: 94 eldo splice for sub amp or preouts?



cl1986
03-02-05, 07:50 PM
I have seen some factory decks with preouts, but im guessing i dont have any. I have a standard deck so where would i want to splice into?

I am using an Alpine MRD M301 to push an Infinity 12.1 Kappa Perfect. Just built a sealed 1cf box and am about ready to start install. The amp is a class D and the kappa is a perfect.

I was told this is a very good match up of amp and sub, what do you guys think??

Also plan on putting in keyless entry at same time. Any suggestions to make either quicker.

What size power wire should run to that amp? And does anyone know if i can use a 2 gauge alluminum made for residential or is that bad?? It is stranded with about 7 strands i think. Was told more little wires the better and smaller the wire could be used. Something to do with current flowing on outside of each little strand.

D148L0
03-03-05, 01:45 AM
The products you mentioned are a nice selection. Just make sure to have a similar RMS wattage in sub/amp.
I don't know what you mean by residential, but aluminum sucks as a conductor of electricity.
2 gauge is too much for your needs. For that amp only, a 4 gauge is enough.
The best conductors are copper, gold and silver, in that order from lower to higher. Usually the best cables have lots of tiny, very flexible metal strands.
Now, there is a big difference between home and car audio when it comes to unwanted electrical noise, thus the shielding in car cables is different. A good home cable may not be good enough for the car enviroment.

SoundAdvantage
03-03-05, 03:00 AM
D148LO is telling you right on the 4 guage Copper Stranded wire for your amp install. Now to run Rcas to your amp you will need a small plastic box called a L.O.C. "Line Out Converter" There are two different ways you can wire the L.O.C. in to your factory system. You can choose to wire it Behind the stereo or under the Back dash off your 6x9 speaker wires on a NON-BOSE System.

cl1986
03-03-05, 07:41 PM
Ok that makes sense, and the amp does have speaker level imputs, didnt know if it was alright to tap of a running speaker or go from behind the deck. Alluminum 2-2-2 gauge wire is used on almost all residential feeds from the meter to the panel. Also alluminum is used from the transformer to the meter. Sometimes these wires are like 1" in diameter, cant even imagine what copper would cost that size. If alluminum is a terrible conductor, why would they use it all over? Just for the price, but it must work?? Anyone else have an idea what the deal is? Why i am asking is we have all kinds of "free" 2 gauge or heavier alluminum. Hate to buy stuff i dont need.

Other than that, my alpine is 350w rms at 2ohms 14.4V, 175w rms at 12V and my Infinity perfect is 350w rms and 1400w max. So they are perfectly matched right??

What should i ground the amp to? I know some spots give noise.

Thanks for the help guys.

SoundAdvantage
03-04-05, 03:47 AM
OK your going to use speaker inputs so you will not need the L.O.C but on a Factory upgrade I like to use the Line Out Converter if your keeping the factory stereo and install it behind the deck, this way I can run a quality set of RCA cables from the deck to the amp. If you end up going that route just make sure you run the RCA cables on the opposite side of the Power wire that goes to your amplifier, for minimal electrical Noise.

I have never used Aluminum wire in a Mobile Installation. It's not very flexable and I am not sure how well it would work as far as power transfer and amperage. I would find a good deal on a nice Copper 4 guage Amp Kit that comes with your Power and ground wire and the Fuse holder,RCAs,connectors ect. It's cheap Insurance.

Your Cadillac doesn't have any aluminum wire in it's electrical system from the Factory, so there must be a reason why the engineers used all copper wire throughout the car.

Your ground wire should be as short as possible and be grounded to a good bare metal chassis grounding point in the trunk. I used my strut tower bolt in the trunk of my Deville.

cl1986
03-04-05, 10:55 PM
Ok, now someone else told me to use a LOC, even though it was a woman, now im starting to wonder. Tearing apart my dash and splicing wires behind my deck sounds like alot of work. I have a LOC laying around from along time ago. Also would have to buy the "quality" RCA cables as you mentioned. Is this really all necessary for good sound?? I really dont see any difference where the LOC is, if its behind the deck or in the amp itself. Am i missing something??

