: Reverse Grind, Again ???



SevillianSTS
05-12-13, 08:36 PM
So my new trans is almost a year old. Original was grinding going into Reverse (unless I went to 1st gear, first) and it was popping out of reverse occasionally.

So I just noticed that UNLESS I go into 1st gear first it is starting to grind again as I push the shifter into Reverse.

Clutch fluid was flushed in the fall before putting it away for storage, it is still clean and up to level.

It did not do this until just recently. I always roll into my neighborhood in 3rd and stop in front of my house and then go straight into Reverse.

Any thoughts before I take it back in. I have a One year warranty on the trans which is about to expire. ???

darkman
05-12-13, 08:44 PM
Since it is under warranty, I would get it to the shop to get the condition documented. Are there any other shifting problems?

Cadillac Cust Svc
05-12-13, 09:13 PM
So my new trans is almost a year old. Original was grinding going into Reverse (unless I went to 1st gear, first) and it was popping out of reverse occasionally.

So I just noticed that UNLESS I go into 1st gear first it is starting to grind again as I push the shifter into Reverse.

Clutch fluid was flushed in the fall before putting it away for storage, it is still clean and up to level.

It did not do this until just recently. I always roll into my neighborhood in 3rd and stop in front of my house and then go straight into Reverse.

Any thoughts before I take it back in. I have a One year warranty on the trans which is about to expire. ???

Hello SevillianSTS,

I understand how you want opinions from other forum members and they do offer some great advice! I do recommend taking your vehicle into the dealership to discuss your concern, especially since the trans is still under warranty.

Regards,

Laura M.
Cadillac Customer Service

SevillianSTS
05-12-13, 09:32 PM
Since it is under warranty, I would get it to the shop to get the condition documented. Are there any other shifting problems?

Nope, shifts great, especially with the revshift trans-mount block in there.

SevillianSTS
05-13-13, 12:53 PM
I'll be taking it in this afternoon. If the Reverse syncro is confirmed to be bad, is there a "better" part I could purchase and have them replace rather than another stock one. Reading into this it seems this is a common failure.

odthetruth
05-13-13, 02:58 PM
If I get reverse grind, I go from 4th to reverse. Try it in the meantime until you take it in. Seems to work best for me. 4th to R

SevillianSTS
05-13-13, 06:46 PM
I took it to the dealer, he did agree that it does grind as I stated. They are busy right now so they started the paperwork and I will call later and get it looked at next week.
Now that I have experimented with it, I noticed: It grinds anytime I am in Neutral, press in the clutch, and then go to reverse. If I go to ANY forward gear first leave the clutch in then I can get to reverse without a problem. I also noticed when it grinds the speedometer goes up for a second. Service guy said something along the lines of the "----" shaft not being stopped when I'm going into R.

Any other suggestions ? Service guy was kind of puzzled too.

odthetruth
05-13-13, 06:51 PM
I took it to the dealer, he did agree that it does grind as I stated. They are busy right now so they started the paperwork and I will call later and get it looked at next week.
Now that I have experimented with it, I noticed: It grinds anytime I am in Neutral, press in the clutch, and then go to reverse. If I go to ANY forward gear first leave the clutch in then I can get to reverse without a problem. I also noticed when it grinds the speedometer goes up for a second. Service guy said something along the lines of the "----" shaft not being stopped when I'm going into R.

Any other suggestions ? Service guy was kind of puzzled too.

Dragging pressure plate?

SevillianSTS
05-13-13, 07:14 PM
I just had the rear end up in the air. When I put it into gear the wheels turn "maybe a few inches" then they stop. I tried revving it up while in gear and clutch in, and the wheels do not turn. I did notice that if I pushed the clutch in and waited 5 to 10 seconds then go into gear the wheels turned less to almost not at all.

If it was the pressure plate wouldn't that affect all gears ?

darkman
05-13-13, 07:21 PM
The service manual literature on this subject is pretty clear - the transmission should pass two tests. First, with the motor running, you should be able to shift from neutral to any gear without the car lurching or the gear grinding. If you cannot do this, you first look at clutch operation (clutch drag) and then to the transmission. Second, with the motor not running you should be able to move from any gear to any other gear. If this test fails, you look first at the shift linkage.

SevillianSTS
05-13-13, 07:39 PM
Hmmm, I get to step 10 ? As far as step 2: it goes from N to all forward gears just fine. N to R = Grind.

Guess we'll see what they say when they tear into it.

odthetruth
05-13-13, 10:30 PM
The service manual literature on this subject is pretty clear - the transmission should pass two tests. First, with the motor running, you should be able to shift from neutral to any gear without the car lurching or the gear grinding. If you cannot do this, you first look at clutch operation (clutch drag) and then to the transmission. Second, with the motor not running you should be able to move from any gear to any other gear. If this test fails, you look first at the shift linkage.

