: And this is why I'm foaming at the mouth for an M3.



M5eater
08-05-13, 09:35 AM
http://www.bimmerpost.com/tag/f80-m3/

Now, before you run off confused at the meaning here, let me spell it out. Anticipation and information for this car(the M3) is Mt. Everest compared to what we have on the ATS (an ant hill)

There are dozens of videos of these cars flying around, pretty fast, at the ring, and everything between engineer discussions on why they're moving twoard mass-production based engines to sound analysis of the videos just so they can guess what the redline of the car's will be.

The ATS-V by contrast? inuendo's about 'inside sources' from Generic website here aside for all we know this pro type running around could be the V sport, and not the real ATS-V.

Certainly, the M3/M4 are a much more global car than the ATS-V, and certainly there are far more people interested enough in them to do nothing else all day except plant at a single spot and wait around for an M3 proto-type to show up for 30 seconds of footage.

However, what irks me wrong is the lack of at least an acknowledgement from Cadillac about this car. A New M3/M4 is a foregone conclusion, and inevitability that is simply a matter of time, and how. BMW embraces this, and while their actual customer Motorsports involvement is nonexistent(irony at it's finest), they at least know well enough to speak to their customers about future products once in a while, a gesture of thank you for your 80K you've bestowed upon us like a tax every 5 years.

A V version of a good GM sedan is similarly, a foregone conclusion at this point. We all know what's under the gift-wrap by the Christmas tree, you're not fooling or surprising anyone at this point.

Gm certainly knows how to release just enough information to entice a mass influx of pre-orders(c7) or at least yell at the top of their lungs hard enough to generate some attention (ATS webisodes were a tony-tiger grrrrrreat! ) and they certainly care enough about their huge profit generating brand to pull out a whole new platform for them. When it comes right to the icing on the cake though, they totally back off as if they have some kind of jedi-mind powers

'these are not the ATS-V's you're looking for'

I have my own personal thoughts, on the 'why's' that crop up here; mostly revolving around how GM is going to be able to out-gun the F80 with so much technology, expensive materials and super-car parts thrown at it when they're only just now talking about 8 speed automatics.

Why do you think we have next to nothing about the ATS-V?

ATSFL
08-05-13, 10:08 AM
i think it's because the M3 has been around so long, and not merely just in existence; let's face it - it's really the benchmark everything in that segment gets compared to. i believe there are also WAY more M3 enthusiasts versus ATS/CTS enthusiasts, so there is just a larger sample of people who even care to travel around hunting for spy shots, looking for leaked images, etc. they've been accumulating those enthusiasts since 1987 when the M3 was born. we've got some catching up to do, as the ATS is an entirely new model/platform, and trying to compete in a primarily german game.

i'm batching the CTS folks in with the ATS because i'm guessing thats ultimately the group of people who would have any interest in the ATS-V release.

it will gain momentum, trust me. once there are some legitimate pictures, specs, etc.. people will take notice.

just my 2 cents.

M5eater
08-05-13, 10:18 AM
it will gain momentum, trust me. once there are some legitimate pictures, specs, etc.. people will take notice.

just my 2 cents.
I agree with all that's said before, what concerns me most is a lack of acknowledgement from Cadillac or GM though. They've been like this with the V1 and V2. Right up until the first test-drives everyone thought the V2 was getting a 500HP LS7. There was no formal, or official acknowledgement of the car, or it's specifications until people had their hands on them.

The V sport moniker and LF3 are good examples of this. We've heard of a Twin Turbo V6 for a while now, but planting it in the CTS & XTS was right out of no-where, and ironically, the specifications we have for it, are possibly irrelevant for the ATS-V, ie, the car we thought it was going in from as far back as 2011.

the V6 vs V8 debate is more fuel for the fire. We are probably less than half a year away from pre-orders and we don't even know how many cylinders this thing will have.

