: Creative Steel WIDE WHEEL TRAILING ARMS



MotorMounts
07-19-13, 08:40 PM
O.K. Guys, These things are finally available. We started to make these wide wheel trailing arms years ago but pulled away for one reason or another and since MAP and KillerNoodle were filling the need, we focused on other projects. Recently there seems to have been a break in the supply chain of these arms so we thought we would answer the call of our fellow CTS and CTS-V owners.

We've had this version of our trailing arms on our car for about three years now with no issues, they were on the car when we were at the drag strip testing our 8.8 rear differential kit, had no problems.

The arms we make now are essentially the same but we did make some improvement in the bushing department. Originally we reused the OEM bushing in the hub where the arm connects. Now we have made new bushings that are a 90A durometer that are grease-able while the arms are on the car. This way if the bushings start to squeak six months down the road you don't have to remove the arms in order to grease them. The mounting bolts at the hub end are drilled and cross drilled with a zirk installed. A few pumps with a grease gun and the bushings are quiet again. The other end of the arms also have grease zirks installed, these bushings are a 70A durometer due to the fact they act as a hinge when the suspension travels up and down. If there is a large enough demand for a spherical bearing at the front end of the arm, we will explore that option.

I'm not sure what the clearance is between the factory arms and the factory wheels are but if my memory is correct it's about ONE inch (dumb), with our arms you will have almost 5" of clearance. That's more room than you will ever need, but that's what we ended up with after we went around the lower shock mount. The brace in the corner of the arm has also been formed to clear the bottom of the lower shock mount portion of the hub meaning no grinding is required like arms offered by others.

There have been problems with the tubes that the mounting bolts pass through made by others of wide wheel arms, we did not make this mistake. Even the prototype set that have been on our car all these years had tubes with a .220 wall thickness. These new wide wheel arms have the same tubes and will not collapse when the bolts are torqued to 130 ft. lbs.

We are offering these arms with and without the bushing that go in the hub. For those of you that wish to reuse your factory (softest bushing on the whole car I might add) the arms are $375 +frt, with the new 90A bushing the arms are $435 +frt.

These arms are not on our website as of now (7-19-13), give us a call if interested or you have questions.

These arms have been a LONG, LONG time coming, these are happy days.

Hope you guys back East get some heat/humidity relief soon, I hate being sticky !!

Peace Out all, have a good weekend...........Max

127666
127674
127682
127690
127698

Skidmarcx
07-19-13, 08:51 PM
Wow they look pretty... Somebody needs to put these to the test!

FuzzyLogic
07-19-13, 08:57 PM
*sigh*

Just because you have the only product presently on the market doesn't mean that you can rake us over the coals on pricing. While it's great that there's an option available for people right now, that pricing is going to absolutely guarantee that people will finish their work on alternatives. For instance, KillerNoodle's arms cost $275, and they've been absolutely bulletproof. They also came with a Ballistic Fabrication ball joint that's far more durable than any polyurethane bushing, and don't restrict movement.

That said, looking forward to a real alternative to BMR toe rods--I'm glad to see that you're working on something that's adjustable without giving your alignment guy a conniption.

MotorMounts
07-19-13, 09:59 PM
Fuzzy......I knew you'd have some negative comment waiting for the introduction of these wide wheel arms. I'm not sure why you have such an axe to grind with us, it really doesn't matter. The people that hangout here on the forum know that you are free-flowing with your opinion and also know that it's worth what you charge for it. Don't worry, you are not part of the "us" on these arms.

The adjustable, greaseable toe-rods will be discussed next week.

MoistCabbage
07-19-13, 10:15 PM
Outside looking in here, but it does seem like a bit much for a relatively cheap and easy to manufacture part. I've seen tubular lower control arms with spring perches, bushings, and ball joints for that price.

FuzzyLogic
07-19-13, 10:58 PM
Fuzzy......I knew you'd have some negative comment waiting for the introduction of these wide wheel arms. I'm not sure why you have such an axe to grind with us, it really doesn't matter. The people that hangout here on the forum know that you are free-flowing with your opinion and also know that it's worth what you charge for it. Don't worry, you are not part of the "us" on these arms.

The adjustable, greaseable toe-rods will be discussed next week.

As I recall, I just paid you to rent your differential bushing tool for the second time because (apparently) your differential bushing either wasn't designed to fit the 4th generation differential (you claimed that the CTS-V differentials randomly have different sized mounting cups), or it failed. Either way, that's the price of two tool rentals and a bushing purchase down the tubes. I even sent it back to you to help you with your R&D. I also had to wrap your black motor mounts in lava wrap because everybody's motor mounts are still melting and tearing--even after you changed the formula. I had to throw away your shifter rail bushings because they were worse than my three-year-old UUC bushings from Luke @ Lindsay. Free advice: put a lip on both sides of the shifter bushing and it won't slide off the rails.

The above is a pretty good reason not to like you guys, but that wasn't the point of my earlier post. Nearly $500 for a set of trailing arms is too much. Period. Regardless of quality. I've ripped on a lot of vendors for high prices--Revshift, you, and D3. There's no favoritism here. If you have a good counter argument or justification for your price, make it. If not, obey the forum rules like everyone else. We're allowed to critique products.

MoistCabbage
07-19-13, 11:45 PM
Speaking of forum rules, I don't believe MotorMounts is an authorized vendor. Ads by non vendors are not allowed outside of the classifieds.

RyRidesMotoX
07-20-13, 12:04 AM
For people like me, who don't have access to a machine shop with proper metal working equipment something like this is a decent alternative to going full custom. I mean come on, they gotta pay to keep the lights on over there to keep building our stuff somehow. I'm pretty sure Obama isn't subsidizing car parts, just cell phones and guns to terrorists. lol

FuzzyLogic
07-20-13, 12:17 AM
For people like me, who don't have access to a machine shop with proper metal working equipment something like this is a decent alternative to going full custom. I mean come on, they gotta pay to keep the lights on over there to keep building our stuff somehow. I'm pretty sure Obama isn't subsidizing car parts, just cell phones and guns to terrorists. lol

$500 + paying a shop to modify your heavy, stock wheels = $1000. A set of Team Dynamics wheels = $1200. Plus you get to keep your old ones.