I have to ask you Darkman, are you pulling these off Alldata? You always come thru in a 'clutch' with them. lol

SevillianSTS
05-18-13, 08:50 PM
Hey Darkman, I saw you talking about trans issues on another thread...

Mine is going in on Tuesday for the official diagnosis; but he even seemed stumped to why mine was only grinding when going into Reverse.

Do you think I am dealing with a clutch issue ? I don't think so, but I'm trying to arm myself with all the info I can before I leave it with them.

All forward gears are nice and smooth once warmed up. When in the air as I push into gear the wheels turn "maybe a few inches" and then stop, and remain stopped even if I revved it up.
If I go from N press in clutch into R I will get grind every time; UNLESS I press in the clutch and wait 10-15 seconds then it will go into R smoothly. Seems to me I should not have to "wait" to go into gear.
And other option is to go into another forward gear before Reverse and all is smooth.

darkman
05-18-13, 09:25 PM
Hey Darkman, I saw you talking about trans issues on another thread...

Mine is going in on Tuesday for the official diagnosis; but he even seemed stumped to why mine was only grinding when going into Reverse.

Do you think I am dealing with a clutch issue ? I don't think so, but I'm trying to arm myself with all the info I can before I leave it with them.

All forward gears are nice and smooth once warmed up. When in the air as I push into gear the wheels turn "maybe a few inches" and then stop, and remain stopped even if I revved it up.
If I go from N press in clutch into R I will get grind every time; UNLESS I press in the clutch and wait 10-15 seconds then it will go into R smoothly. Seems to me I should not have to "wait" to go into gear.
And other option is to go into another forward gear before Reverse and all is smooth.

Based on those details, my first guess would be the reverse gear synchronizer.

Cadillac Cust Svc
05-18-13, 09:50 PM
Hey Darkman, I saw you talking about trans issues on another thread...

Mine is going in on Tuesday for the official diagnosis; but he even seemed stumped to why mine was only grinding when going into Reverse.

Do you think I am dealing with a clutch issue ? I don't think so, but I'm trying to arm myself with all the info I can before I leave it with them.

All forward gears are nice and smooth once warmed up. When in the air as I push into gear the wheels turn "maybe a few inches" and then stop, and remain stopped even if I revved it up.
If I go from N press in clutch into R I will get grind every time; UNLESS I press in the clutch and wait 10-15 seconds then it will go into R smoothly. Seems to me I should not have to "wait" to go into gear.
And other option is to go into another forward gear before Reverse and all is smooth.

Hello SevillianSTS,

I hope your diagnosis goes well and they are able to help resolve your vehicle concern. Please update us next week after your visit.

Regards,

Laura M.
Cadillac Customer Service

SevillianSTS
05-22-13, 10:38 AM
So they asked what fluid I have in the trans, I have Amsoil Torque Drive in it. They want me to pay to put the GM crap back in it. Ridiculous.... Then they want me to drive it for a few days to see if it gets better. I understand they gotta follow protocol and confirm it has the proper fluid... but this is frustraighting, I am using Amsoils preferred fluid for the transmission.... and the GM stuff is crap, when the trans was new I broke it in on their fluid and after less than 2000 miles the GM fluid that came out was already starting to discolor.

darkman
05-22-13, 12:41 PM
So they asked what fluid I have in the trans, I have Amsoil Torque Drive in it. They want me to pay to put the GM crap back in it. Ridiculous.... Then they want me to drive it for a few days to see if it gets better. I understand they gotta follow protocol and confirm it has the proper fluid... but this is frustraighting, I am using Amsoils preferred fluid for the transmission.... and the GM stuff is crap, when the trans was new I broke it in on their fluid and after less than 2000 miles the GM fluid that came out was already starting to discolor.

I would let them do what they think they must do. However, if they get silly and attempt to blame the Amsoil for the problem demand to see the Service Manual troubleshooting chart. It says to change the fluid if it is the wrong TYPE, and says nothing about the fluid being the wrong BRAND. In my opinion that means you can pick any brand that meets the specification (in this case probably DEXIII), but you run in trouble if (and only if) you substitute non-spec fluids.

SevillianSTS
05-22-13, 06:54 PM
I've got it back, was not going to pay them $80 to change the fluid. He said he thinks it is possible that the Amsoil Torque Drive may be "too slippery" :rant2: uhhh NO.
He is going to get me "Dexron III" to put in it. They didn't say it directly but pretty much tried saying the Torque Drive is not Dexron III. I said Dexron III is a "rating" not a specific fluid.
He gave me a funnel to strain the fluid in it... we'll see what comes out.

darkman
05-22-13, 07:39 PM
I've got it back, was not going to pay them $80 to change the fluid. He said he thinks it is possible that the Amsoil Torque Drive may be "too slippery" :rant2: uhhh NO.
He is going to get me "Dexron III" to put in it. They didn't say it directly but pretty much tried saying the Torque Drive is not Dexron III. I said Dexron III is a "rating" not a specific fluid.
He gave me a funnel to strain the fluid in it... we'll see what comes out.