The truth is, the ATS, IS and F30 all drive remarkably similarly. To you or me, or anyone else not running these at 9/10ths on a road course there's very little to distinguish them. Automotive journalists who review cars for a living sometimes find it difficult. Luxury cars of today are sold and rely on the strength of their brand name, and ignoring your customers like this hurts Cadillac in my eyes. The only company guilty of a worse crime is maybe Audi who has violated many of their customers over and over again.

ATSFL
08-05-13, 10:51 AM
cadillac may be taking the "forbidden fruit is always the sweetest" approach. they already know they will sell every single one of them.

mercedes benz has done similar things with some of the AMG model, where not much is known or seen about it until it is literally on the showroom floor one day.

i think there is a healthy medium, though, of info that can be released and withheld.

if you're looking for cadillac/GM to be more like BMW in their marketing and release of information for future models, you have a very long wait. very few brands publicly embrace their enthusiasts and even aftermarket scene of buyers like BMW does. if you've seen their commercial featuring bimmerfest, and other ads with pictures from enthusiast forums, you'll know what i'm talking about. hell, when the E60 M5 released, the US customers asked BMW for a 6 speed manual transmission option, and BMW listened. there's a reason why BMW ranks so highly in this segment, and a lot of it has to do with the unexplainable "golden glow" of the brand's relationship with those who purchase their vehicles.

M5eater
08-05-13, 11:16 AM
if you're looking for cadillac/GM to be more like BMW in their marketing and release of information for future models, you have a very long wait. very few brands publicly embrace their enthusiasts and even aftermarket scene of buyers like BMW does. if you've seen their commercial featuring bimmerfest, and other ads with pictures from enthusiast forums, you'll know what i'm talking about. hell, when the E60 M5 released, the US customers asked BMW for a 6 speed manual transmission option, and BMW listened. there's a reason why BMW ranks so highly in this segment, and a lot of it has to do with the unexplainable "golden glow" of the brand's relationship with those who purchase their vehicles
I'm glad we're on the same page about this. I suppose I've been a bit confused that they marketed the ATS so aggressively on a very enthusiast driven selling point; handling and then sort of just left it at that.


Cadillac may be taking the "forbidden fruit is always the sweetest" approach. they already know they will sell every single one of them.
True, I suppose.

bruff1977
08-06-13, 01:04 AM
I suppose I've been a bit confused that they marketed the ATS so aggressively on a very enthusiast driven selling point; handling and then sort of just left it at that.



They left it at that and it worked successfully, FOR THE MASSES. Critical acclaim, sales going well, industry awards.

From a marketing perspective, the hot rods have never been solely advertised for most makes. You may see the M, AMG, RS, F in a commercial for example, but the real pitch is for the mass-market model and/or trim.

We as enthusiasts, don't need the traditional advertising. Although I feel a commercial of some sort is coming specifically for the ATS-V. GM is still riding the wave from in my opinion the hugely successful ATS Journey webisodes and ATS versus the World ads.

CTSCHICK
08-06-13, 01:18 AM
GM & their firms that handle such stuff are just piss poor at marketing and advertising that is all there is to it IMO

Stevo Supremo
08-06-13, 01:22 AM
i think it's because the M3 has been around so long, and not merely just in existence; let's face it - it's really the benchmark everything in that segment gets compared to. i believe there are also WAY more M3 enthusiasts versus ATS/CTS enthusiasts, so there is just a larger sample of people who even care to travel around hunting for spy shots, looking for leaked images, etc. they've been accumulating those enthusiasts since 1987 when the M3 was born. we've got some catching up to do, as the ATS is an entirely new model/platform, and trying to compete in a primarily german game.

i'm batching the CTS folks in with the ATS because i'm guessing thats ultimately the group of people who would have any interest in the ATS-V release.

it will gain momentum, trust me. once there are some legitimate pictures, specs, etc.. people will take notice.

just my 2 cents.

right there is what I was thinking. The 3series is a staple in the sport sedan world, its been around forever and had decades to perfect itself. The ATS has JUST arrived, and I think they've done an AWESOME job with it. New and better things will come, look how far CTS and there "V" brand have come since the CTS launch. I dont have a crystal ball, but I'm willing to bet a V8 ATS-V is on the horizon, with the TTV6 being the "V SPORT" brand.

