: Anyone notice review models lack a sunroof?



M5eater
05-14-13, 08:14 PM
So there's a general notion if you will, that sun-roof less cars are better in some perceived way.

be it the idea that a giant hole in a major structural reinforcement is bad, or that there's an extra 50 lbs at the very worst spot possible in a car, what have you.

My last car I bought lacked such a feature, one that I thought would pay dividends in the end (because I could acutally fit my giant melon with a helmet inside the car) however I found myself missing it more than relishing the fact that it wasn't there.

Here's the kicker. In the many ATS ring video's wherein GM shows off how they've tuned the car perfectly. The car has a roof!

the question I propose is;
a) does anyone have any knowledge, or insight that there's a significant disadvantage in adding a roof?

Frankly I'm not certain I care anymore, The 1 month I need a helmet I think that next time I'll put up with cocking my head to the right in order to fit so that I can enjoy the other 29 days in an open-air car.

However, it does bring up a good topic of discussion. Has GM engineering enough structural rigidity into the car to make up for a hole, or is there an acutal measurable weight and rigitiy disadvantage.

My guess is no.

flycaster
05-14-13, 08:42 PM
Can't answer your questions, M5eater, but i will say that with the sunroof, one loses about 1 to 1.5" headroom. Could be a problem for tall folks if they don't lower their seats.

gohawks63
05-14-13, 09:24 PM
So there's a general notion if you will, that sun-roof less cars are better in some perceived way.

be it the idea that a giant hole in a major structural reinforcement is bad, or that there's an extra 50 lbs at the very worst spot possible in a car, what have you.

My last car I bought lacked such a feature, one that I thought would pay dividends in the end (because I could acutally fit my giant melon with a helmet inside the car) however I found myself missing it more than relishing the fact that it wasn't there.

Here's the kicker. In the many ATS ring video's wherein GM shows off how they've tuned the car perfectly. The car has a roof!

the question I propose is;
a) does anyone have any knowledge, or insight that there's a significant disadvantage in adding a roof?

Frankly I'm not certain I care anymore, The 1 month I need a helmet I think that next time I'll put up with cocking my head to the right in order to fit so that I can enjoy the other 29 days in an open-air car.

However, it does bring up a good topic of discussion. Has GM engineering enough structural rigidity into the car to make up for a hole, or is there an acutal measurable weight and rigitiy disadvantage.

My guess is no.

I really don't think it's a structural issue anymore. Think about the metal that is in between the roof rails. If you push down on it you can flex or dent it. Hardly strong enough to provide any structural benefits. The roof rails along with that A and C pillars are what is providing the support. Just look at the cowl shake that you get on a convertible. We have a Mustang that was designed from the outset to be a convertible. If you look underneath the car there are cross braces under the car, and the rocker panels are reinforced as well as the framing along the firewall. Yet you will still see cowl shake over rough roads or crossing rough railroad tracks. It's also heavier because of all that additional reinforcement.

I think the biggest gripe with the sunroof is the loss of headroom. I don't think the additional weight of the glass panel is THAT much of a penalty.

I am with you though, I will always have a sunroof, although for me personally I wish Cadillac would have thought through the sunroof on the CTS coupe. I don't understand why they couldn't have it lift over the roof.

cdp
05-14-13, 11:15 PM
I passed on the sunroof for the extra room, specifically in the back seat. Anyone of above average height sitting in the back seat has to tilt their head back to get behind the sunroof cavity. It's not comfortable. Since I was switching from a two-seater to a four door to be able to take more passengers, I decided to try not to make them too miserable.

Fraggy
05-15-13, 12:58 AM
I didn't really care either way. After my wife's sunroof "blew out" with our kid the backseat, I could care less to have one. Luckily the cover was shut or all that glass would have flown into his face and eyes. When I found a car, it was a premium with NO sunroof, I was sold.

rustybear3
05-15-13, 07:00 AM
I absolutely would NEVER get a car without a sunroof, and I for the life of me don't get the lack of headroom complaint. I'm 6' 2" and my wife 5' 10" and have no head room problems whatsoever getting in and out of the car....not once. You guys must be extremely long in the trunk, for I personally know other ATS owners that are above average in height and they have not noticed this so called problem. Now if you are 6' 4" or taller, yes, you're going to have problems with headroom in just about ANY car IMHO. Now if you have families, you really should go with either the XTS or the new CTS for backseat room. This ATS isn't really designed to be a family car; it's truly a sports car environment, which is just perfect for my wife and myself. Back seats are really just for the occasional passengers.