RyRidesMotoX
07-20-13, 04:53 AM
I'm not saying I'm gonna go get them. I'm just saying for guys in my position, as more of a hypothetical really. I'm not going to use super wide wheels on the car. No need to really. I'm still at basically stock power level, or whatever a set of long tubes and 3 inch exhaust get you... Which I assume isn't much without a tune yet. I'm looking at team dynamics wheels but not til after I do my heads/cam. I do have to say though, it seems like you do have a thing against some vendors here. Some kind of vendetta for some reason. I'm sure you have your reasons, not really any of my damn business. But in this case, all other things being equal (ie forget about the tool that they sent you that didn't work, & the motor mounts) they are trying to release new products, they deserve at least a little credit for that. Plus the rules of supply and demand... People want it, if your the only supplier you charge em a little more. That's just the way the world works. But you understand all this already. I'm sure someone will buy em. Personally, I'm going to wait to see if killer noodle starts selling his again. Not necessarily to go wider, but to replace stock stuff with items that are built better/stronger for track day use, not to mention these damn potholes on these garbage California roads.

Plus I hope people buy these so CS keeps their door open long enough for me to order their 8.8 stuff lol... But that's just me being selfish. ;)

Submariner409
07-20-13, 09:47 AM
FYI - Thread and posts restored. MotorMounts is working on restoring his lapsed Platinum Vendor status and FuzzyLogic has been cleared of a possible spam violation.

Sorry for the misunderstanding - Tune fast.

MotorMounts
07-20-13, 11:17 AM
Thanks Fuzzy, for reporting me to the admins as an advertising spammer which in-turn got this thread deleted. You are of the highest caliber.

Thank You Submariner409 for your understanding.

FuzzyLogic
07-20-13, 11:19 AM
Thanks Fuzzy, for reporting me to the admins as an advertising spammer which in-turn got this thread deleted. You are of the highest caliber.

Thank You Submariner409 for your understanding.

Wasn't me. If I think you're spamming, I'll say it to your face.

shadybx7
07-20-13, 11:25 AM
I see no pictures, i get an Invalid Attachment error

MotorMounts
07-20-13, 11:56 AM
Fuzzy... After re-reading your first two posts...they are not as inflammatory as I previously perceived them. If you feel that you were wronged by us or our parts, call me on Monday, I will refund every nickel including shipping. I would like to hear or re-hear your side of the story.

The shifter bushings have only one shoulder/lip (like the factory bushing) so they can be slid between the shifter rod and the mounting tube that they go in. A shoulder on each end would make it "troublesome" to install. A small picture with directions is sent with each set of shifter bushings. The shoulder of the bushing goes toward the rear of the car which captures it behind the tube that it pushes in to.

Call me on Monday, I will send you some money.

----------


Wasn't me. If I think you're spamming, I'll say it to your face.

10-4, on the "wasn't me", maybe it was the new guy with 13,000+ posts since a join date of 2011.


I see no pictures, i get an Invalid Attachment error

Ya, I figure the "no pictures visible" is part of my vendor status not being current. Expired yesterday. I'm pleased that Submariner409 is allowing us to have this much conversation on this thread.

FuzzyLogic
07-20-13, 11:56 AM
Fuzzy... After re-reading your first two posts...they are not as inflammatory as I previously perceived them. If you feel that you were wronged by us or our parts, call me on Monday, I will refund every nickel including shipping. I would like to hear or re-hear your side of the story.

The shifter bushings have only one shoulder/lip (like the factory bushing) so they can be slid between the shifter rod and the mounting tube that they go in. A shoulder on each end would make it "troublesome" to install. A small picture with directions is sent with each set of shifter bushings. The shoulder of the bushing goes toward the rear of the car which captures it behind the tube that it pushes in to.

Call me on Monday, I will send you some money.

Don't worry about it. If you want to give me a break on shipping when I need a 8.8" kit (assuming 54inches hasn't made his kit available to the world by then), I'll take you up on that.

I'm largely following in PISNUOFF's footsteps with a 427 LSx iron block build, except that I'm going the "very large supercharger" route and he's doing the "very large turbocharger(s)" route. Heads, compression, and a few other things will vary, but what's certain is the stock rear end is living on borrowed time. Hence, an iron differential housing, carbon fiber driveshaft, and full axles are in my future.

Bewbzout
07-20-13, 12:07 PM
First off i will say that i am new here so i dont know all the stories or personalities.

After reading this thread i have a little input but its just my opinion so take it or leave it.

$435+shipping is nothing for trailing arms. I dont know if this is your first car but i have had several cars that i have modded and i think the price is fair. Also for someone like me that would like to have wider wheels where else would i or anybody go? If i were to try and have someone build me a set i look at it like this: Fab shop to get it right will have well over a day just to make a set. Consider they have to have a decent tube bender, Lathe and welder. So 8 hours + @ shop rate of $80/hr (<- very low) = $640. That doesnt include the bushings or powdercoat.

So like i said its just my opinion and observation but for you that are complaining about price i highly doubt you have the tooling and or knowledge to build these so stop complaining about price when its the only option most have.

Relax and drink some beer

runsfromdacops
07-20-13, 12:08 PM
Looks great max. I like the design a lot more then the kinked lightning bolt that others have tried.
If I was going to get bigger wheels id have a set on my car for sure.


And fuzzy man what is your deal ?
90% of what you post is bad mouthing someone or a new product. We are a very small community here and we need to welcom any and all owners and companys that are willing to invest in our car
If you dont like the price then go buy the tools and build your own

FuzzyLogic
07-20-13, 12:19 PM
and fuzzy man what is your deal ?
90% of what you post is bad mouthing someone or a new product. We are a very small community here and we need to welcom any and all owners and companys that are willing to invest in our car
If you dont like the price then go buy the tools and build your own

90% of what I post is technical. It is the responsibility of educated, conscientious consumers to identify potential price gouging and request equitable prices, especially in underrepresented markets where corporate social responsibility (CSR) is not actively being monitored.