The ATS is a fan-TASTIC looking car, drives amazingly and has received rave reviews. Again, Vsport are the TT V6's, the V series are the V8's. I'm sure Cadillac will follow with a powerhouse edition (V8) to follow to fight the M series, this car seems destined for it.

pissedoffwookiee
08-06-13, 03:56 AM
i suspect Cadillac has caught themselves a case of Apple-itis they've caught the Steve jobsian bug of surprising us and shocking us, I was in the past very steeped in the thought of the TTV6 but after reading M5eaters beautifully written opening and looking back, i think Cadillac has a surprise for us, its very own 'one more thing', but i also don't think a LS is the obvious answer here either, that seems too easy, maybe a brand new northstar, totally redesigned with VVT, direct injection, and variable displacement, or new LT5 with same aforementioned tech, who knows. in any case whether TTV6, LS, or some pie in the sky motor, it'll be fun.

the first time i saw the first CTS was in 'the matrix' and was blown away, the Cien in 'the island' was jr high Lamborghini poster lust-worthy,SRX gen2 was sort of a shock to toyota er lexus owners, ATS was eyeopening at how serious they were about taking on the king (3 series), CTS-V gen 2 was jaw dropping when they told us it was to have a 556hp ls series motor, ART and Science styling is still edgy and unique, the TTV6 and 8speed was and still is big news, and CUE with its shift to a tablet paradigm although early in its life and a work in progress, really is different from most and definitely a bold move not expected from GM (and yet another apple influence). my point is I think the lack of info is by design and there may be some merit here that we don't see yet, and Cadillac, is developing a track record of interesting moves, if not surprises.

it could also be as simple as a standoff between them and BMW, allowing them to blink first, thus giving them time to one up them, as they did with the CTS-V

M5eater
08-06-13, 08:15 AM
it could also be as simple as a standoff between them and BMW, allowing them to blink first, thus giving them time to one up them, as they did with the CTS-V
That's the one hope I keep clinging to.


I dont have a crystal ball, but I'm willing to bet a V8 ATS-V is on the horizon, with the TTV6 being the "V SPORT" brand.
Your speculation is as good as mine, however, I don't foresee that coming to fruition. If Cadillac is going to copy the Msport, Sline(the S car's don't count here) and AMG line cars, then it will have a pedestrian engine (ala LFX) but with some suspension/steering tuning differences, and maybe some brake/cosmetic stuff or possibly offer a 6MT with the LFX. Honestly, there wouldn't be enough difference to justify an ATS-V unless the LF3 was significantly detuned, and then you're paying for a whole lot of engine that isn't used.


I was in the past very steeped in the thought of the TTV6 but after reading M5eaters beautifully written opening and looking back, i think Cadillac has a surprise for us, its very own 'one more thing', but i also don't think a LS is the obvious answer here either, that seems too easy, maybe a brand new northstar, totally redesigned with VVT, direct injection, and variable displacement, or new LT5 with same aforementioned tech, who knows. in any case whether TTV6, LS, or some pie in the sky motor, it'll be fun.
it's interesting you bring up LT5 and N* considering that, the lotus collaboration with the Corvette was mostly responsible for N* in trying to recycle development costs. I can't say I agree with your theory about a wholly new engine, I think GM has decided to continue to polish OHV until it doesn't make economical sense, and it still makes plenty of sense. Plus, bespoke performance engines in 'average' luxury cars are going to become a thing of the past in the wake of increasing emissions requirements. The M156 was probably the last truly performance ground-up engine design(the 4.2FSI in the B8 RS4 and R8 a close second), and it's already been left in the wake of the M157(or the 4.0T in the case of the Audi).

ATSFL
08-06-13, 09:51 AM
i really hope they don't follow BMW in that regard, with all these random "sport" models. BMW (for the 3 series) has the sport line, m-sport line, they will probably have an "iS" model, AND the M3/4. in my opinion it's very annoying and dilutes the 3 series. the way it is now, with the eventual addition of the ATS-V will be good; you have a couple different flavors, then the flagship balls-to-the-wall model.

