: cam sufficient for a top mount blower?



crete68s
06-16-13, 10:29 PM
When I initially inquired about my cam install I had a particular horsepower goal, however I expressed my intentions to go F/I later on down the road. After the matter I looked over the forums a little bit more intensively and I'm not completely sure where I stand. My tuner got back to me after talking to the comp cams guy and said this cam would be a decent overall n/aand f/i cam. The specs are 231/236 at a .050 duration with a lobe lift of .3630/.3400 and 113 lsa. What do you guys thinks?

darkman
06-17-13, 07:16 AM
I am not a cam guru, but those specs don't strike me as being a typical cam for forced induction. Generally, speaking forced induction cams use shorter durations and larger LSA values than cams for natural aspiration in otherwise similar applications. Additionally, cam gurus will tell you that with forced induction not to expect dramatic differences with cam changes - forced induction is a substitute for a bigger cam.

If I were going to forced induction I would get a cam specified for forced induction. It will still give some power increase in the mean time as opposed to being compromised for both the short term (NA) and the long term (FI).

crete68s
06-17-13, 08:59 AM
I appreciate your input. The cam has already been installed. The plans are to go with ported 317 heads so hopefully the lower compression will help out in making more power on less boost with a whipple 3.3.

Skidmarcx
06-17-13, 08:17 PM
Sounds like its going to be a kick ass build with a Whipple.... I'm no cam guru either, but I can tell you the LS9 cam is popular for boost

crete68s
06-18-13, 09:18 AM
It should hit pretty hard down low for sure. I'm just hoping this cam I have isn't counterproductive.

darkman
06-18-13, 09:27 AM
It should hit pretty hard down low for sure. I'm just hoping this cam I have isn't counterproductive.

My guess is that with a blower that cam is counterproductive compared to a pure blower cam, and perhaps even compared to a stock LS6 cam. But I would ask someone with more specific expertise before I did anything.

DMM
06-18-13, 10:24 AM
You need a greater exhaust bias. I would suggest something like a 226/240 duration at .595"/.605" on 117 LSA. That much blower really needs a wide exhaust bias.

sssnake
06-18-13, 11:28 AM
You need a greater exhaust bias. I would suggest something like a 226/240 duration at .595"/.605" on 117 LSA. That much blower really needs a wide exhaust bias.

Agreed in principle. For my 2.3l blower I am at 218/238 .598/.610 120lsa. With a larger blower I would expect more exhaust bias but all of this depends upon which heads you are running and other factors. I would get Pat G or some other cam guru to spec it out.

crete68s
06-18-13, 12:17 PM
Alright guys I really appreciate it. I'll check with a couple sources. Maybe this means I will end up considering a different route in terms of n/a or f/i for the future of the car. I figured I would be able to get pretty close to 600 whp on the whipple set up. Any one seen relatively close numbers on a n/a set up while still maintaining decent mid range torque?

Hendrix-Engineering
06-18-13, 12:43 PM
We have had great success with NA cams with the Maggie,its so small it needs all the help it can get .With a 3.3 whipple you could taylor something better for sure but if you are paying someone to swap it I would leave it in there.I would advise against dropping the CR it will make a lazy car down low and limit your HP .Keep the CR up and spin the blower slower to get your desired HP

crete68s
06-18-13, 01:12 PM
So perhaps a smaller blower (maggie 112) with the cam I have and ported 243s... E85 etc?

Hendrix-Engineering
06-18-13, 02:48 PM
E 85 helps a ton,if you can get it and have the fuel system for it its a grand slam.I would get an Eldelbrock 2300 while they have the $500 rebate going on ,it will be cheaper than the 112 and is a much better unit and will bolt right on.

darkman
06-18-13, 03:11 PM
I would get an Eldelbrock 2300 while they have the $500 rebate going on ,it will be cheaper than the 112 and is a much better unit and will bolt right on.

For an LS6?

crete68s
06-18-13, 03:35 PM
At this point I would go with any blower that meant my cam wasn't being counterproductive. If that's even possible.

DMM
06-18-13, 05:00 PM
We have had great success with NA cams with the Maggie,its so small it needs all the help it can get .With a 3.3 whipple you could taylor something better for sure but if you are paying someone to swap it I would leave it in there.I would advise against dropping the CR it will make a lazy car down low and limit your HP .Keep the CR up and spin the blower slower to get your desired HP

This is not true at all. I have the E-Force with the LS6 and it is too big without lowering compression. I had to pull every bit of timing in the low ranges to prevent KR and it was a dog on the street. After installing the 317's, I was able to add even more timing down low and pulley down for more boost. I now have excellent drivability and more boost at all times. Win/win.


