: ZDDP modifier.



RyRidesMotoX
07-18-13, 06:09 PM
Normally I use lucas. But when I picked up oil yesterday all they had was STP... Anyone use STP before? I got it anyways cuz I don't want to make a second trip if I don't need to. But if its shitty I'm not gonna use it.

And yea I hate shopping at Walmart as much as the next person but the 5 quart jug of Mobil1 is like $22 vs Napa which is $10 more

AAIIIC
07-19-13, 07:58 AM
Are you breaking in a new flat tappet motor?

Submariner409
07-19-13, 08:23 AM
You DO NOT need oil additives (based on a LOT of experience and the recommendations in your owner's manual) and FWIW, ZDDP "enhancers" are a very good way to kill a catalytic converter. Today's cat precious metals formulations are what caused the oil refiners/blenders to lower the ZDDP levels. Your engine uses roller cam followers - which is another reason you don't need to "juice' extra ZDDP.

But, from your car's description it would appear that you may not have cat(s) installed - or do you need them for California inspections ?

M5eater
07-19-13, 08:25 AM
And yea I hate shopping at Walmart as much as the next person but the 5 quart jug of Mobil1 is like $22 vs Napa which is $10 more
Nothing wrong with shopping wally-world for oil. Any sane person would. What I would not do, is use any kind of additive, at all. I have never heard, anyone, in any thread on BITOG, recommend an additive. They mess with the package already used in the oil, and lead to a lot of unknowns.

You know when I might use an additive? If the car burns a quart of oil every 500 miles and I planned to throw it in the scrap yard within a month.

HAMSTAR
07-19-13, 09:14 AM
My tuner, and a lot of other performance LS tuner-builders recommend Brad Penn 10W-40 race oil, which has the same high zinc content of the pre-cat days. If we are all running catted with the rear O2s turned off, catless or with test pipes, what's then concern about damage to the catalytic converter is a moot point, isn't it? Our motors can only benefit from the zinc.

RippyPartsDept
07-19-13, 09:40 AM
as I understand it (and correct me if I'm wrong) zinc is "sacrificial" and is one of the main factors in determining oil life as it "depletes"

so adding more would in theory increase your oil life but how would you know how much?

lollygagger8
07-19-13, 09:46 AM
Mobil 1, and done.

HAMSTAR
07-19-13, 09:53 AM
This is the stuff he recs, and which I am about to start running. Also recomended by a mechanic who worded on the CTS-VR.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009IFKG0W

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71GJl%2Byvx3L._SL1500_.jpg

M5eater
07-19-13, 10:37 AM
This is the stuff he recs, and which I am about to start running. Also recomended by a mechanic who worded on the CTS-VR.


Do you also own a CTS-VR engine? or anything close to it?

No?

Use whatever you want, it will make no measurable difference. Actually, a 40W will make your engine feel more sluggish, and brad-pen is a very heavy 40W oil on top of that.


My tuner, and a lot of other performance LS tuner-builders recommend Brad Penn 10W-40 race oil, which has the same high zinc content of the pre-cat days. If we are all running catted with the rear O2s turned off, catless or with test pipes, what's then concern about damage to the catalytic converter is a moot point, isn't it? Our motors can only benefit from the zinc.
ZDDP is not the only known anti-wear agent in existence, apart from the fact that it makes absolutely no difference in normal lubricant operation, people like it because it can be seen in cheap UOA's, manufactures like it because it's just plain cheap. That's the only reason it's still in use, because there are multiple other technologies out there that outperform ZDDP use which don't showup on a $35 UOA.

HAMSTAR
07-19-13, 10:45 AM
Do you know my engine or how I run it? No. Did you ignore the only obvious conclusion from my above statement-- that an experienced GM mechanic recommended this oil for my actual motor? Yes.

Did you stupidly interpret my statement to imply that I believe Zinc is the only important element in reducing wear? Yes.

Did you get up on the wrong side of bed today? I would hope so. Otherwise you are an ornery, dim-witted jerk that likes to jump to conclusions. I think that is just a great quality in a human being, by the way.

M5eater
07-19-13, 10:48 AM
Do you know my engine or how I run it? No. Did you ignore the only obvious conclusion from my above statement-- that an experienced GM mechanic recommended this oil for my actual motor? Yes.

Did you stupidly interpret my statement to imply that I believe Zinc is the only important element in reducing wear? Yes.

Did you get up on the wrong side of bed today? I would hope so. Otherwise you are an ornery, dim-witted jerk that likes to jump to conclusions. I think that is just a great quality in a human being, by the way.

Your bolt on LS has no use relation to a purpose built race-motor. You do not see sustained 6-8K RPM's or 280+ oil temps for 10 hours, you do not have it rebuilt every other race.

