: front end too low with Ground Control, need opinions please



Chirpin4th
05-25-13, 12:51 AM
I recently purchased this 05' V. The front end is sitting pretty low. From the ground to the fender is right at 26". I would like to bring it up at least another inch, but the spring perch is already maxed out. I took some measurements, and from the center of the bottom bolt on the strut, to the bottom of the threaded collar is about 8 1/2". Im just wondering if the collar is sitting too low on the strut?
I have never had these apart, so I don't know all that is involved. If anyone has any opinions, that would be great!

Or lmk if more information is needed.

Thanks for the help,

Jimmy

mackey
05-25-13, 02:40 AM
http://www.cadillacfaq.com/faq/answers/gcinstall/index.html

i'd check to see if anything is off from yours vs his. looks like his still has threads though i don't know how low his sits compared to yours.

FuzzyLogic
05-25-13, 07:45 AM
If the spring perch is maxed out, that means that the you have shorter springs installed than came with the kit. They're supposed to be 10"--you probably have 8" springs installed.

Chirpin4th
05-25-13, 08:23 AM
Mackey thanks, my next step will be to take the struts assembly apart and make sure everything matches up to the faq.

Fuzzy, that was my first thought. Here is a pic of the spring length. I believe it is compressed a bit.

rand49er
05-25-13, 09:02 AM
I thought sure that the springs were too short, too. Looks to be that 10" Fuzzy mentioned.

It's a long shot, but what size is your front tires? Tire pressure? Stock wheels or aftermarket?

FuzzyLogic
05-25-13, 09:05 AM
Mackey thanks, my next step will be to take the struts assembly apart and make sure everything matches up to the faq.

Fuzzy, that was my first thought. Here is a pic of the spring length. I believe it is compressed a bit.

That's odd. Definitely a standard Eibach spring. They don't sell 9" lengths, so it has to be a 10" spring. But you have weight off the wheels in that picture, meaning that it's still under 400-600 lbs of preload there. Can you clean up the spring enough to read the numbers printed on it? Also, if/when you replace the spring, you should remove the silver cap at the top of the shock body--the original installer should have done that. It can cause damage to the spring and squeaking/clunking that the driver can hear. Personally, I'd recommend replacing it with a Eibach 1000.250.0600 (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/eib-10002500600) (10", 2.50" inner diameter, 600 in-lbs rate). Keep in mind that whatever you do, your rear springs will need to be at least 50 in-lbs higher than your front springs to match.

Chirpin4th
05-25-13, 09:37 AM
I got a pic of that too. The front spring says 1000.250.0500. This car was originally owned by 2003rc51, then sold to a guy around the corner from me. I'm not sure his forum name. But he said he replaced the fronts once. He said he didn't notice the car sitting any lower after the swap. I'll check on that silver cap, when I pull it apart. Thanks!

----------

front wheels are 19" and tire pressure is at 33-35 atm.

Thanks for everyone's input

Chirpin4th
05-25-13, 09:44 AM
I don't hear any clunking or noises. I don't notice anything really wrong with the ride, but does anyone think the front struts could just be bad?

This is how the car sat at one time on this ground control. Like I said, I was told the struts were changed once.

Chirpin4th
05-25-13, 06:38 PM
I think I got it.. not positive tho. After staring at my suspension, and staring at the faq. I believe I may be missing an aluminum spacer between the top of the spring and the upper perch. If anyone has a complete part list of the ground control, I would love to see it. If not I guess I'll call them Tuesday, and see if it's something I cant order. I'm just not really sure that one spacer will make that big of a difference?
If anyone has any suggestions lmk.

If you look at the pic, you can see my spring is up against rubber, not metal.

thanks.

Chirpin4th
05-25-13, 06:46 PM
this pic is from the faq that Mackey posted. You can see that the spring is definitely not sitting on the same upper perch as mine. Now I just need to know what parts they are, and how to get them.
Or maybe it is somehow mounted on top... which would make it even lower! I guess I'll have to pull them apart. I would hate to dismantle them, just to find out I don't have the parts I need to put them together correctly.

FuzzyLogic
05-25-13, 06:46 PM
You're missing the upper spring perch. Looks like the person who put your Ground Control kit together didn't read the instructions. At all.

Edit: you're missing the silver thing on top:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/QuicksilverG4/DSC00402_zps08c5c4f4.jpg

Chirpin4th
05-25-13, 07:01 PM
Awesome! I'm just glad I got it figured out! thanks for everyone's input. Anyone have a couple of upper spring perch's for sale?

