: Anyone here have pull at Cadillac? We want REAL production numbers



neuronbob
05-17-13, 08:51 AM
There have been multiple threads on this forum over the five years of 2G V production asking about production numbers. GM has not been in any hurry to release them.

However, with production coming to a close afer some number made for the 2014 model year, many of us are becoming more curious. For example, I am interested in how many 6MT V wagons were made overall, broken down by year and color, given this is the V model that will be most collectible in the future. Aside: Of course, I daily drive mine so mine will be "driver quality" in 20 years at auction....I didn't buy it to LOOK at it, or as an investment, after all!

It would be great if someone with actual pull at GM or Cadillac could "do a solid" for the V community to find this information out....that is, if it doesn't take "enhanced interrogation techniques" to get it. We have been asking for years for this information, but I think the V community should start to put some real effort into this, especially with production closing out pretty soon.

I'm thinking of cross-posting this on the Corvette boards as they seem to have production information in spades over there, and writing my GM district rep.

I fail to understand why V production numbers are such a state secret. C'mon, GM!

Jinx
05-17-13, 11:43 AM
I doubt we'll get quite that level of breakdown, but I'd at least like to see the same kind of breakdown that Corvette gets. They list total production of each model and total production of each option at the end of each model year. Heck, even such a breakdown over the generation's run would be interesting.

That wouldn't tell us how many manual V wagons there are, or how many mocha CTS4 coupes, but we'd have a much better idea of what's what than today's guessing.

Random84
05-17-13, 12:14 PM
Agreed.

Perhaps a phonecall to someone at corporate could - at the least - get us unofficial numbers. The info is out there, I just don't know why it isn't released?

Tgonyaw
05-17-13, 12:14 PM
I agree with the 2 previous posts. The vette numbers were printed every year in the BLACK BOOK. I was told a couple of years ago that book will not be printed because all the numbers are on-line now. I would enjoy what ever break down could be printed for the CTS-V.

neuronbob
05-17-13, 01:35 PM
Thanks for the replies.

Even basic information about how may V sedans, wagons, and coupes were made would be welcome.

In my dream world, I would know exactly how many 2013 OBM 6MT V wagons with roof were produced, and my sequence number in that list. However, I know I'll likely never see that level of detail.

What I can say is that the 2G V (and probably the 1G V too, more so) is a singular vehicle in American cardom. There will likely never be another quite like it and I'm happy to have owned not one, but two.

theamcguy
05-17-13, 07:40 PM
I hope we get some progress on this.

GM-4-LIFE
05-17-13, 07:47 PM
I have said this before and am saying it again now...good luck getting this info out of GM. They have never released concrete numbers on the V series line.

Gman1023
05-17-13, 10:02 PM
Thanks for the replies.

Even basic information about how may V sedans, wagons, and coupes were made would be welcome.

In my dream world, I would know exactly how many 2013 OBM 6MT V wagons with roof were produced, and my sequence number in that list. However, I know I'll likely never see that level of detail.

What I can say is that the 2G V (and probably the 1G V too, more so) is a singular vehicle in American cardom. There will likely never be another quite like it and I'm happy to have owned not one, but two.

This level of detail certainly should be possible. Tools like Compnine offer it for every other GM car out there. You can punch in the VIN on a 1997 Buick and find how many were made with your color, interior, trim, and pinstripe in the same production week. There is no reason why the same cannot be done for the V-series.

As others have indicated, GM has the information, why is it such a secret?

GMX322V S/C
05-17-13, 11:48 PM
I have said this before and am saying it again now...good luck getting this info out of GM. They have never released concrete numbers on the V series line.
Yup, typically mixed in with CTS numbers overall...

MReiland
05-18-13, 10:05 AM
Yup, typically mixed in with CTS numbers overall... A few years ago when I worked there I had the numbers, the exact numbers. I posted them and removed them after I was contacted by marketing. Knowing these numbers is essentially a competitive advantage, it can tell competitors how much effort they need to put into providing a match for the CTSV and also whether this market for High Performance sedans is expanding or contracting. Essentially in the smaller niche vehicle markets I was told the numbers are an important part of the business case. I wouldn't expect to see anyone put them up even though LGR plant knows them exactly, and every model and option break down.