If you believe anything relating to his experience with that car applies to you, I have nothing else to comment on, except that you're living in a fantasy.

RyRidesMotoX
07-19-13, 11:22 AM
Damn well I see people get all uppity when people are anal retentive about preventive maintenance. I also change my air filter pretty much every oil change, or clean it if I'm using a reusable element. I always use ZDDP additive in my cars. Never had any issues with any kind of valve train wear. I started a long time ago with my old 55 Chevy and 59 ford pickups both with old flat tappet motors. Then I have been running it in every other car since. It increases the lubricity of the oil and goes a long way to prevent engine wear. Why not put some in? There isn't anything wrong if you don't want to run it. I used sulfer additive in my diesel trucks too. Did it need it? Probably not but the new ultra low sulfer fuels suck for injector pumps. It doesn't lubricate the fuel pump like the older diesel fuel or the off road 'red dye' diesel fuels.

Anyways I just got done with the oil change and used the STP, its seems thicker than i remember the lucas oil additive being but whatever. A lot of places recommend zddp modifiers after cam installations, especially since everyone tosses gigantic lobed cams in their car these days. No I don't have a flat tappet motor... No I don't spin it to 8k every day because the stock tune says so. But I drive the holy **** out of my car when I'm the only one in it. Especially if/when I'm at a track day. I guess its more of a mental band aide than anything. I guess I should have suspected that I'd be needing the flame suit for this.

RippyPartsDept
07-19-13, 11:36 AM
I guess I should have suspected that I'd be needing the flame suit for this.

yes... the infamous oil war's lesser known cousin ... the oil additive war

MoistCabbage
07-19-13, 11:46 AM
Question: Has anyone here, NOT using a ZDDP modifier, or high ZDDP oil, ever had any type of engine failure, or excess bearing wear, due directly to inferior lubrication.

RyRidesMotoX
07-19-13, 12:02 PM
Question: Has anyone here, NOT using a ZDDP modifier, or high ZDDP oil, ever had any type of engine failure, or excess bearing wear, due directly to inferior lubrication.

No. Probably not on these cars. But that isn't the point. I don't go trolling other peoples threads. I was seeing if anyone had ever used it, since it was the only one on the shelves the other day. I guess mutual respect is not shown even amongst adults on forums anymore. Seriously the children on the Cobalt forums, I expect it from them. But not from people here. Oh well.

----------




yes... the infamous oil war's lesser known cousin ... the oil additive war

Haha right... Or the gas station war... Oh I use shell by the way... Or chevron. But that pretty much it unless I'm in a desert wasteland and there are only other gas stations. Flame suit on. Now... Protection level 90000000

mberisha
07-19-13, 12:26 PM
:food-snacking:

Stepside
07-20-13, 01:21 AM
Question: Has anyone here, NOT using a ZDDP modifier, or high ZDDP oil, ever had any type of engine failure, or excess bearing wear, due directly to inferior lubrication.

Good Point . . and Zinc Dialkyl Dithiophosphate is in most all oil.
It has just been reduced over the years because, catalytic convertors can become coated or so 'they' say.
Although, I have personally never had to replace a 'cat', and always passed State inspection, using oil with :shhh:1300ppm as opposed to the normal (today) of 600ppm to 800ppm.
It is a good anti-wear / antioxidant which helps prolong oil life.

RyRidesMotoX
07-20-13, 05:02 AM
The only issue (in my opinion) with using current of the shelf oil is that the emissions regulations seem to be making it worse as time goes on. I just put it in as a feel good item really. Does it do anything? Probably not, but it doesn't hurt anything, and why not prolong the life of the parts inside as much as possible. It just gives the valve train and all the bearings a nice comfortable place to live is all. Its pretty much fact that most oils have dropped zddp levels in recent decades in the name of protecting emission systems. I'm just putting in what they left out. Its like having cookies without a glass of milk... Can you eat em without milk? Sure... But it sucks lol

AAIIIC
07-20-13, 08:54 AM
I don't go trolling other peoples threads. I was seeing if anyone had ever used it, since it was the only one on the shelves the other day. I guess mutual respect is not shown even amongst adults on forums anymore.
The only disrepect I see in this thread is from a ZDDP user calling someone an "ornery, dim-witted jerk" (:lol:) because that someone tried to inject some tech into this thread.


The only issue (in my opinion) with using current of the shelf oil is that the emissions regulations seem to be making it worse as time goes on.
Making them worse how? More and more folks are coming to the realization that with modern motor oils not only do you not need to change your oil every 3000 miles, but that 10k or 15k can be fine. And we get that longer life despite the fact that the oils have been optimized for efficiency to gain that all-important (to the OEMs) extra last 0.5mpg in the EPA mileage ratings on the window sticker.