FuzzyLogic
05-25-13, 07:17 PM
Awesome! I'm just glad I got it figured out! thanks for everyone's input. Anyone have a couple of upper spring perch's for sale?

No. They don't break and there isn't an upgrade path, so your best bet is going to be something from a wrecked V on eBay or one of the plethora of GM parts stores online.

AAIIIC
05-25-13, 11:13 PM
No. They don't break and there isn't an upgrade path, so your best bet is going to be something from a wrecked V on eBay or one of the plethora of GM parts stores online.
I think he means the GC perch that you told him he's missing, not the bigass GM upper perch assembly.


Awesome! I'm just glad I got it figured out! thanks for everyone's input. Anyone have a couple of upper spring perch's for sale?
You should be able to source them from GC pretty inexpensively.

Chirpin4th
05-26-13, 12:09 AM
I think he means the GC perch that you told him he's missing, not the bigass GM upper perch assembly.


You should be able to source them from GC pretty inexpensively.

Exactly!

I'll give them a call on Tuesday. But first I'm going to take one side apart... maybe by some chance it was mounted above the factory upper strut mount. I don't know if there is room for it to be put on top. But at the same time, I'm having a hard time believing that little piece of aluminum is allowing my front end to have over a 4" drop just by being removed. I guess I'll find out. I hope its on there! And the guy I bought it from is certain there weren't any left over parts when he changed the front struts.

I'll keep this post updated.

Chirpin4th
05-26-13, 02:15 AM
K, now I'm really confused. Just got done pulling one side apart. LMK what if you guys see anything out of place. I'm not missing the upper perch, but maybe missing something else.

Thanks for looking

From left to right

top, bottom, top, spring/upper perch.

This is everything that was there.

thebigjimsho
05-26-13, 10:01 AM
I wish I was in front of my laptop instead of on mobile. But, if everything is there, the only explanation is that your threaded perch is too low. If someone mods their shock, the snap ring can be set lower.

Chirpin4th
05-26-13, 12:26 PM
I had thought about that big Jim. I'm also on my mobile, but in one of my first pics I have a measurement from center of the bottom mounting to the bottom of the threaded collar. Maybe someone can verify that number? I'm not sure how accurate decal placement is... But it looks very similar to the FAQ?

Thanks!

FuzzyLogic
05-26-13, 12:46 PM
I don't know why that piece is yellow, but that's the spring perch.

Chirpin4th
05-26-13, 12:46 PM
Unless these collars are just short? But I doubt that, because where they sit there is already good tension on the spring. This is very confusing.

Chirpin4th
05-26-13, 03:46 PM
Any1 have a measurement from the center of the bottom strut mount, to the bottom of the threaded collar?

FuzzyLogic
05-26-13, 03:47 PM
Unless these collars are just short? But I doubt that, because where they sit there is already good tension on the spring. This is very confusing.

A properly installed Ground Control kit with 10", 550-650 in-lb springs results in a collar position roughly 60% of the way down from the top.

AAIIIC
05-26-13, 04:58 PM
But you have weight off the wheels in that picture, meaning that it's still under 400-600 lbs of preload there.
Not that it really matters, but if it's a 10" 500# spring, it's got about 250# of preload on it (since it looks like he measured 9.5"). I've never measured any of my cars to see how much preload there actually is on the springs even when the suspension is unloaded.


Personally, I'd recommend replacing it with a Eibach 1000.250.0600 (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/eib-10002500600) (10", 2.50" inner diameter, 600 in-lbs rate).
All else being equal, that will only gain him about 0.35", which I don't think would be enough. Not to mention he may not want a higher spring rate.


Keep in mind that whatever you do, your rear springs will need to be at least 50 in-lbs higher than your front springs to match.
Depending, of course, on what he wants the handling balance to be. :) The factory thought front and rear spring rates being the same was OK.


But at the same time, I'm having a hard time believing that little piece of aluminum is allowing my front end to have over a 4" drop just by being removed.
I'm not sure if you're just exaggerating for effect, but you're nowhere near a 4" drop. I'm at about 26-3/4" from ground to fender lip (14" front center of wheel to fender lip, which is a more reliable measurement to use), and I'm only sitting about an inch lower than stock.