She stated that a shop never uses speaker level inputs. I asked why there were on the amp then, and she didnt know. I figure if Alpine doesnt know what they are doing, who does??

To me, i cant tell the difference between Ultimates $100 optical cable and Walmarts gold plated $9 optical cable on a home theatre system. I suppose if i had $20k speakers, i would splurge for the $100 cable.

But i only have a $150 amp and a $115 speaker. I dont think i would ever spend more on the patch and power cables than the equipment itself. I guess thats just how i look at it.

Even Klipsch speakers sound really great over crappy cable. They sound better over good cable, but its mostly the speaker and amp.

Please let me know how u feel!!!

SoundAdvantage
03-05-05, 04:23 AM
I am just use to doing Installs the right way for the Best Sound. I have suggested what I would do, I am in this business so we can't half A$$ Installs on other peoples vehicles or our own.
Try just going the cheap way out and try using your high pass inputs and see what it sounds like, it won't cost you anything but your time.
Keep in mind your car audio equipment is only as good as it's install.

cl1986
03-05-05, 10:55 AM
What i was realy looking for is this:

How much loss is there from the 10' feet of speaker wire rather than going with RCA cables?

How much loss is there in the 10' of RCA cables??

How much of a loss is there by using built in LOC in amp rather than LOC??

Is this loss enough to consider this the wrong way??

By loss, i mean quality and/or ohms.

If no one can tell me this, there is no right answer yet. My point is, if you dont know and you just do what your told, then you cant tell anyone esle what to do.

Not that u dont know what ur doing, and you may know these answers too.

But my job everyday is to find out what works best at a resonable price. Like i stated before-- why buy a $100 cable if it connects to a $40 speaker??

I build computers the same way.

$540 - Athlon 64 4000
$376 - Athlon 64 3800
$319 - Athlon 64 3700
$261 - Athlon 64 3500
$192 - Athlon 64 3400
$169 - Athlon 64 3200
$135 - Athlon 64 3000
$109 - Athlon 64 2800

In this example, a 3500 is a waste of money and i would go with a 3400. The actual benchmarks show them really close in speed. $70 would be wasted.

I have found out in everyday life, that just because people do things a certian way, doesnt allways mean u get the best bang for the buck.

Just yesterday, i had a fence company quote me a price and i told them they were way too high. They then stated that they were quoting me a heavier gage fence. But i didnt need the heavier gage fence. They only sold that gauge so i went to menards and got the cheaper, smaller stuff. Most people would have just bought the unnecessary heavier fence.

D148L0
03-05-05, 02:20 PM
Man, I donīt want to sound too harsh, but you a) donīt want to put too much effort into it, and b) are going kinda cheapo here. Most times is one or the other, but not the 2 together... sadly, in audio the old "you get what you pay" adagio is very often true...

SoundAdvantage is right in what he said.

There is one reason aluminum is used in outdoor applications: itīs durability and resistance to the elements. It is a conductant, sure, but it sucks compared to copper: 68% of copperīs conductance in most house-grade aluminum.
In car audio enviroment, you must squeeze as much energy of the whole system as possible. Using aluminum would NOT be smart.

As for the loss you are asking, there is a higher chance to get unwanted noise from speaker cable than from a DECENT RCA cable. A nice shielded, twisted 6" one should be around $20, and itīs worth every penny.

cl1986
03-05-05, 02:49 PM
Well i just bought the $50 power cable. I already have a LOC from high school so i will use that, but the guy said to use the LOC and i could do it in the trunk instead of ripping apart my factory. I wouldnt have any problem at all if it was all torn apart ten times and had an aftermarket radio.

