a Saturn for God's sake! They actually have a car called the Ion and that's ok? Good God, look at those things! I don't care how much of a niche they fill! I hate 'em! I F***ing hate the f***ing things! :rant2::banghead: Good thread so far!

Brian
DUDE ..its not about the cars with them ...its everything else , slaes service the whole expernce is very UN-GM ....its pretty neat , and when they first came out the cars were pretty neat ....

saturn gots its bad rap when GM pulled back funding around 1995 , they were forced to rehash the first cars and screw with them , get odd ball cars from eurpoe and the like , they were never allowed to grow any , so they produced VERY boring stuff because of it ..the most exicting car they built in that period was a 3 door coupe ...

saturn is a fine exaple of why "the board" at GM need to clean house , magament top to bottom has been screwing the pooch since early 1971

the board should have been outraged dureing the fiat debacle but went back to sleep , looseing billions and unable to move product outside trailblazers escalades and tahoes .....

COME ON WAKE UP GM !!!!

airbalancer
03-22-05, 07:25 AM
GMC out sells Chevy in Canada, the Chevy front end just bites.
All of Chevy design bites, boring,period.
Saturn with the Sky and Aura will surprise people.
Hummer bites.Drop it
If GM stop being so cheap, eg. in a SLE pickup power seat is only on the drive side.
Drop price and no rebates.

HotRodSaint
03-22-05, 11:09 AM
I'd keep Chevy, Pontiac and Buick. Saturn should have been folded into Oldsmobile in the first place. But since it's mission is essentially the same as Chevies, they should be folded into Chevy now.

I'd merge GMC and Hummer as a business unit, while maintaining both brands. GMC should have some of it's own unique products. Cadillac took some of GMC's market share.

Cadillac shouldn't have every Chevy truck offered either. But Cadillac could pick and choose any global GM car platform they want. While the others brands would be limited to specific platforms, so as not to overlap in product categories.

Holden and Opel/Vauxhal should be given charge of certain platforms with US participation. For example, Holden would be responsible for mid-size RWD, Opel would be in charge of mid-size FWD/AWD.

2-seat sports cars. Corvette remains in Chevy, and the Cadillac XLR should remain no matter how poorly it does. GM only needs one 2-seat 4-cylinder sports car, and that should go to Pontiac, not Saturn. Buick does not need a 2-seat sports car for it's success. It needs a desirable sedan instead.

2-door sport coupe. Here is where I'd seperate Chevy and Pontiac with technology. A new Camaro would be a bare bones low-tech RWD muscle car with a V8. While not having more HP than the Camaro, the next Firebird would have more technology, such IRS, AWD and maybe even a twin-turbo V6.

The Chevy brand would be basic, well engineered and handsomely styled transportation.

Pontiac would be the lower volume, higher tech versions of the Chevies. No sub-compacts.

Buick would be more luxurious versions with some even using Pontiacs technology. No compacts.

There are so many ways to fix it. It is almost a joke that GM has been broken for most of my adult life.

We can be assured of one thing. GM will hand Toyota the #1 automaker spot in the next 10 years. And Toyota has some of the most boring looking car's ever conceived by man.

But Toyota has studied their business partner GM. GM seems to think that it's role with Toyota was that of teacher and not student. And it's that corporate arrogance that has caused almost all of it's problems.

c5 rv
03-22-05, 12:51 PM
If the truck market shrinks dramatically due to fuel costs, I think the GMC brand will be eliminated, at least in the U.S. Non-Chevy GM dealers already have a mid-size SUV and/or a minivan in their other brand lineups.

Saturn won't go away because supposedly a large number of Saturn buyers won't buy anything else from GM. It was designed to be a conquest brand to face off against the Japanese.

I think GM felt they needed to kill one of their two near-luxury brands: Olds or Buick. Personally, I was more attached to Olds. I'll bet the PGA marketing agreements and the growth in the fan popularity of Tiger Woods and golf secured Buick over Olds in the GM boardroom. Maybe near-luxury brands are an endangered species (Volvo, Saab, Buick, Mercury). However, they can come back, as evidenced by Infiniti.

Chevy could expand its SS offerings (as it is doing) and have a performance specialty line that could replace Pontiac. (Give the Vibe to Saturn, the GTO to Buick, and please, please kill the Aztek).

Keep Subaru as a hidden GM partial-ownership brand.

Jesda
03-22-05, 01:28 PM
Sell off the Saab brand, but retain most of the factories for GM to produce Cadillacs, Vauxhalls, and Opels for Europe.

Kill Saturn, replace it with Oldsmobile or Buick. Saturn should die because Roger Smith sucks. Who the hell aspires to own a Saturn? The homeless?