In particular, this research shows that CSR leads to outcomes such as increased customer loyalty, willingness to pay premium prices, and lower reputational risks in times of crisis. [1,2,3] Each of these marketing outcomes in turn has the potential to support increased profitability.

http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/corpgov/2011/02/28/investing-in-corporate-social-responsibility-to-enhance-customer-value/

If you're reading an antagonizing tone into my posts, please note that it only exists in your head. The way I see it, this kind of critique only makes our vendors and the CTS-V community at large stronger by building honesty and trust (where trust can be had) between members. Does drama erupt from time to time? Absolutely. But the alternative--a community that only exists to pat each other's backs--is far worse.

jclayc
07-20-13, 12:22 PM
with such a small market, I appreciate any fabricator/manufacturer putting out new parts

Bewbzout
07-20-13, 12:36 PM
^ agreed. If you dont have the money buy a honda where you can buy stolen parts for what you think is fair.

CTS-V_07
07-20-13, 01:19 PM
^ agreed. If you dont have the money buy a honda where you can buy stolen parts for what you think is fair.

^ This makes me laugh... But it is true though!

VincentT
07-20-13, 02:42 PM
Nobody can really deny Fuzzy's knowledge base on our cars. But what he gains in knowledge he seems to lose as much or more in tact. At least as far as one can judge based on reading forum posts.

AAIIIC
07-20-13, 03:53 PM
I'm surprised a poly bushing in the front mounting location would work. Poly is typically used to provide more resistance to torsion than a rubber bushing provides. In that front bushing, you want the trailing arm to pivot up and down freely, so you need the bushing to allow that, but resist forward/aft motion under braking and acceleration. A spherical bearing (or one of the spherical bushings like those offered by Ballistic Fab and others) seems like the right answer IMO.

Can you re-load the pics? I'm getting the same error referred to previously.

Edit: The hollow bolt at the knuckle to allow for greasing through the bolt is a good detail.

DavidBoren
07-20-13, 04:05 PM
I cannot see the pictures, either. And I think spherical rod ends would be better than poly bushings.

MotorMounts
07-20-13, 04:48 PM
Sorry about that. The pictures should be back up now.

liqidvenom
07-20-13, 05:17 PM
I dont think that price is overly high for these parts, more so when you factor in the low sales volume of our after market parts its a wonder we dont get stuck paying the same price for parts as the c63 crowd. most one after market parts for a vehicle with only 8-10k production units have huge price mark ups on them.

they could make a version of these for a golf/jetta ( or any other vehicle with large production numbers who tend to mod) and sell 10k sets of these parts maybe even at this price.

FuzzyLogic
07-20-13, 06:33 PM
they could make a version of these for a golf/jetta ( or any other vehicle with large production numbers who tend to mod) and sell 10k sets of these parts maybe even at this price.

http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/x,carcode,1502686,parttype,7504

liqidvenom
07-20-13, 07:41 PM
I didnt know that rock auto sold custom aftermarket parts.

Factory trailing arm
http://www.jimellisaudiparts.com/products/Audi/RS4/Trailing-arm/5558578/8E0505311AF.html

Aftermarket
http://www.hotchkis.net/20052012-mustang-lower-trailing-arms.html
http://www.spohn.net/shop/2010-Chevrolet-Camaro/Suspension/Rear-Suspension/Rear-Trailing-Arms/Tubular-Rear-Trailing-Arms-with-Del-Sphere-Pivot-Joints-2010-Chevrolet-Camaro-Pontiac-G8.html?gclid=COWLkdWdv7gCFWxyQgod5UoA2A


I wont even pull up parts for vehicles in our "class" from mb/bmw/audi when it comes to anything aftermarket...and those cars along with the links i posts have different models where a supplier could sell those parts to them because they also like performance equipment. We just have a ever shrinking number of vehicles and soon a third gen cts-v to make ours even further obsolete from a product design standpoint.

I all say is let the companies build good parts for us, keep from thrashing each other and allow customers who bought the parts to leave feedback to make better parts. D3 gets heat all the time for their costs, but i can say it their customers running all over cali seem to be happy and i dont recall anyone ever complaining about their parts not lasting.

HAMSTAR
07-20-13, 07:58 PM
I agree. The market will determine pricing. Complaining about it is just noise if you're not going to actively do something about it.

philistine
07-20-13, 08:05 PM
^^^about $300 is typical for some good high quality trailing arms. I think CS priced the 8.8 kits just right - a little more for the turnkey do it in one weekend, and the partial kit to bank a few $$$.

I'm glad you decided to give the community trailing arms, they look great! Want some money Max? Do a turnkey fuel system upgrade kit - dual pump hangar with all the lines etc.

VscharesV
07-21-13, 07:12 AM
Honestly I have been following this thread for about a year. From my observation, Fuzzy is a very condescending and opinionated person. He thinks he is never wrong and everything he does is the only way anything should be done. Its quite annoying. Plus hes got a huge hard on for revshift and trys to belittle their competitors any chance he gets.

FuzzyLogic
07-21-13, 08:20 AM
Honestly I have been following this thread for about a year. From my observation, Fuzzy is a very condescending and opinionated person. He thinks he is never wrong and everything he does is the only way anything should be done. Its quite annoying. Plus hes got a huge hard on for revshift and trys to belittle their competitors any chance he gets.

Oh? Remember how I raked them over the coals for months with questions about quality and pricing when they first produced CTS-V products? Obviously you don't. Instead of whining and complaining, Revshift proved that their products were well-engineered and worth the price. They earned the respect that they're given, but they could lose it if they made a couple of bad turns.

My only advice is that you do your homework next time before your opinions lead you to say something else that's obviously wrong. To wit:

I try my best to do sufficient research before I write anything up (recent examples: 1 (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/2004-2007-cadillac-cts-v-performance/314034-cts-v-suspension-tuning.html), 2 (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/2004-2007-cadillac-cts-v-performance/287412-big-3-ad244-alternator-upgrade.html), 3 (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/2004-2007-cadillac-cts-v-performance/289471-revshift-subframe-control-arm-bushings-installed.html)). The last thing that I want to do is provide inaccurate information that would result in wasted time or money. Engineering ethics. It has nothing to do with wanting to feel superior. It has everything to do with not wanting to be wrong or a burden. When I ask a question (recent examples: 1 (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/2004-2007-cadillac-cts-v-appearance/323185-installing-aftermarket-amp-rear-harness-guide.html), 2 (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/2004-2007-cadillac-cts-v-performance/285550-kw-variant-3-spring-rates.html)), you'll note that I usually come to the table with research in hand because I hate being spoon-fed. The definition of "condescending" implies that I'm patronizing you. Do you feel patronized?