Back in high school i had 2 kicker comp i bought for $80 and Pioneer 50w rms per channel amp for $20 and a free alpine deck and i had the second best stereo in town. The best one was custom install and totalled over $5000. On that cheap setup i used 12-2 copper house wire and it worked just fine. You need to know where to draw the line. For the $5000 system, ya use all premium stuff, but why waste premium on cheap components??

You guys have a really thick line i think and dont know where to draw it.

cl1986
03-05-05, 05:32 PM
Ok why didnt someone tell me it was a pull, loosen, radio out in less than 30 seconds thing. I am hooking up LOC behind deck. Wires at rear speakers are blue lt blue and brown yellow. No such wires at deck. I have been searching the internet for over an hour now with no result. What wires do i splice into and which are positive. Also have Jensen LOC with no labels, which wires are positive on that, one wire for r and l have stripe on them. assume black wire is ground. Have come to conclusion that internet now sucks, i found this info very quickly when i did my 86 about 5 years ago.

cl1986
03-05-05, 06:17 PM
SOB!! This is why i asked all this stuff. The speaker wires all come FROM the trunk!! The antenna lead is only about a foot long and goes into what i think is the tuner, with the amp in it.

So technically i have low imputs coming from my head unit?? If so this is almost like RCA then without the plugs or am i wrong??

Actually im totally confused now, the deck probrably doesnt have any wires containing music, and they are all controller wires??

SoundAdvantage
03-08-05, 02:02 AM
Is your Factory system a BOSE system by chance? If it is a Bose you cant use the L.O.C. You would have to use a Interface. But if it's not a Bose then your ok with the Line Out Converter.

bobbythebuilder
03-08-05, 09:05 AM
I was just looking at this thread, a couple things come to mind. In some of the 1990's Sevilles and Eldorados the "head unit" is actually in two parts. (As opposed to 99.9999999% of car stereos which have everything to do with the receiver in ONE unit, IN your dash. You may have one of these, I think 94 was one of those years. Also, like someone mentioned, if you have the Bose, the amps are also different than 99.9999999999999999% of car audio, they have individual amps mounted with EACH of the speakers. So, I would think that the wire(s) going to/from each of the speakers would be at line-level, these particular Bose sytems are amplified ONLY at each of the four speakers. For ANYTHING dealing with modifying an OEM Bose system, I'd google something like "Bose subwoofer install parts" or something of the like. Soon enough you will find a company that makes accessories for Bose mods, like the line-level converters, other parts to put a new head unit on your Bose system, etc. Ask them what to do for the Bose-specific modifications, they do this stuff all the time, they'll know what's line-level, etc. and all the details of a 1994 Eldorado/Bose system. If its not Bose, you should be able to cut into the speaker leads and add the line-outs.

Actually, looking back at this, if its not a Bose system, you're just adding an amp/sub to your Factory System? Why bother-it's just like the old saying about putting lipstick on a pig! It's still a pig! Even if it's the Bose, I'd probably chuck it! I'd say if you're going through ALL of this work, just get a new head unit, etc! Thanks to Chinese prison/slave labor, we get to enjoy things like really decent auto CD receivers for less than $100! For what you're looking for these could be perfect, if you budget $150.00 max, you'll get a built-in amp in the head unit that'll be something like 45 or 50 wattsx4 channels. These built in amps are FAR better than they used to be! You'll certainly have pre-outs, one set meant for subs. Then you've got your own sub control right on the unit! Budget $200.00 MAX for 4 speakers, you'll probably spend under $150.00! (You need two 5.25" for the doors, two 6x9's for the rear shelf) Just the new head unit and speakers will sound much much better! Then hookup your amp/sub up to the pre-outs, it should rock! I have always heard great praise for Alpine amps from their owners. A $50 power line might be overkill, if you can take it back, I would. It doesn't sound like that Alpine amp is too big, they should have formulas for what size wire to use, based upon the amp draw from your amp ! (Sounds kind of funny!) The smaller wire that you use, along with the distance from the battery to the amp, will cause the amperage draw to rise, just like if you hooked say 4 50' 18 gauge extension cords together, if you ran a wimpy drill that normally pulls 6 amps max, by the time you got to the circuit panel, that one drill would be pulling like 20 amps through the breraker! Figure out what gauge you REALLY need, I'd think 8 gauge would supply more than enough juice, without raising the amperage draw thru the roof! I think you are right on, that dropping BIGG$$$$$ on cables for what is otherwise a reasonably-priced setup would be a waste.