GM should treat Subaru the way Ford treats Mazda, sharing engineering and technology.

Hummer could go up against Land Rover and Jeep with a little more focus and a wider product range.

RobertCTS
03-22-05, 01:49 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong and I'm sure you will:) I read where there is to be a Hummer 3. Size being reduced once again. I know many of the people I've talked two complain about the enormity of the Hummer and it's rated as a gas gussler. I think Detroit does see the waning of the sport utes and if the Hummer is to survive it will have to down size or become a very small niche car.

I did see a interesting Hummer the other day with these license tags.

Playdrv4me
03-22-05, 01:53 PM
Ahh yes, I was wondering who would bring up Subaru... As far as Im concerned, Subaru is doin just fine... Id rather not expose them to the GM "STD".

90Brougham350
03-22-05, 02:17 PM
There are so many ways to fix it. It is almost a joke that GM has been broken for most of my adult life.

We can be assured of one thing. GM will hand Toyota the #1 automaker spot in the next 10 years. And Toyota has some of the most boring looking car's ever conceived by man.

But Toyota has studied their business partner GM. GM seems to think that it's role with Toyota was that of teacher and not student. And it's that corporate arrogance that has caused almost all of it's problems.

I think HRS gets the award for best-said!

90Brougham350
03-22-05, 02:25 PM
Brian, have you driven an Ion?? I couldn't believe how smooth and quiet they were even up to 140 kph!! And with such a light body and the Cavalier's 140 hp engine it moved just fine while having a 5 star crash safety rating!! Like the Saturn dealer told me, you don't compare a Saturn to other domestics, you compare them to Honda and Toyota.

My only problem is that they generally won't haggle on price but I got $1,000 dollars off anytime I buy in the furture. :shhh: :sneaky

I like the styling, to me, they look like a mini-Altima. :D

Ralph, you and I might agree on some things, but I totally disagree on this one. I'll be completely honest, I've never driven an Ion. 2 Reasons; 1. It's called an Ion, and it's made by Saturn, and 2. What is the point of entertaining even a test drive on a vehicle that looks that hideous! Look at those rims for Christ's sake! That thing gets a 9.4 on the ugometer! But back to the top on hand, I don't think GM fully realizes the impact poor decisions from the past 3 decades have made on the entire company. True, quality is definately improving, but looking at the way things are going entire company-wise, I'm amazed Toyota hasn't claimed #1 already! The 3 V's are great, but they can't carry the weight of an entire company. GM doesn't have much in the way of knock-your socks off material, but who knows what may come in the future. I mean, 15 years ago, did any of us expect to see the V's? Then again, did any of us expect Olds to be gone as well?

Brian

RobertCTS
03-22-05, 03:01 PM
Ralph, you and I might agree on some things, but I totally disagree on this one. I'll be completely honest, I've never driven an Ion. 2 Reasons; 1. It's called an Ion, and it's made by Saturn, and 2. What is the point of entertaining even a test drive on a vehicle that looks that hideous! Look at those rims for Christ's sake! That thing gets a 9.4 on the ugometer! But back to the top on hand, I don't think GM fully realizes the impact poor decisions from the past 3 decades have made on the entire company. True, quality is definately improving, but looking at the way things are going entire company-wise, I'm amazed Toyota hasn't claimed #1 already! The 3 V's are great, but they can't carry the weight of an entire company. GM doesn't have much in the way of knock-your socks off material, but who knows what may come in the future. I mean, 15 years ago, did any of us expect to see the V's? Then again, did any of us expect Olds to be gone as well?
Brian

Brian,
If you think the Ion is hideous simply move on to the new Scion man.:D

Vesicant
03-22-05, 03:02 PM
GMC- Do trucks/suvs/vans only

Chevrolet - Cars/minivans only - Total model line redesign (have better import killers too)

Totally redesign Pontiacs entire line .. make them like what Oldsmobile use to be but using Pontiac's "excitement".

Hummer - Reel in LandRover and others!

Cadillac - Keep giving it more funding.

GM - Stop making pushrod V6's. Pushrod V8's can stay. No more 4 speed transmissions and reinvented old vehicle platforms.

Playdrv4me
03-22-05, 03:18 PM
How bout taking Tiger Woods' GM paycheck and putting into ohh I dunno... VEHICLE DEVELOPMENT instead?? The whole Tiger Woods/Buick thing is completely contradictory IMO, and I KNOW he doesnt actually possibly like ANY of those cars.

Perhaps if we werent devoting 49 percent of the company profit to paying him, we could come up with something a little more original than the frieken LaCrosse...