M5eater
05-15-13, 07:02 AM
I passed on the sunroof for the extra room, specifically in the back seat. Anyone of above average height sitting in the back seat has to tilt their head back to get behind the sunroof cavity. It's not comfortable. Since I was switching from a two-seater to a four door to be able to take more passengers, I decided to try not to make them too miserable.
in an ultraview I would agree, rear room is decreased, However, in these traditional upfront configurations, typically there's a point where the roof ends. IE there shouldn't be any head-room penalty in the ATS with a roof. I will admit I didn't specificly look to check though.


I absolutely would NEVER get a car without a sunroof, and I for the life of me don't get the lack of headroom complaint.
I'm 6' 2"-3" as well. I've never bumped my head on a roof before, but I will say I only have about 1-2" of room left. When I want to go play around, I need my helmet on(a simpson diamondback) which quickly takes up any slack and then suddenly, I need another 1-2" of room to be comfortable.

rustybear3
05-15-13, 07:18 AM
I'm 6' 2"-3" as well. I've never bumped my head on a roof before, but I will say I only have about 1-2" of room left. When I want to go play around, I need my helmet on(a simpson diamondback) which quickly takes up any slack and then suddenly, I need another 1-2" of room to be comfortable.

That's why you should have a sunroof and have it opened if your bouncing around taking the car through a workout; without a sunroof odds are you're bound to hit the roof regardless....

gohawks63
05-15-13, 10:41 AM
I absolutely would NEVER get a car without a sunroof.

I am the same way, it would be very difficult for me to pass on that option.

gfxbt
05-15-13, 11:05 AM
My ATS is my first car sans sunroof (the car on the lot had everything I wanted but sunroof, and I was just to antsy to get an ATS to order). I miss my sunroof. Other than the thoughts above (i.e., weight at the top of the car, lessened structural rigidity), I haven't heard any ATS-specific reasons to go sans sunroof.

Interestingly, when the 997 GT3RS was announced for the US, all cars were to have sunroofs. A bunch of people that pre-ordered were quite upset about this, and sent letters to Porsche in an attempt to persuade them to change their mind. Apparently it worked, and all US spec 997 GT3RSs are sans sunroof. The only reason I know of that they did this (other than weight and structural rigidity) was that Euro spec cars were all sans sunroof. If I were a betting man, I would bet the big reason for the request was to keep the US cars inline with the Euro cars, as I assume most of the 299 (if I am remembering correctly) US spec 997 GT3RS owners won't be tracking their cars.

SLA
05-15-13, 01:34 PM
Not having a sunroof is a major deal when you're 6'7" like me. The 2.5i non-sunroof loaner we had had a ton of headroom.

In the pursuit of performance, the least amount of weight is desirable. The sunroof and the assembly probably weigh ~50lbs. Not only do you have the weight alone, it is also at the very top of the car increasing the center of gravity. When I was searching for my M3, I could not find one of the highly desirable non-sunroof equipped cars in my price range, or on the right coast. The first mod I made when I bought mine was to put a racing seat in it. Someday I'll remove the sunroof assembly (and plug the hole) to gain another couple inches, because I still rub the roof very slightly with my helmet on.

Stevo Supremo
05-15-13, 01:42 PM
I didn't order the sunroof, I never use them anyways, my cobalt had one and I always had it shut lol, plus, this saved me what, $1000?

cdp
05-15-13, 02:37 PM
in an ultraview I would agree, rear room is decreased, However, in these traditional upfront configurations, typically there's a point where the roof ends. IE there shouldn't be any head-room penalty in the ATS with a roof. I will admit I didn't specificly look to check though.


I'm 6' 2"-3" as well. I've never bumped my head on a roof before, but I will say I only have about 1-2" of room left. When I want to go play around, I need my helmet on(a simpson diamondback) which quickly takes up any slack and then suddenly, I need another 1-2" of room to be comfortable.