Well, that's my "little commentary" for this matter! Oh wait, I've gotta go back to bring up the "house wiring idea" Yep, that sounds pretty darn GOOFY! YOU COULD CALL YOUR CADDY "THE ROMEX RIDER"!!!!!!!!! IN FACT, INSTEAD OF GETTING ONE OF THOSE OVERPRICED, GOLD-PLATED FUSE BLOCKS OR DISTRIBUTION BLOCKS, YOU COULD GO AND BUY A FULL-SIZE RESIDENTIAL CIRCUIT PANEL AND MOUNT IT IN YOUR TRUNK! YOU KNOW, GET THE OLD "BATTLESHIP GRAY" SQUARE D! Sorry, I just couldn't resist!

D148L0
03-08-05, 01:04 PM
bobbythebuilder, you are correct in the amplified speakers, but you must remember there is a pre-amp that can provide a proper taping place.
You and cl1986 may like this site:
http://www.carstereohelp.com/stereoremovalCadSevilleCDMR.htm

As for the power cable gauge, I differ from you: for a 175W RMS like the one in this case, and a battery - trunk lenght of the cable, the correct gauge is 4.
I agree, there is no point on getting more than what you need, but in this case we are talking about the minimum requirements.

To only use the built-in amp of a head unit for mids/highs and a 175 W separate amp for bass... I dunno, it seems a little unequal.

Last but not least, a lot of cadillac owners are satisfied with the mid/high range in their bose systems, and only want to add bass. In a 10 year old car, you may have a point, specially if the system has been abused.


Anyway, I guess you were just kidding...

cl1986
03-08-05, 02:25 PM
Great repies. No i dont have any bose, actually i dont know what i have, i thought it said delco, but it doesnt. Must be generic?? I dont know.

As far as the bass goes, ya it might be too much, but these damn factory units cut the bass out the higher the volume goes to limit distortion. I do want to change out the head unit, but no one makes a descent looking one that would do WITH the car and plus all my wires and antenna are in the trunk, anyone have a 20' antenna patch cord?

I have seen the pioneer head units and like them, but big blue flourescent doesnt go with all my green digital stuff.

And no not 99.9999999% of car audio is non bose, corvette, cadillac, buick and many other come to mind. My chevy truck has seperate deck for tape and seperate unit for cd player. Its not all that uncommon. I just thought someone with over 20 years of experience would know whats going on esp since the car is 10 years old.

The kit i bought was 4 gauge and came with the 20' RCA's that i couldnt use, came with big fuse, all crimp connectors and boots, and one factory end on each cable. Right now using LOC off trunk tuner but for some reason i only got left side, oh well its mono amp anyway.

Im looking at some Kappas 6x9 on ebay for $50, they will be allright with the factory not??

If anyone has seen a descent replacement head unit let me know, but all i have seen is the "teenager" bouncing lights and wrong color stuff that doesnt match.

cl1986
03-08-05, 02:27 PM
Well, that's my "little commentary" for this matter! Oh wait, I've gotta go back to bring up the "house wiring idea" Yep, that sounds pretty darn GOOFY! YOU COULD CALL YOUR CADDY "THE ROMEX RIDER"!!!!!!!!! IN FACT, INSTEAD OF GETTING ONE OF THOSE OVERPRICED, GOLD-PLATED FUSE BLOCKS OR DISTRIBUTION BLOCKS, YOU COULD GO AND BUY A FULL-SIZE RESIDENTIAL CIRCUIT PANEL AND MOUNT IT IN YOUR TRUNK! YOU KNOW, GET THE OLD "BATTLESHIP GRAY" SQUARE D! Sorry, I just couldn't resist!

