: Very Loud Injectors



BlueAngel#07
07-09-13, 01:36 PM
123906
My dealer is convinced that my injectors are to blame for engine noise,
I have been told that even new northstars and other engines will make this noise, (sound s like damaged lifters..):farting: which the fact that these engines have rollers in that department....well could be right ,. at this point its just driving me nuts, I always used look at people whose cars made such noises and say, (what a shame that the owner didn't take better care of it). and now I see people looking at me that way....:want:

So my question is...How LOUD, is loud. somethin' wrong? Me thinks so...
and is extreme noise a sign that an injector is heading towards failure?:tard:

Wondering if i'm just going to have to live with it for the time being?

Superjim
07-09-13, 02:20 PM
The injectors in our cars are not the high pressure, Direct Injection type.
"NORMAL" noise for the injectors is very little.

The fans on my car are a good bit louder than any noise the engine makes...

MoistCabbage
07-09-13, 03:34 PM
:yeah:

Unless your head is under the hood, it's not the injectors you're hearing.

BlueAngel#07
07-09-13, 04:29 PM
OK, so my next guess is pulleys or belt tension pulley/wheel.. its funny how the techs can't here the noise when I can here from across the street:negative::bsflag: I am stumped at present...coil?...dirty throttle body or actually lifters? although I doubt the throttle body would make any sense,

funny thing is is the power curve is more than great, in fact it's "snappy" at throttle. only when at idle, only thing i can kinda here is ,(at a loss for a better way to say it) mechanical wobble in the idle, outside of the pots and pan klinkin' away, it's not showing up on the rpm dash needle which tends to make me wanna believe its external.

MoistCabbage
07-10-13, 12:47 AM
Can you upload a video of the noise?

Submariner409
07-10-13, 08:30 AM
"Pots & pans" ........... Whatever you're hearing, it isn't injectors. Cat heat shield, exhaust gasket, failing belt tensioner or idler pulley. Most fuel injectors require a mechanics stethoscope to even hear them - have you done that ??? From here it doesn't even seem that you have opened the hood - be daring: Look in the engine compartment.

If you can hear the noises "from across the street" then localizing the noise with the hood open and the engine cover removed should be a piece of cake.

Superjim
07-10-13, 10:19 AM
My guess based on the "Pots and Pans" description, is the idler pulley bearing...

BlueAngel#07
07-10-13, 04:19 PM
It's probably worse in my head than in real life,:bulging: these type thing eat at me like crazy...
and when I say from across the street it's more like 5-10 feet....i'm frustrated, at least til I track it down, which is bothering me the most.

I have had the hood up...(Thank you very much..):yup: but as you know there is no head room in the engine compartment. and is not above my skill level..:o
I never did buy the injector story btw,

As for digging, I just don't have the time at present to yank all the covers to look in depth.
was relying on dealer to give me some insight. the closest I can tell is that it is coming from the left side.
was just looking for some reassurance that the injector idea was crap...And with the pulsing in the noise that I hear
I am seriously lean towards the belt tensioner. Thx for the feedback.. I guess I'm trying to keep from saying what I fear... That it is coming from the bottom of the engine...

Submariner409
07-10-13, 04:29 PM
2007 model, commuter/pleasure vehicle. At 10,000 miles/year the car could have 60,000 miles on it - just the right amount for a water pump belt tensioner pulley replacement. IF it is bad, and IF it seizes it will turn a 1 hour $25 job into an all day $350 job.

"Left side" - from where - looking into the engine compartment from the radiator or looking from the driver's seat ? Passenger side or driver's side ?

Several How-to's in Cadillac Tech Tips. Water pump drive belt tensioner pictures in my albums............. Not saying that's your problem - just that it's one of several possibilities NOT related to the (quiet) injectors.

BlueAngel#07
07-10-13, 05:17 PM
2007 model, commuter/pleasure vehicle. At 10,000 miles/year the car could have 60,000 miles on it - just the right amount for a water pump belt tensioner pulley replacement. IF it is bad, and IF it seizes it will turn a 1 hour $25 job into an all day $350 job.

"Left side" - from where - looking into the engine compartment from the radiator or looking from the driver's seat ? Passenger side or driver's side ?

Several How-to's in Cadillac Tech Tips. Water pump drive belt tensioner pictures in my albums............. Not saying that's your problem - just that it's one of several possibilities NOT related to the (quiet) injectors.

From drivers seat...I just have a noisy valve train

Submariner409
07-10-13, 05:41 PM
Valve train noise - what oil and filter are you using, and do you follow the OLM for engine oil ??? Where, RIGHT NOW, is the oil level on the dipstick ???