VscharesV
07-21-13, 08:57 AM
Well if you want to get into vocabulary lesons that's fine. At least make sure you are correct before trying to point out errors. There is more than one definition of patronize, one of them being to talk down and belittle. So to answer your question, no not me but I'm sure others would say yes.

patronize
verb
1. talk down to, look down on, treat as inferior, treat like a child, be lofty with, treat condescendingly

I said I have followed this forum for a year. How would I know what you did 3 years ago? I just gave my honest opinion of how I perceive you on this forum, I'm obviously not the only one that thinks this about you. You could be the world's nicest guy in person (though I highly doubt it) but on here you are the polar opposite.

FuzzyLogic
07-21-13, 09:05 AM
Revshift's products first started to appear in the 12/2011-02/2012 timeframe. They were first discussed on this forum in 03/2012 in one of the big motor mount comparison threads.

Manofmetal01
07-21-13, 09:39 AM
If it bothers you so much, skip the banter and read the facts and information that is brought to the table. And much useful information has been brought time and again. Ive found it helpful.

RyRidesMotoX
07-21-13, 01:30 PM
Fuzzy can be a dick, but he is correct most of the time. Nothing wrong with that. Just don't be a little girl about it and take what he says for face value.

Skidmarcx
07-21-13, 01:44 PM
Wow this thread got off track... Who cares if Fuzzy is a prick... He provides good info at times... And yea these parts can be considered pricey, but if they don't break and they look sexy then it's worth it to me...

barrok69
07-21-13, 01:46 PM
I'm surprised a poly bushing in the front mounting location would work. Poly is typically used to provide more resistance to torsion than a rubber bushing provides. In that front bushing, you want the trailing arm to pivot up and down freely, so you need the bushing to allow that, but resist forward/aft motion under braking and acceleration. A spherical bearing (or one of the spherical bushings like those offered by Ballistic Fab and others) seems like the right answer IMO.

Can you re-load the pics? I'm getting the same error referred to previously.

Edit: The hollow bolt at the knuckle to allow for greasing through the bolt is a good detail.

I'm kind of leaning the same way with the front bushing. Ideally you don't want very much resistance for the up and down rotation this joint sees. You don't want it too soft either or else you'll end up with increased wheel hop and poor wheel stability. I'd be curious to see how easy it is to deflect a 70A poly bushing with the long moment arm of this trailing arm. I'm assuming it moves fine but I'm not sure how long the bushing will last from a durability perspective since poly isn't as soft and forgiving as rubber. Typically a bushing setup of this nature isn't meant to see more than 5 of side to side deflection.

Another thing to consider when replacing a rubber bushing with a poly bushing or cross-axis ball-joint is that it will definitely transmit more road noise into the cabin. For some this is a deal breaker, for others not an issue. Anybody that has a BMR trailing arm can comment on this as it should feel the same as what Max is offering, just have less wheel clearance.

Keeping in mind if enough of us want a cross-axis ball-joint in place of the poly bushing Max said in his original post he was willing to consider it based on interest. From a construction standpoint it shouldn't be too difficult to replace that captured bushing end on a jig with a self contained balljoint to weld on. Having a press fit balljoint insert put into the "pipe end" wouldn't be advisable due to the required material thickness needed to hold the balljoint in place. You'd want at least a 3/8" surround holding it in, preferably a cast iron link to maintain the "press fit".

I think I'd fall into the prefer a balljoint category. I'd already be degrading ride quality with a poly front bushing over stock setup and stepping up to a cross-axis ball-joint should be very similar in noise transmission to the poly bushing. I'd take the cross-axis balljoint for durability purposes at that point, only problem being that if they don't last very long, you'd have to replace the entire arm, versus replacing a removable bushing unless they were somehow rebuildable (ballistic fab weld on balljoints are rebuildable).

I think If Max offered this welded on to the front end
128186

http://www.ballisticfabrication.com/263-Heavy-Duty-Ballistic-Joint_p_1226.html
it would be the perfect trailing arm.

Keep up the good work Creative Steel. We appreciate the never ending options that you are developing for this platform!

FuzzyLogic
07-21-13, 02:20 PM
I have those Ballistic Fabrication joints on my Killernoodle trailing arms. Zero difference in noise over stock. If Creative Steel did those, it'd be a significant upgrade. Plus they're rebuildable and greasable.

heavymetals
07-21-13, 06:15 PM
FYI, most of the noise complaints from BMR installations (toe rods & trailing arms) are the result of a funky install.

I had to use fender washers of various thickness to shim them up to where the bolts could be properly torqued without distorting the metal.

MotorMounts
07-21-13, 06:35 PM
I'll order a few sets tomorrow. I think these joints are a great option but don't forget that the price to manufacture the arms just went up $74 +frt a set. Just like you guys I analyze costs. The arms I had in my car for three years worked just fine with the original set of poly bushings. I'm just sayin'...........Sounds like we will be making two models available. Choice is good.

AAIIIC
07-21-13, 06:50 PM
The old MAP trailing arms used a similar part from Rusty's Offroad. You can see them here - http://www.rustysoffroad.com/builder-parts/threaded-forged-ends-inserts/. I'm too lazy to look up the Ballistic Fab pricing, but might be worth comparing. I wouldn't be surprised if there are other options out there, too.

