: Oil Additives... BBOB?? and others....



95Concours
02-11-05, 12:12 PM
I read the debate on using STP and how it was worthless.... Any thoughts on Lucas oil supplement.... Its the thickest oil ive seen and the bottle claims to "EXTEND ENGINE LIFE & REDUCE WEAR"....

dkozloski
02-11-05, 02:21 PM
In fifty years the only oil additive I've found that does anything useful is GM EOS. I first ran across it in the 50's and have used it for assembly oil ever since because of its galling protection. STP had to pay off the biggest consumer fraud fine in history, over $600,000 to the FTC, because they couldn't prove it had any value at all. It came out in a civil case between partners in Slick 50 that their motor treatment is reclaimed crankcase drainings and ground up scrap plastic. All the rest of the snake oils that have been for sale since the dawn of the auto industry have their following with little scientific data to justify their longevity. I suppose they can claim they don't hurt anything. Among mechanical industry veterans it is pretty well agreed that Caterpillar has the best handle on lubrication science going. When they get ready to endorse "Duck Butter" I'll listen.

ljklaiber
02-11-05, 03:28 PM
I spent over 25 years building competition V8s. Bought GM EOS by the case. Best assembly lube, bar none.

dkozloski
02-11-05, 03:32 PM
I assenbled hundreds of aircraft engines with EOS and never had a lubrication failure.

Katshot
02-11-05, 03:55 PM
I generally do not support the use of oil additives. If the oil is properly chosen to meet the needs of both the engine and the driving conditions (mainly ambient temps), I believe an additive is a waste of money and in many cases could actually be counter-productive.

ljklaiber
02-11-05, 03:59 PM
Koz!

All I know is NASCAR had a mushroom flattappet rule circa 1980, and the mushroom flattappet lifter had a .960 foot on it and was a bastard. Leavin them soak in EOS when I went to the house, cured all problems. Did the same for bearings to rockers.....and camshaft lobes. Great Stuff!

DS1784
02-11-05, 04:00 PM
most oil additives tend to be viscosity improvers, or they will be a concoction of anti friction or wear additives. most are just great money makers. just think the ones with the highest price and biggest advertising budget are usually the worst.

dkozloski
02-11-05, 04:17 PM
ljkalibur, who did you build engines for? I remember soaking Oldsmobile cams and lifters both in EOS trying to get them to survive.

dkozloski
02-11-05, 04:20 PM
It came out in court that while Andy Granatelli was getting dollars per small can for STP he was buying the stuff from a supplier for 59 cents per gallon.

ljklaiber
02-11-05, 04:22 PM
I moved south from Draime Racing in 1978 and built for MC Anderson Racing in Georgia, Buddy Baker, Benny Parsons and for Valvoline and Cale Yarborough. I was the Cylinderhead specialist, (ie Porting etc) and built backup engines. Valvoline was helpful in understanding lubrication . Using GM EOS was a bonus, as my engines rode the truck til needed. I only had one major win, but it was the 1982 Southern 500 at Darlington. Damn nervous day for me...LOL

TY

dkozloski
02-11-05, 04:30 PM
ljkalibur, I was lucky enough to get to go to the night race at Bristol last year. My nephew manages the second most profitable NAPA store in the world so we were comped by DEI. There is absolutely nothing in the world that matches NASCAR for the show and the wonderful people involved. My hat is off to you and all your brethren. The quality of the craftsmanship I saw is unequaled anywhere.

ljklaiber
02-11-05, 04:38 PM
TY Koz, but it is much more Pro today. Bristol is my fav track, but it wasn't fancy in my time. I am from the days of cast iron heads etc. NASCAR builders used to work 70 to 80 hour weeks and make excuses to the Mrs..LOL The sport really grew. Proud of them.

I like to think we started a good thing, running up and down the roads...just racing.

dkozloski
02-11-05, 04:50 PM
ljklaiber, The noise at Bristol is indescribable. I worked at a newspaper with a lady that is Russ Strupps (Kenseth's jack man) aunt so I got to meet Robbie Reiser. What a great guy he is.

Ranger
02-11-05, 05:22 PM
I read the debate on using STP and how it was worthless.... Any thoughts on Lucas oil supplement.... Its the thickest oil ive seen and the bottle claims to "EXTEND ENGINE LIFE & REDUCE WEAR"....
Snake oil and unnecessary. I have yet to hear of anyone complain about a Northstar lubrication problem. I have seen people on this and Caddyinfo.com with over 300K on them WITHOUT additives.

95Concours
02-11-05, 05:35 PM
Thanks all..... Very informative.... Is it worth putting in a quart (more/less) of the GM EOS in the engine with an oil change? Can you buy it off the shelf?

dkozloski
02-11-05, 06:09 PM
You can get EOS from a GM dealer. Like ljklaiber I bought it by the case. I suppose you could add it to the oil but I used it strictly for assembly oil both for complete overhauls and repair work. It seems to me I have seen it in quart cans where it looked kind of thin and also in smaller cans as thick as molasses. Bbob would know more about that.

Katshot
02-11-05, 06:59 PM
Snake oil and unnecessary. I have yet to hear of anyone complain about a Northstar lubrication problem. I have seen people on this and Caddyinfo.com with over 300K on them WITHOUT additives.

The Northstar lubrication system? Other than how the oil pump is driven, I'd have little to complain about. Seriously DUMB design IMO.

dkozloski
02-11-05, 09:56 PM
On a Deutz diesel everything on the engine that has anything at all to do with timing is unkeyed. This includes the cam gear, the crank gear, and the toothed pulleys for the cog belt. They aren't even a press fit and can be spun readily before the bolts are tightened. The beauty of all this is that you don't have to make any compromises on the timing because of a lack of accuracy in keyslot cutting or the like. A tapered pin screws into the cam and a stop bolt is screwed into the crankcase to position the crank. Tighten the bolts to the proper stretch and all is well. I have never heard of one losing time from a loose bolt. Tighten the bolts correctly in the first place and forget it. Cadillac hasn't chosen a bad design, just a different one.

mcowden
02-12-05, 07:26 PM
Regarding additives, Lucas or otherwise, I still believe they are all a waste of time and money and probably do more harm than good. Motor oil isn't just oil. It's a base oil and a carefully engineered blend of additives for reducing friction, preventing air entrapment, neutralizing acids, etc. When you start throwing stuff into the oil that wasn't there to begin with, you throw off the balance that the oil company engineered so carefully, thereby reducing the effectiveness of the additive package. I don't know anything at all about GM's EOS, but it probably still falls into the category of unnecessary and wasteful because it, too, will throw off the balance of additives. Here's some good reading for anyone interested in engine oil supplementation, especially with Lucas:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/images/lucas/lucas.htm

Happy reading... It's good to maintain your car, but some things are just not necessary and I think this is one of them. Good luck!

dkozloski
02-12-05, 07:43 PM
McCowden, I agree in all respects. I used EOS strictly for assembly oil to provide lubrication until the oil starts to circulate at first startup. It provides protection for the parts subject to early damage like cams, lifters, rocker arm pivots, and distributor/oil pump drive gears. Because the fits and finishes are so much better in this age of CNC tooling it looks more and more like the old lengthy break-in process is almost instantaneous.

Ranger
02-12-05, 09:52 PM
I seem to recall Bbob saying that all motor oils have EOS, just not in the amounts there are in the GM assembly oil. I would say (and I think he has) that it is unecassary to add as a suppliment.