I am 6'1" with a 34" inseam, so don't think I'm unusually long in the trunk. I did sit in the back seat, and I had to lean my head back uncomfortably to clear the sunroof cavity. Front seat room was OK with seat down low, but back seat was a problem. With no sunroof I have no problem having my 5'10" daughter sitting behind me, so have no need for a front wheel drive boat like the XTS, and the CTS was not available at the time. The alternative would have been to get yet another BMW, which I didn't need to do. I also don't really care about a sunroof, so it was a very easy decision for me.

M5eater
05-15-13, 05:41 PM
I am 6'1" with a 34" inseam, so don't think I'm unusually long in the trunk. I did sit in the back seat, and I had to lean my head back uncomfortably to clear the sunroof cavity. Front seat room was OK with seat down low, but back seat was a problem. With no sunroof I have no problem having my 5'10" daughter sitting behind me, so have no need for a front wheel drive boat like the XTS, and the CTS was not available at the time. The alternative would have been to get yet another BMW, which I didn't need to do. I also don't really care about a sunroof, so it was a very easy decision for me.

I'll defer to your comments.

thebigjimsho
05-15-13, 08:10 PM
No sunroof cars are for communists...

JSATS
05-16-13, 06:50 AM
My last two Audis had sunroofs and honestly my wife and I never used them. I'll bet I opened the roof on my last Audi two times in three years. I don't see any sunroofs in my futur cars unless I have no choice.

huna
05-16-13, 09:04 AM
My last two Audis had sunroofs and honestly my wife and I never used them. I'll bet I opened the roof on my last Audi two times in three years. I don't see any sunroofs in my futur cars unless I have no choice.

Same here.

thebigjimsho
05-16-13, 08:27 PM
Fascist pigs.

RemaxAl
05-17-13, 12:10 AM
I have never understood the purpose of a sunroof. Completely pointless in my opinion. My ATS has one, I hate the noise it makes when it's opened plus I live in Canada so we can only open the it 3-4 months of the year.

AL

gohawks63
05-17-13, 12:38 AM
I have never understood the purpose of a sunroof. Completely pointless in my opinion. My ATS has one, I hate the noise it makes when it's opened plus I live in Canada so we can only open the it 3-4 months of the year.

AL

The point is to open it up and get air and sun. Hardly pointless.

thebigjimsho
05-17-13, 10:45 AM
I have never understood the purpose of a sunroof. Completely pointless in my opinion. My ATS has one, I hate the noise it makes when it's opened plus I live in Canada so we can only open the it 3-4 months of the year.

ALGo back to your igloo, Count Dracula...

M5eater
05-17-13, 10:56 AM
I have never understood the purpose of a sunroof. Completely pointless in my opinion. My ATS has one, I hate the noise it makes when it's opened plus I live in Canada so we can only open the it 3-4 months of the year.

AL

Clearly, your brain has failed you. Mr. abbey-normal.

thebigjimsho
05-17-13, 11:17 AM
Moonroofs are also great for fall night cruising. Temps in the 40s and 50s, roof open, heat on low glancing up at the stars as you cruise through the country-side...

73JPS
05-17-13, 01:56 PM
... I live in Canada so we can only open the it 3-4 months of the year.

AL

Geez Al, do you live in Goose Bay or something? I'll use mine any time it's warm and sunny, good from April at the latest to October at the earliest, and any time outside of that if it's warm. And yeah, I love it open at night when it's cool out: the winds are usually light then, and at speeds below 50 mph this is a very nice quiet roof (if it's not too windy).

RemaxAl
05-17-13, 05:28 PM
Tough crowd! Ok I love a sunr00f!

rustybear3
05-17-13, 05:32 PM
I have never understood the purpose of a sunroof. Completely pointless in my opinion. My ATS has one, I hate the noise it makes when it's opened plus I live in Canada so we can only open the it 3-4 months of the year.

AL

How do you feel about the windows that go up and down....pointless also? ...lol....seriously, I just wish they made an ATS Convertible...first in line.

JSATS
05-17-13, 10:01 PM
If I want air and sun I'll sit on my back deck in the daytime with a cold one in my hand. If I want to look at the moon and stars I'l sit on that same deck at night with a cold one in my hand. I don't need any sun or need to look at the moon and stars when I'm driving my ATS. I like to turn on the air and listen to music when I'm driving. I don't need to hear the wind blowing and dust flying around my car because I have that dumbass roof open.

73JPS
05-17-13, 10:11 PM
Tough crowd! Ok I love a sunr00f!