Playdrv4me
03-22-05, 03:22 PM
OMG... THAT WAS crazy... I was just listening to Rush in the background (remember I dont make a point to usually really listen to him other than for background noise at my workstation), and he just berated the Pontiac G6 (a car I actually kind of like thank you very much)!! I just about broke out laughing AS I was typing my previous comment.

Apparently, the new G6 is not even selling half as well as the Grand Am was (a 28k top end sticker does not help), and now rebates and incentives have been heavily dabbled on to get the car selling at even a modest level...

Im tellin ya... :tisk:

Ralph
03-22-05, 03:56 PM
Look at those rims for Christ's sake! That thing gets a 9.4 on the ugometer!


And those are the nice rims. you should see the terrible Ion 1 & Ion 2 rims!! :drinker

I think more Americans should be proud of that little company. Spring Hill Tenn. right?? I mean they took this company from nothing in 1990 to matching Honda in quality and reliability within 10 years! If someone ever says Americans can't build good cars, Saturn is the first example I think of. Also unique is their philosophy where someone working on the line can approach the engineer and say "this bolt doesn't fit properly." On any other assembly line try doing that. Saturn actually haults production until that little bolt fits properly and that's why they have good reliability.

I'll take one in silver please. :thumbsup: Beauty is subjective of course, but imo it's no worse than a Dodge SX 2.0 or a Civic.

Elvis
03-22-05, 05:39 PM
Elvis were you joking when you said GM would buy Honda? I havent heard that but that is certainly interesting news!


It's a wet dream I have from time to time. :drinker



Geez Elvis, again we are thinking 90% alike!!! We even used the word "niche" when it came to Saturn!!

Stop it. You're scaring me. :suspense: ;)

Skuuter
03-22-05, 06:07 PM
You can dump Buick and please just get rid of Saturn, but you can't dump Pontiac. GM needs a blue-collar performance step-up from Chevrolet. But please please please just nuke Saturn already!

Brian

I agree with this along with dumping Hummer. Hummers are going to get a lot less popular with gas prices rising steadily.

Cadillac, Pontiac, Chevy & Saab are enough of a market spread. I don't understand the pont of GMC trucks, either.

Whatever happened to the notion of "just in time" manufacturing? I think GM would be much better off if they built only half of what they expect to sell and then start the lines up when inventory is at 20 - 30 days. And yes, they have way too many factories and employees for the 25-27% market share.

davesdeville
03-22-05, 06:58 PM
OK, Saturn may fill a sort of niche, but come on! Am I the only one here who thinks Saturns are the epitomy of the douchebag ride? Come on! It's a Saturn for God's sake! They actually have a car called the Ion and that's ok? Good God, look at those things! I don't care how much of a niche they fill! I hate 'em! I F***ing hate the f***ing things! :rant2::banghead: Good thread so far!

Brian

That's what I'm talking about. Axe the hell out of Saturn. Kill Kill Kill. They are the epitomy of cheap douchebag rides.

Kill Pontiac, sorry I kinda like Pontiac but it overlaps with too many other models. Their small and midsizers can be taken care of by Chevy, the Bonneville and GTO market segments can be covered by Buick.

GMC should either do all the trucks and SUVs that GM makes or only commercial vehicles. Pick one dammit.

Axe Saab too while we're at it, or sell it or get the hell rid of that hole in the ground where GM pours money. Saab has no image and GM can't afford to build it one like it built up Cadillacs.

Buick can still be the Lexus fighter, if it can compete in quality with them and then add the Bonneville and GTO market segments it can have some cars with balls too which Lexus lacks.

Leave Cadillac alone except drop the 3.2 CTS, move the 3.6 a bit upscale and sell the BLS here too with a coupe form and that 250hp TT2.8.

RobertCTS
03-22-05, 07:32 PM
I'm glad I'm not near davesdeville with that axe! He's out of control! Show him the wood pile, please!!!

Ralph
03-22-05, 07:40 PM
That's what I'm talking about. Axe the hell out of Saturn. Kill Kill Kill.


Ladies and gentlemen, another person whose never drove one. :rolleyes2 In the future GM will have to compete with the likes of Honda and Toyota, plus all those better quality Korean cars they are now making and Saturn is the only hope.

And you call me violent Dave! :eek:

I'd love to hear from someone who has drove one.

Kev
03-22-05, 07:46 PM
Hey, I drove one of those little Saturn sport coupes once. I don't remember what they call it. I was used to driving my Mustang LX 5.0 so, needless to say I was not highly impressed. It felt horribly guttless and the mileage was not that much higher then what I was getting in my 5.0. It seemed cheap and light, but at least it was really slow!