Jinx
05-18-13, 10:41 AM
Thank you, MReiland. That's an excellent point. If only a Cadillac rep had told us that, we might have saved a lot of grumbling. Okay, probably not, but it'd be nice anyway.

I would hope that, perhaps ten years hence, Cadillac could cough up the details for this generation, so that we might better preserve the Cadillac legacy.

In the meantime we should all consider ourselves part of the Cadillac Mystique. :)

.Jinx
my part is pending

HUGN*RDS
05-18-13, 11:55 AM
I see it as the less I know about it the more valuable my V becomes to me. The mystery is helping with resale IMO, and if I had to guess I would say from 09-14 they will have made 556 manual Vagons (1241 in auto). 2612 total coupes, and 3159 total sedans. I should get a prize if I'm close. If I had to guess about my guesses I would say I over estimated by ~100.
Sent from my Lumia 900 using Board Express

neuronbob
05-18-13, 01:01 PM
A few years ago when I worked there I had the numbers, the exact numbers. I posted them and removed them after I was contacted by marketing. Knowing these numbers is essentially a competitive advantage, it can tell competitors how much effort they need to put into providing a match for the CTSV and also whether this market for High Performance sedans is expanding or contracting. Essentially in the smaller niche vehicle markets I was told the numbers are an important part of the business case. I wouldn't expect to see anyone put them up even though LGR plant knows them exactly, and every model and option break down.

Have I told you that you are the man lately, Matt? Because you are. :thumbsup: Thank you for that information, even though it's not exactly good news for the cause.

The gist is, it really IS a "state secret". I'm sure that at some point after production is done for the V2 and competition matters less, some of the information will be released officially. Either that, or when Compnine finally places 2013 Cadillacs in its database, I'll get some information at least, about 2013s. In any case, I hope GM sees that its V customers at least want the information (just like Corvette owners do) and maybe they'll change their mind.

USAFRET
05-18-13, 01:33 PM
Interesting conversation, I was able to find out from the Corvette Museum that my 2007 AO Z06 was 1 of 55 that was produced with the COMP Grey wheels that were optional in 07.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/AFVETTE/07%20Z06%202LZ/Z06006-1.jpg

Guess GM isn't interest in keeping Corvette production facts - secret.

Random84
05-18-13, 03:02 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWtjjg40mVo

This video from MotorTrend suggests that only 447 CTSV Wagons were made "over a two year period" (I suspect 2010/2011). Given the first few years of a given model are typically the highest volume... it makes me suspect there will be less than 1500 in total Wagon production. I did not infer from the video that they were speaking specifically of manual V wagons - just all V Wagons produced (so manuals would be a fraction of that?). This number also happens to be pretty close to other metrics I've seen: ie Wagons are ~10-15% of total V production (<4K units a year), or <500 Wagons per year depending on your assumptions.

In either case, I think it's a safe bet to say there are going to be well under 2,000 total V wagons ever made for the US market given what we currently know. Manual wagons should be a rare bird indeed, regardless of color.

Jinx
05-18-13, 04:18 PM
I bet the V% of wagons is higher, and the stick% of Vwagons is higher too, in the twilight of production than in the beginning. Enthusiast nutjobs see the window closing and step up to get one before they're gone.

Or maybe I'm wrong and there really are just dozens of us.

I just think back to the ubiquity of the Vwagon on enthusiast blogs and I want to believe that more than a couple thousand people took action.

Random84
05-18-13, 04:31 PM
I bet the V% of wagons is higher, and the stick% of Vwagons is higher too, in the twilight of production than in the beginning. Enthusiast nutjobs see the window closing and step up to get one before they're gone.

Or maybe I'm wrong and there really are just dozens of us.

I just think back to the ubiquity of the Vwagon on enthusiast blogs and I want to believe that more than a couple thousand people took action.

