: Pondering buying a 94-96 Fleetwood



N0DIH
02-12-05, 01:04 AM
I am pondering replacing my 91 SDV with a 94-96 Fleetwood.

1. I like the RWD platform better.
2. Same front suspension as my 80 Turbo Trans AM.
3. Similar engine, trans and rear end to my 96 Suburban
4. RWD
5. RWD
6. LT1

What are your thoughts? Worthy cars? I am concerned on reliability and longevity.
What sort of mods are possible, like Aluminum heads? I am concerned about efficiency and lightening the car as much as I can (lighter = faster and better mileage!) But I do want to keep it 100% drivable, I do 120 miles a day for work, so long life and good mileage are important issues.

How long do these 4L60E's last?
How long do the 350 LT1 last?
What reliability issues? I have heard mention the water pump leak and kill the Optispark, anything else?
How can I spot an L99 that is in place of the LT1?? Any dead ringer givaways?

Thanks!!
Tom Martin

SoundAdvantage
02-12-05, 01:36 AM
Check out these links for detailed info on the Fleetwood. The 5.7 litre LT1 has more than enough power and speed for the large RWD Fleetwood. What I would concentrate on more than anything is the suspension for high performance upgrades.

http://members.accessus.net/~090/cfb.html

http://auto.consumerguide.com/auto/used/reviews/full/index.cfm/


These were some of the Best RWD Cadillacs built during the mid 90s with a full body on frame chassis. There is also a LT1 edit program to reconfigure the engines performance and tranny shift points.

IndianaSpank
02-12-05, 08:47 AM
Get anything with an LT1. I had one in my 94 Caprice 9C1 and it was the best motor I've ever seen. She had 190K miles on her when I sold her, (Big Miistake), and she still ran like a striped-ass ape. I have a 26.2 mile one way trip to work and I averaged 22MPG. Coulda got more but it was hard to keep my foot out of it. I had her up to 136MPH once, but the spotlight looked about to depart.
I have a 93 Fleet that I love but I would cheat on her if I found an LT1 powered Fleet for a good price. The LT1 makes that big of a difference to me.

Katshot
02-12-05, 11:42 AM
I agree that the LT1-powered Fleetwoods were the best ever made. In particular, the '95 and early '96 were standouts. If you're looking for performance mods, you might want to stay away from the '96 since it was OBDII and that is a major hurdle when it comes to doing performance mods. With a '96, the first thing you'd need to do is convert it to OBDI. After that, the performance mods are plentiful to say the least. The engine is the exact same one used in the Chevy/Buick 'B' body cars, and the rest of the drivetrain is so oild-school that virtually everybody makes parts for them. The durability of the platform is legendary to say the least (when GM cancelled the B&D body cars, they were the prefered cars for taxis, limos, and police departments everywhere). As was already mentioned here, the PCM is easily modified by the use of programs like LT1-Edit (which I have used for years) among others. Check out http://cardomain.com and see all the modded Fleetwoods (including mine) and you'll see how many others have been bitten by the bug.

DanTheMan
02-13-05, 04:25 AM
He actually brought up a good question about the L99. I don't know much about it at all but how do you spot one?

As for the water/optispark issue, that's not just a rumor. I don't know that it was caused by a leaky water pump but for the first few years of the opti-spark it was know to have condensation inside it and fail prematurely. In some cases as early as 60,000 miles. That problem was taken care of accross the board in 95 when they added a vacuum line. My 95 fleetwoood is a at 105k and doesn't show any signs yet of failure. As for how far they generally last, that's probably all about how lucky you are.

Since you said that you're doing mostly highway miles the low gears on these cars will do you justice. I've averaged 19 highway, but on the flip side 12 city. If you are sure you want a B/D body the caprices and roadmasters have an even lower rear end for better highway. Hope this helps

theGman
02-13-05, 02:06 PM
From a non-mechanical angle, the Fleetwood is a classy car, not as sporty looking as an Impala SS, but basically it's an Impala SS in a tuxedo. You don't see many of them around, which is neat in a car with so many interchanges with Chevys, etc.
A hot running Fleetwood is maybe the ultimate sleeper car of this era.