Oh well.....

Ralph
03-22-05, 07:55 PM
Hey, I drove one of those little Saturn sport coupes once. I don't remember what they call it. I was used to driving my Mustang LX 5.0 so, needless to say I was not highly impressed. It felt horribly guttless and the mileage was not that much higher then what I was getting in my 5.0. It seemed cheap and light, but at least it was really slow!

Oh well.....

Almost anything is gutless campared to a 5.0 Mustang. You want guttless, drive a Civic LX w/o the Vtek engine!!! I couldn't believe it when I drove the Honda, you floor it and you think you might have accidentally hit the brake! It's like NOTHING happened! The Ion is a world better and I would dare say felt as fast as our well maintained V6 Pontiac!

Sidenote: There is a wrecked green Saturn coupe with the back door that suicides in front of our Saturn dealership for display purposes of safety and how well they are built. Apparently the lady driving it fell asleep one night on the highway, veered into the ditch and hit a telephone pole sideways at 70 kph! She walked away and you can still open the doors! Solid little car and I would still own one over a Honda if I had the choice.

I wouldn't mind a Ion Redline with 250 hp! They were built to shut down Ricers and fight the SRT-4. Last I heard the SRT is still a little faster. Or the Redline engine in the basic 4 door should be an option.

With gas being more expensive here than in the U.S., I'm glad GM makes a car like this for those who would rather not drive Japanese.

Kev
03-22-05, 08:05 PM
Talk about 'Guttless Wonders' I test drove a Geo Metro before I bought the Stang. Three lunger! What a piece of ......... Oh, excuse me! Sure glad I passed on that one!

davesdeville
03-22-05, 08:20 PM
Ladies and gentlemen, another person whose never drove one. :rolleyes2 In the future GM will have to compete with the likes of Honda and Toyota, plus all those better quality Korean cars they are now making and Saturn is the only hope.

And you call me violent Dave! :eek:

I'd love to hear from someone who has drove one.

Ralph you're getting on my nerves. My friend owns one and I have driven it and ridden in it a lot. And....

Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill


And BTW all I wanted to axe was Saturn, Pontiac and Saab.

90Brougham350
03-22-05, 09:17 PM
And doesn't the Ion have the guage pod in the middle? Or is that some other horrid bastard creation from Saturn? Come on! The pod belongs in front of my eyes! I don't want to appear to other drivers to be having a conversation with my glove box as they drive by! If this is the case, it's getting bumped up to 9.7 on the ugometer!

Brian

Ralph
03-22-05, 09:20 PM
And doesn't the Ion have the guage pod in the middle? Or is that some other horrid bastard creation from Saturn? Come on! The pod belongs in front of my eyes! I don't want to appear to other drivers to be having a conversation with my glove box as they drive by! If this is the case, it's getting bumped up to 9.7 on the ugometer!

Brian

I love that feature!! It allows for a much smaller steering wheel (electric steering that doesn't drain power from the engine) and took me no time to get used to. Fun car, just drive one. ;) Better yet, drive the Redline. :thumbsup:

Sooner or later we'll all be in cars this size anyway.

Playdrv4me
03-22-05, 09:33 PM
You aint winnin this one Ralphie my dear friend... Saturn needs the axe like I need a date with Michelle up there. I agree that up until about 1995 there was something special about Saturn, but when it went south it really went. First came the long runs without product updates, then the L200 disaster, then they started cross infusing platforms from other brands and came up with that abhorrent Ion (ELECTRIC STEERING, NOT A GOOD THING DUDE!), and finally? Now its just another GM Marketing arm with orphaned pretty dealerships. In the beginning everything was good, the cars were never up there with Honda or Toyota by the way, but they were a solid value for the money, the prices were no haggle, and the sales experience was at Lexus levels. But now even repeat Saturn buyers claim the brand has abandoned what it was once about, and they are looking elsewhere. The Saturn VUE Redline is probably the last and only product I would consider from them, but then, the Equinox LT looks better, and comes off the same platform save for the engine.