I can't really explain why your car is sitting so low. I do think it's weird, though, that the GC setup appears to put the spring load into the rubber bushing in the center of the front top mount. The stock springs use a bigass rubber perch (2nd from the left in this pic (http://www.submariner.org/thepno95/Pictures/CTS-V%20pics/Suspension%20and%20Chassis/KW%20coilovers/KW%20-%20stock%20front%20topmount.jpg) of my disassembled top mount) so that the spring rides on the big aluminum piece, not on the rubber center bushing. I don't have a pic of the stock setup assembled, but if you go to this Ebay listing (http://www.ebay.com/itm/05-07-Cadillac-CTS-CTS-V-Left-Hand-Front-Strut-/250938610654) you can see what I mean. The KW V3 coilovers have an upper spring perch that puts the spring load on that big aluminum piece, as you can see in this pic (http://www.submariner.org/thepno95/Pictures/CTS-V%20pics/Suspension%20and%20Chassis/KW%20coilovers/KW%20-%20front%20-%20labelled.jpg).

I think your quickest/cheapest fix would be to order a pair of these (http://www.jegs.com/i/Coleman-Racing-Products/193/ST-409-1/10002/-1). Those would go between the lower spring perch and the spring, so your 10" spring would effectively become an 11" spring. That would gain you 1" of threads on the collar, so you could raise the front end by an inch. If you wanted more than 1", they make taller spacers.

FuzzyLogic
05-26-13, 06:50 PM
Barring some kind of installation error (which it seems like this is), the only other possibility is that the springs have skewed massively away from their intended rate. That would be covered by Eibach's warranty, but I'm not sure how to go about proving it.

Chirpin4th
05-26-13, 09:35 PM
Yeah, I believe there is something wrong. I would really like to figure that out first. I'm just not sure what it is? I don't really think there is anything wrong with both front springs. Although that spacer would definitely help me out.

I did not measure the overall length, so I don't know if I'm at 60% or not. I've been working on the right side, maybe if I dismantle the left I'll see it from a different perspective? lol

Not really sure what to do next, other than call ground control on Tuesday. I have never contacted them before, so I'm not sure what kind of customer service they have when it comes to this sort of thing.

I'll search the net tonite, and see if I can find anything that might give me what I need.

I'm with fuzzy tho... I do believe something is missing, or installed wrong. I doesn't look like anything is broken. All the joints, and bushings look pretty good.

Again, thanks for everyone's input!

----------

My goal is to have the front fender about an 1" higher. I believe it will level out the car, and I'll have a better chance staying off the bump stops. And improve the wear on my struts and tires

Chirpin4th
05-27-13, 03:41 PM
Not that it really matters, but if it's a 10" 500# spring, it's got about 250# of preload on it (since it looks like he measured 9.5"). I've never measured any of my cars to see how much preload there actually is on the springs even when the suspension is unloaded.


All else being equal, that will only gain him about 0.35", which I don't think would be enough. Not to mention he may not want a higher spring rate.


Depending, of course, on what he wants the handling balance to be. :) The factory thought front and rear spring rates being the same was OK.


I'm not sure if you're just exaggerating for effect, but you're nowhere near a 4" drop. I'm at about 26-3/4" from ground to fender lip (14" front center of wheel to fender lip, which is a more reliable measurement to use), and I'm only sitting about an inch lower than stock.

I can't really explain why your car is sitting so low. I do think it's weird, though, that the GC setup appears to put the spring load into the rubber bushing in the center of the front top mount. The stock springs use a bigass rubber perch (2nd from the left in this pic (http://www.submariner.org/thepno95/Pictures/CTS-V%20pics/Suspension%20and%20Chassis/KW%20coilovers/KW%20-%20stock%20front%20topmount.jpg) of my disassembled top mount) so that the spring rides on the big aluminum piece, not on the rubber center bushing. I don't have a pic of the stock setup assembled, but if you go to this Ebay listing (http://www.ebay.com/itm/05-07-Cadillac-CTS-CTS-V-Left-Hand-Front-Strut-/250938610654) you can see what I mean. The KW V3 coilovers have an upper spring perch that puts the spring load on that big aluminum piece, as you can see in this pic (http://www.submariner.org/thepno95/Pictures/CTS-V%20pics/Suspension%20and%20Chassis/KW%20coilovers/KW%20-%20front%20-%20labelled.jpg).

I think your quickest/cheapest fix would be to order a pair of these (http://www.jegs.com/i/Coleman-Racing-Products/193/ST-409-1/10002/-1). Those would go between the lower spring perch and the spring, so your 10" spring would effectively become an 11" spring. That would gain you 1" of threads on the collar, so you could raise the front end by an inch. If you wanted more than 1", they make taller spacers.