91TexasSeville
02-13-05, 02:50 PM
From a non-mechanical angle, the Fleetwood is a classy car, not as sporty looking as an Impala SS, but basically it's an Impala SS in a tuxedo. You don't see many of them around, which is neat in a car with so many interchanges with Chevys, etc.
A hot running Fleetwood is maybe the ultimate sleeper car of this era.

How many Impala SS's have onboard diagnostics that rival the Cadillac? Corvette is the only Chevy I can think of. So the Chevy in a tuxedo statement is way off base in my opinion.
Just my 2

theGman
02-13-05, 11:41 PM
Off base? I think not. It is the same car mechanically, on a stretched wheelbase. Same under the hood. Body parts are different, of course.

Many parts are interchangable; I have gone with the SS springs, aftermarket lower control arms, shocks, front and rear sway bars, plus a new windshield. Am planning on upgrading the intake and other engine related components...all parts mentioned are Chevy parts.

N0DIH
02-14-05, 12:37 AM
I did take a look at one car, it is a factory V4P (7000# tow, 3.42 gear) car also. It runs great power wise. It is aged, but not too bad. It will take some time to "fix" the little things. No apparent big things.

I appreciate the advice!

My main requirement is a 6 pass car. I love big cars, always have. Having room to spare and a large trunk is a big plus. Sure it will hurt on mileage, but prefer a car I enjoy too.

Enough I think I will put my 80 Turbo Trans AM up for sale, as I don't have time for it anymore. (400 in it now, have the 301 Turbo in the basement, also a 455 Pontiac with a variety of very desireable heads....including a THM200 4R ready to drop in, and some 77 Eldo rear discs to bolt on....)

Thanks!
Any other comments I will be very open to!
Tom

N0DIH
02-14-05, 12:42 AM
Oh, where is the FDC (Fuel Data Center) on these cars? I didn't notice it.

Or is there one? Or is that a DeVille/Seville/Eldo thing only?

Thanks!
Tom

Katshot
02-14-05, 07:01 AM
From a non-mechanical angle, the Fleetwood is a classy car, not as sporty looking as an Impala SS, but basically it's an Impala SS in a tuxedo. You don't see many of them around, which is neat in a car with so many interchanges with Chevys, etc.
A hot running Fleetwood is maybe the ultimate sleeper car of this era.

I'd agree!

HotRodSaint
02-14-05, 12:41 PM
I did take a look at one car, it is a factory V4P (7000# tow, 3.42 gear) car also.

In searching for a Fleetwood, the V4P is the most desirable option in my book. The Brougham package would be a mandatory option for me.



http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/1/web/289000-289999/289674_71_full.jpg
More Pic's Here. (http://www.cardomain.com/id/hotrodsaint)

Katshot
02-14-05, 12:49 PM
In searching for a Fleetwood, the V4P is the most desirable option in my book. The Brougham package would be a mandatory option for me.


I can't agree on the V4P option being even desirable. The cooling system is not as good and if you're going to do any serious drivetrain mods, the 3.42 diff. would have to go anyway. IMO, the Brougham package is the mandatory option not only for the content but for the resale value.

illumina
02-14-05, 01:34 PM
The '94 FWB has the LT1, right?

Because there is one in my neighborhood for $4100.00. I have been considering buying this car except that it has high miles: 152,000 on the clock.

Katshot
02-14-05, 01:49 PM
Yes. '94-'96 had the LT1.

N0DIH
02-14-05, 09:03 PM
I can't agree on the V4P option being even desirable. The cooling system is not as good and if you're going to do any serious drivetrain mods, the 3.42 diff. would have to go anyway. IMO, the Brougham package is the mandatory option not only for the content but for the resale value.

Not as good? I thought the V08 cooling (which is std on V4P) was the best, highest capacity. Please elaborate!

Question: Does the V08 cooling (the one with belt fan) also have the electric fans as well? If so, can I remove the belt fan and install as needed for towing, if I ever do (I have a 96 Burb to do that for me, the V4P option will still tow more than my 96 Suburban!!)

Tom

N0DIH
02-14-05, 09:04 PM
The '94 FWB has the LT1, right?

Because there is one in my neighborhood for $4100.00. I have been considering buying this car except that it has high miles: 152,000 on the clock.

This one I am looking at does as well. But seems solid still. I am taking a chance, at least the aftermarket supports me well on it.