Kev
03-22-05, 09:40 PM
I love that feature!! It allows for a much smaller steering wheel (electric steering that doesn't drain power from the engine) and took me no time to get used to. Fun car, just drive one. ;) Better yet, drive the Redline. :thumbsup:

Sooner or later we'll all be in cars this size anyway.Aw, GEEZ! Next thing ya know they're gonna put the wheel on the right hand side or some stupid thing like that! :rant2:

Looks like poor Ralphie's on the ropes with this one! :p

Ralph
03-22-05, 09:41 PM
[QUOTE=Playdrv4me]You aint winnin this one Ralphie my dear friend.. QUOTE]

I know! :helpless: :crying:

I still like them though. Over on the Saturn forums a couple years ago there was fear they would be axed but the owners couldn't believe it because they are such good cars! It's a sad state of affairs when more Americans would rather buy a Civic than their own homegrown product imo. So now there are 2 cars I hope I get to own nefore they axe them, an Ion for a daily driver, and an XLR. I wish that with all the salt they put on our roads that my Cadillac had the plastic dent free panals because then I wouldn't care so much. It's worth owning just for the hasstle of arseholes who won't think twice about dinging your doors in a crowded parking lot. The front fenders on my Caddy are plastic.

Kev
03-22-05, 09:45 PM
Hey, I bought a car from Saturn. It turned out to be a very good deal and a very good vehichle! It's my '96 Ford Aerostar! :rolleyes: :histeric: :hitstick: :hide:

(sometimes I hate these little smilies! they keep movin on me and it's like shootin craps, you never know what you're gonna end up with! I wonder if Sal did that on purpose? Naw....maybe? ..........)

ben72227
03-22-05, 09:51 PM
I think Saturn will be finding it's niche with these new cars; the Sky and Aura. I think that GM's best bet for Saturn would be to make it into upscale cars for people like recent college grads. and "hip" people in their 20s. Sort of like a cheaper cadillac, that was more sporty but yet refined.

IMO, GM should make Pontiac a sports car division - keep the GTO, bring back the Firebird & the Judge. Update the Grand Prix and Grand Am so that they're sporty looking instead of bland, generic copy cats of each other. Drop the G6, Sunfire, Montana, and the GOD AWFUL Aztek or make them into Chevy products. Keep the vibe since the kids seem to like it and make the Bonneville sporty by making the GXP version the base model.

BUICK, oh man. Drop the SUVs and that minivan, the Terraza. Make the rest of the line a bit more...inspiring...

GMC should be scrapped and just let Chevy make all of the trucks/SUVs for GM with the exception that each line could have one SUV - Pontiac (Vibe), Cadillac (Escalade), Hummer, etc. If they do keep GMC, make it so that they just do commercial vehicles.

Kev
03-22-05, 09:59 PM
The only plastic car that I know of that is worth owning is the Vette.

Just my opinion.

Stoneage_Caddy
03-22-05, 10:01 PM
I love that feature!! It allows for a much smaller steering wheel (electric steering that doesn't drain power from the engine) and took me no time to get used to. Fun car, just drive one. ;) Better yet, drive the Redline. :thumbsup:

Sooner or later we'll all be in cars this size anyway.
I disagree with all of the above...

The center mounted gauges bug me ...you know how hard it is to nail redline when you have to look right to find the tiny ass tacho . the exterior is fine ...the interior sucks , the car ISNT A SATURN....

When saturn began you had no clue it was a GM ..unless you knew cars like we do ....Saturn had its own cars , engines , engineering , facotrys ..everything was unique to saturn...a division/company that had its roots to early 1985 , there first cars were in the late 80s , all prototypes ,chevy specturms with the sautrn 1.9 engines ...no one knew what was going on ....by 1991 the first cars came out ...everything was unique to the satrun and its ideas , even how the engine was casted ..the product was very high quality , in fact onyl today do i see pattern issues on the early saturn cars ...they burn oil ...but after almost 20 years out there in the real world on a high revving 1.9 thats doing pretty good ...

it worked , but as the buyers grew saturn didnt , untill it was way to late ..why ? GM realized the idea worked , and decided to incoroate there ideas in all of GM ...they tookt he wrong ideas and left saturn strapped for cash ....saturn asked for cash to devlop there own mid size car ...and like a middle child they gave saturn a slow selling front drive european sedan and said "here sell this"

look at history , no "hand me down" platform ever became the best selling car in america ...the toyota camry was its own car to start with , variants came off the camry chassis ....the ford tarus outsold the merc sable ....the 1963 Chevy Impala outsold its sister cars ...the only time i know of that a sister car outsold the orignal was the early 80s olds cutlass , and the cars origins are still sketchy

Satrun was starved , and forced to stray from its roots ....one of countles mistakes GM made that will eventially kill them ...or get them bought by Toyota ...and become a trim level on a highlander

Stoneage_Caddy
03-22-05, 10:06 PM
BTW eletric powersteering sucks ...our malibu has it ..not something fun to live with when it jerks the wheel out of your hands at 70mph ....something the tried and true sagninaw hydrolic system just dont do to you , predictable reliable and easy to fix ....why do they think they can come up with something beatter ...

wanna remove the parasetic loss fromt he engine ..power the pump by an eletric motor...not the steering collum ...