M5eater
08-06-13, 10:08 AM
i really hope they don't follow BMW in that regard, with all these random "sport" models. BMW (for the 3 series) has the sport line, m-sport line, they will probably have an "iS" model, AND the M3/4. in my opinion it's very annoying and dilutes the 3 series. the way it is now, with the eventual addition of the ATS-V will be good; you have a couple different flavors, then the flagship balls-to-the-wall model.

Cadillac has the least model variation sans maybe Audi, and then Audi has far more option check boxes. I don't think we're in any danger of an overload here.

pissedoffwookiee
08-06-13, 03:30 PM
Cadillac has the least model variation sans maybe Audi, and then Audi has far more option check boxes. I don't think we're in any danger of an overload here.

how's this for variation overload 2012 Porsche 911:

Carrera (997)
Carrera (991)
Carrera 4(997)
Carrera S(997)
Carrera S(991)
Carrera 4S(997)
Carrera GTS(997)
Carrera 4 GTS(997)
Carrera Black Edition(997)
Turbo (997)
S Turbo (997)
S Turbo 918 Spyder Edition (997)
GT3 (997)
GT3 RS (997)
GT3 RS 4.0 (997)
GT2 RS (997)
Targa 4 (997)
Targa 4S (997)
Cabriolet Carrera (997)
Cabriolet Carrera (991)
Cabriolet Carrera 4 (997)
Cabriolet Carrera S (997)
Cabriolet Carrera S (991)
Cabriolet Carrera 4S (997)
Cabriolet Carrera GTS (997)
Cabriolet Carrera 4 GTS(997)
Cabriolet Carrera Black Edition (997)
Cabriolet Turbo (997)
Cabriolet S Turbo (997)
Cabriolet S Turbo 918 Spyder Edition (997)

That's 30 different 2012 Porsche 911's, if you break down the ATS in the same way counting engine as a type you get 16. for 2013 Porsche is down to 12, but they still have 4 months to intro new models.

Ancient Mariner
08-06-13, 03:49 PM
^^^^That's not even counting the ability to almost double the price of any model via Porsche's insane option lists LOL!

pissedoffwookiee
08-06-13, 04:27 PM
it's interesting you bring up LT5 and N* considering that, the lotus collaboration with the Corvette was mostly responsible for N* in trying to recycle development costs. I can't say I agree with your theory about a wholly new engine, I think GM has decided to continue to polish OHV until it doesn't make economical sense, and it still makes plenty of sense. Plus, bespoke performance engines in 'average' luxury cars are going to become a thing of the past in the wake of increasing emissions requirements. The M156 was probably the last truly performance ground-up engine design(the 4.2FSI in the B8 RS4 and R8 a close second), and it's already been left in the wake of the M157(or the 4.0T in the case of the Audi).

i secretly wouldn't mind seeing a new N* they could easily do something like extend the 3.6 to a 4.8 TTV8 or Siamese the 2.0T at the crank and make a 4.0 TTV8 either could be a nice high revving motor easily making 500 ponies and a really nice kick in the family jewels to BMW by directly going after their family jewels by making an N* lite inline 6 by extending the 2.0T to 3.0T 400 HP wonder. not gonna happen, but could be fun to see cadillac shed the chevy/pontiac performance badge engineer specter with some uniquely Cadillac motors

RippyPartsDept
08-06-13, 04:52 PM
It definitely is GM's modus operandi to have apple style secrecy when it comes to new products

i seem to recall someone losing their job over C7 Stingray leaked photos ... right?

and on top of all the other 'surprises'/interesting moves that have been made look at the Escalade and it's remodels

the only thing we've seen so far are spy shots (same as the last redesign... and the one before that too)

it's well within any company's rights to decide what level of secrecy (if any) is best for them

...

we can argue the merits of this secrecy all day long but only time will tell if the strategy/tactic was successful or failed
(and don't try and link product secrecy to the bankruptcy... just don't... please)

JFJr
08-06-13, 06:09 PM
i really hope they don't follow BMW in that regard, with all these random "sport" models. BMW (for the 3 series) has the sport line, m-sport line, they will probably have an "iS" model, AND the M3/4. in my opinion it's very annoying and dilutes the 3 series. the way it is now, with the eventual addition of the ATS-V will be good; you have a couple different flavors, then the flagship balls-to-the-wall model.