Tom

SoundAdvantage
02-15-05, 05:14 AM
In searching for a Fleetwood, the V4P is the most desirable option in my book. The Brougham package would be a mandatory option for me.



http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/1/web/289000-289999/289674_71_full.jpg
More Pic's Here. (http://www.cardomain.com/id/hotrodsaint)

This car makes my weener hard!

HotRodSaint
02-15-05, 12:29 PM
This car makes my weener hard!

I should name her and you two could make little Fleetwoods and we could sell 'em and split the profits.

HotRodSaint
02-15-05, 12:30 PM
Oh, but she's fitted for unleaded fuel, so be gentle.

scurling
02-15-05, 03:33 PM
NoDIH:

Yes, the V4P has the extra cap. cooling with the electric primary cooing fan and the belt driven for constant air flow. Non 4VPs have a secondary electric fan. It also has the additional oil and trans coolers which are a nice touch.

I have one Brougham V4P and one plane jane Ftlwd. IMO the Brougham package is a must. The V4P is nice, and I did install a hitch to get the kids back and fourth to college with a U-Haul. The ride is a little stiffer and the MPGs are about 3 to 4 lower between my two cars, 22mpg and ~18 to 19mpg for the V4P.

I don't think that mileage is excessive for these cars, especially if the vehicle was never used to tow anything. Also, the thing about the optispark, I believe the '94 and up have the moisture problem corrected with a vent tube. The water pump, may eventually have to be replaced, but it lasts a lot longer than conventional water pumps. It is gear driven, so the wear from the usual belt force on the bearings is not a factor. I have detected a very slight leak in the pump of my Brougham with 130K miles.

I'm not sure about the other model years, but the '94 does not have the mileage/fuel data center. Both of my cars were well cared for by the previous owners, and I have had very few problems while more than doubling their mileage.

Katshot
02-16-05, 09:07 AM
Not as good? I thought the V08 cooling (which is std on V4P) was the best, highest capacity. Please elaborate!

Question: Does the V08 cooling (the one with belt fan) also have the electric fans as well? If so, can I remove the belt fan and install as needed for towing, if I ever do (I have a 96 Burb to do that for me, the V4P option will still tow more than my 96 Suburban!!)

Tom

The V03 option is "extra-capacity" cooling and is the one with gear-driven water pump, and dual electric fans. The V08 option is "heavy-duty" cooling and has a belt-driven water pump and one standard, old-fashion belt-driven clutch fan.
While the V08 "may" be better for towing, the V03 is far better for everyday driving since the electric fans will maintain better cooling in low-speed and stop and go traffic, which means your engine stays cooler in normal driving conditions and your A/C stays cool all the time. This is why the V03 cooling option is used on all fleet cars like limousines etc. instead of the V08 option. Plus, on the V03 system, if you loose a belt, you still have your water pump so the car CAN still be driven without damaging anything. The belt only drives creature-comfort items, NOT critical items.

N0DIH
02-16-05, 12:55 PM
Scott Mueller said that the primary fan is still on the V4P cars w/V08, Can I install the secondary fan (what does it take?) and remove the belt driven fan?

I likely will not tow, if I do, it will be very rare, I have a Suburban for that stuff...

If you don't have V03, does it get 2 fans or only 1?

Is the actual capacity of the radiator different with the V03 or V08?
Thanks!
Tom

Katshot
02-16-05, 01:31 PM
Ok, here's what I just found after looking this up in my OEM service manual. I have to take back the statement I made concerning the V08 system NOT having a gear-driven water pump. According to the book, both systems use the same water pump. Sorry, it's been years since I actuall saw one myself, and I was going by memory. Obviously NOT a good idea with my memory at times. :rolleyes:
Anyways, the book says that the "std" cooling system uses a 150 watt primary fan and a 100watt secondary fan. The V03 option upgrades the secondary fan only to a 240watt unit. The V08 option changes the primary fan to a mechanical unit and the secondary unit stays the 240 watt unit from the V03 option.
From what I can see, the radiators are a different part number but not different from a performance angle. Perhaps looking up a replacement radiator might shed more light on that. I can't say for sure myself.
As far as removing the mechanical fan and replacing it with an electric one, I can't say for sure but I doubt the PCM will have the necessary circuitry to control the new primary fan, so I doubt it would be a very easy retrofit project.