Ralph
03-22-05, 10:08 PM
I disagree with all of the above...

The center mounted gauges bug me ...you know how hard it is to nail redline when you have to look right to find the tiny ass tacho

For me, at first I found myself looking down through the steering wheel and had to remember to look right instead. It took no more effort on my part to look to the right, than downward. It's just something you get used to. For larger people, a smaller steering wheel can be an advantage. I fit nicely and I'm 5'11" 180 lbs.

The only other can that i know of that has center mounted gauges is the toyota Echo, now that's a piece of Crap. The Ion also has a huge for the class trunk size at 14 cubic feet.

I wouldn't have fears of buying one today if they went belly up because the engine can be fixed at any Chevy dealership.

Stoneage_Caddy
03-22-05, 10:15 PM
For me, at first I found myself looking down through the steering wheel and had to remember to look right instead. It took no more effort on my part to look to the right, than downward. It's just something you get used to. For larger people, a smaller steering wheel can be an advantage. I fit nicely and I'm 5'11" 180 lbs.

The only other can that i know of that has center mounted gauges is the toyota Echo, now that's a piece of Crap. The Ion also has a huge for the class trunk size at 14 cubic feet.

I wouldn't have fears of buying one today if they went belly up because the engine can be fixed at any Chevy dealership.
i do like how they mounted the battery in the trunk(outside the fact hydrogen vapor in the same airspace as the humans) and how the oil filter is in there ...i dont like how you have ot find the worlds strongest man to twist the tool to get the sonofbitch off ...the abilty to change to color of the roof rails is a novel idea ...swatch should sue them ....

Echos are fast ass cars ...when pushed off a cliff ....which is all there good for , to damn small to use as a boat anchor

and who builds a car with a damned beam axel out back ? oh wait GM ....bastards

illumina
03-22-05, 10:44 PM
Brian,
If you think the Ion is hideous simply move on to the new Scion man.:D

I have an even better idea...Introducing the all new Chevy "Box."

"Box" will incorporate new fetures not commonly found in other automobiles, such as:

Large stackable storage space,
Economically small,
Fuel milage is nice: no more wasting recycling paper to conserve energy. You can just drive the energy with the "Box."
Cheap.
You can also fit it into any small space for easy winter storage!

And now we introduce the "Box"...SS models will be coming soon...

Kev
03-22-05, 10:48 PM
I have an even better idea...Introducing the all new Chevy "Box."

"Box" will incorporate new fetures not commonly found in other automobiles, such as:

Large stackable storage space,
Economically small,
Fuel milage is nice: no more wasting recycling paper to conserve energy. You can just drive the energy with the "Box."
Cheap.
You can also fit it into any small space for easy winter storage!

And now we introduce the "Box"...SS models will be coming soon...Oh, sign me up baby! I want one! Yeah! That's the bomb!
:woohoo:

Stoneage_Caddy
03-22-05, 11:04 PM
now ...i bet that cost GM 7.3 billion dollars to devlop that Box's "arcatecture"

there will be several varitants of 70lbs of shit in a 2 pound box ...we will call it ....the J body

Playdrv4me
03-22-05, 11:36 PM
I have an even better idea...Introducing the all new Chevy "Box."

"Box" will incorporate new fetures not commonly found in other automobiles, such as:

Large stackable storage space,
Economically small,
Fuel milage is nice: no more wasting recycling paper to conserve energy. You can just drive the energy with the "Box."
Cheap.
You can also fit it into any small space for easy winter storage!

And now we introduce the "Box"...SS models will be coming soon...

ROTFLMAO! :hysteric:

90Brougham350
03-23-05, 12:03 AM
:cheers: God I love these forums! I spend so damn much time laughing at the shit that goes on around here. And as for the Box SS, do they come with sportier rims?

Brian

Kev
03-23-05, 12:08 AM
:cheers: God I love these forums! I spend so damn much time laughing at the shit that goes on around here. And as for the Box SS, do they come with sportier rims?

BrianYeah, the old Corvette Rallies are making a comeback, didn't you hear?

illumina
03-23-05, 02:40 AM
And introducing the "Box" SS. With this new model, you'll recieve the same exciting features that the original "Box" gave you plus newer, more exciting features...

This new package includes:

Larger wheel/tire package with some "bling bling" for the gangsta kiccin' it in da hood wit da boyz...
New aerodynamic spoiler for the killer acceleraction the "Box" SS will have...
New storage benifits: where you go, so does "Box" SS...
Larger storage area...
And a whole new host of colors: Dark "SS" brown; light "SS" brown; cardboard mold green...
"Box" SS also comes with factory tinted windows for the "gangtsa" in youz...

