: Manual -vs- Automatic Transmission



Allante North *
02-06-03, 12:03 PM
I guess I'm a bit different in that I much prefer shifting gears. I drive off road quite a bit and my thinking is that I am less likely to get stuck with manual. I also prefer manual transmission in more high performance vehicles. I grew up with mostly automatics and there is just something about shifting gears that I like better. I can understand your point though. My favorite saying is "Thats why they make chocolate and vanilla" we get to choose what we want.

kcnewell
02-06-03, 01:29 PM
Oh yeah! I'm obviously an exception to the rule. Most go fast guys seem to prefer manual trannys! I just have a thing about it, Sort of my own personal demon....So to speak! LOL!

elwesso
02-06-03, 03:25 PM
Personally, I think automatics are better. 20 years ago, I wouldnt have gotten an auto. But now we are in the world of 6speed automatics. I would rather let the tranny do the thinking while I drive. I definitely want to get a car someday that has the tiptronic. Unfortunately, they only offer it on expensive imports and **gasp** chryslers. I have seen on some BMWs they have a thing that lets you shift through the gears. That is pretty cool.

the Sandman
02-06-03, 03:40 PM
The BMW SMG (sequential Manual Gearbox) is *not* an automatic transmission. It's a manual transmission with hydraulic actuators that take care of the clutch for you and allow you (or the car) to decide when to shift. Here's a better description:

Sequential Manual Gearbox (SMG)
Includes Sequential (semi-automatic) and Automated (fully automatic) mode actuation of a 6-speed manual transmission and rear park distance control (PDC). Sequential mode requires driver input for sequential up- or downshifts, done with the floor console-mounted shift lever or steering wheel-mounted shift paddles. When a driver selects Automated mode, the transmission shifts automatically; no driver input is needed. There is no clutch pedal with this transmission, since the system automatically engages/disengages the clutch.Ferrari also offers a tranny like this.

This is a good topic - can we split it off?

the Sandman
02-06-03, 03:43 PM
Oh, BTW, it's the BMW M3's with the SMG that are blowing their engines up.

elwesso
02-06-03, 03:45 PM
go ahead, your the moderator. Just put it in general section.

BTW, i was referring to the older BMWs. I dont know much about BMWs, but i have rode in a few (not too many that ritzy in indiana). I can remember 1 time riding in a 840 (awesome car), that there was a slider that you could move up or down to make it go into auto or "manual". With the manual, you would start at the bottom (1) and work your way up. I think it only had a 4 speed

the Sandman
02-06-03, 04:00 PM
go ahead, your the moderator. Just put it in general section. In this Forum I'm just a member (i.e. no Admin privileges). Allante North * or Sal would need to split it off.

BTW, i was referring to the older BMWs. I dont know much about BMWs, but i have rode in a few (not too many that ritzy in indiana). I can remember 1 time riding in a 840 (awesome car), that there was a slider that you could move up or down to make it go into auto or "manual". With the manual, you would start at the bottom (1) and work your way up. I think it only had a 4 speed [/B]OK, got it.

elwesso
02-06-03, 04:07 PM
Oh im sorry, i thought it was allante n* that was responding. Just write him up and we can have him split it.

the Sandman
02-06-03, 04:41 PM
Has anyone driven a BMW or Ferrari with self-shifting manual tranny?

There was a time in my youth when I would never have driven an automatic, but now that I'm more mature, and the auto trannies are better, I like 'em just fine. Not sure which I would opt for given a choice.

My Syclone and Typhoon are both way faster with automatics than they would be with manuals.

Allante North *
02-06-03, 04:47 PM
Never driven any vehicle with the triptronic transmission, but I would love to. I wonder if they are similar to the old dual gate Hurst His and Her's that allow you to select either full automatic or semi-manual. I was looking at a BMW when I bought the Allante, and the triptronic was an option that I was leaning towards. I love manual, but my wife is more fond of the automatic. I thought it would be a nice compromise.

Dead Sled
02-06-03, 04:49 PM
I have a thing for shifting my own gears too. but there are also many advantages to autos. like I dont always have 3 feet

elwesso
02-06-03, 05:30 PM
Personally, i think that autos are faster. They always shift presisely, and mostly at the right time. When the human is doing it, there is much more chance that you would miss a gear, kill it, etc. In these days, automatics are getting better, and i believe will make the manual obsolete. Especially with the development of VTi tranny. It uses a pulleys and a belt to make essentially an unlimited amount of gear ratios. While this still needs development, it is a step in the right direction. My uncle drove one, and he said it felt weird, because the engine stayed at the same RPM the entire time, and you didnt have that shifting feel, which a lot of people wouldnt like.

As far as tiptronic, never had the chance to drive one. I heard that they are much better, because they give you everything good from a manual and everything good from an automatic.