N0DIH
02-16-05, 10:45 PM
I found an article on the net for the Caprice on how to remove it. The PCM does have it but the wiring harness is missing the pin.

Looks to be relatively simple to do, in a complicated sort of way....

I might be doing that once it warms up!

Tom

SoundAdvantage
02-16-05, 11:17 PM
So does this mean your in the market for a 94-96 Fleetwood or a 95-96?
What does the 95 have that the 94 doesnt? any major differences?

N0DIH
02-16-05, 11:48 PM
I should be picking up my 94 V4P Fleetwood Brougham Friday night.

So I was in the market, but not anymore! :yup:

She scoots too! I'll post pictures when I get it home and take some.

Tom

DaveSmed
02-17-05, 12:40 AM
Oh, but she's fitted for unleaded fuel, so be gentle.

lmao! (yet I realize many won't get it)

Anyway, albiet late, I can also vouch for it being a stout platform to build on. As Kevin has referenced elsewhere, from my understanding, the best thing to do for the feel of the car is the gears. With overdrive, you end up not sacrificing much anyway.

scurling
02-17-05, 09:32 AM
NoDIH,

Congrats on the new buy!!! You will love her.

She scoots with the help of the GU6 option (AXLE REAR,3.42 RATIO) that is standard with the V4P. If you test drove other Fltwds. for comparison, you would notice the V4P is a lot stiffer and flatter in the turns.

Now, you'll just have to show us some pictures of your new baby when you bring her home. ;)

DanTheMan
02-17-05, 12:06 PM
Where those 3.42 GU6 axles 10-bolt like other chevy's or where they 12-bolt as in most of our cars?

Also, where they interchangable with any other vehicles (b-body or not)?

N0DIH
02-17-05, 02:22 PM
They are std 10 bolts. 12 bolts are long dead, the last dying out in early 70's. The 70-76 B/C/D cars had a 8.875" rear, but it was not related to the 12 bolt, although it may have had 12 bolts, they are a different design, deisgned by Pontiac. Ratios ranged from 2.41 to 3.23 only, no aftermarket support at all.

As for interchange:
Any B/D Body axle from 77 to 96 will interchange (see note below), and any 1973 to 1977 A body (Cutlass, Grand Prix, Monto Carslo, etc) will, as well as any RWD Riviera (77 to 78?, see note below) , and any 1973 to 1977 G Body (Grand AM, etc).

Note:
The thing you need to watch for is the rear discs on some, they are not a direct interchange, although they will bolt up just fine, you might need ABS and master cyl changes, as well as e brake lines. And brake lines might need to be changed to a flexible line to go into the caliper

Tom

N0DIH
02-17-05, 02:30 PM
NoDIH,

Congrats on the new buy!!! You will love her.

She scoots with the help of the GU6 option (AXLE REAR,3.42 RATIO) that is standard with the V4P. If you test drove other Fltwds. for comparison, you would notice the V4P is a lot stiffer and flatter in the turns.

Now, you'll just have to show us some pictures of your new baby when you bring her home. ;)

Will do! I look forward to it. Unfortunately I haven't driven any others, so I don't have the 2.56/2.93 frame of reference. But it did run like I felt it should.

Anyone know if the LT1 in a V4P got the slightly bigger cam that the LT1's in the Z28/Trans AM's got? More cam might dictate more duration to keep power in the right rpm range.

Lift = HP, Duration = what RPM that power is at.

Thanks!
Tom

DanTheMan
02-17-05, 04:27 PM
What about width of those axles. The axle that came with the car doesn't allow for much room with those tire skirts. Any new axle would have to be the same length or just barely shorter to fit.

Katshot
02-17-05, 04:32 PM
They are std 10 bolts. 12 bolts are long dead, the last dying out in early 70's. The 70-76 B/C/D cars had a 8.875" rear, but it was not related to the 12 bolt, although it may have had 12 bolts, they are a different design, deisgned by Pontiac. Ratios ranged from 2.41 to 3.23 only, no aftermarket support at all.

As for interchange:
Any B/D Body axle from 77 to 96 will interchange (see note below), and any 1973 to 1977 A body (Cutlass, Grand Prix, Monto Carslo, etc) will, as well as any RWD Riviera (77 to 78?, see note below) , and any 1973 to 1977 G Body (Grand AM, etc).