Enjoy the all new "Box" SS...Coming on a shelf near you...

Kev
03-23-05, 02:45 AM
Ooooh!! I like the Mold Green! It has a kind of iridescence that changes to different cool colors in the sun! Ooh! Ahh! :bouncy:

Ralph
03-23-05, 03:20 AM
I see a striking resemblance to "the Box" and the new Jeep Commander Except the standard sunroof available on the Box and not on the Jeep. Oh, and the color of the tinted windows. Bah, what a jip! :rolleyes2 I prefer dark blue tint. :helpless:

freefaller07
03-23-05, 12:29 PM
I took a lot of time to think this post up but here it is. First off Cadillac stays around of course...classic american luxury. Chevy should stay around... classic american symbol. They are going to make trucks/suvs/vans/family cars/corvette. Then keep pontiac around and push the "driving excitement" motto. They need to offer performance in all engines and cars with a large price range appealing to many buyers. The cheaper cars should offer DOHC engines and the GT models should all be supercharged. These appeal to "rice" era. Then for the other line keep around the push-rod V-8s...ex. the GTO. and bring back the firebird/trans am. These appeal to the "muscle" era. Therefor all these cars will be sporty and fun to drive but not carry the cost of a true sports car. This means getting rid of the aztec,vibe,montana...ect. Keep around buick to offer cheap luxury. The buick will be all full size cars appealing to the older generation. Make the ride on these floaty and the engine a economical V-6. GMC should strictly become commercial and be in charge of all work and extra heavy duty trucks. 1 ton trucks. They will take the whole diseal line as well. Keep Hummer around for people like Arnold who if can fork out the money for one can sure as well pay for the gasoline that goes in one. Sabb I have not heard anything about in the last 2 years. Do we even care about sabb? IMO it should be dropped. Saturn is obiously the line that needs to be dropped. If it absolutly had to stay I would want them producing only hybrids and 100% economy cars to compete for those earth loving people that are buying Hondas.

c5 rv
03-23-05, 12:39 PM
The sneak preview of the box was in a Saturn commercial. GM listened when so many people wrote and called saying that the boxes looked better than the Saturn.

ben72227
03-23-05, 06:57 PM
the boxes looked better than the Saturn.

Come on now:helpless:, they ARE getting better:

http://www.saturn.com/saturn/showroom/future_vehicles/SKY_beauty.jpg
http://www.saturn.com/saturn/showroom/future_vehicles/SKY_stance.jpg

Playdrv4me
03-23-05, 07:24 PM
Ok, so perhaps I have a new wallpaper, but it will take much more than a single vehicle to reinvogorate an entire brand.

c5 rv
03-23-05, 08:13 PM
That Sky is all well and good, but the ad was for the L300. :rolleyes2

davesdeville
03-23-05, 09:03 PM
F the Sky. Leave it as the Pontiac Solstice.

90Brougham350
03-23-05, 10:46 PM
Talk about the biggest ***-mobile around! J*****C****, that thing is just plain crap! I don't care how pretty you think that thing is, it could be Cindy Crawford's face but that Saturn decal on the grill would be a half-inch pimple! And it's called the SKY for God's sake! The has to be the stupidest name ever! Leave it to Saturn to come up with some stupid-ass names! Aura, Sky, Ion, etc! I HATE SATURN! AXE THE BITCHES!

Brian

Night Wolf
03-23-05, 10:49 PM
I have seen it before on another site...

but that is a car I can picture myself buying...... brand new :)

I really like it...

and right now I am in the mood for a small, convertible, manual, sports car :)

Ralph
03-23-05, 10:55 PM
it's called the SKY for God's sake! The has to be the stupidest name ever! Leave it to Saturn to come up with some stupid-ass names! Aura, Sky, Ion, etc! I HATE SATURN! AXE THE BITCHES!

Brian

Aw C'mon, don't be shy. Tell us how you REALLY FEEL.... :D :hide:

ben72227
03-23-05, 10:55 PM
Not to mention that it's only going to cost about 20 grand...

HotRodSaint
03-23-05, 10:57 PM
F the Sky. Leave it as the Pontiac Solstice.

I think the Pontiac looks better too. I just don't like the name, although it's better than Sky.

90Brougham350
03-24-05, 12:32 AM
Aw C'mon, don't be shy. Tell us how you REALLY FEEL.... :D :hide:

For you, Ralph, anything!