Again, we shouldn't care about the German car manufacturers, they're whores and would offer golf carts with those coveted logos if some of their status-seeking, lizard customers wanted them. We need to stick to the American approach and break away from European snobbiness.

Jud

M5eater
08-06-13, 06:36 PM
we can argue the merits of this secrecy all day long but only time will tell if the strategy/tactic was successful or failed

Success or failure has no relevance in the matter from my perspective. Cadillac makes a good product, I'm excited about it, but frustrated that I get treated like a 5 year old trying to figure out who the hell this santa-clause is, and how he he works his magic. I would rather have an honest parent who at least gives me some hints at how the trick works than complexly ignore me.

pissedoffwookiee
08-06-13, 07:00 PM
Again, we shouldn't care about the German car manufacturers, they're whores and would offer golf carts with those coveted logos if some of their status-seeking, lizard customers wanted them. We need to stick to the American approach and break away from European snobbiness.

Jud

lol, so true ..... here's a heartbreaker

one day getting my dry cleaning i come across....

a red M3... in and of itself awesome

convertible (strike one)

automatic (strike two)

realty magnet with pic of Realtor on the doors (strike 3)



now don't misunderstand, nothing wrong with someone wanting a nice car. what was wrong was this scene is what M has become instead of the hardcore car that men/women seek out and others shun because of the character of the car, the no fluff stick only because everything else gets in the way of the cars performance.

BMW is in a blind market share grab, they've made it too accessible, too easy, instead of the accessibility coming from mastering a driving skill that enables you to handle such a beast


I could very well be wrong, but the sense i got of the scene was there was no appreciation for the engineering built into that car, the driving dynamic that would make those magnets fly off, i just didn't get the impression that that car was loved for what it is, but loved for its status at the most expensive 3 series and not much more.

JFJr
08-06-13, 09:29 PM
Yes, Cadillac has a long way to go treating high performance car buyers as it should. The V's brought in totally different customers and some dealerships couldn't adjust to that. It was more familiar handling older people close to dementia. But the product is far exceeding the customer demographics. However, Cadillac will catch up. We can be instructive and helpful, or choose to be whinny and critical. We are part of the process and can be a positive influence, if we choose to. Why not choose the former and be part of the future?

Jud

mberisha
08-09-13, 09:48 AM
GM & their firms that handle such stuff are just piss poor at marketing and advertising that is all there is to it IMO

Concur w/that....let's not also forget that GM isn't always the smartest manufacturer in the bunch. Not to mention....they did go bankrupt a few years back....hmmm....

pissedoffwookiee
08-09-13, 07:52 PM
Concur w/that....let's not also forget that GM isn't always the smartest manufacturer in the bunch. Not to mention....they did go bankrupt a few years back....hmmm....

as a manufacturer in total, yes i agree sometimes they leave you scratching you head, separate management from design & engineering and i bet:

the engineering department is world class

the design department is acceptable Cien/Ciel, Art & Science, corvette exterior woohoo! vs. Ahem, AZTEK, HHR, every front wheel drive cadillac, that weird duckbill looking mullet uplander (truck in the front minivan in the back), corvette interior What?

and management is variable, sometimes great (Lutz, and decision to go RWD with cadillac again vs. Smith and forgetting GM makes cars and just trying to be wall street)

maybe a change of scenery would do them good, sell the renaissance center and move to silicon valley or irvine, they think weird in motown. I recall reading in car and driver years ago about the current batch of new mustangs and how it was originally designed with independant rear end but it was decided they could save money (something like $55 a car) by going live axle, but in the end because the axle industry shrunk because of the prevalence of FWD cars their supply chain of these ended up adding $100 per car, like i said weird