BradCTSV
07-22-13, 01:45 AM
Thanks for producing these trailing arms and I like your option for the Ballistic joint. Can you offer the arms in black powdercoat?
I look forward to info on your toe rods....would you consider making these with spherical bushings on both ends?

liqidvenom
07-23-13, 02:22 AM
I'm kind of leaning the same way with the front bushing. Ideally you don't want very much resistance for the up and down rotation this joint sees. You don't want it too soft either or else you'll end up with increased wheel hop and poor wheel stability. I'd be curious to see how easy it is to deflect a 70A poly bushing with the long moment arm of this trailing arm. I'm assuming it moves fine but I'm not sure how long the bushing will last from a durability perspective since poly isn't as soft and forgiving as rubber. Typically a bushing setup of this nature isn't meant to see more than 5 of side to side deflection.

Another thing to consider when replacing a rubber bushing with a poly bushing or cross-axis ball-joint is that it will definitely transmit more road noise into the cabin. For some this is a deal breaker, for others not an issue. Anybody that has a BMR trailing arm can comment on this as it should feel the same as what Max is offering, just have less wheel clearance.

Keeping in mind if enough of us want a cross-axis ball-joint in place of the poly bushing Max said in his original post he was willing to consider it based on interest. From a construction standpoint it shouldn't be too difficult to replace that captured bushing end on a jig with a self contained balljoint to weld on. Having a press fit balljoint insert put into the "pipe end" wouldn't be advisable due to the required material thickness needed to hold the balljoint in place. You'd want at least a 3/8" surround holding it in, preferably a cast iron link to maintain the "press fit".

I think I'd fall into the prefer a balljoint category. I'd already be degrading ride quality with a poly front bushing over stock setup and stepping up to a cross-axis ball-joint should be very similar in noise transmission to the poly bushing. I'd take the cross-axis balljoint for durability purposes at that point, only problem being that if they don't last very long, you'd have to replace the entire arm, versus replacing a removable bushing unless they were somehow rebuildable (ballistic fab weld on balljoints are rebuildable).

I think If Max offered this welded on to the front end
128186

http://www.ballisticfabrication.com/263-Heavy-Duty-Ballistic-Joint_p_1226.html
it would be the perfect trailing arm.

Keep up the good work Creative Steel. We appreciate the never ending options that you are developing for this platform!


honestly this is good and constructive criticism.

MotorMounts
07-23-13, 11:22 AM
honestly this is good and constructive criticism.

Agreed........... I ordered 6 of the spherical bearings form Rusty's Off Road. That's enough for 3 sets of arms. I know that's not a lot but I don't need more money sitting on the shelf. I don't normally pre-sell product, but when these three sets are spoken for and paid for I will order more. The new price for the arms with the spherical bearings in the end towards the front of the car is $425 without the rear knuckle bushings. With the rear greaseable bushing is $485. We found that these arms will fit in one of the post offices large flat rate boxes, I will pay the shipping. So the above prices include shipping.

Another scenario for these arms is a prepaid group purchase. If you guys can put together 12 guys that are willing to prepay, I'll sell the arms for $365 shipped with the spherical bearings and the greaseable 90A knuckle bushings. When 10 guys have prepaid I will order the bearings and start bending the tubes.

ctsv247
07-23-13, 12:30 PM
In order to save you prospect clients a little search time and better promote your product, what tire sizes will these arms allow for and will we be able to use this much clearance without hitting something else?

Thanks for your efforts at producing quality products! I damn sure couldn't make these myself for what your selling them for, especially with the r&d time required.

MotorMounts
07-23-13, 04:44 PM
OK, This has been proven to be one of those topics that will have everybody and their dog chiming in with their 2 cents and no one will agree with anyone else.

The only information I can provide is from my car. It has the the stock wheels and tire size (245-45-18). It is at the stock ride height, which means it is not lowered. The stock wheels are 8 1/2" wide and the sidewall bulge of the 245-45-18 tires is only about 1/4-3/8" beyond the edge of the wheel. The next interference (after the stock trailing arm) will be the wheel hitting the lower control arm.

129018

With a slight bending of an un-welded section (in yellow) at the rear of the lower control arm an 1-1/2" of added width to the inside of the wheel can be had for a total of 10". No bending of the arm would be a close fit but there is a bit of modification available if required on a per vehicle basis. The next interference after the control arm will be the shock (near the top of the wheel), that clearance is 2" with no modification.

I'm not going to get in to what specific tire sizes will fit. Each of our cars is a bit different so I will be best for each person to validate their own measurements. That is not meant to be a disclaimer, it's just not that hard to crawl under your car with a tape measure to check clearances.

ctsv247
07-23-13, 07:40 PM
That's a worthy investment!

----------

Thanks!

MotorMounts
07-24-13, 09:25 AM
That's a worthy investment!



Don't tell Fuzzy

DavidBoren
07-24-13, 04:39 PM
That is a killer deal for the group buy. I wish I wasnt such a broke-@$$. :(

I like the thought of running 305's in the rear, though. Maybe some day.

rand49er
07-24-13, 06:06 PM
Coming to this thread a bit late, but speaking as someone who paid for the killernoodle trailing arms, these do seem to be a bit pricey.

From a purely business perspective, pricing is the same as why a dog licks his privates ... because he can. You can say anything you want about it, but until somebody else gets into the game, pricing comes down to a business decision by Creative Steel.

Killer, even though he strung a bunch of guys along for months and months, has apparently abandoned us. Had he been making a crap-load of money here with his arms, he would still be around, and CS would be looking at a much different pricing scenario.

I know I'm just pointing out what's as obvious as a fart in church, but it's my $0.02.

ctsv247
07-25-13, 10:18 AM
Cheap usually means getting strung along for months and months only to get abandoned in the end. You get what you pay for.....

sssnake
07-25-13, 12:17 PM
Good, fast, cheap. Pick two

lollygagger8
07-25-13, 12:44 PM
Good, fast, cheap. Pick two

Just how I like my dates.

nikdsctsv
07-25-13, 02:54 PM
So....who is organizing the group buy? Safe to say Fuzzy is out!

Max, what would the price be for the arms in a group buy without the greasable bushing as I already have the revshift bushings?

sssnake
07-25-13, 04:41 PM
Not up to leading the group buy bit I am interested. We just need someone to coordinate the buy.

Talyon
07-25-13, 04:43 PM
I will be having a set, please let me know when I can buy from the website or if a group buy happens. Thanks !