Ehhhxcellent. Proof indeed that bullying has political value! :kick:

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If I want air and sun I'll sit on my back deck in the daytime with a cold one in my hand. If I want to look at the moon and stars I'l sit on that same deck at night with a cold one in my hand. I don't need any sun or need to look at the moon and stars when I'm driving my ATS. I like to turn on the air and listen to music when I'm driving. I don't need to hear the wind blowing and dust flying around my car because I have that dumbass roof open.

Clearly you have not yet been beaten enough :thepan: . BTW, if you move to the Caribbean, there is no reason why you cannot enjoy the drink in your hand whilst driving with the moon and stars above you: so get a life, and an open roof! :sunnynana:

RemaxAl
05-17-13, 11:34 PM
Think about it. For $1200 you get a 2 square foot hole in your car roof. That creates noise, could leak, has dust penetration and not to even mention the down pour that will surely hit the one time you leave it open. If you like it cool, just think there a useless option. Want a rag top buy a rag. Even the t-tops in the '80s made more sense. Sort of like able bodied people driving a 3 wheeled motor bike.

JSATS
05-18-13, 04:55 AM
How do you feel about the windows that go up and down....pointless also? ...lol....seriously, I just wish they made an ATS Convertible...first in line.

The only reason I can see a use for the windows going up and down is for going through toll booths on the highway. Now that I have easy-pass that reason is mute. Another reason is when my wife rips one I may have to open the window for fresh air. I guess if the windows didn't open then I would just open the door and push her out!:)

gohawks63
05-18-13, 06:34 AM
Think about it. For $1200 you get a 2 square foot hole in your car roof. That creates noise, could leak, has dust penetration and not to even mention the down pour that will surely hit the one time you leave it open. If you like it cool, just think there a useless option. Want a rag top buy a rag. Even the t-tops in the '80s made more sense. Sort of like able bodied people driving a 3 wheeled motor bike.

Um... Really? That statement was so ridiculous that I can only surmise that you were trying to be inflammatory.

My last 11 cars have all had factory sunroofs and not one of the have ever leaked or given me a problem. EVER.

The only sunroof that is of questionable value is the one on my '12 CTS coupe that only vents, but does not open by design. I almost didn't get it for that reason, but I wanted the extra light in the cabin. The cost was also half of what a fully functional moonroof goes for.

Those T-tops you mentioned were terrible! They leaked, squeaked and were prone to being stolen. When moon-roofs went from being afterthoughts, nothing more than holes cut into a roof after production to fully integrated designs with rain gutters and channels, they became much more reliable.

Occasionally you will hear of issues like what you see with the 2nd gen CTS when that was introduced, with issues like noise and clogged drain holes causing leaks, but that was a newer full glass roof and I believe those issues were eventually resolved.

Our BMW X5 has the full panoramic rood and we love it. Open it all the way and it's as close as you can get to a convertible while still having a roof.

As for convertibles, I have one... A Mustang that is strictly a summer car. It's great on a sunny day with the top down, but as an every day driver soft top convertibles with the top up are noisier (both wind and road noise), prone to vandalism from a teenager with a pocket knife and hardly weather tight. Go through a high pressure touchless car wash and you will know what I mean. There is much more that can go wrong with all the pumps and cables and when that top gets worn, cracked or damaged it can be replaced for ONLY $2,000 or so since they typically can't be repaired. The chassis of convertibles are less sturdy since the roof (a major structural component) is now missing. Modern day convertibles that are designed from the beginning to be drop tops are better, but all that extra bracing and structural reinforcement adds additional weight, and it's still not as strong as a car with a roof, even one that "has a hole cut in it". I still get some ever so slight cowl shake going over railroad tracks or some of our wonderful weather beaten Michigan roads.

As for hardtop convertibles, they improve on the noise, rigidity, and weather sealing aspects, but they are heavier and with the top down you lose any trunk space you may have.

Also consider that convertibles only come in two doors, if you need four doors, forget it.

As for that rainstorm you mentioned.... When driving on the highway at 70 mph and it starts to rain, is it really that strenuous to reach up and push the one-touch button and have the roof close by itself, where as in a convertible (or those old T-tops) you have to pull over to the side of the road, stop and wait the 20 or 30 seconds to raise the roof, and the merge back on to that 70 mph traffic in the rain.