E 85 helps a ton,if you can get it and have the fuel system for it its a grand slam.I would get an Eldelbrock 2300 while they have the $500 rebate going on ,it will be cheaper than the 112 and is a much better unit and will bolt right on.

This is not true as well and very misleading. The Edelbrock is an excellent piece, however it is far from complete. There is quite a bit that has to be done for an LS6, and the Edelbrock HEX, pump, etc either do not fit our application or are inferior pieces. Don't get me wrong, it's well worth the effort, but far from being bolt on.


At this point I would go with any blower that meant my cam wasn't being counterproductive. If that's even possible.

You're not going to find one. The cam I spec'd has 0* of overlap. With a bigger blower, closing the LSA of the cam a bit will make more power than running traditional "FI" negative overlap cams. You don't have to worry about losing boost...just pulley down if you need more.

OP...do you have the Whipple yet? Or, are we window shopping?

crete68s
06-18-13, 05:19 PM
Definitely shopping.

Hendrix-Engineering
06-19-13, 03:51 PM
For an LS6?

yes sir

----------


This is not true at all. I have the E-Force with the LS6 and it is too big without lowering compression. I had to pull every bit of timing in the low ranges to prevent KR and it was a dog on the street. After installing the 317's, I was able to add even more timing down low and pulley down for more boost. I now have excellent drivability and more boost at all times. Win/win.



This is not true as well and very misleading. The Edelbrock is an excellent piece, however it is far from complete. There is quite a bit that has to be done for an LS6, and the Edelbrock HEX, pump, etc either do not fit our application or are inferior pieces. Don't get me wrong, it's well worth the effort, but far from being bolt on.



You're not going to find one. The cam I spec'd has 0* of overlap. With a bigger blower, closing the LSA of the cam a bit will make more power than running traditional "FI" negative overlap cams. You don't have to worry about losing boost...just pulley down if you need more.

OP...do you have the Whipple yet? Or, are we window shopping?

Im not here to argue with you, a recent quote comes to mind,your entitled to your own opinion not your own facts .I can back anything I say with facts from numerous cars weve done but im not giving the only answer ,just the answers that's worked for us. Good luck with your build sounds like your on track

darkman
06-19-13, 03:58 PM
yes sir

That's odd. Edelbrock thinks the answer is no.

Hendrix-Engineering
06-19-13, 10:11 PM
We are waiting on sponsorship info so I don't wont to go into detail but Eldelbrock doesn't have a CTSV or GTO kit,we have a 99% kit with parts we order from Eldelbrock. We have done a few dozen CTSVs..

crete68s
06-20-13, 07:55 AM
We are waiting on sponsorship info so I don't wont to go into detail but Eldelbrock doesn't have a CTSV or GTO kit,we have a 99% kit with parts we order from Eldelbrock. We have done a few dozen CTSVs..

Could you post some dyno graphs of the fore mentioned cars that have a cam similar to mine and the tvs2300?

crete68s
06-22-13, 11:56 PM
I'm guessing this all applies to a rear mount tt set up as well? If that's the case I suppose I will have to go n/a. I don't believe I would want to get into a stroker kit. That should just leave me with h/c heads, under drive pulley, intake manifold (possibly fast 102 plus supporting cai and tb) and e85 tune? Anything else? Any other ideas for an intake manifold as the 102 may not be the most cost effective?

robojesus
06-23-13, 12:41 AM
I am having quite a bit of trouble believing what Hendrix is saying. I thought I would be interested in doing an e-force setup on my 408 with ls6 heads after reading that, then I remembered over on ls1tech, the e-force build thread.

DMM
06-23-13, 01:08 AM
Which E-Force build thread...there is mine and the one from "Psychobillycaddy". I copied my build on here, but on LS1 tech it's in three parts....when I got the parts, the initial build, and now installing new 317 heads and cam.

Hendrix - I am a little puzzled by your statement. I am speaking of facts, very well documented through all three of my threads regarding the E-Force. I guess you don't remember when I bought my E-Force from you and told me there were no plans for kits and that you did not know what was needed to complete the install other than the LS2 tensioner. Not complaining, you got me what you promised at a great price, but very very far from a kit.

Since I already posted every aspect of my E-Force install, can we see yours?

Naf
06-23-13, 02:26 AM
A good FI cam has a moderate duration for intake, a longer exhaust duration with moderate lift 0.550-0.625 and a large LSA 116 up to 121. The engine doenst have to work too hard to suck in the air anymore, the SC does all the work, But your exhaust should be longer to give it a chance to exhale...