Here is correct ........... <=== ADD XXXXXXXXXXX OPERATING RANGE ===============oo======================O

Cadillac Cust Svc
07-10-13, 05:55 PM
It's probably worse in my head than in real life,:bulging: these type thing eat at me like crazy...
and when I say from across the street it's more like 5-10 feet....i'm frustrated, at least til I track it down, which is bothering me the most.

I have had the hood up...(Thank you very much..):yup: but as you know there is no head room in the engine compartment. and is not above my skill level..:o
I never did buy the injector story btw,

As for digging, I just don't have the time at present to yank all the covers to look in depth.
was relying on dealer to give me some insight. the closest I can tell is that it is coming from the left side.
was just looking for some reassurance that the injector idea was crap...And with the pulsing in the noise that I hear
I am seriously lean towards the belt tensioner. Thx for the feedback.. I guess I'm trying to keep from saying what I fear... That it is coming from the bottom of the engine...

Hello BlueAngel#07,

I apologize that your DTS is making a loud noise and you do not agree with the dealership’s diagnosis of the fuel injectors being the cause. If you would like, I could contact them on your behalf to inquire about why they think it is the fuel injectors and not the belt tensioner like others have said. I could also set you up an appointment at another dealership for a second opinion if you would like. Please private message me if you are interested in this. Thank you very much for your time.

Gregory W.
Cadillac Customer Care

BlueAngel#07
07-10-13, 06:30 PM
Valve train noise - what oil and filter are you using, and do you follow the OLM for engine oil ??? Where, RIGHT NOW, is the oil level on the dipstick ???

Here is correct ........... <=== ADD XXXXXXXXXXX OPERATING RANGE ===============oo======================O

Have always used 5w 30-7 1/2 quarts just had it changed, will check it after it sits,

BlueAngel#07
07-13-13, 03:28 AM
Had some time, so I checked out the noise source..... Results.....

Bad lifter
But the worst part is that the majority of it is coming from the bottom end. Pretty sure I'm looking at a crank bearing.

Murphy's law I guess

I will try to upload a video If I can figure out how.
It is truly a sorry sight

MoistCabbage
07-13-13, 03:37 AM
Lifter and bearing noises are very different, and both very unlikely. How did you come to those conclusions?

BlueAngel#07
07-13-13, 04:21 AM
Lifter and bearing noises are very different, and both very unlikely. How did you come to those conclusions?

The engine is getting worse by the day, I thought torque converter at first but sound is turning to a knock slowly but surely, really won't know til I get lid off it, it's internal, Here's the vid,http://youtu.be/9mlpgacba0w

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Here's the top end,

http://youtu.be/_qxpfRp7TVs

If the crank bearing is going, it's going to mess up more than lifters, I suspect one caused the other, the light of a miracle is fading

New name.... Blue Devil .....lol

grullon10
07-13-13, 11:27 AM
I was having the same noise and it was the timming guides that were bad. That on the noise on the botton of the engine the other one on top by the egr valve is from the roller. My still make that noise what I do because I'm in livery service in new york and my car has over 220,000 mile I change the oil every 100hrs or 2000 miles and use a stp high mile oil treament. And noise is not that loud.

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And I use regular oil. I was using synthetic and belive or not it made the noise worse.

BlueAngel#07
07-13-13, 01:42 PM
I was having the same noise and it was the timming guides that were bad. That on the noise on the botton of the engine the other one on top by the egr valve is from the roller. My still make that noise what I do because I'm in livery service in new york and my car has over 220,000 mile I change the oil every 100hrs or 2000 miles and use a stp high mile oil treament. And noise is not that loud.

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And I use regular oil. I was using synthetic and belive or not it made the noise worse.

How did you find out that it was timing guides?

BlueAngel#07
07-13-13, 03:05 PM
But what is truly unbelievable is that the techs can't here all of the noise that anyone and everyone else that listens to it can. It's like they have been brainwashed to be ignorant to the obvious. That is not normal, I will never believe that it is, so why tell me it is, If I want to take time and or spend the money to diagnose and or have it repaired. I have general know how on the functions of a standard V8, Frankly it insults what intelligence I have, I don't appreciate being told I'm delusional while standing next a vehicle witnessing it do so, what happened to the customers point of view, or am I imagining the sounds in the video? And regardless of how petty the dealer thinks it is if I am willing to pay to have it done,,,,, then screw what they think, DO IT!