Dead Sled
02-06-03, 09:20 PM
cars are getting way to far away from the driving expieriance itself. even though germans are the inovators of much of this I have the same beliefs as they do about driving. they cant understand why we need cup holders and car phones. you there to drive not eat, and read papers and make phone calls DRIVE!

but if im going to shift gears i want a real stick not all this shift by wire and junk I like mechanical connections. they're taking the driving out of driving

elwesso
02-06-03, 09:24 PM
I disagree. I think that shift by wire and other things like that make driving easier and more enjoyable.

Dead Sled
02-06-03, 09:27 PM
I guess Im "old school" I like being a part of what my car does, more than go, stop, and turn

elwesso
02-06-03, 09:48 PM
Yeah, i still like to be involved in the cars operation, but i think there is a medium between too much involvement and not enough. Some of these high tech cars make it so all you literally have to do is start it, put it in gear, put gas in it, oil it and drive it. No other stuff required. I like to feel in my hands and the seat of my pants the shift from 1st and 2nd gear, but i dont need to be the one clutching, shifting, etc. If the car can do taht much, then im happy. I also like the speed assist steering. I have driven a car with it, and it really makes it much easier, and it doesnt take away from the feel.

Devil_concours
02-06-03, 10:39 PM
REAL SMG is faster than both manual and automatic. It's used in a lot of track racing applications.
On M3 with smg, there are multiple mode you can choose from and fastest manual mode will shift so quick you will never ever put it in that mode again.
Less than handful of cars have real smg and most of them are priced above 50k at least.


edit: I forgot to add that most tiptronic, auto stick doesn't allow you to hold redline like real manual and smg does.

Dead Sled
02-06-03, 11:01 PM
I guess I like the 'boxes in like rally cars, and the paddles in the ultra fast Italian cars look fun

Devil_concours
02-06-03, 11:03 PM
Originally posted by Dead Sled
I guess I like the 'boxes in like rally cars, and the paddles in the ultra fast Italian cars look fun

they are both sequential manuals. F1 cars use em, and a lot of drag cars are smg as well.

Dead Sled
02-06-03, 11:11 PM
I know the Lenco would be my choice in a drag car :D

BeelzeBob
02-07-03, 08:02 AM
Some automatics are faster than sticks - f-bodies, for example. For the most part, the main advantage to a stick was the extra gear - that allowed bigger gears (ie. 373 instead of 323). Now with 6 speed automatics, that's all changing..

Tiptronics are okay. But like mentioned above, you can't hold redline. It'll shift at that point FOR you. It's really no big deal.. There's really no more excitement than if you just kept it in first and shifted manually with your regular shifter. I think it's a big waste, really.. I THINK the least expensive car you can buy with tiptronic is made by Volkswagen...

Devil_concours
02-07-03, 11:01 AM
what about the fact that in manual gear changes are quicker than automatic/tiptronic?
SMG is proven to be faster than both auto and manual. Maybe the v-series will come with smg

*off topic* this guy had a ferrari 360modena f1 at a local mall. We wanted him to rev his engine but he couldn't figure out how to put the car in neutral. LOL :D (has f1/smg gear box)

BeelzeBob
02-07-03, 11:23 AM
Shift kit...

Brett
02-07-03, 11:41 AM
The thing about manuals is if you dont know how to use it correctly then your car will be slower...I had a 99 auto vette that would blow away my friends 01 6speed... he never could get it right...as far as the M3 SMG that is an awesome trans...almost makes it worth buying that car...but a little small for me...which is my other problem with manuals...im too damn tall so it makes it hard for me to fit in a car in the first place...then you throw in a third pedal and it gets really cramped

Brett
02-07-03, 11:43 AM
oh and if the v-series have SMG...not some quasi manual tiptronic....then there is no doubt i will own one

elwesso
02-07-03, 05:30 PM
are you talking about the vti tranny by GM?

Brett
02-07-03, 05:37 PM
i was talking about a sequential manual like the M3 has...im not sure if GM even has one, but the do supply other manuals to BMW so they must be able to figure it out...a sequential gearbox in a cts like the one in the M3 would be AWESOME

elwesso
02-07-03, 05:53 PM
TMK, GM doesnt have one. I think BMW makes all its own parts, but now sure on that one. It would be really cool to put a sequential on the northstar (6spd would be GOLDEN)

Brett
02-07-03, 05:59 PM
i believe the regular 6 speed in the 3 and 5 series is made by GM...this irks alot of people on BMW boards...ive seen it mentioned often but of course have no link

Brett
02-07-03, 06:05 PM
my mistake its the automatic...the bimmer and cts have the same trans....its about halfway down the page

http://www.bullz-eye.com/carreviews/2002/cadillaccts.htm

Devil_concours
02-07-03, 06:49 PM
what about the new tranny they are putting in the new gtp? is that a smg or auto stick?

Dead Sled
02-07-03, 06:56 PM
what it comes down to for me is if I can get a car or truck with a stick I would wilthout flinching

elwesso
02-07-03, 07:36 PM
I wouldnt personally get a stick, because I am not good enough at it, although i dont really have a lot of experience driving sticks. Not something ive had to worry about.