Whats wrong with the LS9 cam? its cheap, it works, and gives you great power. If you want to increase your output then get the GT9 from LPE noticeable idle, but awesome power.

Hendrix-Engineering
06-23-13, 09:24 AM
Yes you may have received one of the first few and as I said at the time it took some finishing .Since then weve done a lot more and learn as we go,everyone has been happy with what we send them now...Your setup is working for you and that's great,and that's what matters for you. I have built and help customers build positive displacement setups on a weekly bases,mostly maggies which uses the same TVS rotors and are very very similar to the Eldelbrock... I simply gave a member my advise from years of working with these type blowers,not to discredit you and your results. I have built,help build the highest hp Magnason builds to date ,Magnason sends guys to me weekly to help them with there build which we enjoy doing.IM here to pass on things that have worked for us in hopes to help other members along,there free to choose a different path of coarse. You my find intrest in a Camaro in the most recent GM hi tec mag that has the record holding Eldelbrock on it,right at 800rwhp ,that's one of our dealers and I think we have a mention or two in that one as well... As you stated I delivered what I promised,and im glad you've made the most of it.

----------


I am having quite a bit of trouble believing what Hendrix is saying. I thought I would be interested in doing an e-force setup on my 408 with ls6 heads after reading that, then I remembered over on ls1tech, the e-force build thread.

Well maybe I can clear something up for you,fire away,you can send me a pm or call if you wish.

tommy compton
06-27-13, 09:25 AM
Pretty sure a big twin screw isn't going to dog down low with lowered compression. Keeping a 10.9:1(ls2) compression ratio and only running a couple pounds of boost sounds like a waste of a big blower if you ask me. Might as well stick to the mp112. Only way to up the boost on a big twin screw is to drop the compression, go race fuel or be meth dependant, if you want to still have any timing worth a damn.

crete68s
06-27-13, 09:58 AM
Pretty sure a big twin screw isn't going to dog down low with lowered compression. Keeping a 10.9:1(ls2) compression ratio and only running a couple pounds of boost sounds like a waste of a big blower if you ask me. Might as well stick to the mp112. Only way to up the boost on a big twin screw is to drop the compression, go race fuel or be meth dependant, if you want to still have any timing worth a damn.

I agree.. but I'm thinking I may be going n/a. Anyone have experience with the advanced inductions 226, ported fast 102, 102 tb and so on..?

DMM
06-27-13, 12:00 PM
The lack of misspelled words and use of punctuation leads me to believe this is not Thomas posting to the boards. Whoever you are sir, let Thomas know he made a smart hire.

----------


I agree.. but I'm thinking I may be going n/a. Anyone have experience with the advanced inductions 226, ported fast 102, 102 tb and so on..?

Make sure it's an LS2 style throttle body and you'll be good. An LS3 based throttle body will NOT work on our application.

tommy compton
06-27-13, 01:57 PM
The lack of misspelled words and use of punctuation leads me to believe this is not Thomas posting to the boards. Whoever you are sir, let Thomas know he made a smart hire.

No, that's how he spells.

crete68s
06-27-13, 02:14 PM
----------

Make sure it's an LS2 style throttle body and you'll be good. An LS3 based throttle body will NOT work on our application.

Is that because of the tps?

Hendrix-Engineering
06-27-13, 07:47 PM
I'll let me,Thomas know..Why could he not use an ls3 TB?

----------

I wouldn't call the 3.3. a big blower,the 281 cubic inch ford guys run them all the time over smaller blowers. The 3.3 Whipple doesn't flow any more than the 2.3 Magnason so its diffently not HUGE and would work great on the OPs build.Op I would do a little more searching in a few different places. Your motor doesnt know its in a Cadi :D A head/cam combo will never give you the power of a blower,you will use more gas and it will be less driver friendly going NA.

robojesus
06-27-13, 08:07 PM
i am gay

DMM
06-27-13, 11:03 PM
Is that because of the tps?


Why could he not use an ls3 TB?[COLOR="Silver"]

Drive by wire consists of three main components...the APP sensor (accelerator pedal position), the ECM/PCM, and the TAC module (the throttle body). Not every platform uses the same components even though they may share the same ECM/PCM. Mixing and matching these things can cause a non running condition, brick the PCM, or cause weird problems like getting full throttle under part throttle conditions.