Dexron III is a GM licensing program, but it carries with it a very specific set of specifications dealing with the required properties for a lubricant to qualify for the license. My owner's manual says: Manual Transmission: DEXRON III Automatic Transmission Fluid, Look for "Approved for the H-Specification" on the label." The one problem may be Amsoil's corporate policy. Although their fluids meet various specifications, they have historically refused to pay the licensing fees to obtain the license.

The "too slippery" argument is an urban myth. It is the "argument of last resort" used by anti-synthetic oil advocates when they can produce no scientific data to demonstrate that non-synthetic petroleum based oils perform as well. The fact is synthetic lubricants do have different properties than petroleum-based oils, but an inherently different friction coefficient is not among them.

SevillianSTS
05-22-13, 08:37 PM
Darkman,
What do you think of these ? It is NOT magnetic either, so it is brass.

http://i1093.photobucket.com/albums/i424/SevillianSTS/100_1240.jpg

http://i1093.photobucket.com/albums/i424/SevillianSTS/100_1243.jpg

Seemed to me that it had a "metallic" smell to it. Also a little darker than I expected.

Is this normal wear or is this the beginning of a bigger problem ?

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Original Transmission was replaced last year at 76000 miles.

Broke in new transmission; drove 500 miles like grandma.

Changed fluid at 78500 miles to Amsoil Torque Drive

Today it has 80300 miles with the N to R = Grind


4,000 miles ??? I always make sure the oil is up to temp before getting the RPM's up at all. Did I get a bad trans from the start ?

darkman
05-22-13, 08:55 PM
Automatic transmission fluid, which is what Dexron III really is, contains a lot of detergent and is designed to keep contaminates in solution rather than on components. Consequently, when it is run in a manual transmission, which is constantly shedding material, it can get dirty looking pretty quick.

The Tremec T-56 has a number of components that are either non-magnetic metal, or coated with non-magnetic metal. Additionally, the friction surface on the synchronizers is a carbon fiber material.

The only way I know to get a read on the contents of the drained oil is to submit it to someone like Blackstone Laboratories. They not only analyze the contents they also provide typical levels of various metal, non-metal, and chemical contaminants based on their data base. This allows you to spot whether your contamination is atypical and can help identify which internal components are wearing more quickly.

SevillianSTS
05-22-13, 09:02 PM
Ya, I sent an oil sample to them a year or so back and they said my motor was doing good.

Any thoughts about the bigger chunks in the strainer ?

darkman
05-22-13, 09:13 PM
Ya, I sent an oil sample to them a year or so back and they said my motor was doing good.

Any thoughts about the bigger chunks in the strainer ?

Well it does not look good. I would expect to see that on the first drain of a new transmission but not on the second drain, particularly after so few miles.

SevillianSTS
05-23-13, 09:06 PM
So I have the standard GM Dexron III trans fluid in per dealer request.

Is it just me or is it possible that the shifter movement feels more gritty or notchy with the GM fluid in vs. the Amsoil Torque Drive ?

Also, why is it that I can shift into Reverse smoothly if I press in the clutch and wait 10-15 seconds before shifting ? What slows the shaft down while the clutch is in ? Still a syncro issue ?

I'll be taking it back in to let them know there is no difference with the new fluid.

darkman
05-23-13, 10:05 PM
Also, why is it that I can shift into Reverse smoothly if I press in the clutch and wait 10-15 seconds before shifting ? What slows the shaft down while the clutch is in ? Still a syncro issue ?


The synchronizers function like "brakes" and so does holding the clutch for some length of time. That is why a transmission with failing synchronizers will pass the "static" shifting test (motor off), but will fail the "dynamic" shifting test (motor running) as described in the Service Manual trouble shooting chart.

SevillianSTS
05-24-13, 08:54 AM
So what causes the Reverse syncro to fail within 4,000 miles ? What are the possibilities ? It's not like Reverse ever sees any sort of spirited driving.

darkman
05-24-13, 09:12 AM
So what causes the Reverse syncro to fail within 4,000 miles ? What are the possibilities ? It's not like Reverse ever sees any sort of spirited driving.

I am not sure, but I do know that in 2006 Tremec switched to carbon fiber material for the friction surface of the reverse synchronizer. The trade off with carbon fiber is that although it does not break it does wear. In any event, any manufactured part can be defective even when good quality control is in place.

SevillianSTS
05-24-13, 09:24 PM
Darkman, are you able to calculate a fair estimate how much I would expect to pay to have my clutch replaced if they are already taking the Trans out for the Reverse problem ?
Thinking about going monster stage 2.