Brett
02-07-03, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by Devil_concours
what about the new tranny they are putting in the new gtp? is that a smg or auto stick?


I would guess its just an auto/stick...i have not seen or heard of an SMG other than BMW and Ferrari...my post responding to the CTS-V with SMG was wishful thinking. Also its 2800bucks extra on an already expensive M3 and 10k more on the Ferrari so I doubt from a cost perspective a GTP would be avaialble with one...but keep in mind im far from an expert i just read alot of magazines.

elwesso
02-07-03, 07:40 PM
They are on porches, also. My aunt has one (2001 carrera, 1100miles) and TMK it has one. I am really not up to date on these trannys, or any of that kind of stuff.

Brett
02-07-03, 07:48 PM
The one on the Porsche is probably a tiptronic, i dont believe porsche has any SMG, although we're probably splitting hairs here. The ferrari and BMW smg's are based on F1 trannys and work almost exactly like one...in the case of the ferrari it even has the steering wheel paddles. Although this does seem to be a very gray area.

Tiptronic and SMG: both have auto mode
Tiptronic and SMG: both have manual mode

Maybe there is someone with a little more expertise that can clear this up. They are both vastly superior to something like a Chrysler autostick, which is basically just moving the shifter thru the gears...i can do that in my sls if i wanted to

Brett
02-07-03, 07:50 PM
also i have riden in an smg M3 and a 911 tip, the m3 trans is the best trans ive ever seen imho.

elwesso
02-07-03, 07:53 PM
I have yet to ride in any car that has an outstanding tranny. Although, down in florida, there is probably more of those kind of cars around. Indiana doesnt exactly have what you would call exotic cars (the most exotic car i have seen in town is an Allante, pretty lame)

Brett
02-07-03, 07:56 PM
you know i guess the best way to put it is the SMG is a manual trans that has an auto mode...and the tiptronic is an automatic trans that you can shift yourself...the smg has no torque converter and the tiptronic does

elwesso
02-07-03, 07:59 PM
OK, i think i understand better. You obviously know your stuff, or read a LOT of magazines!

Dead Sled
02-07-03, 09:15 PM
bahh just get an Allison Auto :D

Devil_concours
02-07-03, 10:47 PM
I know it's a high load bullet proof tranny but how are they on racing/go fast applications?

elwesso
02-08-03, 09:33 AM
If I understand correctly, the use almost the exact same tranny on the F1 cars (F1 versions are probably beefed up more). but i would assume that they would be able to handle anything that you threw its way.

Devil_concours
02-08-03, 11:01 AM
allison or the smg?

Brett
02-08-03, 11:18 AM
The Ferrari F1 trans in the 360 is essentially the trans out of their Formula One racer...minus a gear i beleive. I dont think any F1 car uses an Allison. Here is a link to some info on the Ferrari gearbox



http://www.edmunds.com/news/innovations/articles/46873/article.html

Devil_concours
02-08-03, 11:22 AM
basically most real smgs are proven bullet proof gear boxes?

Brett
02-08-03, 11:38 AM
Originally posted by Devil_concours
basically most real smgs are proven bullet proof gear boxes?

They are definitely the most technologically advanced and most expensive transmissions. And even a Ferrari 360 is gonna have a tough time blowing a trans used in Formula One. I dont know if BMW has found a link to the M3 engine problem and the SMG, but i have not heard anything but great things about it. Manuals are usually more durable than autos...i guess it comes down to the mechanism that works the "clutch", but I believe parts used in F1 are generally some of the best in the world.

Devil_concours
02-08-03, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by Brett
I dont know if BMW has found a link to the M3 engine problem and the SMG

well i heard that bad engine problem on m3 only applied to models produced within 2month period. I guess they did find the issue before it got out of hand.

Brett
02-08-03, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by Devil_concours
well i heard that bad engine problem on m3 only applied to models produced within 2month period. I guess they did find the issue before it got out of hand.

This weeks autoweek maybe it was last weeks, said that BMW was extending engine warrantys on all 01,02 and possibly 03 M3's. The article inferred that they still are not sure what the problem is, and gave instructions for owners on "what not to do"...it was things like dont rev the engine in neutral, let it warm up properly before beating on it etc. they are probably just being careful, and as far as the warranty its probabaly good PR. makes you feel a little safer buying one regardless if there is really a problem

Devil_concours
02-08-03, 12:03 PM
Originally posted by Brett
This weeks autoweek maybe it was last weeks, said that BMW was extending engine warrantys on all 01,02 and possibly 03 M3's. The article inferred that they still are not sure what the problem is, and gave instructions for owners on "what not to do"...it was things like dont rev the engine in neutral, let it warm up properly before beating on it etc. they are probably just being careful, and as far as the warranty its probabaly good PR. makes you feel a little safer buying one regardless if there is really a problem

well m3 and m5 doesn't let you rev hard until the engine is fully warmed up. There is a function where your redline is down low and it will disappear little by little until the engine is fully warmed up.

Brett
02-08-03, 12:08 PM
it was Jan 27 issue of autoweek