This has crossed my mind and is a very good idea. Im not joking.

I love dealing with electricity, i wired my new house with all kinds of extras. Ive also seen 2" alluminum wire being pulled for transformers. I have a 60 amp boiler that heats my concrete floor in my house. I know this is all ac current but there really isnt much difference. If you think about it, how good is the ground cable that goes back to the battery, oh yeah, its a big ass heavy SOLID steel body. Is this finely stranded cable any better than a big solid cable?? What about the ground. Question is, why dontwe run a good stranded cable back to the battery if we spent all this money already???

Sometimes u have to stop and think and not just do what u do everyday just because thats the way to do it. Even if it is right.

I would love to see results of a test of NM cable and the car cable of similar size. I know, i have to try to figure everything out, its just the way i am.

cl1986
03-10-05, 07:33 PM
Ok lets put all that crap aside.

I just was looking at my Alpine MRD 301 and the speaker input connector looks mysteriously like a LOC. Is it?? I was told not to use this by the professional that responded in this post.

Also i noticed that the input is made for standard and high output head units. So then this could be used with a bose system? I dont have one, just wondering.

bobbythebuilder
03-12-05, 08:34 AM
Just to clarify, my "99.999 . . .% " comment referred to how the GM Bose systems from the 80's and 90's used individual amps packed in with each speaker. Thus, there wasn't amplification built into the head unit or one or more amps separate from the head unit and the speakers, in the trunk or under the seat, etc. I've never heard of any other system that used this setup, with one amp for each speaker, each amp mounted with the speaker. This is what makes the GM/Bose systems harder to work with than others. I wasn't referring to spearate CD/cassette setups. Either way, just seeing how inexpensive aftermarket head units, speakers, amps, subs, etc are these days, I'd just go for the new setup, if you are planning on keeping the car for a long time.

bobbythebuilder
03-12-05, 08:53 AM
Also, as far as the Alpine amp having high and low inputs, it probably does. Yes, audio "purists" will think it to be a lesser quality hookup, which it probably is, slightly. On your amp, Alpine was probably leaving the option open for high-level or line-level inputs, such as in your case, where that's the only way to go. If you went into any car audio place, they would set you up with the RCA's running from the head unit to the amp, like one of the earlier posts, "high-level" speaker wires from the head to the amp are more prone to picking up engine noise, etc. as well as not being as "pure" of a source. If you look at any BIG$$$$$ car audio amps, high-level inputs will be very hard to find. If you are new to hooking up car audio, engine noises, which can come from any one of about a million places in a car, are a BIG pain in the a**! It's that good old whistling noise that goes up with your revs, or clicking from the blinkers, or who knows what! As far as Bose hookups with LOC's, this again goes back to my now famous 99.9999% point,. Because the GM/Bose systems had EACH AMP MOUNTED WITH EACH SPEAKER, the wires going to the speakers are not "high-level" wires, like 99.999999% of factory stereos, they are really low-level wires, to be amplified at the speaker/amp unit.

P.S. I understand your desire to try a different path with the wiring. It is true that a little innovation sometimes leads a a better method!:2thumbs:

cl1986
05-30-05, 01:43 PM
Well, turns out im doing eveything right!!! because the amp came with a LOC and the factory tuner/ amp is in my trunk 12" away from my amp. So the way i did it is the best your can get!!!

And if anyone knows of a way to use the remote installed in my dash, looks like a radio, with the newer decks i could mount in my trunk that would be great, keep the factory buttons and use a completely different stereo!!! I ran into this remote thing at Ultimate electronics, seems they have a programmable remote that i could hack into and use my factory buttons, i gave up on the new system idea since everything went so nice with sub install, but i know it could be done, and i like the challenge.