Note:
The thing you need to watch for is the rear discs on some, they are not a direct interchange, although they will bolt up just fine, you might need ABS and master cyl changes, as well as e brake lines. And brake lines might need to be changed to a flexible line to go into the caliper

Tom

This is not true. The rears are NOT the same. The housings have different lengths. I can't remember right off hand what the measurements are but the standard B-body housing is narrower than the station wagon one, and I believe the D-body is different than those. There's a guy on this forum (Bill Harper) that did a lot of homework on these for the purpose of doing disc brake kits for them all and I remember him mentioning that they were all different. He had all the dimensions as I recall.

N0DIH
02-17-05, 05:01 PM
Note I didn't say they were identical, but they are INTERCHANGEABLE.

Same, but different....

Tom

theGman
02-17-05, 06:48 PM
But they're not interchangable; that is, they can't be substituted for each other.

N0DIH
02-17-05, 09:03 PM
Then why do all these cars have the same tread/track width?

They all have the same mounting dimensions under the car. A 76 LeMans axles bolts into an 85 Delta 88 B Body. The 80 through 96 cars all have the same 60.7in track.

Are you taking into account the thickness of the drums or rotors in the axle diimensions? The OVERALL dimensions are likely the same.

According to the consumer guide link the wagons grew track width. Ok, I stand corrected, the wagons are your only exception.

Ref: http://www.9c1.com/technical/info/axle_info.htm
http://auto.consumerguide.com/auto/used/reviews/full/index.cfm/id/2008

Katshot
02-17-05, 09:51 PM
I would tell you to seek out Bill Harper and ask him. He has all the actual data and even part numbers as I recall. He's a VERY smart and accurate guy and you can depend on what he says.

N0DIH
02-17-05, 10:04 PM
Is Bill on the boards here?

Is there any sort of technical archives like the 9C1 and Impala SS guys have here?

It would be worthy to have a good cross reference on here. Anyone have a Hollander interchange book? That would be invaluable to post interchanges for stuff like trans and rear ends. Or performance upgrades that really work, or ones that don't.... Or ?

Maybe an additonal forum that is sticky only, that only admins can setup and post cool stuff that is cadillac only, and stuff that is common, links, like to remove the home plate, or bypass the throttle body heat. What do you think?

DanTheMan
02-18-05, 12:17 AM
Check out this website I found. It covers pretty much any differential a chevy guy this half of the centry could come across. Doesn't give too much detail but part numbers and diagrams are pretty thorough.


http://www.drivetrain.com/GMtrkratio_posidata.html

SoundAdvantage
02-19-05, 04:03 AM
I would tell you to seek out Bill Harper and ask him. He has all the actual data and even part numbers as I recall. He's a VERY smart and accurate guy and you can depend on what he says.


Kevin,
Are you talking about the guy who Installed a Manual Transmission in his Fleetwood?

Katshot
02-19-05, 12:21 PM
Kevin,
Are you talking about the guy who Installed a Manual Transmission in his Fleetwood?

No, wrong Bill. Bill Harper, I think his screen name is NavyLifer or something like that. He sells the rear disc brake kits for Fleetwoods.

N0DIH
02-19-05, 08:31 PM
Well, I have my new ride!

Factory V4P car. Runs great. It looks to have the revised Optispark distributor. Is that unusual? It has a blue vacuum elbow that runs from the elbow to under the Optispark, and it seems to joint up with the intake on the drivers side. Looks factory to me.

Love the power coming out of turns! It handles decent, not great, but decent. The car is quiet and firm on the road, has good manners.

I will likely remove the homeplate and first base, and then bypass the throttle body heat next. I want some fuel economy baseline numbers. I drive 600 miles a week, so fuel economy is important and I like to monitor what changes affect it. Any advice?

Any other low cost mods I should consider?

Tom

Katshot
02-20-05, 08:44 AM
Congrats!!
One point on the Opti vacuum lines. Make sure they are fully intact and have no leaks. They tend to get erroded by fluid leaks down under the engine. If the line(s) develope a leak, the distributor's service life WILL suffer greatly. As for suggested mods, click on the link below and read over what I did to mine. Made a hell of a difference in the car.

Kevin Donovan
'95 Cadillac FTS
(Click the link to see my car)
http://members.cardomain.com/katshot

scurling
02-20-05, 05:13 PM
My only advice would be to find a job closer to home. 600 miles a week? ouch!