I just put it in as a feel good item really. Does it do anything? Probably not, but it doesn't hurt anything, and why not prolong the life of the parts inside as much as possible. It just gives the valve train and all the bearings a nice comfortable place to live is all. Its pretty much fact that most oils have dropped zddp levels in recent decades in the name of protecting emission systems. I'm just putting in what they left out.
I think Submariner409's point is simply that the engineers who create the "built-in" additive packages for today's motor oils have already put in what they "left out", so adding the ZDDP additive is superfluous.

I'm not anti-ZDDP. I'm certainly no master mechanic, but I've done a couple of engine replacements, and I use break-in additive and/or Joe Gibbs Racing break-in oil during the break-in of the new motors. Like you, I do it as a peace of mind kind of thing - it's probably not necessary, but it makes me feel better during that important first 1000mi or whatever. After that, though, I just don't see any benefit to it.

RyRidesMotoX
07-20-13, 12:20 PM
The only disrepect I see in this thread is from a ZDDP user calling someone an "ornery, dim-witted jerk" (:lol:) because that someone tried to inject some tech into this thread.

Making them worse how? More and more folks are coming to the realization that with modern motor oils not only do you not need to change your oil every 3000 miles, but that 10k or 15k can be fine. And we get that longer life despite the fact that the oils have been optimized for efficiency to gain that all-important (to the OEMs) extra last 0.5mpg in the EPA mileage ratings on the window sticker.

I think Submariner409's point is simply that the engineers who create the "built-in" additive packages for today's motor oils have already put in what they "left out", so adding the ZDDP additive is superfluous.

I'm not anti-ZDDP. I'm certainly no master mechanic, but I've done a couple of engine replacements, and I use break-in additive and/or Joe Gibbs Racing break-in oil during the break-in of the new motors. Like you, I do it as a peace of mind kind of thing - it's probably not necessary, but it makes me feel better during that important first 1000mi or whatever. After that, though, I just don't see any benefit to it.

I am not sure where I was being a jerk in the thread. I just read all my posts to confirm that but I may be slightly biased. In all honesty I agree with everything people are saying about not using the zddp. The oils that most companies are kicking out contain less and less zinc. That is a fairly large part in the lubrication of valve train components. I feel its similar to when they stopped using lead in fuel. The lead was a soft metal that would keep the hardened valves clean. However, with zddp, I have always used it, and I have always had a great record with motors even though I drive them real hard. Cabbage is right there is no way to confirm whether or not a motor or the valve train fails due to not using it that is why I agreed with him. And submariner is correct as well they do still put it in and the zinc is thought to cause cats to fail. But I'm not really worried about cats since I don't have the stockers anymore and if the current racing cats get messed up then I'd just throw in a cat less pipes. I'd rather have more protection than I need. Like I said its how I've always done it. Always, from day one with my first car to today, that's the way my dad started doing his cars in the 90s, like father like son I guess. And I'll probably have my little minion change the oil in his cars the same way when he gets old enough to start shifting gears instead of picking his nose lol. Cuz it always worked for me.

AAIIIC
07-20-13, 03:37 PM
I am not sure where I was being a jerk in the thread.
I didn't say you were a jerk; the bit I quoted was from HAMSTAR.

RyRidesMotoX
07-20-13, 09:42 PM
I didn't say you were a jerk; the bit I quoted was from HAMSTAR.

Oh gotcha... Well this thread went to shit anyways lol.

philistine
07-20-13, 11:02 PM
Well this thread went to shit anyways lol.

In that case, what are your thoughts on Amsoil? My uncle is a dealer so I can get directly from him. Currently I'm using Mobile 1 5W30.

RyRidesMotoX
07-20-13, 11:08 PM
I used it in my 6.5 diesel. I liked it. I sent a sample to be tested at 10k miles and they said it could go at least another 5k before the change... but diesel is a whole different animal. I use Mobil1 in my car, never had a problem, and of course the evil zddp addative in it.

philistine
07-20-13, 11:15 PM
Yeah I spend a lot of time in western PA and the farmers all use Amsoil in their equipment. I ignored ever using it but some still highly recommend it...I don't get it but oh well.

BigDaddy-V
07-20-13, 11:35 PM
I though Darkman uses Amsoil? Maybe not but I thought I read that somewhere.

BDV

RyRidesMotoX
07-20-13, 11:48 PM
Yeah I spend a lot of time in western PA and the farmers all use Amsoil in their equipment. I ignored ever using it but some still highly recommend it...I don't get it but oh well.

Yea I liked it, never had a problem. I think my uncle uses it in our farm equipment in Oregon but I don't know for sure so I can't comment on it. I would get it but it is so much easier to just run to walmart and get Mobil1 for $22 for a 5qt jug.