Submariner409
07-13-13, 03:18 PM
Worn timing chain guides or slippers usually exhibit a high pitched whine: The slippers on the 3 chain tensioners are mounted on steel faced hydraulic pistons - if the nylon face wears through the chain link end plates rub on the steel slipper - imagine a high speed dull bandsaw blade.

BlueAngel#07
07-13-13, 03:48 PM
Worn timing chain guides or slippers usually exhibit a high pitched whine: The slippers on the 3 chain tensioners are mounted on steel faced hydraulic pistons - if the nylon face wears through the chain link end plates rub on the steel slipper - imagine a high speed dull bandsaw blade.

I have only once heard an unexplained sound of such and moment of WTF went through the car, but stopped as suddenly as it started, could the guides make the type of noise in the video? And if it is the problem what is the worst that can happen left unattended ? Digging grooves, chain slippage ?

Submariner409
07-13-13, 04:38 PM
That sounds, from the frequency (times per second), like the cam follower hydraulic lash adjusters are "sticky". (and it's not loud)

Do you perform your own oil/filter changes ??? .......... and I'm assuming that you use an oil in the recommended 5W-30 viscosity rating .....and that the oil level is at the proper height, engine OFF, 5 minute draindown, level surface - Post #11.

Someone is going to post that I've lost my rocker, but try this: (It's a variant on the old quart of ATF in the engine oil).......... Drain off a quart or so of engine oil (messy job). Refill to the proper level with Marvel Mystery Oil (I can hear it coming .....) and drive the car for a week or so with some time at 65 - 70. On a convenient day, warm up the engine (10 mile drive), come home and do an oil/filter change with your favorite 5W-30 oil and a WIX 51522 filter.

Clicking gone, or at least tolerable ????

BlueAngel#07
07-13-13, 05:24 PM
That sounds, from the frequency (times per second), like the cam follower hydraulic lash adjusters are "sticky". (and it's not loud)

Do you perform your own oil/filter changes ??? .......... and I'm assuming that you use an oil in the recommended 5W-30 viscosity rating .....and that the oil level is at the proper height, engine OFF, 5 minute draindown, level surface - Post #11.

Someone is going to post that I've lost my rocker, but try this: (It's a variant on the old quart of ATF in the engine oil).......... Drain off a quart or so of engine oil (messy job). Refill to the proper level with Marvel Mystery Oil (I can hear it coming .....) and drive the car for a week or so with some time at 65 - 70. On a convenient day, warm up the engine (10 mile drive), come home and do an oil/filter change with your favorite 5W-30 oil and a WIX 51522 filter.

Clicking gone, or at least tolerable ????

I do when I have the time, as far as oil changes. The times per second is what made me think that it is two different problems, the top is twice the rate of the bottom. And the fact that it is getting louder with time
The phone I used to take the video muffles the sound. My ear just goes to odd sounds instinctually, it's much more pronounced at a stop in gear. I have a lot to learn about the 4.6 N* as I am planning to keep it. Not the old school stuff I am used to. Thx for the help,


At this point I will try it, what can it hurt,

Superjim
07-13-13, 07:00 PM
I have used Marvel Mystery Oil in the past with good results for noisy lifters...

grullon10
07-14-13, 02:50 AM
How I starred noticing that very time I change the oil it was comming out gray the chain was eating the metal of the guide and it was making the same noise under the car as your.

Submariner409
07-14-13, 08:53 AM
He's hearing clicking noises, not chain whirrrrrr. (Not saying that he could not have a stuck tensioner, and is hearing some chain slap - but the noise at the top - EGR - of the engine is valve ticking)

You want to hear what aggravated chain tensioner noise sounds like ??? Get to a car show or drive-by and listen for the guy running a gear-idler-gear cam drive in an OHV engine: They're designed to be noisy, and they sound like a modern version of the old Ferrari 3.0L V-12 DOHC engine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhPgYvDvkmk

Hear that high-pitched whine/whistle ? That's a cam gear drive system (no chain/belt), and it sounds quite similar to heavily worn cam chain tensioner slippers - but louder.

Bottom line: If you suspect chain wear or tensioner problems, the only way to positively identify the problem is to open up the front of the engine.......... and that's a day's work, engine in the car.

EDIT: Go online to Blackstone Laboratories and ask for an engine oil sample test kit. You send them an 8 ounce oil sample of what's in the engine right now - they analyze it and send a report that tells you everything that's in the oil - besides oil; aluminum, iron, nylon, plastic, coolant, water, you-name-it. They will want to know what oil brand and type it is, how many times you add oil during a change interval, how many miles on THAT oil, and if you have dumped in any snake oil additives.