The 2008 LS3 TB is the same as the LS2...silver blade. The 2009+ LS3/7 etc (gold blade) has an inverse blade rotation when compared to the LS2, and every part of the system (APP, PCM, TAC) is calibrated for this specific operation. It's a damn shame they're not interchangeable, the LS3 is about 1/3rd the price of an LS2 (this is why most aftermarket 102mm TB's use the LS3 as a base, and b/c that's what is selling now). The LS2 TAC motor is stronger though if you plan on FI, so we do get something for our money.

You could make it work if you updated to a later model PCM, made a custom harness, and integrated it into the vehicle...but you'd likely have comm's errors that you never get rid of. A few have tried to invert the TAC calibrations in the PCM only to brick it...I think Jesse (Wait4Me) did it once and got it to work, but IIRC said he would never do it again.

This is not the first time this has been gone over...Google and see for yourself. Or, spend the money and try it yourself.

tommy compton
06-27-13, 11:58 PM
I'll let me,Thomas know..Why could he not use an ls3 TB?

----------

I wouldn't call the 3.3. a big blower,the 281 cubic inch ford guys run them all the time over smaller blowers. The 3.3 Whipple doesn't flow any more than the 2.3 Magnason so its diffently not HUGE and would work great on the OPs build.Op I would do a little more searching in a few different places. Your motor doesnt know its in a Cadi :D A head/cam combo will never give you the power of a blower,you will use more gas and it will be less driver friendly going NA.

That would depend on the pulley size, but per revolution one moves 3.3l of air and the other 2.3l lol

crete68s
06-28-13, 10:44 AM
What about a 383 stroker kit? I would think that torque gains would be pretty substantial. Between a stroker, heads, cam, and 102 intake i would like to think power could easily be comparable to a 3.3 whipple build. With intentions ultimately being to attain as much hp with out flexing the the aluminum block. I guess about 600rw.? I would hate to back track on the work I have already done to the car.

DMM
06-28-13, 07:25 PM
What about a 383 stroker kit? I would think that torque gains would be pretty substantial. Between a stroker, heads, cam, and 102 intake i would like to think power could easily be comparable to a 3.3 whipple build. With intentions ultimately being to attain as much hp with out flexing the the aluminum block. I guess about 600rw.? I would hate to back track on the work I have already done to the car.

You're not going to hurt the block, you'll break something else before that point. Where are you planning on getting a 3.3 Whipple, there were two of them made and Tommy has one of them. The 383 have always run very well but typically do not show the same N/A gains when boosted. If you plan on building a motor and the going FI afterwards, I'd make sure that you build the N/A motor with larger combustion chamber (for use with FI) and thinner head gaskets in an attempt to get the static comp ratio a little higher. Your N/A cam can be spec'd to give you a little more dynamic compression than used in most N/A instances. This way, when you eventually go FI you're a cam and head gasket change away from rocking and rolling.

It's always best to build for a specific purpose. Building using components best for FI and making little changes to get the best N/A use of them will give you the best bang for your buck.

crete68s
06-30-13, 10:22 AM
Intentions would have the 383 (n/a) build as a substitute to the whipple. But then again you can never have too much powwaa!! Anyone know any reputable stroker kit brands?

Hendrix-Engineering
07-01-13, 12:34 PM
Drive by wire consists of three main components...the APP sensor (accelerator pedal position), the ECM/PCM, and the TAC module (the throttle body). Not every platform uses the same components even though they may share the same ECM/PCM. Mixing and matching these things can cause a non running condition, brick the PCM, or cause weird problems like getting full throttle under part throttle conditions.

The 2008 LS3 TB is the same as the LS2...silver blade. The 2009+ LS3/7 etc (gold blade) has an inverse blade rotation when compared to the LS2, and every part of the system (APP, PCM, TAC) is calibrated for this specific operation. It's a damn shame they're not interchangeable, the LS3 is about 1/3rd the price of an LS2 (this is why most aftermarket 102mm TB's use the LS3 as a base, and b/c that's what is selling now). The LS2 TAC motor is stronger though if you plan on FI, so we do get something for our money.

You could make it work if you updated to a later model PCM, made a custom harness, and integrated it into the vehicle...but you'd likely have comm's errors that you never get rid of. A few have tried to invert the TAC calibrations in the PCM only to brick it...I think Jesse (Wait4Me) did it once and got it to work, but IIRC said he would never do it again.

This is not the first time this has been gone over...Google and see for yourself. Or, spend the money and try it yourself.

I have seen NW102 tbs used on the ctsv ,not sure what they had to do but we use the ls3 TB on the GTO all the time with no issues.I don't spend much time on the ctsv so that's good to know when someone calls for a TB.

----------


That would depend on the pulley size, but per revolution one moves 3.3l of air and the other 2.3l lol If only it was that simple.