I HATE SATURN! AXE THE BITCHES!

davesdeville
03-24-05, 04:37 AM
For you, Ralph, anything!

I HATE SATURN! AXE THE BITCHES!

Hell yeah this guy has the right idea.


The stupid Sky is a rebadged Solstice anyway, it was the Solstice first and now you dumb guys are like "weeewww ohhhhhh the Sky is so like totally awesome. Solstice? What's that?" Give me a break.

RobertCTS
03-24-05, 06:24 AM
Talk about the biggest ***-mobile around! J*****C****, that thing is just plain crap! I don't care how pretty you think that thing is, it could be Cindy Crawford's face but that Saturn decal on the grill would be a half-inch pimple! And it's called the SKY for God's sake! The has to be the stupidest name ever! Leave it to Saturn to come up with some stupid-ass names! Aura, Sky, Ion, etc! I HATE SATURN! AXE THE BITCHES!
Brian

Holy Moly..this is the edited version. I don't recall ever being that upset over a car:shocked2:

Stoneage_Caddy
03-24-05, 12:00 PM
Holy Moly..this is the edited version. I don't recall ever being that upset over a car:shocked2:
sorry guys , took it upon myself to edit that alittle bit ...just trying to keep the peace hope you all dont mind ....

RobertCTS
03-24-05, 12:51 PM
No you were right to edit. The JC was a little overboard IMO.

Playdrv4me
03-24-05, 01:24 PM
Bottom line is, GM Existed just fine before Saturn, and it can probably do just fine without it. I think it would be smarter served to work with its Corporate Partner Toyota and with its part ownership brand Subaru to develop strategies and manufacturing methods that would allow the core Chevrolet brand to bring to market not only affordable, but also quality small cars. By the way Chevy and GM, the Aveo is an abomination, that does NOT count as a car! KABOOM Elimination time for that one too.

If there is a Silver lining here, it would have to be the Cobalt. I think the Cobalt is probably one of the few recent GM introductions that seems to hit every mark and has been praised by the magazines for its very high quality interior materials, varied lineup, good engines and good power. Place maybe one other small affordable car in the lineup somewhere, and then thats it, no more.

Stoneage_Caddy
03-24-05, 01:47 PM
cobalt around here has sold very well , out of the recent intros the mustang has lead everyone else , ive seen more new mustangs than anything outside the cobalt ....

still very few Maxxes ...gee i wonder why ..gms prolly had to buy them all back

gothicaleigh
03-25-05, 02:15 PM
To expand on what I started to say in another thread:

GM has always been it's own worst enemy with divisions that overlap and compete against each other. So which divisions do I think will see the axe?

Personally, I think they could slide the GTO over to Chevy to be the new Camaro and trim the rest of Pontiac.
Why save Buick instead? They have one of the best reliability scores in the industry and they serve to pacify the older customers who feel GM abandoned them when they moved Cadillac up-market.

GM's divisions could be shuffled up like so:
-Chevrolet (leave the trucks to GMC; Most are little more than badge changes anyway)
-Buick (the $3 Billion redesign could revitalize the brand; they have always made good cars, just not interesting cars; this will be the soft luxury brand along the lines of Lincoln)
-Cadillac (keep up what they have been doing; it's one of the few GM brands that is doing successfully)
-GMC (will be the truck division; fold Hummer and the overlapping Chevy trucks into it)

DaeWoo can be replaced with Chevrolet.
Saab has already started producing small european Cadillacs and could be absorbed by that company.
Pontiac can give the GTO to Chevy as the next-gen Camaro; The upcoming Solstice is the Buick Velite; The Bonneville GXP could become a Buick (would work well as a Riviera)and the rest could be dropped.

Saturn... is run differently and I am unsure what could be done with them...

Just some ideas.

RobertCTS
03-25-05, 02:41 PM
If you think Buick needs to stay, I think they need to be more creative. I hated it when the Rivera was axed. I had one and loved it. Planned on buying another but end of story. Then came the Lacrosse concept car. It really looked exciting but all we got was another rebadged boring car. Pontiac has let the "Excitement" drift away. They're out of NASCAR racing now and have very little to offer in the way of performance other than the Australian GTO. It will be interesting to see what GM comes up with.

ben72227
03-25-05, 03:13 PM
Imagine how well Chevy would do if they just reintroduced the Camaro. I mean, look how Ford did with the Mustang. If Chevy could do that with the Camaro, then you would have a lot more people flocking to GM cars.

davesdeville
03-25-05, 05:18 PM
Only if they did it right. They could have another Mustang or another GTO. It's all about the exterior design in that market segment. (Which makes me wonder how older Fox Mustangs ever sold)