Well, I still can't find any helpful information. I agree about the quickest/cheapest fix would be these. I'll be ordering a pair, to make due until I can find out what is going on. Thanks for the suggestion!

Again if I ever figure out what was wrong I will update this post!

As for the 4" drop. I just meant If I were to adjust it all the way down, I would have over a 4" drop. I do feel that I'm missing at least an 1", if not more.

Chirpin4th
05-27-13, 03:53 PM
double post

AAIIIC
05-27-13, 06:52 PM
A properly installed Ground Control kit with 10", 550-650 in-lb springs results in a collar position roughly 60% of the way down from the top.
I wonder if GC began using longer sleeves at some point? I went and looked at the FAQ install article and the author's spring perches were up towards the top of the sleeve.


As for the 4" drop. I just meant If I were to adjust it all the way down, I would have over a 4" drop. I do feel that I'm missing at least an 1", if not more.
Ah, got it.

Chirpin4th
05-27-13, 06:59 PM
U measured again after my springs settled. I'm at 25 1/2" to the fender. I think I'm going to order the 2" spacer.

Chirpin4th
05-28-13, 08:43 AM
I'm starting to second guess myself that that spacers will raise my front based on the preload I already have on the front springs. I have a feeling that I will just be compressing the springs another 2" but not raising the car. Am I over thinking this? Or could the overall length of the strut be off?

AAIIIC
05-28-13, 09:46 AM
Yes, you're over thinking this. Unless someone modified OEM struts to reduce their range of travel (highly unlikely), those struts are designed to normally be sitting 1.5-2" higher than where yours are sitting now. Raising the spring perch will raise the car.

Chirpin4th
05-28-13, 10:07 AM
I guess I'll find out for sure when they get here. It just seems funny that I can compress the spring with no load on the front suspension?

FuzzyLogic
05-28-13, 11:36 AM
If your endlinks are set correctly, you will have some preload on the springs.

Chirpin4th
05-28-13, 04:45 PM
Yeah, you guys are right. If the strut itself had been any longer I wouldn't have been able to get it back in place by myself. I stuck a 1/2" breaker bar in the center of the wheel hub and stood on it, while working the strut assembly back in.

Chirpin4th
06-08-13, 10:20 PM
Just saying thanks! Those spacers worked perfect, I now have more than enough adjustment on the height. And I got some good practice at taking them apart. I'll need it since I'm pretty sure both front struts are on their way out. Pretty sure I could do 25 min a corner, with no air. Not too bad for a rooky.

Btw, that was my first time ordering from JEGS. They are pretty awesome. They are open real late, (maybe 24 hrs) and when you make an order you get a tracking number though email. And my parts where here in 5 days.

thebigjimsho
06-11-13, 03:41 PM
Yeah, Jegs. I placed an order for a set of Mickey Thompsons to mount on Z06 wheels for my V2. They had the best price and gave me a confirmation number.

At the end of the week, still no MTs. Called back and they had no record. Gave them my tracking number. Still no record. My card was never charged but I was deeply disturbed that my order became vaporware.

I never reordered or ordered from anywhere else.

Chirpin4th
06-11-13, 07:26 PM
That's no good. I ordered a trans mount from rev shift 2 days before I ordered the spacers. I hope they
are on their way.

Chirpin4th
06-15-13, 02:43 PM
Rev shift sent me a tracking number... After getting underneath the car for an oil change I noticed that it already has a poly trans mount. I assumed it didn't because I have to do the 4th to reverse trick to get it to engage smoothly. I'm also having a hard time downshifting to 3rd. I wonder what could be causing this?

darkman
06-15-13, 03:27 PM
Rev shift sent me a tracking number... After getting underneath the car for an oil change I noticed that it already has a poly trans mount. I assumed it didn't because I have to do the 4th to reverse trick to get it to engage smoothly. I'm also having a hard time downshifting to 3rd. I wonder what could be causing this?

The first item on the troubleshooting chart for any gear shifting problem is to flush and bleed the clutch hydraulic system.

Chirpin4th
06-16-13, 02:55 PM
thanks! when I bought it the reservoir was empty. I have filled it 3 times, now it stays full. I will do a flush/fill and see what happens. Time to bust out the mity-vac. I should prolly install in the ls7 clutch/flywheel that's been sitting out of the car for the past 3-4 years.