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estimate I meant "hours"

darkman
05-24-13, 11:28 PM
The standard flat-rate allowance to remove and replace the transmission is 2.4 hours. The allowance to replace the clutch is 3.9 hours inclusive of 0.2 hours each for the pilot bearing and the flywheel. Presumably the difference of 1.5 hours (3.9 - 2.4) is the incremental cost of the clutch change out.

(The allowance to remove, rebuild, and reinstall the Tremec is 9.3 hours.)

SevillianSTS
05-25-13, 01:15 AM
Monster Stage 2 Ordered, also ordered a Monster Remote Bleeder.

Tick Performance has Monster Clutches $150 off right now till Monday.

SevillianSTS
06-12-13, 01:28 PM
Well they said the reverse syncro was completely worn out; on a 4,000 mile tranny :confused: Has to be a manufacture defect

I guess they have like 2-k of parts on order.

Excited to try the new clutch out :)

SevillianSTS
06-20-13, 02:42 PM
So they said they had it all back together, reverse was fixed, but they said now it grinds in 3rd when driving. Is it possible that my master cylinder is related to this at all ? (being the slave has been replaced both times the trans was removed. He is taking the trans back down.

robojesus
06-20-13, 03:34 PM
I thought my slave was bad, as well... you can't really rule something like that out, but unless it's leaking it's pretty unlikely.

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The "too slippery" argument is an urban myth. It is the "argument of last resort" used by anti-synthetic oil advocates when they can produce no scientific data to demonstrate that non-synthetic petroleum based oils perform as well. The fact is synthetic lubricants do have different properties than petroleum-based oils, but an inherently different friction coefficient is not among them.

I actually disagree with you on this. It's not like the engineers at Tremec simply overlooked using synthetic lubes in the manual transmission, it's designed and built around the friction properties of ATF.

I've talked to The Gear Box (http://www.thegearbox.org/home.html) about it, and he told me to absolutely use dino-oil in the transmission, because of how it's engineered and designed. I had an issue with intermittent 5th gear grinding, and tried all the expensive designer oils (Royal Purple, Amsoil), and I talked to him about getting 5th gear only, and he told me to just put auto zone branded Dex3 in it before I did anything drastic, and sure enough, the grinding was gone after about 2 miles. This was a good 3-4 months ago.

darkman
06-20-13, 07:45 PM
So they said they had it all back together, reverse was fixed, but they said now it grinds in 3rd when driving. Is it possible that my master cylinder is related to this at all ? (being the slave has been replaced both times the trans was removed. He is taking the trans back down.

Yes, in theory the clutch master could have a problem. Your experience is reaffirming my disinclination to rebuild a T-56 myself.

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I actually disagree with you on this. It's not like the engineers at Tremec simply overlooked using synthetic lubes in the manual transmission, it's designed and built around the friction properties of ATF.

I've talked to The Gear Box (http://www.thegearbox.org/home.html) about it, and he told me to absolutely use dino-oil in the transmission, because of how it's engineered and designed. I had an issue with intermittent 5th gear grinding, and tried all the expensive designer oils (Royal Purple, Amsoil), and I talked to him about getting 5th gear only, and he told me to just put auto zone branded Dex3 in it before I did anything drastic, and sure enough, the grinding was gone after about 2 miles. This was a good 3-4 months ago.

Tremec's recommendation regarding lubricants is not based on the notion that synthetics have a different friction coefficient. It is rather, based on what is not known about their additive packages, which Tremec has not tested.

http://www.tremec.com/menu.php?m=110#Q3 (http://www.tremec.com/menu.php?m=110#Q3)
Q: What type of fluid does TREMEC recommended?
A: For all TKO 5-speed models, TREMEC recommends GM Synchromesh™ (GM Part # 12345349). For all other aftermarket models we recommend Dexron III ATF.

Q: Why use automatic transmission fluid in a manual gearbox?
A: Automatic transmission fluids provide the necessary protection and lubrication, while still allowing the synchronizer to function at its best.

Q: Why not use a synthetic fluid?
A: Some brands of synthetic fluid contain powerful detergents and additives that can prove harmful to your transmission's synchronizers. While many synthetic fluids perform very well, in most cases, we do not recommend their use. Furthermore, they may void your warranty. For peace of mind, remember that TREMEC conducts all of its OEM validation testing using conventional fluids without issue.

Q: Why not use gear oil in one of your transmissions?
A: A hypoid gear oil by design does not allow mechanical surfaces to make contact with one another. A synchronizer relies on friction (much like your car's brakes) to do its job. Thus, gear oil in a synchronized transmission can be a bad combination, potentially causing a variety of shift quality issues. Furthermore, many gear oils contain sulfur additives that can damage friction materials.

robojesus
06-21-13, 06:14 PM
i got you.

There's a guy on the forum somewhere who mixes gear oil with his ATF...