Lil421A
07-25-13, 05:07 PM
133k miles,On my 05 V slver, I have GC kit 500/550, 245/40/19f 19x8.5, 295/35r 19x10 ccw sp600 (Thanks for stepping up and picking up the slack) Making this Product. Received the CREATIVE STEEL trailing arms today, and having them Installed this weekend all redshift bushings,BMR Toe rods,McLeod RXT twin disc clutch.... Will post pics next week.... "He Who Hold the Gold Makes the Golden Rule"

MotorMounts
07-25-13, 09:06 PM
So....who is organizing the group buy? Safe to say Fuzzy is out!

Max, what would the price be for the arms in a group buy without the greasable bushing as I already have the revshift bushings?

Sounds like YOU are the Group Buy Leader (unless to can talk Fuzzy in to it?)

Group Buy Price w/o knuckle bushings $325


133k miles,On my 05 V slver, I have GC kit 500/550, 245/40/19f 19x8.5, 295/35r 19x10 ccw sp600 (Thanks for stepping up and picking up the slack) Making this Product. Received the CREATIVE STEEL trailing arms today, and having them Installed this weekend all redshift bushings,BMR Toe rods,McLeod RXT twin disc clutch.... Will post pics next week.... "He Who Hold the Gold Makes the Golden Rule"

Absolutely can't wait to see the pics.

jmargo
07-26-13, 03:58 PM
Now what about those tie rods ?

NCOGNITO
07-28-13, 08:27 AM
Max - Due to overwhelming response on the group buy, can we do more than 12 people or is that your limit?

nikdsctsv
07-28-13, 09:52 AM
Max, if we do take more I know of atleast 3 more who want in. So that question is totally up to you. I think there will have to be a stop somewhere but thats just me.

MotorMounts
07-28-13, 02:20 PM
Max - Due to overwhelming response on the group buy, can we do more than 12 people or is that your limit?

I will build more than the original 12 sets. Nik.....add some more slots to the bottom of that list. We can do a half down payment up front, then the other half before shipping. As soon as I have 10 guys call in with their down payment, that is when the door closes on how many sets will be made this time. So if you are on the fence and want in on this pricing don't drag your feet too long. When #10 calls in it's over.

Greg O.
07-29-13, 01:28 AM
what is the best rim and the widest tire one can put on the gen1 V....include negative and positive offset if necessry. thanks GREG O.

----------

What is the widwst rim and tire can one run with your new arms..10" rims?:banghead:

nikdsctsv
07-29-13, 12:11 PM
That is my hope. 10" wheel with a 305 drag radial. Here comes better 60' times.

Mistercoffee2
07-29-13, 10:01 PM
I will build more than the original 12 sets. Nik.....add some more slots to the bottom of that list. We can do a half down payment up front, then the other half before shipping. As soon as I have 10 guys call in with their down payment, that is when the door closes on how many sets will be made this time. So if you are on the fence and want in on this pricing don't drag your feet too long. When #10 calls in it's over.

Never mind, my bad.

jmargo
07-29-13, 11:54 PM
Now what about those tie rods ?

Que ?

03cobrarocks
07-30-13, 10:35 AM
I am looking into getting a v.. one of my first mods will be rims and tires. What is the absolute widest this mod will let me run if I plan on slightly lowering my car?

I want to get the ccw 505a's and cant decide if I should get 18x10 out back to be safe (This might even be pushing it I duno you tell me?) Or could I get away with a 18x11

Manofmetal01
07-30-13, 11:42 AM
I am looking into getting a v.. one of my first mods will be rims and tires. What is the absolute widest this mod will let me run if I plan on slightly lowering my car?

I want to get the ccw 505a's and cant decide if I should get 18x10 out back to be safe (This might even be pushing it I duno you tell me?) Or could I get away with a 18x11

Many guys sre running 19x10 in the rear and lowered.

sssnake
07-30-13, 12:23 PM
I am running 19 x 10

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I am running 19 x 10 wo modded trailing arms with no rubbing. I am hoping to get 11s on there with this mod. We'll see.

03cobrarocks
07-30-13, 12:36 PM
Many guys sre running 19x10 in the rear and lowered.

Thanks!

----------


I am running 19 x 10

----------

I am running 19 x 10 wo modded trailing arms with no rubbing. I am hoping to get 11s on there with this mod. We'll see.

Nice! You think I could order 18x10.5s and be safe? like before this mod? Or would that be a big gamble

sssnake
07-30-13, 05:36 PM
wo modification i don't see anyway possible to go wider than 10"

2007V
08-02-13, 01:16 AM
So where do we sign up for the group buy?

MotorMounts
08-02-13, 01:59 PM
So where do we sign up for the group buy?

Call Creative Steel to put down a deposit....you will be automatically put in the group buy. It's like magic.

Lil421A
08-13-13, 03:34 PM
Thank you for this product.. Just had - (New) Creative Steel Trailing Arms installed I have 19x10 295/35 (plenty) of room for more meat. 136098

MotorMounts
08-13-13, 05:42 PM
UPDATE on the project:


The tubes have BEEN cut, the gusset are cut, our super bad-ass new "CREATIVE STEEL logo" metal stamp will be here tomorrow (that we'll use to mark all our products with) I will stamp the gussets before forming and welding. The Johnny Joints will be here on Monday according to UPS.com. So that will be the day the actual fab work begins.

The request for the spherical bearings kinda caught me off guard. I hadn't done any research on the "Johnny Joints" so I didn't know which brand I wanted to use so we lost about a week while I waited for samples to arrive. Didn't feel comfortable spending $1000 -$1500 of your guys' money without seeing the merchandise first. I went with Rusty's joints. I liked the quality better than the other sample but knew that the "other" sample was made in USA (as advertised). Rusty didn't advertise that fact so I was in a bit of an ethical dilemma. Then I asked the secretary at Rusty's, she says they make them in house.........SOLD. I'm kinda old school on the "Made in USA" thing. I don't paying a bit more if I know I'm keeping one of ours out of the soup line.


Bottom line.... About two more weeks before product starts leaving here (powder coat will take a few days)


Could someone update the guys on the other forum. I'm not yet a vendor over there yet. Already got my "you know what" slapped for talking too much.