Having said all that, there is nothing like driving with the top down on a beautiful day.

Our Mustang only gets driven about 3,500 - 4,000 miles a year and 98% of the time it is with the top down. In those other times I will drive my other cars that have holes in their roofs.

RemaxAl
05-18-13, 06:51 AM
Next!

rustybear3
05-18-13, 07:47 AM
Think about it. For $1200 you get a 2 square foot hole in your car roof. That creates noise, could leak, has dust penetration and not to even mention the down pour that will surely hit the one time you leave it open. If you like it cool, just think there a useless option. Want a rag top buy a rag. Even the t-tops in the '80s made more sense. Sort of like able bodied people driving a 3 wheeled motor bike.

Then WHY did you buy one with a sunroof if you dislike them so much....just to complain you have one? There are tons of ATS combinations without them....please don't tell me you didn't have a choice! That's like buying a sedan, then complain how worthless it is to have 4 doors rather than two.

thebigjimsho
05-18-13, 08:07 AM
If I want air and sun I'll sit on my back deck in the daytime with a cold one in my hand. If I want to look at the moon and stars I'l sit on that same deck at night with a cold one in my hand. I don't need any sun or need to look at the moon and stars when I'm driving my ATS. I like to turn on the air and listen to music when I'm driving. I don't need to hear the wind blowing and dust flying around my car because I have that dumbass roof open.

Oh, ok. You're one of those I'll-buy-my-car-as-an-appliance types...

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Think about it. For $1200 you get a 2 square foot hole in your car roof. That creates noise, could leak, has dust penetration and not to even mention the down pour that will surely hit the one time you leave it open. If you like it cool, just think there a useless option. Want a rag top buy a rag. Even the t-tops in the '80s made more sense. Sort of like able bodied people driving a 3 wheeled motor bike.

Because I can't afford to have all these different cars. So instead of an impractical convertible, I get moonroofs in my cars...

rustybear3
05-18-13, 08:25 AM
Because I can't afford to have all these different cars. So instead of an impractical convertible, I get moonroofs in my cars...

Plus, with a sunroof, as an added bonus you practically get the same benefit of a convertible in that, you can get that open air feeling without the Maintenance , expense plus the
hassle of putting a rag top up and down. All with a touch of a button! Half the fun of owning a sports car is having that open air experience.....

Chris Cornett
05-18-13, 08:29 AM
The roof is not structural at all. It is set on the roof rails with a laser guided vision robot and held there while it is spot welded in place by other robots

M5eater
05-18-13, 09:28 AM
The roof is not structural at all. It is set on the roof rails with a laser guided vision robot and held there while it is spot welded in place by other robots
Correct, however, typically there's a middle support beam that may need to be removed or replaced to make room for the runroof which needs to retract under the headliner.

And then there's also the consideration that you're adding weight at the worst possible spot in the car

Chris Cornett
05-18-13, 09:58 AM
Your right about the added weight. I cant remember if the ATS has a roof bow there or not. We prigrammed it a long time ago.

M5eater
05-18-13, 10:57 AM
Your right about the added weight. I cant remember if the ATS has a roof bow there or not. We prigrammed it a long time ago.

it's right where the roof needs to retract.
http://admin.totalcarscore.com/data/extensions_data/galleries/d/2/d/d/e/73//originals/2013-cadillac-ats-frame.jpg


I suspect simply by looking at where it's placed (right where the B-pillars are) that it's not moved, but I really have no idea.

RemaxAl
05-18-13, 04:19 PM
Make no mistake, I'm not complaining. Most folks just die for a sunroof, not me was my only point. Just never understood the sunroof concept is all. I bought the ATS with a sun roof. Money really wasn't an issue. I bought the ATS for the 2.0T and the handling/ride and comfort. Colors and options I don't deter me. I'm more of a driver I guess??

Hoosier Daddy
05-18-13, 06:27 PM
Also consider that convertibles only come in two doors, if you need four doors, forget it.
Um... Really? ;)

108649

108641

Not to mention that in the early days 4 door convertibles were some of the highest volume models.

gohawks63
05-18-13, 06:54 PM
Um... Really? ;)

<img src="http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=108649"/>

<img src="http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=108641"/>

Not to mention that in the early days 4 door convertibles were some of the highest volume models.