Congratulations on the new buy. You will love her.

N0DIH
02-21-05, 02:32 AM
I wish I could, but the cost of living closer is phenomenol (like upwards $4000 to $8000 a yr taxes on a $150K to $200K house!!!) Forget that! I'll drive it! And at least get to really enjoy the Fleetwood.

That is part of my logic in a large car with lots of goodies. The other, I need a 6 pass car. I have 4 kids, and minivan's are out of the question. Wouldn't be caught...., well, you know.... And the Caddy gets better mileage!

I get plates tomorrow, and so far, she is at 300 miles and just hit 1/2 tank. For a V4P car, is this "normal"???

Tom

scurling
02-21-05, 01:19 PM
300 miles on a half tank? :rofl:

We all wish.....

The gas tank sending unit and electronic display for these, our lovely metal beuties, is notoriously...shall we say...out of calibration.

My two '94s are "2 and 0" for bad or non-accurate gas level displays. One sending unit was replaced before I got the vehicle by the previous owner with only 24K miles. Soon after receiving my V4P Fltwd., it left me twice on the road side when I trusted the gauge when it was at 1/4 tank.

I use ~300 miles as my indication it's time to find gas. That's a good safe mileage with enough gas to get you to any station. I have gone as far as 425 miles in my non-V4P Fltwd. before refueling, but I keep the range to about 350 max in my V4P which has the quirky gas gauge.

N0DIH
02-21-05, 07:58 PM
What is involved in dropping the tank to fix? I have dropped the tank on my 91 Bonneville 2x for fuel pumps, same deal different day?

Figured while I am in there, drop in a new fuel pump. Any recommendations?

Tom

scurling
02-21-05, 09:57 PM
NoDIH:

Looking at the service manual, it looks fairly straight forward, although I have never removed the tank on a Cadillac.

1. Negative battery cable
2. releave fuel pressure
3. Drain tank
4.Raise vehicle
5. Fuel tank shields.
6. Vapor line connector. Looks like the lines from left to right are Fuel feed, fuel return, and vapor line
7. Vent hose connection at fuel filler neck vent pipe.
8. Fuel filler tube connection at fuel tank.
9. Fuel feed and retun connections at fuel sender unit on tank. Carefull, these may be quick connect twist connectors. These line are made of nylon. Be careful not to bend and kink the lines.
10. Tank will now come down with removal of retaining straps. It has front and rear strap bolts.

The sending unit looks like it has the typical GM type retaining ring, but that's just how I see it in the picture.

Hope this helps Maybe someone else has some real experience on this tank system.

Katshot
02-22-05, 08:46 AM
What is involved in dropping the tank to fix? I have dropped the tank on my 91 Bonneville 2x for fuel pumps, same deal different day?

Figured while I am in there, drop in a new fuel pump. Any recommendations?

Tom

It makes the Bonneville R&R look easy. It's a straight-forward job. Disconnect the fuel lines and harness at their disconnect points at the tank, support the tank, remove the strap-clamp nuts, and drop the tank out. It's really just that easy. You just have to slide it forward a little to clear the rear bumper area with the filler neck. It's a BREEZE on a lift! I guess I'm spoiled since I always used a trans jack and a lift when I did them.
The senders are notorious for being bad and/or inaccurate. so the only true "fix" is to replace the whole tank unit (sender and pump ass'y) with the new upgraded one form the dealer. You don't have to worry about asking for "the upgraded one" since the factory replacement parts were all changed back in the late 90's as I recall so all OEM replacement units will be the "new" model.

N0DIH
02-22-05, 02:14 PM
I figured once I am in there, replace the pump anyway. What is the factory pump rated at? Is there any upgrades or does it need any?

I have seen 255 lph pumps out there, are they needed? My plan is really only tweaks, no major mods. so 300 hp is probably as high as I will take it, unless I get the $2400 for the LT4 conversion I just saw in Summit catalog. Then who knows.....

Tom

Katshot
02-22-05, 03:11 PM
Unless you're considering a big (more than say 100hp) wet nitrous kit, the OEM pump is more than sufficient.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
02-22-05, 07:21 PM
no the 1993-96 fleetwoods do not have a fuel data center, and neither does a buick roadmaster (i had one), and only the deville,seville,eldo had the FDC