MotorMounts
08-20-13, 09:49 PM
UPDATE:

The tubes are bent, gussets are stamped and formed. Weld-Cut-Fab with begin tomorrow at Oh-Dark-Thirty. Oh yeah, the Johny Joints arrived yesterday as scheduled.

Over, Roger, Copy-That

BradCTSV
08-21-13, 01:11 AM
Max- Thanks for the update!

ls6v
08-27-13, 03:51 AM
Thank you for this product.. Just had - (New) Creative Steel Trailing Arms installed I have 19x10 295/35 (plenty) of room for more meat. 136098

How did you get arms before the rest of us? I was number 4 on the list...

MotorMounts
08-27-13, 06:32 PM
How did you get arms before the rest of us? I was number 4 on the list...

This is hilarious !!! "Hey, What the $%#@^% is going on here"?

"Why is Lil421A getting preferential treatment"?



He's not getting special treatment, he bought a set of the arms with the urethane bushings at the front end of the arms. We've had those available since I first posted that we were making these arms. The group buy is for arms with the spherical bearings at the front end of the arms.


UPDATE :

The arms are finished being fabbed and will go to powder coat tomorrow or the next day. I want to send a few sets of toe rods with this load for the guys that wanted them in black.

ls6v
08-27-13, 07:22 PM
[QUOTE=MotorMounts;10829538]This is hilarious !!! "Hey, What the $%#@^% is going on here"?

"Why is Lil421A getting preferential treatment"?



I felt like the only kid at the party without a cupcake for a second there, I'm pumped to get my arms and it's reduced me to an 8 yr old...lay off me dammit lol

barrok69
08-27-13, 11:30 PM
This is hilarious !!! "Hey, What the $%#@^% is going on here"?

"Why is Lil421A getting preferential treatment"?



He's not getting special treatment, he bought a set of the arms with the urethane bushings at the front end of the arms. We've had those available since I first posted that we were making these arms. The group buy is for arms with the spherical bearings at the front end of the arms.


UPDATE :

The arms are finished being fabbed and will go to powder coat tomorrow or the next day. I want to send a few sets of toe rods with this load for the guys that wanted them in black.

**Cough** **Cough** You should send them to the guys that wanted them red ! :)

barrok69
09-11-13, 07:43 AM
Just got a call from Kristie last night. My arms should arrive in a couple days. yay!

MotorMounts
09-11-13, 11:21 AM
UPDATE:

Trailing arm sets have started to ship.

We shipped 8 sets yesterday to:

Nikds5, Vmapper, sssnake, stick1975, philistine, bradctsv, barrock69, and B_rocks_it.

We will put another load of them in the mail today and will update tonight or tomorrow morning.

V-twin
09-12-13, 12:47 AM
I'm a little late here... guessing the group buy is over?

MotorMounts
09-12-13, 03:27 PM
Here's the list of guys that got trailing arms shipped yesterday.

RavenLS6, ManofMetal, Dmax04V, Britt29, IDriveaV.


To answer the previous question....The group buy is over, but we have a few sets of trailing arms with urethane bushings in the front end of the arm, not the spherical bushings like the group buy version. We have the urethane bushing version in our car and had our prototypes in the car for three years. No problems to report.

barrok69
09-12-13, 08:05 PM
Yesssss !!! They look great. I'm hoping to get them installed this weekend.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240/barrok69/balljoints_zps89cdf0f3.jpeg (http://s169.photobucket.com/user/barrok69/media/balljoints_zps89cdf0f3.jpeg.html)

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240/barrok69/greasablebushings_zps6b87a6c6.jpeg (http://s169.photobucket.com/user/barrok69/media/greasablebushings_zps6b87a6c6.jpeg.html)

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240/barrok69/ccfb2e72-a6b2-447b-88a6-499d33e756d1_zps60010095.jpg (http://s169.photobucket.com/user/barrok69/media/ccfb2e72-a6b2-447b-88a6-499d33e756d1_zps60010095.jpg.html)

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240/barrok69/3ab6490e-8e60-4d34-bcff-27b077281a63_zps6d32c33d.jpg (http://s169.photobucket.com/user/barrok69/media/3ab6490e-8e60-4d34-bcff-27b077281a63_zps6d32c33d.jpg.html)

MotorMounts
09-12-13, 08:33 PM
That was some fast shipping. Looks like they made it intact.

Trailing arms just went to the post office for the following:

DK, 1BadCTS, Dtrain and ItsaV.


If you are part of the group buy on these trailing arms and you are not listed on any of the three previous lists YOU need to call us. We either need final payment or your color choice or if you want the hub bushings included.

barrok69
09-12-13, 08:37 PM
That was some fast shipping. Looks like they made it intact.

Trailing arms just went to the post office for the following:

DK, 1BadCTS, Dtrain and ItsaV.


If you are part of the group buy on these trailing arms and you are not listed on any of the three previous lists YOU need to call us. We either need final payment or your color choice or if you want the hub bushings included.

I was surprised to see them today! The box was ripped a bit from the weight of the arms but the impervious bubble wrap/plastic wrap job you guys did held up tremendously. Thanks again!

philistine
09-12-13, 09:27 PM
Yeah just got mine today too...pretty badass!

sssnake
09-13-13, 12:32 PM
Mine arrived as well.

philistine
09-13-13, 09:22 PM
I posted this on LS1tech and in the general section with my "pig in slop" mega do everything and lots of trial/error and bolt on stuff thread.


Creative Steel Trailing Arms came in. You only need 4 spacers, I got an extra pack.