I guess I stand corrected. :). I was thinking more along the lines of cars.

As for the older cars, yeah, but I was talking about modern era convertibles.

rustybear3
05-18-13, 08:19 PM
How about this 4 door Convertible?.....lol....not a bad conversion job; shows how well these Cadillacs lend themselves to a convertible treatment :yup:


http://cadillac.imagehostinghosting.com/di-2013_cadillac_cts_convertible-6dbb1f88c4f3752caef7f410d5dd0cc5.jpgimage hosting website (http://cadillac.imagehostinghosting.com/)

JSATS
05-18-13, 11:20 PM
The way I look at it is if you like sun roofs or as many call them moon roofs then order one for your car and be happy. As for myself I see no need for them and prefere not having them. That doesn't make me right but it doesn't make me wrong either.

RemaxAl
05-19-13, 12:05 AM
Precisely JSATS! People on this forum seem to get there backs up over nothing???? Love the rag top pic.

Hoosier Daddy
05-19-13, 10:49 AM
Precisely JSATS! People on this forum seem to get there backs up over nothing???? Love the rag top pic.
You forget that unless someone buys the exact same car as you did, they are in effect saying you made a bad choice.

Since its VERY unlikely anyone bought a car exactly like mine, I just automatically punch everyone I meet in the face for diss'ing me.

thebigjimsho
05-19-13, 11:55 AM
You forget that unless someone buys the exact same car as you did, they are in effect saying you made a bad choice.

Since its VERY unlikely anyone bought a car exactly like mine, I just automatically punch everyone I meet in the face.

I like your style...

rustybear3
05-19-13, 07:43 PM
Precisely JSATS! People on this forum seem to get there backs up over nothing???? Love the rag top pic.

Nobody is getting their backs up over nothing....you're the one dissing sunroofs calling them pointless, even though you spent extra
bucks for one that you don't plan using....that's fine....money isn't an issue with you...but then you call it a "useless option"....others disagree and have the right to give reasons why.....it's nothing personal at all....we "luv" them; you don't...doesn't make anyone right or wrong....that's what makes forums fun......p.s. sunroofs rule! :rock:

marktanner
05-20-13, 12:43 AM
I love sun/moonroofs usually. I really liked the Ultraview in my CTS and CTS-V. That said, I did not get the roof in my ATS premium for three reasons. First, I found it to be really noisy, especially over 45 mph, and the noise was high pitched, which I found especially annoying. Second, this particular roof is pretty small, so it doesn't let in a lot of light. Third, rear headroom is severely compromised; lean just a bit forward and you hit the roof. Not to mention the added weight and complexity, or the money it costs. Fortunately, the car remains quiet with the driver's window open up to nearly freeway speeds, so fresh air isn't a problem. While I still miss a sunroof, I don't miss this particular one

thebigjimsho
05-20-13, 08:15 AM
I will say the Ultraview in my V took a lot of rear headroom. When I sat in the back of a V sedan at Monticello without one, it felt cavernous in comparison.

But the Ultraview was too good. And the girls loved it. More than any other part of the V...

RemaxAl
05-20-13, 10:29 AM
I was just looking at some after market parts. Has anyone tried the plastic wind deflectors for the sunroofs? That might solve some of the noise issues?

gohawks63
05-20-13, 10:49 AM
I was just looking at some after market parts. Has anyone tried the plastic wind deflectors for the sunroofs? That might solve some of the noise issues?

I had one on a Nissan Pathfinder we once had. It helped, but on a car I'm not sure I would do it. It looks like this bubble on the roof. It wasn't as noticeable in the SUV with the roof rails and such, but on a car I think it would mess up the lines.

Just my two cents.

rustybear3
05-20-13, 06:19 PM
I will say the Ultraview in my V took a lot of rear headroom. When I sat in the back of a V sedan at Monticello without one, it felt cavernous in comparison.

But the Ultraview was too good. And the girls loved it. More than any other part of the V...

I too like the ultra view, but if anything it is a noiser type sunroof than the smaller one in the ATS.....but then again, I find neither one at all obtrusive in the noise factor; certainly quieter than opening any window for fresh air. IMHO if one gets either a V or an ATS, rear passenger room is secondary; if that's important get a XTS ol' man's car. A sports car without a sunroof is pointless for me.