Just like with the CorvetteForum (where EVERY car is going to have a roof that comes off, engines that explode, differentials that whine and 75% of the owners are semipro drivers) - these enthusiast forums really do represent a fractional minority of the Cadillac and V-owner majority. After all, if you looked at these forum(s), 70% of all V's would be heavily modded and 50% of production would be manual transmissions.

That's just not the case. In reality, the VAST majority of the Cadillac V owners never post on a forum (nor do they mod their cars). I've also noticed how many manual wagons there are, and how many Opulent Blue cars are posted up here as examples... the statistics that we know just don't match up.

As an example:

Total Production of the CTS-V for the 2009 model year was approximately 3,500 out of approximately 59,716 CTS model production.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_CTS-V

Interestingly, Cadillac was GM's fastest growing brand in the first quarter of 2013 - but overall CTS (including V) sales are down 43% annually relative to 04/2012! Cadillac overall shows growth - in the new models that came out over the past 1-2 years. (Even Corvette is down 30% year over year for the outgoing model - and their sales have slumped tremendously since the Recession in `08. The Z06 and ZR1 - most comparable to the CTSV's - are practically half the volume of early model sales!).

http://media.gm.com/content/dam/Media/gmcom/investor/2013/2013-April-Sales/Deliveries-Apr-2013.pdf

Jinx
05-18-13, 06:55 PM
What statistics do we know that don't match up? I'm talking about model/options mix changing toward the platform's twilight. There aren't any stats against that, because there aren't any stats -- that's why this thread exists. Do you think it's unreasonable to suggest that the performance fanatics / true believers / brand loyalists represent an increasing portion of dwindling late-cycle sales? Especially for products whose next-generation future is a big question-mark, i.e. you don't have a lot of wagon fans sitting on their money waiting for the new improved next-gen version.

Gman1023
05-18-13, 07:32 PM
I think it we very interesting to see how the introduction of the Coupe and Wagon affected the mix. I have a feeling that at least for 2011, there were at least as many coupes as sedans. Maybe it has since equalized, but I bet the numbers are close. The Vagon is still a peculiarity to the few nutjobs who are willing/able to jump in and buy it (myself included). However, I think we can glean some facts from the 2009 info that IS public. There's a very informative thread on the forum with a color/feature breakdown of the 2009 V's. About 15% had manuals and just over 50% had Recaros. It seems reasonable, at least to me, to think that those figures should carry across all years. At least for the Vagon guys it should be pretty easy to put together a 1 of 1 combination, even without knowing exact figures.

neuronbob
05-18-13, 08:07 PM
I am one of those V wagon nutjobs right along with you :) , and I was also one of those who saw the window of opportunity to drive/own one closing, so I jumped. I am we'll aware of the 2009 numbers, which were released after a forum member here asked Cadillac. I am also aware of the Motor Trend interview. I want official numbers.

Again, maybe Cadillac will change its mind eventually and make this info not so secret.

mpouls1
05-18-13, 08:18 PM
I see it as the less I know about it the more valuable my V becomes to me. The mystery is helping with resale IMO, and if I had to guess I would say from 09-14 they will have made 556 manual Vagons (1241 in auto). 2612 total coupes, and 3159 total sedans. I should get a prize if I'm close. If I had to guess about my guesses I would say I over estimated by ~100.
Sent from my Lumia 900 using Board Express

This. I would like to think that as the years pass if (and when) a V might be some variation of a collectible that this secrecy could be to its advantage.

Mine being an early '09 production I plan on keeping it. You never know.

quikag
05-20-13, 02:03 PM
Minor data point, but at the V8 Supercar race this weekend at COTA in Austin, the World Challenge CTS-V race cars were running and Cadillac had a promotional deal for a great price for a Cadillac V-series tent with food/drink, awesome covered seating right at the top of the hill at Turn 1. They also had special parking for V-series Cadillacs only. From what I could see there was around a hundred V cars there all parked together. Probably 80% of them were Gen 2 CTS-V rides. I'm sure some pictures will be posted soon.

In short, the 2nd gen CTS-V has been a good seller for GM.