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-09-12202628_zpsbc264dfd.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-09-12202628_zpsbc264dfd.jpg.html)

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-09-12223741_zpscde3bf3e.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-09-12223741_zpscde3bf3e.jpg.html)

Here's a comparison:
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-09-13154114_zps6e9768c5.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-09-13154114_zps6e9768c5.jpg.html)

The OEM bushing came out in about 1-2 minutes. Spray it with PB Blaster and push it out with a screwdriver.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-09-13140521_zps54b09daa.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-09-13140521_zps54b09daa.jpg.html)

They look pretty good installed:
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-09-13154127_zps880029b1.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-09-13154127_zps880029b1.jpg.html)

Notice the spacers top and bottom, torque to 66[ft-lb]
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-09-13154150_zpse202a7c2.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-09-13154150_zpse202a7c2.jpg.html)

Torque this one to 129 [ft-lb]. Notice the bushings are not squished and bulged.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-09-13154214_zps632cf91f.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-09-13154214_zps632cf91f.jpg.html)

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t404/jaysenbaker/cts-v_misc/2013-09-13154841_zpsafa11dee.jpg (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/jaysenbaker/media/cts-v_misc/2013-09-13154841_zpsafa11dee.jpg.html)

BradCTSV
09-13-13, 11:32 PM
I got mine on Thursday and they will be installed Monday. Looking forward to driving!

Manofmetal01
09-19-13, 09:38 PM
I'm beginning to realize I need to drop the cradle to get to and remove the forward most bolt. Has anyone had luck any other way? Otherwise looks like ill be continuing bright and early.

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the impervious bubble wrap/plastic wrap job

More like impenetrable. Took me a good 10 mins to get them out! Why weld your parts together when you can just wrap em like this!?

AAIIIC
09-20-13, 08:37 AM
I'm beginning to realize I need to drop the cradle to get to and remove the forward most bolt. Has anyone had luck any other way? Otherwise looks like ill be continuing bright and early.
I don't remember who it was, or if they're even on the forums anymore, but I remember one knucklehead cut holes from above so he could access the bolts. :nono:

And the bolts are long enough that you can't feed them in from the bottom when you put things back together - the extra length above the subframe will contact the frame rail above it.

CSTech
09-20-13, 11:26 AM
I'm beginning to realize I need to drop the cradle to get to and remove the forward most bolt. Has anyone had luck any other way? Otherwise looks like ill be continuing bright and early.[COLOR="Silver"]


You should be able to disconnect the shock, jack the body of the vehicle up, loosen the rear sub-frame bolts a ways but still have them in, and then take out the front sub-frame bolts. The cradle should come down enough to get the front trailing arm bolt out.

Manofmetal01
09-20-13, 12:46 PM
Yes, I found an old MAPerformance thread for installing trailing arms, shouldn't be too much hassle at all.

Also read of guys cutting down that bolt and installing it from the bottom...in my industry, you never install a bolt from the bottom.

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How about removal of the bushing without removing the control arm? That's where I'm at now and its getting frustrating haha

AAIIIC
09-20-13, 12:57 PM
Which bushing? The one that's in the bottom of the rear knuckle? It's very squishy, comes out pretty easily - I just used a bigass C-clamp to push it out.

Manofmetal01
09-20-13, 01:04 PM
Ill try that, it would be easier if I was off the ground more. I'm not a small person by any means :)

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Did you remove the rotor to do this, that'll probably make my life easier!

BradCTSV
09-21-13, 12:20 AM
I just got my trailing arms and toe rods in the V and noticed an immediate benefit in the way the chassis responds to bumps in a turn...the rearend stays much more planted so the shocks can do the work. I'm looking forward to driving on my favorite twisty roads to feel the full effect.

The workmanship and design is very well done!

AAIIIC
09-21-13, 09:48 AM
Did you remove the rotor to do this, that'll probably make my life easier!
I'm pretty sure that I did remove the rotor. I used the big C-clamp, and then had a chunk of exhaust piping or something like that as a receiver for the bushing to be pushed into.

Manofmetal01
09-21-13, 04:22 PM
I ended up just drilling two holes through the rubber and then putting a vise grip on the sleeve and twisting it out. Pretty easy. Need to do some more driving now!

BradCTSV
09-22-13, 02:58 AM
Driving Feedback, trailing arms & toe rods: in 20 - 50mph twisty roads the rear is much more planted, less sideways shifting in the rear, I feel more of the vertical suspension travel when I accelerate out of the turns I feel more of the squatting of the rear...I have 64k miles on the stock trailing arms and toe rods so assuming I'm feeling a lot of the new bushing benefit. On high speed 60 - 80mph long steady carving turns when I turn-in the rear now feels much more confident in the way it carves with the front of the car....whereas before it felt like the rear was ever so slightly disconnected and I had to do slight steering inputs to keep the rear on-line. In an 80mph turn with a bump in the middle the rear just goes vertically up and down versus it used to go slightly diagonal so I'd have to catch a little with steering input. I went out after heavy rains so didn't want to push the cornering g's too much...I look forward to getting out in the dry to push the limits & feel if recovering from a slide will be easier.

Overall this is a great improvement!! Much more confidence inspiring to push toward the limit and much more solid feel in the rear. Only thing is now with more clearance at the backside of rear wheels...I'm tempted to order wider rims/tires!! :) I already have 9.5" ccw sp600's with hankook rs-3 275's I want to stuff wider tires up front.

Manofmetal01
09-22-13, 04:40 PM
What greaseis recommended for these and the tie rods? Do the ballistic joints need a different grease or everything the same?

FuzzyLogic
09-22-13, 06:19 PM
Any kind of moly grease should do well. If you want to get fancy, try Redline CV-2.

http://www.amazon.com/Red-Line-80402-Synthetic-Grease/dp/B000CPAEJA

MotorMounts
09-23-13, 12:36 PM
What greaseis recommended for these and the tie rods? Do the ballistic joints need a different grease or everything the same?

There is a lot of conflicting info on this subject. Just to be safe I would stick to any synthetic grease. I bought a cheap Harbor Freight grease gun and put a tube of the Energy Suspension Formula 5 in it that I have marked "bushings only". I'm not saying this is the best grease or lasts the longest between reapplications but since our products come with grease zerks it's real easy to give a bushing a pump of fresh lube as required. And we know the Formula 5 won't degrade the urethane. This was my attempt to keep it simple.

For the guys that got our trailing arms with the spherical bearing in the front end, here is the link to the replacement bushings if or when you need them. http://www.rustysoffroad.com/builder-parts/threaded-forged-ends-inserts/rustys-2-5-forged-flex-joint-race-kit.html